The icariin log

Hey Dath:

You know alot.

Monster maca is very pure - doesn't have a particularly strong smell and is easy to take.

My stomach has a lot of trouble with the gelatinized maca in DHTC.

Given I take alot less gelatinized than Monster I'd say gelatinized appears stronger. It could though that other stuff in DHTC is having an effect and also "feel" and actual test increase are two different things. I can "feel" DHTC even at 2 caps/day.

It is very likely the onset of Monster maca caused a jump in test, viz. acne and with light DHEA it gave a high test score.
 
I was going to order maca monster but I ended up ordering a pound of navitas naturals gelatinized maca for $22. Maca Monster is $33 a pound so I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth the extra money. I'm guessing it's not. Are you absolutely sure its the gelatinized maca in DTHC that caused your stomach problems?
 
Possibly not. I rarely if ever have had problems with any food, excluding enteric infection.

On an empty stomach even Monster caused problems - which is very rare. Gelatin maca in DTHC smells terrible and my stomach just isn't happy. Joining the dots there is a good chance its the maca but I can't be certain.
 
Stack I added Jack 3D to the stack.

Health I'm reaping the benefit of the stack now in terms of strength gains and endurance. I need to get much more serious about gym etc.. Smeaton_Yea's systematic gym approach looks good.

Diet I eased off my protein (lazy!). Chocolate flavoured PhD labs protein powder - yuk (excuses!). High veg, berries + cheese intake, ok meat, ok fish, nuts, oats, quinoa, seeds.

Summary Overall a strong stack: strength, drive, endurance and focus. Formestane is the best AI I've used - topical suits me. I expect a very high test level, but I could be wrong. The cortisol could knock the test level. I've not run fat-burners in previous logs.

Pity the log lost its focus when I had trouble with standard doses of DTHC.

My girl preferred me swamped in icariin. I prefer this stack.

Merry Christmas all. Thanks for checking the log. I'll wrap this around 20th Jan. Test level for the end of Jan.

************************************************************************
Next year (unlikely to log): "Legal" AX stack (MassFX/Lean Extreme/AdvanedPCT) | LG's pSARM/ their AI | Omega's T-force/ T911 | Full strength resveratrol of PP's Alpha Sustain and AI's Stoked.

I have most of the above inhouse. I'll need to super stack: a full reveratrol run stacked over one stack and check estrogen levels before and after (1HP's comment). If okay I'll resume background resveratrol. I don't like T911 BTW but I've 1.5 bottles of it.

I'll be doing "light gain" cycles between each stack so the above will take all year.

Few more emails and we are done.

Its been fun.
 
Some info from the study:

In estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer cells, resveratrol acted as an estrogen agonist in the absence of the endogenous estrogen, 17beta-estradiol, but acted as an estrogen antagonist in the presence of 17beta-estradiol (20, 21). At present, it appears that resveratrol has the potential to act as an estrogen agonist or antagonist depending on such factors as cell type, estrogen receptor isoform (ER alpha or ER beta), and the presence of endogenous estrogens (17).
Click to expand...
 
You're on. It'll be March though before I can start this and end of March - mid-April until I get the results.

I'll check my estradiol (E2) levels

Plan
Jan 20th check test and E2 levels (after a long AI run without resveratrol)
Cycle 0 - 6 weeks (nothing heavy)
PCT 4 weeks Natty booster/AI/SA/Stoked check test and E2 levels
Week 8 PCT stop Stoked

I'll log the test and E2 results.

Call it the E2 log?
 
I'd like to see the tests. Resveratrol is something that fascinates myself.

Well see in the future if it keeps living up to its hype. So far it has looks really promising as it is published in the Medical literature update on Nov. 23 2009. A Doctor at the gym gave me a copy of it because we talk about health stuff.
 
Over Christmas I toned down on supps as I went overseas. I didn't fancy explaining to customs (border guards) that the strong smelling powder I was carrying which originated from South American (maca) was an ancient libido supplement used by the Incas.

Stack: 4 pumps formestane, low Long Jack, low Activate, mega Bs mega Cs, Super Cissus, Recreate. I was not taking Cycle Support (another powder).

Result? Formestane is potent: if anything the drive, focus and intensity both in and out of the gym were stronger.

Evidence? Blood pressure. Historically I have low blood pressure. I forget the exact readings.
70/ 120(?) and lower (?)
At present :
88/138 and 90/140.

