Testosterone Gel/Creams
- Thread starter Slims
- Start date
Nac
Well-known member
Creams/gels can be very unreliable due to skin. IM youre obviously getting pretty much 100% into your system, so much easier to monitor and adjust dose.
Id personally prefer to inj myself for the rest of my life, than rub a cream in everyday and have the added concerns of permeability/wash-off/transfer.
Saying that though, some guys prefer TD for trt. Its a relatively stricter or "true" form of trt (pretty rare to get near-supraphysiological peaks with TD compared to IM at Dr-monitored trt doses).
Id personally prefer to inj myself for the rest of my life, than rub a cream in everyday and have the added concerns of permeability/wash-off/transfer.
Saying that though, some guys prefer TD for trt. Its a relatively stricter or "true" form of trt (pretty rare to get near-supraphysiological peaks with TD compared to IM at Dr-monitored trt doses).
Nac
Well-known member
The nurse may walk you through it a few times. If you want it bad enough, youll do it. Once youve done one youll be past the major mental hurdle.
Toren
Well-known member
Sub-q into the stomach fat works great for Test injections and is pretty much pain free. I ran a whole cycle doing sub-q pins and had great results.
A 26g 3/8" or 1/2" needle would work great. You could even use a 28g slin pin if you don't mind waiting for the barrel to fill up. Injecting takes patience as well as the needle is smaller. I prefer the bigger needle as it's less likely to move around with less pressure being applied on the plunger.
Slims
Well-known member
How deep do you have to put the needle in for Sub-Q injections, they've told me IM has to go in about an inch?
I'm thinking about using an insulin pin but I don't know if a smaller pin might mean more pain or cause more PIP.
Toren
Well-known member
With a 3/8 or 1/2" needle you'd go almost all of the way in. I always like to leave a small portion of the needle visible for safety purposes.
There is barely even a prick with the 28g slin pin but there is more chance for PIP in my experience, as opposed to using a 25 or 26g needle. Because the slin pin is so small, and because of my lack of patience, I always end up pushing harder on the back of the plunger to speed up the process of emptying the barrel. This can lead to needle movement and sometimes this can cause a bit of increased PIP. The slightly bigger needle is better as far as I'm concerned. I always warm up my oil by placing the vial in some hot water for a minute or two before drawing. This speeds up the process all around.
I like to rotate left and right side of the bellybutton, as well as left and right fat pad by the hip/glute area.
Slims
Well-known member
By 1/2" do you mean half an inch?
How painful is the 25/26 guage? Do you get any leakage with the thicker needle?
Toren
Well-known member
Yes, one half inch.
There's not much pain with a 25/26g. It's like a very small prick. Sometimes I don't even feel it, other times I feel a minor prick. Depends on the location.
I just checked and I was using a 25g 5/8". Simple and pretty much painless. If you could find a 26g 1/2" that would be cool too. Personally, I always worry about needle breakage when trying to push oil through a small 28/29g slin pin. It's just not worth it to me.
Slims
Well-known member
Thanks for clarifying.
I didn't know needles could break! That's even more concerning.
Other than the reduced pain, do you notice any other benefits of Sub-Q over IM?
Toren
Well-known member
Needle breakage is rare from what I know. You'd have to really mess something up to accomplish that with a 25/26g pin. I wouldn't worry about it at all!
I don't have to worry about veins and nerves nearly as much with sub-q. The release of the active is supposed to be slower in fat than it is in muscle. That should mean less drastic peaks and valleys in circulating levels.
Slims
Well-known member
So a 26 guage needle half an inch deep straight into an area with a fat or skin fold?
How long do you press in for usually?
Toren
Well-known member
You can go straight in or at a 45 degree angle. I prefer straight in. Stomach fat is usually where people pin. Watch a few yout*be videos of Sub-Q TRT injections. You will get the idea...
Insert, slowly inject, hold the needle there for a few seconds and slowly withdraw. Ocassionally you might get a small blood drop or even drop of oil. Keeping the needle there for a few seconds after injecting all of the oil should help eliminate leakage. I always have an alcohol pad ready in the other hand.
Make sure you prep and clean properly!
kenpoengineer
Well-known member
Here is a great guide to TRT you might find helpful:
Invalid Link Removed
If you want to investigate TRT through our board sponsor Entourage Medical, let me know.
