test-e/tren-e question

[beaver]

first off i'm 5'10 185lbs(in the middle of a cut). been training seriously for about 5yrs. besides prohormones ive run test-e, tren-e, deca, masteron ande winny. the tren, test, and masteron were a blend, anyway i've never gone above 500mg of test. this cycle and please dont hold back on comments< im looking to run this.
wks 1-5 test-e 500mg
wks 6-16 teste 750mg
wks1-12 tren-e 400mg
last 6wks winny eod 100mg
nolva pct

my question is should i keep the test dosage the same throughout? this being my 3rd cycle is it necessary to up the test? what is a good dosage of tren per week, don't wanna go overboard or run too long.
the reason i ask is because my friend is a chemical engineer and suggested i run the test this way. as for tren everyone has given me different dosages, and its not cheap haha, i wanna a nice lean bulk without running unnecessary amounts of gear. i'd really appreciate it if u guys would help me out. cycle is to start june 1st. btw i love tren, the winny might be dropped due to funds and if my source has dbol ill be running that 40mg a day for the first 4wks. i just really wanna run a solid cycle.

btw i have access to nearly every compound so if theres something that you think would be good to add lemme know. thanks guys and yes ive been searching the **** out of this. i just wanna hear some veterans point of view,
thank you

 

[ManBeast]

I don't see any reason to up the test unless it isn't enough for your goals.

 

[jaderjader321]

first off i'm 5'10 185lbs(in the middle of a cut). been training seriously for about 5yrs. besides prohormones ive run test-e, tren-e, deca, masteron ande winny. the tren, test, and masteron were a blend, anyway i've never gone above 500mg of test. this cycle and please dont hold back on comments< im looking to run this.
wks 1-5 test-e 500mg
wks 6-16 teste 750mg
wks1-12 tren-e 400mg
last 6wks winny eod 100mg
nolva pct

my question is should i keep the test dosage the same throughout? this being my 3rd cycle is it necessary to up the test? what is a good dosage of tren per week, don't wanna go overboard or run too long.
the reason i ask is because my friend is a chemical engineer and suggested i run the test this way. as for tren everyone has given me different dosages, and its not cheap haha, i wanna a nice lean bulk without running unnecessary amounts of gear. i'd really appreciate it if u guys would help me out. cycle is to start june 1st. btw i love tren, the winny might be dropped due to funds and if my source has dbol ill be running that 40mg a day for the first 4wks. i just really wanna run a solid cycle.

btw i have access to nearly every compound so if theres something that you think would be good to add lemme know. thanks guys and yes ive been searching the **** out of this. i just wanna hear some veterans point of view,
thank you

Well I'd say to keep the test at either 500 or 750 the who time. If I were u I'd get a kicker for the cycle like some prop or the dbol you were talkin about. I'd personally run super drol as the kicker cause sd is just the **** in terms of gains vs bloat vs dbol. So I'd say somethin like

500-750 test a week
500 tren a week
Dbol 25-45mg a day for first 4 weeks
Or the sd at 20mg.
This cycle will be intense and will get u jacked as hell and huge as fu*k!

 

[beaver]

thanks how long would you run this cycle. how many wks test/tren. i don't wanna go overboard and be shutdown hard like my last cycle

 

[jt339]

thanks how long would you run this cycle. how many wks test/tren. i don't wanna go overboard and be shutdown hard like my last cycle

Thread may be a little old, but what the hell. I would run the test at least 12 weeks. You need to stop the tren two or three weeks minimum before the test as tren has active metabolites that linger for a month or longer. When I use 19-nors, I always use the short ester (eg tren ace or npp) and give it two months before I start pct and it works quite well. Also, if 500mg test worked for you in the past, don't up it especially when you're adding something like tren. You just don't need to. +1 on the dbol/superdrol.

 

[Chalkblok]

Im on almost the same cycle right now, but im going with A50 and finatest.. You cant beat the drol for your initial kick in. I find the whole water retention thing blown out, the test keeps you hard and the diet has to be on point..will you need the winny? You probably know prop works really well with tren.. enth, maybe.. but i tried both ways in the past and prop gets u alot harder and the pumps are insane!

 

[fueledpassion]

For a cut, I'd run 1:2 ratio of test and tren. 250mg/prop and 500mg/tren-e and to keep libido up I'd run a few hundred mg of Masteron. Somewhere in the 400-500mg/week range.