Both readings were shortly after I'd taken Recreate explaining part of the elevation.

I've got better definition, some gains ... and feel good, feel very good.

The stack is back to normal EXCEPT I'm running full dose Activate and discontining DTHC. I can't settle on DTHC and its making the log messy.

I'll detox using algae extract. The algae detox is supposed to be potent - it chelates the nutrients out of you.
 
All pistons moving, one more week -> saliva samples and the logs done.

Quality ginseng is such a useful supplement to have in the bag BTW. For non-stim energy boost that stuff hits the spot every time without fail.
 
I'd better begin concluding:

Test boosting is very general term which means increasing test, as well as increasing focus/energy/drive, as well as boosting libido.

Classically increase test -> increased DHT -> increases focus/energy/drive/hunt -> increases libido.

The final test sample may prove this, but to date that hasn't happened. Different stacks did different things.
Boosting libido - icariin hands down. Like dating a girl for the first time type libido. Phyto-test (PP) was stacked however and could have been involved.
Boosting energy - 6-year old ginseng hands down. The IOC bans it - not surprised.
Boosting test - maca made a strong showing although I'd just started a DHEA cycle
Boosting test - AX stack Hyperdrolx2 and MassFX gave teenage levels of test
Appetite suppressant - maca not expected but can't deny it

What surprised me is that libido and test levels can be so independant.

Basically though they've all got their use.

I predict that formestane/Activate/maca will give the biggest test boost. My feeling is that the current stack is driven largely by formestane. If so then as a single product it would be the best combination of the above. We'll see.

Oh after the test samples I'll taper formestane at 2 pumps per day as recommended. Thats my criticism of HX2 - you run the bottle but they don't tell you to taper, same with T911. Thats not a good idea 'cause test levels should crash.
 
That's good to know about the tapering. I never hear of it with those type of products. What kind of Ginseng are you talking about? There are so many different kinds.
 
6-year old root. There isn't a lot of variation here, its either $$$ or it isn't.

The other stuff I use I get from the local Korean store, Kangon Chulwon 1-19 is the licensed brand number. Its not bad and its cheaper, but whole root is better. Great part of a regular stack.

Tapering - if there ain't much test boost (I mean real test) then there isn't a problem but when you're really hitting over the odds from a medical perspective its crazy to go into crash. Guys do this with PHs ... but the idea is that the crash is cushioned into the PCT.
 
If I go to a place like iherb.com I would just look for "6 year old ginseng? I'm familiar with siberian, american, korean and red panax ginseng in capsule form usually a standardized extract.
 
I very much doubt it but I could be wrong.

The test is simple - take it and if it feels like bolts of electricity are moving through you in 20 mins - you've hit the jackpot.

If it feels like a "body stim", i.e. energizing your body without making you jumpy but not energizing the mind (like a stim). Thats good stock.

If it does zip forget it. Its either instant or it ain't.
 
Its a good question because that is what I wanted to address at the beginning of the log. In the event the cycles would have been too complex to do this.

Personally I liked the tincture for an energy boost - but the bottle didn't last long: $15 for 2 weeks. The libido kicked in heavily around week 3 (1 week after the tincture ran out) and at the end of the cycle the boost was very (too) heavy. However I was taking large quantities of icariin.

I used both 50% and standard icariin both from Nutra.

I felt it was the length of the cycle that gave increased levels of libido boost not necessarily the stock. Because I was stacking I couldn't be sure. I guess 50% icariin must give a bigger libido boost that standard.

Conclusion: because the libido boost takes several weeks to kick in (for me anyway) its difficult to compare different stock. Tincture was good and easy to take but its impossible to say whether it boosted libido. Nutra's stuff certainly did boost libido.

Other points: I noticed a drop in the energy from icariin when the tincture ran out. It could be coincidence. It is said maca and icariin go well together. I don't know but icariin and ginseng give a synergistic energy effect.

Nutra now do 20% icariin as their standard stock.
 
I know the libido boost took about two weeks to stop after i discontinued.

I also started taking saw palmetto around that time as well.
 
Thanks saw palmetto - thats interesting. Its often hard to get away from saw palmetto - its in a lot of products.
 
saw palmetto is not a libido killer per say in my opinion. When I was taking icariin stuff was working much more instant. My libidio is still there just not immediate.

