Testosterone replacement to Testosterone Restoration

[James496]

Hey,

Interesting subject here. Has anyone had success transitioning from TRT to Enclomiphene Citrate monotherapy? I've just come off of TRT (transdermal test) after 6 years, and on to currently 25mg ED of Enclomiphene Citrate dosed am.

Day 6 off of TRT and on Enclomiphene Citrate and so far things have been going very well. No immediate crash making the jump, no loss of energy/vitality, mood has been great & did some training yesterday and strength holding strong too.

Testicles started responding as early as day 3. My hope is that Enclomiphene will enable me to maintain similar levels to the transdermal test (15-18nmol/l).

Anticipating an increase in SHBG, it was always quite low which may explain that why even on TRT I never felt 100%.

Good hopes from Enclomiphene Citrate....

 

[Beau]

If possible, I am sure many of us would like to follow a log, if you are willing to do one.

 

[Renew1]

I'm curious... Did you decide to stop TRT?
If so, why?

 

[James496]

I wouldn't have the time to do a full on log, but I'd definitely be willing to let you know how I'm doing each week & provide some insight into bloods when I have them done.

To be honest it was time to get off of TRT and if I'm completely honest it was never the holy grail I thought it was. It provided something of a physical edge, although nothing I dare say I couldn't do with natural levels. Besides that's not the point:- well being was just mediocre. Then there were constant battles with an increased hemoglobin.

Enclomiphene seems to have less side effects to Clomid and seems superior overall.

I'll be running it for quite a while at this dose, and if all good I can scale it back to every other day at a later time.

There has definitely been a response so far, so my LH must have made a reappearance which is a very good sign.

 

[James496]

I'm curious... Did you decide to stop TRT?
If so, why?

To be honest, I fell into the trap of thinking it'd fix everything and put me on top when in reality, it didn't. At least for me. Plus my circumstances have changed and I now need to consider my fertility whilst I still can.

There's DEFINITELY been a psychological aspect at play, thinking that I couldn't survive (not literally) without TRT and that it would harm my gym work.

The reality is I probably had a decent endocrine system all along that could have been ramped up a bit more, well being was never great on TRT and the doses were always based around the hemoglobin. It was a pain.

Blood work speaks for itself, and although it's very early days I'm very interested to see what Enclomiphene can do.

 

[Smont]

To be honest, I fell into the trap of thinking it'd fix everything and put me on top when in reality, it didn't. At least for me. Plus my circumstances have changed and I now need to consider my fertility whilst I still can.

There's DEFINITELY been a psychological aspect at play, thinking that I couldn't survive (not literally) without TRT and that it would harm my gym work.

The reality is I probably had a decent endocrine system all along that could have been ramped up a bit more, well being was never great on TRT and the doses were always based around the hemoglobin. It was a pain.

Blood work speaks for itself, and although it's very early days I'm very interested to see what Enclomiphene can do.

That's because test gel sucks. You need injectable testosterone and a better Doctor who knows what there doing. I don't believe enclomiphene is going to be any different then the test gel when it comes to how you feel, energy, well being. If anything I'd imagine it's gonna be worse. Your basically going into pct permenately. Enclomiphene is better then clomid but not nearly as good as testosterone

 

[Smont]

I think you should be using hcg too if you plan on getting your natural testosterone production back

 

[James496]

That's because test gel sucks. You need injectable testosterone and a better Doctor who knows what there doing. I don't believe enclomiphene is going to be any different then the test gel when it comes to how you feel, energy, well being. If anything I'd imagine it's gonna be worse. Your basically going into pct permenately. Enclomiphene is better then clomid but not nearly as good as testosterone

Valid points, and time will tell & yes I definitely couldn't imagine it competing against testosterone in that context. But to consider planning for a family, I do need to be mindful of fertility & also injections would never be viable for me with intermittent secondary polycythemia. My TRT experience was definitely not smooth and as you say the gel isn't great anyway.