Invalid Link Removed
If you want to investigate TRT through our board sponsor Entourage Medical, let me know.
liftin4fun
Active member
I am not sure if they make it anymore but I used Salvo I think from Iron Legions? Been a few years. He gave me about 150 sachets. I mixed 0.5ML with each satchet. One Am and one PM. Think it was about a 10-12 week cycle and I gained a solid 8-10 lbs of muscle that staid on after PCT. I really think that helped with the absorption as i tried it once before that and didn't get much out of it. If your stuck with only gel you may want to see if they have a similar option to help with the absorption rate.
boomdaddy3
New member
Hi Slims,
I am 59 years old and have been on TRT for 9 years and using a compounded cream the entire time. Yes - IM injections do deliver 100% to your system but with a little experimentation, backed by repeated labs, you can dial in your T levels using creams. I apply them after showering in the morning once daily. For the first 6-7 years, I applied to my buttocks but then something happened to my absorption levels (maybe my ass got fat?
so I switched to my shoulders with great results.
I use a 200mg/mL cream, three 0.25mL "clicks" (from the dispenser) daily - so applying 150mg transdermally daily. I understand absorption rates are about 10% so getting about 15mg per day. Results from my most recent labs last month (have them twice a year): total T = 1097 ng/dL (17 year old range is 348-1197). Free T = 23.97 ng/dL (normal range is 4.7-24.4). So I am definitely at the high range. My doctor likes to keep me between 800-1100. I am using exemestane as AI to keep estradiol in healthy ranges.
The only concerns I have about transference of my T to others is when I get a massage. I normally get those in the afternoon or evening and make sure to shower or use a washcloth to clean up my shoulders so it will not transfer to the masseuse (or my wife if she is massaging). I have used IM T in the distant past and I believe the TD method provides a more uniform T level - but that's just my opinion.
Hope this helps!
I am 59 years old and have been on TRT for 9 years and using a compounded cream the entire time. Yes - IM injections do deliver 100% to your system but with a little experimentation, backed by repeated labs, you can dial in your T levels using creams. I apply them after showering in the morning once daily. For the first 6-7 years, I applied to my buttocks but then something happened to my absorption levels (maybe my ass got fat?
so I switched to my shoulders with great results.I use a 200mg/mL cream, three 0.25mL "clicks" (from the dispenser) daily - so applying 150mg transdermally daily. I understand absorption rates are about 10% so getting about 15mg per day. Results from my most recent labs last month (have them twice a year): total T = 1097 ng/dL (17 year old range is 348-1197). Free T = 23.97 ng/dL (normal range is 4.7-24.4). So I am definitely at the high range. My doctor likes to keep me between 800-1100. I am using exemestane as AI to keep estradiol in healthy ranges.
The only concerns I have about transference of my T to others is when I get a massage. I normally get those in the afternoon or evening and make sure to shower or use a washcloth to clean up my shoulders so it will not transfer to the masseuse (or my wife if she is massaging). I have used IM T in the distant past and I believe the TD method provides a more uniform T level - but that's just my opinion.
Hope this helps!
Slims
Well-known member
I apply them after showering in the morning once daily. For the first 6-7 years, I applied to my buttocks but then something happened to my absorption levels (maybe my ass got fat?
I use a 200mg/mL cream, three 0.25mL "clicks" (from the dispenser) daily - so applying 150mg transdermally daily. I understand absorption rates are about 10% so getting about 15mg per day. Results from my most recent labs last month (have them twice a year): total T = 1097 mg/dL (17 year old range is 348-1197). Free T = 23.97 ng/dL (normal range is 4.7-24.4). So I am definitely at the high range.
I have used IM T in the distant past and I believe the TD method provides a more uniform T level - but that's just my opinion.
Those are some pretty high numbers from such a low cream/gel doses! How do you feel on the gel/creams as apposed to the injections?
boomdaddy3
New member
I would definitely get a little (and I mean a little) more "beast mode" the day of the injection but I like TD much better. Of course, I was doing more T via injection than I am doing with the cream. The cream is less hassle and I feel consistently strong & energetic. Based on everything I read when I started TRT, TD provides more even hormone levels. By the way, I originally was using Androgel but the compounded cream is cheaper and more concentrated. I have had free T levels at 1400 at one time when we switched from buttocks to shoulders - the difference in absorption was large! The reason we switched was because my levels were dropping and we had increased the dosage to 4 clicks (200mg) per day, which the doctor said was too much, had to be an absorption problem. We dropped to 2 clicks on the shoulders and free T dropped to 600, so upped to 3 clicks and that was the sweet spot for me.