I am thinking it takes a bit longer to get things going in my expirence on saw3 palmetto and not a problem once they get going. verses on icariin I am an animal in the sack which is always a plus and helps my confidence knowing I can satisfy her at the drop of a hat.

so saw palmetto could have decreased it a bit. or the coming off of icariin or both

I think saw palmetto does have its place. I like to use it very sparingly though .
 
Okay log done and I'm in detox. Chlorella, grape seed extract and mixed anti-oxidants. I'm winding in Cycle Support to the detox and upping chlorella. Chlorella can have a dramatic effect on some people - nothing dramatic noticed so far.

I've taken 2 saliva samples and will take another test in a few weeks.

4 pumps of formestane over 1 month was too strong and I stopped for a few days: the energy levels were too high, elevated blood pressure etc... Energy levels did drop, but not crash. I feel good and composed. I'll taper at 2 pumps from tomorrow.

NOTE: ZRT test samples. DO NOT ever post your requisition forms to ZRT without using registered post. I did and its creating trouble. They can't find them and I can't prove they have got them. It is creating a real headache.
 
The next log is the "E2 log". The design is not finalized. I will run formestane and Sustain Alpha together and see if SA causes my estrogen levels to jump, i.e. they are cancelling each other out. They might however act syngistically and cause a massive test boost. Post-detox I need to go for (some) gains. The E2 log is PCT. I don't do methylated PH BTW.

Final test samples to post in due course.
 
... delay in sample processing *sigh* Could easily be 3 weeks. Too complex to go into but there ain't much I can do..
 
The only thing to note to date is that formestane without question promotes the "alpha male" feel, for me this means being "energised". I noticed when tapering formestane: first I quit it for 3 days - "energy" returned to base line, then dosed a 4 pumps - highly energised, missed two days - returned to base line, then dosed at 2 pumps - highly energised. Think there is a common factor here.

I'm gonna take another test sample with formestane "on taper" and I've now started 3 caps Stoked. Cycle starts 10th ... behind schedule.

The saliva test results ... gee... unreal - anyway it could be a month before I get the results. I think describing the bureacracy would be boring for log, so I'll refrain. Apologies - there isn't much I can do.
 
Matthias, I am glad you are learning. You have come a long way in this log.

I do know some Ai's can cause joint issues. (example 6-oxo is not known to, atd is if dosed too high)

Do you notice any dry joints from estrogen suppression from the formestane? I do not know how much formestane causes estrogen to go down.
 
Great comment. ATD... I need to watch for that in the very near future (1T), thanks.

Formestane possibly a little bit in a knee(s) but not anything I noticed as a concern. I have weaker knee due to a dislocation years ago and that might be a little aggravated. I've been on full dose formestane for a month and basically there hasn't been any sides really, the only thing I noticed is stopping it - energy levels drop.

Joint (knee) issues could be a concern for long term use though, but not a 4 week PCT. I'll be running it again.

I have taken a saliva sample for E2 ... so we can check if formestane is suppressing estrogen, but don't hold our breath for the results.
 
Realized a contradiction ... was going to do a cycle ADT and then formestane PCT.

So I'm on an AI now, do a cycle on another AI then PCT with an AI :think:

Formestane will have caused some shutdown ... I'll need a few (?) weeks break before starting ADT (1T, PP) and questions whether running formestane PCT is a good idea. Geee.. all this waiting is boring.

I'm running with this idea 2 week break, cycle, PCT don't start the AI for 2 weeks, just use PP test recovery stack, then formestane. The idea is to check what happens when high dose resveratrol runs with an AI.

Any I'll run heavy duty high quality ginseng in the "blank" two weeks, along with a bit of maca. Its closest feel I can get to the formestane "energy".
 
Update: Formestane last taper tomorrow then its done. Tapering once every third day 1/2 dose.

Pivotal This is where all the knowledge on adaptogens is put to use. I needed to boost energy without formestane and get through a small amount of shutdown from 1+ month of formestane.

Current stack per day:

Maca - 3 teaspoons
Ginseng (6 year stock) - 3/4 gram
Ginseng extract - quite alot
Muira puama. - 1 gram
Rhodiola/ashgandwana - 2 caps/1cap

The adaptogens are coping very well indeed in the absence of formestane and certainly taking up the slack that formestane leaves. Given the amount of ginseng ... :dunno: Just started Rhodiola/ashgandwana, always cautious of Rhodiola but Poison convinced me otherwise.
Muira puama is very underrated. It does seem to produce a cortisol response, so has its drawback PCT, but it sure gives energy and libido. Got it from Nutra $10.. bargin, well worth trying and it tastes okay too. Taking ginseng (6 year old) and Muira P. together is ... :slomo:.