The best I can hope for is my natural test has restarted and the Enclomiphene will mitigate some of the harsher symptoms of low test by bringing it up a bit more. If I'm honest though, nearly a week without TRT and I'm feeling fine. No symptoms at all. That's after an abrupt end I'd add (not the best move but I don't do anything by halves)

 

[Smont]

Valid points, and time will tell & yes I definitely couldn't imagine it competing against testosterone in that context. But to consider planning for a family, I do need to be mindful of fertility & also injections would never be viable for me with intermittent secondary polycythemia. My TRT experience was definitely not smooth and as you say the gel isn't great anyway.

The best I can hope for is my natural test has restarted and the Enclomiphene will mitigate some of the harsher symptoms of low test by bringing it up a bit more. If I'm honest though, nearly a week without TRT and I'm feeling fine. No symptoms at all. That's after an abrupt end I'd add (not the best move but I don't do anything by halves)

Your natural testosterone hasn't restarted if you only have been off testogel for 6 days. The testogel is still in your system until about today. So the next week or 2 is going to tell you hoe your feeling on the enclomiphene. I highly suggest you get some hcg

 

[James496]

I'll definitely pop back on and update on progress

 

[Smont]

I'll definitely pop back on and update on progress

Are you doing bloodwork

 

[James496]

Are you doing bloodwork

Yeah, was considering around the 4-6 week point. As a side note, the last lot of bloods I had done were based on a lower dosing of the gel and my LH was already showing signs of trying to restablish, previously it was completely blocked. That was a few months back.

Testicles definitely showing signs of life already, so I guess my pituitary must be attempting to signal.

In no immediate rush to start a family, that's further on, so from a fertility point of view I have plenty of time.

What I'm hoping from the Enclomiphene is that it brings my LH back strongly and my natural test comes back stronger than before the TRT. SHBG was low when starting TRT, again that may have been the problem all along.

 

[James496]

Hey hey.

Decided to come on here and post an update, as it is now over a week since I stopped my TRT and hopped straight onto Enclomiphene Citrate, and today was a training day.

Brief overview to recap: Long time TRT patient (on transdermal Testogel at 80 to 60mg per day for 6 years). Some improvement in some attributes during TRT, mostly physical. No real improvements to mental well being or overall vitality. Abrupt end to TRT after 6 years with no tapering (even though I did that I don't encourage others to).

Treatment plan going forward: Enclomiphene Citrate, 25mg every day as a monotherapy dosed once between 7-8am. Bloodwork in 6 weeks, and if stable, Enclomiphene to be dosed every other day at 25mg or 12mg depending.

Goal: My goal of using Enclomiphene Citrate is for support, to start a longer term management off of TRT, with the goal of restarting my natural Testosterone, bringing back a stronger LH (LH was for the most part completely blocked on TRT) and promoting optimal rebalancing of hormone ratios, naturally. Also hoping for an increase in SHBG.

Side effects from Enclomiphene Citrate: Absolutely none so far.

Life off of TRT so far: No crash to report, no withdrawals to report, overall feeling pretty damn good.

Mental attributes: The past few days, my mood has been undeniably good. Even on TRT I'd always have what I can only describe as a mental fog. Interestingly, for the first time in months I feel as if my mental fog has lifted. I'm not an expert, but perhaps this is something to do with a shift in Estrogen? Feeling calm, focused and dialled in to my day. Sleep is good. Good sense of well being today.

Libido: Absolutely fine. Nothing more, nothing less.

Physical: Symptoms of low testosterone not present. Energy is good, strength is very good (if I didn't know any different it would be like nothing has changed). Today I was focusing on pulling movements as normal and all of my compounds are dialled in. No change to training intensity or performance.

Recovery: Early days, but certainly not experiencing the flat battery / hot buzz type fatigue I'd expect with plummeting Testosterone levels. Especially after a session like that.

Testicles: Definitely waking up.