My recomp/pre-contest cycle is very similar and will look something like this:


SD 20-30mg weeks 1-4, 20mg week 12 (competition week - adds in fullness and vascularity)
Test-E 300mg weeks 1-8
Tren-E 300-500mg (ramping up) weeks 1-12
Test-P 400mg (ramping down) weeks 9-14
Mast-E 400-600mg ramping up weeks 1-12

I agree that Tren needs to go a week or two earlier than test. Otherwise you might have a crash and burn...I will also be running hcg throughout the entire cycle up to week 13 or so..I would also recommend the same for you.

 

[jt339]

Im on almost the same cycle right now, but im going with A50 and finatest.. You cant beat the drol for your initial kick in. I find the whole water retention thing blown out, the test keeps you hard and the diet has to be on point..will you need the winny? You probably know prop works really well with tren.. enth, maybe.. but i tried both ways in the past and prop gets u alot harder and the pumps are insane!

Prop doesn't "make you harder," it causes less water retention for some reason. Test does not dry you out. +1 on the abombs, love that ****!

 

[jt339]

For a cut, I'd run 1:2 ratio of test and tren. 250mg/prop and 500mg/tren-e and to keep libido up I'd run a few hundred mg of Masteron. Somewhere in the 400-500mg/week range.

My recomp/pre-contest cycle is very similar and will look something like this:


SD 20-30mg weeks 1-4, 20mg week 12 (competition week - adds in fullness and vascularity)
Test-E 300mg weeks 1-8
Tren-E 300-500mg (ramping up) weeks 1-12
Test-P 400mg (ramping down) weeks 9-14
Mast-E 400-600mg ramping up weeks 1-12

I agree that Tren needs to go a week or two earlier than test. Otherwise you might have a crash and burn...I will also be running hcg throughout the entire cycle up to week 13 or so..I would also recommend the same for you.

I don't believe in lower test when using tren. Tren can really give you some anxiety and test helps counter that that (assuming estro is in check) as well as keeping your energy levels up when you're dieting hard. Masteron isn't going to do anything for libido if prolactin levels are elevated. You need a dopamine agonist like caber or prami to counter raised prolactin when using 19-nors. Also, when using tren E, I always advise at least 6 weeks off before starting pct as it can make pct hell. You won't need the superdrol in week 12 either if running 600mg of mast. If you're not sure whether to use 400 or 600 of mast, use 600. Risk to reward ratio is much lower.

 

[Chalkblok]

Yes prop makes ( me) harder! Been doing it for over a decade..dont know bout the " dry u out " thing you mentioned.. unless your talking bout pre contest prep, and thats a whole other animal.

 

[jt339]

Yes prop makes ( me) harder! Been doing it for over a decade..dont know bout the " dry u out " thing you mentioned.. unless your talking bout pre contest prep, and thats a whole other animal.

"getting harder" is a combination of increased glycogen stores which you do get from test, but more importantly anti-estrogen effects which you do not get from test. If you think prop makes you pop try some winny.

 

[fueledpassion]

I don't believe in lower test when using tren. Tren can really give you some anxiety and test helps counter that that (assuming estro is in check) as well as keeping your energy levels up when you're dieting hard. Masteron isn't going to do anything for libido if prolactin levels are elevated. You need a dopamine agonist like caber or prami to counter raised prolactin when using 19-nors. Also, when using tren E, I always advise at least 6 weeks off before starting pct as it can make pct hell. You won't need the superdrol in week 12 either if running 600mg of mast. If you're not sure whether to use 400 or 600 of mast, use 600. Risk to reward ratio is much lower.

The SD is to help with glycogen uptake week of the competition. You're supposed to carb up a few days or a week before the show. SD helps tremendously in this area. I have alot of experience with SD (more than most on this board) and I'm not afraid to use it week of show.

While I see what you are saying about Test/Tren ratio needing to be more liberal, despite the logical standpoint behind your argument, advanced Tren users that have tried this 1:2 method say otherwise. Here is what I know and why I will stick to the 1:2 ratio at first.