Hope this was helpful.
Power-Lift
Active member
I tried a couple of SubQ injections for Test-E, but I did not like the knots of oil left behind, took days to dissipate, and they were a bit (not painful) but uncomfortable. IM into butt-cheek works like a charm, and no pain when done right...
Slims
Well-known member
My clinic prescribe TestoGel which is a 10% gel that comes in 5g sachets, so 50mg of Testosterone per application. Only time and blood tests will tell how well that actually absorbs and how much testosterone will get into my system. I'm considering adding the gel with something like MuscleGelz AndroShred which has a really great and super absorbant carrier.
I'm planning on applying the Gel to my traps/shoulders/colar bone area at night before my shower to avoid any loss through sweating during the day.
Did you notice any drop or fall when you switched from IM to TD?
boomdaddy3
New member
Let me be clear ... I did not transition from IM to TD ... I did IM years ago for a limited period of time with good results but chose not to make it a lifestyle. So any comparison between the two from my perspective would be tainted by a solid decade of aging (and declining memory :squareeyed
I was in my late 30s when IM and in my early 50s when started TD. In addition, when I was going IM, I did more frequent testing (did pre, intra, & post cycle testing - not cheap!)
Regrettably, I do not have copies of my labs from back then but do have almost 10 years of lab results (every 6 months) since starting TD. However, based upon the total & free T numbers I remember reaching via IM, I am confident I could reach those same numbers, more consistently, using TD if I chose to do so. They were only slightly higher at the peaks (1300-1400) than my currently stabilized levels. And I am monitoring my E levels much more closely now than I did then.
It really depends on what you are trying to achieve. I just want to look good, feel good, and have enough strength to do the things I want to do without being sore or risking injury. I believe I could get large on TD more easily than with IM with less hassle. But that is a decision you must make.
Slims
Well-known member
So even though their are possible absorbtion interactions with the TD TRT you still get the same results, i.e feeling good, strong, happy etc, as you do with the IM?
swimfan65
Well-known member
23 gauge, 1.5, every other day of prop. My ass is sore..but it's super easy. Messed my order up, usually get 25s..but no biggie.
boomdaddy3
New member
Unequivocal YES. TD will require a little more tweaking to get your levels where you want but, once they are there, they are very stable, day in and day out. With IM, you will get an immediate spike the day of injection and then it gradually decreases until the next injection. With TD, you get the same response general curve (because the the T is metabolized at about the same rate once it is in the body, irrespective of mode of administration) but you are adding T every morning, mimicking your natural T level cycle. So the levels are much more stable. To see this graphically, just google "serum testosterone levels after injection" and "serum testosterone levels using transdermal application" and compare. Both work, both can get your levels where you want them to go. If you inject daily, you would get about the same response curve as you do from TD - but who wants to inject daily?
Slims, I suggest you start with TD and see if it does the job. If it doesn't, you can always move on to IM. It's not like you are locked into one method or another. A few final thoughts ...
I do daily 250IU bHCG injections every other month to keep my HPTA (Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testes-Axis) producing some T (as much as they can) and retard testicular atrophy. That costs $80 for a month. My doctor costs $200/visit, twice yearly. Labs are pretty expensive (but mostly covered by insurance) because she runs a full metabolic panel with CBC and hormonal (both T & E) levels twice a year. Plus PSA once a year. But you must do the labs to monitor how your body is responding to treatment. A 3-month supply of compounded (made for me) T cream costs $160. I take very little exemestane as my AI (1/4 pill each week) so that cost is minimal. So annual costs are: $400 for doctor, $650 for T, $480 for bHCG, and $400 for labs --> ~$1800 per year plus another $200 for vitamins and supplements (DHEA, NAC, etc.) Well worth the money.
However, once you start TRT and continue for years, you pretty much are committed to continue. My doctor & I started with bHCG injects to boost my natural T production and it worked, just not to the degree we both desired. My doctor likes to keep her patients at early 20 hormonal levels and I could only get to mid-30s level with bHCG. We had a reasoned and fully informed discussion of the pros & cons and I decided to take the plunge. I will stay on T as long as my health allows me to (which means good labs and cancer-free).