To conclude, it's still VERY early days. Whilst I'd never use Enclomiphene Citrate as a performance enhancer (it probably wouldn't shine here anyway) as support the crash I was expecting after abruptly stopping my TRT just hasn't happened yet, and hopefully won't. I have high hopes that Enclomiphene Citrate will assist me with my goals of making TRT a distant memory.

I will bring a comprehensive update later next week approx 2 weeks after stopping my TRT and on Enclomiphene Citrate.

 

[James496]

Hi

I know it's only been a day or so since my last post, but just another quick update. Woke up yesterday expecting to feel like I'd been hit by a bulldozer after a gruelling session on Friday, not so.

One of the things TRT did for me was made training recovery a breeze.

Honestly guys, whatever it's doing already, this stuff is legit.

This is also the 3rd day I've woken up without brain fog, mood has been fantastic & my testicles are feeling fuller by the day. Notable improvement to well being & vitality even compared to TRT.

VERY encouraging signs so far & if this is what the road to recovery & normality feels like then, bring it on.

Done more research on Enclomiphene Citrate the past few days. General consensus is that as a performance enhancer is not really going to do much if anything for most.

But if you're a genuine candidate for it, well, I'm not making this up

Still no side effects to report at 25mg ED.

 

[James496]

Hey All

Not sure I'll have time tomorrow to write this, so decided to write it tonight.

It has now been two weeks since I abruptly stopped my TRT (80mg > 60mg Testogel every day) after 6 years of use

I hopped straight onto Enclomiphene Citrate liquid, dosing every day at 25mg between 7-8am.

So far, I have been extremely impressed with Enclomiphene Citrate. It has mitigated any side effects or symptoms that one might experience coming off of TRT after so long.

At the current time of writing this, there are still absolutely no side effects to report from the Enclomiphene, and no symptoms of low testosterone present.

I have seen consistent increases in sense of well being & vitality from the first few days of usage. Mood, Libido, Energy have all been great.

Notably, the brain fog I experienced (even on TRT) appears to have resolved.

Testicles are feeling much fuller, interestingly I appear to have grown more chest hair than usual this past two weeks.

From a training perspective, there has been no loss of strength or muscle density, all of my compounds are still as dialled in as they were on TRT.

Possible slight reduction in ab fat this past two weeks despite not really doing much cardio?


Without blood work currently, on a biological level it's difficult to determine what might be happening. However, I absolutely have no doubts in regards to the legitimacy of the Enclomiphene I'm using, as the results are speaking for themselves....

 

[kelechi]

You imply you want to start a family. Curious as to whether you've had a sperm test. You may be feeling "fuller", but really you need to be checking on health of your swimmers to make sure motility, morphology and sperm count are on par

 

[James496]

You imply you want to start a family. Curious as to whether you've had a sperm test. You may be feeling "fuller", but really you need to be checking on health of your swimmers to make sure motility, morphology and sperm count are on par

Very valid points. To be honest, I haven't yet but that is definitely on my list of to do's. Under no illusion to the fact that sperm production will probably take a lot longer to recover. As I said in an earlier post, LH & FSH were 0 at one point recently, so definitely not implying a quick fix to fertility. Also, unfortunately I never got that checked before starting the TRT.

Last time I spoke to my Dr he said fertility may take at least 8 months to recover. So I think it's really important to put it out there that Enclomiphene is definitely not a quick fix in that department.

The main focus at this moment in time is to restart my Testosterone naturally and I feel that process is definitely under way

 

[BillD]

Are you taking anything for increased estrogen? Assuming the Enclomiphene is going to raise it.

 

[James496]

Are you taking anything for increased estrogen? Assuming the Enclomiphene is going to raise it.

Nothing else at the current moment in time. Purely Enclomiphene as a monotherapy. I'm not qualified to talk about the scientific aspects of it & can only go by how I feel,. However I really do not have anything negative to say about my experience with it so far.

I do remember once having to abruptly stop my TRT due to a high RBC and after week 2 I felt like death. This is definitely doing something without a doubt.