Detox:

Chlorella - 4 caps (Complimentary Prescriptions - this is a company BTW. I'd never heard of it either)
MycoGreen - 2 caps (Millenium Tech.). This stuff is amazing
Pomegranite - 4 caps (Holland and Barrett)
Antioxidant defense - 2 caps (Jarrow Formulas)
Grape Seed Extract - 2 caps (Paradise [Herbs?])
Vit C - 2 grams

The detox has gone well is going very well indeed. I feel a newer version of "me". Chlorella is well known for clearing heavy metal toxicity. I probably have metal toxins from mercury fillings (teeth) and living and working in city smog. I'm gonna stay in detox. 'cause I like the way this is going. MycoGreen BTW is very underrated product and I need to discuss it with MST.

End of detox. is a strategic time to take a test and E2 sample. This in theory should be background levels - in theory - will be interesting whether thats the case or whether detox. has boosted test.
 
matthias7 said:
Update: Formestane last taper tomorrow then its done. Tapering once every third day 1/2 dose.

Pivotal This is where all the knowledge on adaptogens is put to use. I needed to boost energy without formestane and get through a small amount of shutdown from 1+ month of formestane.

Current stack per day:

Maca - 3 teaspoons
Ginseng (6 year stock) - 3/4 gram
Ginseng extract - quite alot
Muira puama. - 1 gram
Rhodiola/ashgandwana - 2 caps/1cap

The adaptogens are coping very well indeed in the absence of formestane and certainly taking up the slack that formestane leaves. Given the amount of ginseng ... :dunno: Just started Rhodiola/ashgandwana, always cautious of Rhodiola but Poison convinced me otherwise.
Muira puama is very underrated. It does seem to produce a cortisol response, so has its drawback PCT, but it sure gives energy and libido. Got it from Nutra $10.. bargin, well worth trying and it tastes okay too. Taking ginseng (6 year old) and Muira P. together is ... :slomo:.

Detox:

Chlorella - 4 caps (Complimentary Prescriptions - this is a company BTW. I'd never heard of it either)
MycoGreen - 2 caps (Millenium Tech.). This stuff is amazing
Pomegranite - 4 caps (Holland and Barrett)
Antioxidant defense - 2 caps (Jarrow Formulas)
Grape Seed Extract - 2 caps (Paradise [Herbs?])
Vit C - 2 grams

The detox has gone well is going very well indeed. I feel a newer version of "me". Chlorella is well known for clearing heavy metal toxicity. I probably have metal toxins from mercury fillings (teeth) and living and working in city smog. I'm gonna stay in detox. 'cause I like the way this is going. MycoGreen BTW is very underrated product and I need to discuss it with MST.

End of detox. is a strategic time to take a test and E2 sample. This in theory should be background levels - in theory - will be interesting whether thats the case or whether detox. has boosted test.
Click to expand...

matthias I am with you on cycling supplements taking breaks from some and using others at other times. i think that is the best way for the benefits of the supplements than when the body becomes routinely accustomed switching supplements for other benefits.

MycoGreen is amazing I felt healthy when using it
 
Thanks Smeton Y.

Correction
PM from Andrew: ADT isn't in 1T. It was in the old AX 3AD (alas no longer). 1-DHEA so I am told is in 1T, I presume that is otherwise known as 1-Androsterone. 1T doesn't seem heavily anabolic but is respected. With thanks again to Andrew for explaining this.

Update
Still in the detox. mode and love it. Under formestane stamina and gym energy are so much better without question, using "reps to failure" workout.

Final test sample will include an "all natural" test result of detox., adaptogen, dead lift and squat. Cycle ends in 2 weeks - Chorella and ginseng stock will be exhausted by then. I can't wait for that result.
 
Log officially ends here. Took last test sample today - measures the effects of high dose antioxidants on test levels - and started a (delayed) 1T cycle.

I've just got the test sample kits in to check the final samples. I've slightly messed up on a sample for the E2 log, but it should be recoverable.

Final post will be the final test results and concluding comments.

Wow long log. Dropped 12lbs in weight and kept it off, better definition and didn't get below 15% bf BTW, but you win some and lose some. Should gain a few pounds then cut PCT.
 
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