Good luck!
swimfan65
Well-known member
Dr is covered by insurance, so is blood work, meds..if an issue arises, is also covered. I've been blasting and cruising for over 10 years.
Slims
Well-known member
Well I was first diagnosed with low testosterone at 22, I'm 25 now, they've pretty much tried every other method and non have worked so I know it's going to be a lifetime commitment.
My TRT clinic charges £400 per month ($560) which includes my prescription cream/gel and bloodwork every 6-8 weeks.
Have you ever tried applying the TD at night?
boomdaddy3
New member
Dude! Sorry to hear you are struggling with low T at 25! That sucks ...
Anyway, sounds like you are in the UK (based on costs) ... that is a lot of money in any currency.
I have not personally tried to apply it at night because I am trying to mimic the natural T cycle, which normally peaks in the morning. One consideration is you should not shower or swim for at least 8 hours after applying the cream to allow time for it to be absorbed. I always shower in the morning so I apply after showering. During beach vacations, if I know I'm heading out to swim early, I will wait until I return to apply. I have heard (but not experienced) that application of T at night may interfere with falling asleep but you would have to test that out for yourself.
One of the nice things about TD is I can apply anytime during the day and it will not result in a large fluctuation of my base levels on a daily basis. I travel internationally, go backpacking for multiple days, and do many other things which cause me to vary from my normal application schedule. I have even missed several days without any significant symptoms. If you examine the charts available on the web, you can see there is not an immediate drastic drop in levels using TD if you miss a day or two due to your busy schedule on a rare occasion.
I want to reiterate to you that T therapy is not a harsh taskmaster unless you choose to make it so. If you are a competing bodybuilder and doing all the optimization of diet, exercise, sleep, and substances required for that vocation, then - yes - the timing is critical. But if you're just an average joe like myself - 17" arms, reasonably fit, working out to enable enjoyment of the rest of your life - then don't sweat the details. As long as you are monitoring your labs, keeping T & E in balance, and exercising, it is all good. There are many other things to obsess over than TRT - it is just one thing you must do (like exercise or brushing your teeth) to enjoy a full & happy life!
Slims
Well-known member
I was first diagnosed at 22. I've had three years of being messed around so now I've had to go (and pay for) private TRT.
I workout in the mornings and have a reasonaly sweaty job, so my daily schedule would inhibit absorbtion if I applied it in the morning. I'm hoping that if I just apply it at the same time every day/night that my body will adjust to a new T-cycle. Now that I'm going on TRT and providing my body with exogenous testosterone my body's natural hormone cycle will shut down anyway. Applying it at night after a hot shower should hopefully maximize/optimize absorbtion.
My diet, excersice and supplements have nearly always been on point.
boomdaddy3
New member
It will be fine, Slims, however you do it (within reason) and you will be very happy with the results. I, too, had to go outside my insurance coverage because my T levels were within "normal" for someone my age ... the established medical profession expects your T levels to diminish with age, not taking into account that reduced T, coupled with elevated E levels due to increase aromatization, can contribute to an enlarged prostate and potentially cancer. Around 50, I suddenly started rapidly losing strength and the ability to recover from exercise, even though diet and exercise had not changed. That is when I went to see a doctor in my insurance plan and they just told me I should get used to it - it was part of getting old. I was having trouble staying awake in the afternoons to the point I would have to nap after lunch for 30 minutes just to get through the day. So I researched my options and ended up working with my current doctor, who does more than hormone replacement but total health.
Good luck and keep up the diet, exercise, & supps!
BobbyBarnes
New member
Dude, seriously. Man the F up. Stop being a damn pansy and just use insulin needles in your stomach. Jeesh what a cupcake
BBiceps
Well-known member
Great first comment, too bad you’re only 4.5 yrs too late but keep the good job up cupcake
Last edited:
Nodus1
Member
Great first post. Welcome to the forums, BobbyBrown.
KvanH
Well-known member
He's been a member for 2 years and now decides to post this in this old thread
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
Oh thank god someone finally said it, he's been waiting nearly 5 years for some inspirational paragon of excellence to gently, with honeyed words of encouragement to grant him the strength to make that leap. Slims life will never be the same, you sir could teach Tony Robbins a thing or two