 

[BillD]

Nothing else at the current moment in time. Purely Enclomiphene as a monotherapy. I'm not qualified to talk about the scientific aspects of it & can only go by how I feel,. However I really do not have anything negative to say about my experience with it so far.

I do remember once having to abruptly stop my TRT due to a high RBC and after week 2 I felt like death. This is definitely doing something without a doubt.

I’ll be curious if your estrogen shoots up

 

[James496]

I’ll be curious if your estrogen shoots up

Having blood work in around 4 weeks so I guess time will tell. However, according to research Enclomiphene appears to be a superior drug to Clomiphene and has a much better side effect profile (less estrogen related sides, emotional disturbances etc).

 

[danielmc]

The advantage of enclomiphene is obviously that it does not suppress natural production of testosterone. It was never smart to shut down working testicles.

 

[KvanH]

Been following. Interested to see your blood test results. Keep the updates coming

It would be wise to have an AI on hand, if you don't have already. I did my last PCT with Enclo (solo) and at the end of it my TT was somewhere around 800 ng/dl and E2 was over the range.

 

[James496]

The advantage of enclomiphene is obviously that it does not suppress natural production of testosterone. It was never smart to shut down working testicles.

Absolutely. To be honest I think it was pretty pointless going on TRT. I never really felt great on it. Someone I spoke to said the first thing I should have done was to find out why my SHBG was low. Doctor said although TT was low at that point it was still in range. Free testosterone was always quite high on TRT.

 

[James496]

Been following. Interested to see your blood test results. Keep the updates coming

It would be wise to have an AI on hand, if you don't have already. I did my last PCT with Enclo (solo) and at the end of it my TT was somewhere around 800 ng/dl and E2 was over the range.

Thank you

Just focused on my journey to recovery now. Thank you for your suggestions and experience. Do you think something like Virtus will work? How are your bloods now & how long did you run Enclomiphene? Do you think it would be wise to run an AI now or after bloods?

 

[Jeremyk1]

The advantage of enclomiphene is obviously that it does not suppress natural production of testosterone. It was never smart to shut down working testicles.

Wtf? Why would you make a profile to post this garbage?

 

[Rad83]

Been following. Interested to see your blood test results. Keep the updates coming

It would be wise to have an AI on hand, if you don't have already. I did my last PCT with Enclo (solo) and at the end of it my TT was somewhere around 800 ng/dl and E2 was over the range.

Did you have major estrogen sides?
Did you run the AI,…if so which and dodge?

Thanx

 

[James496]

I did consider running a decent natural testosterone booster alongside the Enclomiphene, but that's just more money & since Enclomiphene is a drug I figured it would get to the point. However you now have me thinking about an AI

There appears to be some good looking products on paper that can help with AIs built in. Alpha gel is one of the newer ones. However I do know of someone who had very good results with Virtus.

 

[KvanH]

Thank you

Just focused on my journey to recovery now. Thank you for your suggestions and experience. Do you think something like Virtus will work? How are your bloods now & how long did you run Enclomiphene? Do you think it would be wise to run an AI now or after bloods?

Well, something like Exemestane would probably be the best choice in most cases, so that would be my 'official' suggestion. But I'm actually going to try adding Virtus to my next PCT with Enclo and see what the bloods say. I've had good experiences with Virtus before based on 'feels', but no bloodwork on Virtus to back that up.

I don't have follow up bloods after the last PCT. But previously my TT has dropped to 400 - 500 few months after a Nolva PCT and E2 pretty much to 'normal' range. I ran Enclo at 12.5 mg for 30 days, as my PCT. Then I had my planned blood draw pushed forward by 2 weeks and started Enclo again 5 days before the blood draw, to see how the Enclo treats me.

I would personally check bloods first, before adding in any AI. I would get an AI on hand ASAP and be ready to implement it, if you start experiencing high estro issues, or the blood work shows undesirably high E2.

 

[KvanH]

Did you have major estrogen sides?
Did you run the AI,…if so which and dodge?

Thanx

I didn't notice any high E2 symptoms and was quite surprised to see the test results. But I've never noticed estro related issues and am likely not good at sensing/realising estro being high (or low). IIRC, I didn't take any AI. Just discontinued the Enclo. Or maybe I took something mildish for a little while, can't remember.

 

[James496]

Well, something like Exemestane would probably be the best choice in most cases, so that would be my 'official' suggestion. But I'm actually going to try adding Virtus to my next PCT with Enclo and see what the bloods say. I've had good experiences with Virtus before based on 'feels', but no bloodwork on Virtus to back that up.

I don't have follow up bloods, after the last PCT. But previously my TT has dropped to 400 - 500 few months after a Nolva PCT and E2 pretty much to 'normal' range. I ran Enclo at 12.5 mg for 30 days, as my PCT. Then I had my planned blood draw pushed forward by 2 weeks and started Enclo again 5 days before the blood draw, to see how the Enclo treats me.

I would personally check bloods first, before adding in any AI. I would get an AI on hand ASAP and be ready to implement it, if you start experiencing high estro issues, or the blood work shows undesirably high E2.

Valuable advice, thank you

I think part of my optimism with the Enclomiphene is that coming off of the TRT I just haven't experienced the crash I was anticipating & as I said I've seen consistent increases in sense of well being which I guess was what I was hoping from the TRT itself. I don't feel as if my TRT was ever properly dialled in & no disrespect to my Dr but the management of it wasn't very good.

I think if properly managed with blood work, Enclomiphene is definitely proving itself to be a suitable alternative to TRT or at least recovery from. It's still early days so trying very hard to be realistic but so far excellent

 

[BillD]

I didn't notice any high E2 symptoms and was quite surprised to see the test results. But I've never noticed estro related issues and am likely not good at sensing/realising estro being high (or low). IIRC, I didn't take any AI. Just discontinued the Enclo. Or maybe I took something mildish for a little while, can't remember.

Would estrogen self regulate after stopping Enclom? Or do you need an AI to get it back down?

 

[KvanH]

Would estrogen self regulate after stopping Enclom? Or do you need an AI to get it back down?

It should. But if estro is way high, one may want to steer it in the right direction faster with an AI. That can create a risk of accidently crushing estro too low, or a rebound after cessation, or unwanted fluctuation, though. (Just felt like mentioning those possibilities)

 

[James496]

It should. But if estro is way high, one may want to steer it in the right direction faster with an AI. That can create a risk of accidently crushing estro too low, or a rebound after cessation, or unwanted fluctuation, though. (Just felt like mentioning those possibilities)

Which highlights the importance of bloodwork taking the pain out of guesswork. I think 4-6 weeks will be a good testing point. Never planning to stay on Enclomiphene longer than necessary

 

[Jeremyk1]

Would estrogen self regulate after stopping Enclom? Or do you need an AI to get it back down?

Yeah the body has a series of feedback loops to regulate hormones. But the whole reason enclomiphene works is by interrupting the feedback loop. So it should re-regulate, but if you skewed too far out of range, you could get side effects.

 

[James496]

Progress still going extremely well.

Week 3 on Enclomiphene and off of TRT, feeling as strong and focused as ever.

Still dosing at 25mg every day once between 7-8am. Still absolutely no side effects to report and no sign of sky high estrogen or low testosterone.

Absolutely itching to get bloods done but will stick to the plan.

 

[Justdabbling]

Obviously take this with a grain of salt since it's the main therapy they sell, but this is what Maximus has to say about high Estrodiol/Estrogen in bloods with Enclo:

"Our protocol uses Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs, Enclomiphene), which block the estrogen receptors in selective places (like blocking a lock from being opened by a key). Thus, this makes the amount of estradiol measured in your blood hard to interpret, since estradiol is not able to bind to many of the estrogen receptors and have an effect. That is why there is minimal concern for high estrogen side effects like gynecomastia while using a SERM, unlike TRT.

As a result, estradiol levels do not need to be lowered based on the levels on your blood test (unless you are having clear estrogenic symptoms)"

"Because the estrogen receptors are also being selectively blocked in particular areas like the brain and breast tissues, higher serum estradiol levels do not cause common high estrogen side effects (e.g. mood issues or gynecomastia associated with TRT)."

 

[KvanH]

Obviously take this with a grain of salt since it's the main therapy they sell, but this is what Maximus has to say about high Estrodiol/Estrogen in bloods with Enclo:

"Our protocol uses Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs, Enclomiphene), which block the estrogen receptors in selective places (like blocking a lock from being opened by a key). Thus, this makes the amount of estradiol measured in your blood hard to interpret, since estradiol is not able to bind to many of the estrogen receptors and have an effect. That is why there is minimal concern for high estrogen side effects like gynecomastia while using a SERM, unlike TRT.

As a result, estradiol levels do not need to be lowered based on the levels on your blood test (unless you are having clear estrogenic symptoms)"

"Because the estrogen receptors are also being selectively blocked in particular areas like the brain and breast tissues, higher serum estradiol levels do not cause common high estrogen side effects (e.g. mood issues or gynecomastia associated with TRT)."

Yes, that's a common effect with SERM's. But since SERM's have different binding affinities to ER's around the the body, some SERM's like Enclo may not protect well against gyno, for example, since (if I'm not mistaken) it doesn't have a high binding affinity to ER's on the breast tissue. Although one member recently told on another thread, that Enclo reduced his gyno effectively..

Also, you may have a problem, when discontinuing the SERM, and thus freeing up the ER's for estrogen to bind to, and now you have high estro ready to bind to all those freed up receptors. This is the reason (or one of) why people sometimes choose to taper down the dose of the SERM, before discontinuing it completely. This is also the reason (or one of) why sometimes people choose to add in an AI before discontinuing the SERM and run the AI for awhile, after discontinuation of the SERM.

Or that's just what's my understanding of it, at least.

 

[James496]

Incredibly valuable information. Thank you very much both of you & others who have been following this

I'm definitely not as knowledgeable as some on here, and the bulk of my input will always be based around how I'm feeling.

However, I definitely feel great and Enclomiphene has so far been very successful for me coming straight off of TRT.

Loss of strength was another marker I've been watching out for since coming off of TRT, but it just hasn't happened & actually my overall vitality appears to be holding up nicely if not better than the TRT.

One thing I would say is that it's evident I started responding super quick, but I was only on the gel and had never had injections on TRT. Not sure if that would help me recover better or not.

 

[James496]

Progress still going extremely well.

Still dosing 25mg every day, still no side effects or any unwanted effects, based on feeling, Enclomiphene has done its job.

will be getting blood work in 3 weeks so will report back then.

 

[Wobmarvel]

Yes, that's a common effect with SERM's. But since SERM's have different binding affinities to ER's around the the body, some SERM's like Enclo may not protect well against gyno, for example, since (if I'm not mistaken) it doesn't have a high binding affinity to ER's on the breast tissue. Although one member recently told on another thread, that Enclo reduced his gyno effectively..

Also, you may have a problem, when discontinuing the SERM, and thus freeing up the ER's for estrogen to bind to, and now you have high estro ready to bind to all those freed up receptors. This is the reason (or one of) why people sometimes choose to taper down the dose of the SERM, before discontinuing it completely. This is also the reason (or one of) why sometimes people choose to add in an AI before discontinuing the SERM and run the AI for awhile, after discontinuation of the SERM.

Or that's just what's my understanding of it, at least.

Exactly this. I am experimenting with enclo to see if it reduces my gyno symptoms at all. From what I understand it boosts testosterone by increasing the signalling and blocking estrogen receptors. It does not prevent testosterone being converted to estrogen though so levels can be high but at no risk while receptors are being blocked. If running 25mg per day I would taper down to 12.5 per day then 6.25, then every other day before coming off. I'm only running 12.5mg every other day so already quite low but using a dropper so can still halve that dose of need be.