1. There tends to be an inverse relationship between prolactin and dopamine. When prolactin is high, dopamine is low.

2. Effects of high prolactin: low sperm and testosterone production, low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, breast tenderness and enlargement, and anxiety ; Invalid Link Removed

3. Estrogen has a direct positive relationship with prolactin. Prolactin doesn't cause gyno - estrogen does. But prolactin does cause sensitive or puffy nipples, anxiety, loss of libido, and suppression of testosterone and sperm production; http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/123701-progesterone-prolactin.html - this one is from Seth Roberts right here on AM. So keeping estrogen low will control prolactin levels. Why do you think people that take Forma-stanzol w/ 19-NOR products always maintain a decent libido and no anxiety? Forma-stanzol isn't a dopamine agonist, it's just an estrogen-control agent.

4. Consider the conversion factor of testosterone to estrogen. Butt loads of testosterone in conjunction with Trenbolone gives way for lots of estrogen circulating in the system. Estrogen + T3 suppression = Prolactin (which leads to the unwanted "Tren" sides) Here are a few references regarding that topic: Invalid Link Removed; This source claims the progesterones actually control estrogen in men. Invalid Link Removed

5. Trenbolone is a progestin. "Progestin is to progesterone as androgen is to testosterone" - Seth Roberts

6. Trenbolone also causes a reduction in T3 production, subsequently leading to prolactin increases. Hypothyroidism leads to hyperprolactinaemia - Invalid Link Removed ; The first thing a doctor tends to check is your thyroid production when you have elevated prolactin levels. Invalid Link Removed ; Invalid Link Removed

7. And lastly, Trenbolone is far more dominant in binding to the androgen receptor when compared to Testosterone. I don't want to waste testosterone knowing that Tren is dominating the receptor sites - especially with Tren-E.

The point to all of this: There is a reason I say 1:2 ratio.

Tren sides are not tren sides at all. Tren indirectly affects prolactin via 1) Reducing T3 production & 2) being stacked with Testosterone and having no estrogen control. Prolactin is created by estrogen, thyroid dysfunction or thyroid suppression and/or pituitary malfunction via tumor.

After doing all this research, I'm almost convince that Tren could be ran alone, with nothing other than T3 & Iodine to combat thyroid suppression. But since we love the high of testosterone (because it causes a release in dopamine which is good) we need some test in the picture yet we need to control the estrogen so that it doesn't causes prolactin secrection. And since Testosterone is completely and utterly inferior to Trenbolone's anabolic:androgenic ration - I say run a TRT baseline amount of test, a weak estrogen-control agent (Mast-E @ 400mg/weekly), T3/Iodine and gobs of Tren to take advantage of the available androgen-receptor sites.

And regarding Masteron - It's controls estrogen. Controlling estrogen controls prolactin. Controlling prolactin controls typical Tren sides assuming that you are using supplemental T3. I still can't get away from night sweats and extreme aggression :cussing:. But for the most part, I can "have my cake and eat it too". I should really change my username to that phrase lol. That's what I'm all about. Win/win situation everywhere I go..

 

[jt339]

The SD is to help with glycogen uptake week of the competition. You're supposed to carb up a few days or a week before the show. SD helps tremendously in this area. I have alot of experience with SD (more than most on this board) and I'm not afraid to use it week of show.

Tren is going to increase glycogen stores exponentially and using SD is just a waste. It is pretty cheap so I guess this isn't a big deal.

While I see what you are saying about Test/Tren ratio needing to be more liberal, despite the logical standpoint behind your argument, advanced Tren users that have tried this 1:2 method say otherwise. Here is what I know and why I will stick to the 1:2 ratio at first.

Advanced users? Who the hell are you hanging around? I have never seen anyone use this method and think it is better in any way.

1. There tends to be an inverse relationship between prolactin and dopamine. When prolactin is high, dopamine is low.

Right.

2. Effects of high prolactin: low sperm and testosterone production, low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, breast tenderness and enlargement, and anxiety ; Invalid Link Removed

Right.

3. Estrogen has a direct positive relationship with prolactin. Prolactin doesn't cause gyno - estrogen does. But prolactin does cause sensitive or puffy nipples, anxiety, loss of libido, and suppression of testosterone and sperm production; http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/123701-progesterone-prolactin.html - this one is from Seth Roberts right here on AM. So keeping estrogen low will control prolactin levels. Why do you think people that take Forma-stanzol w/ 19-NOR products always maintain a decent libido and no anxiety? Forma-stanzol isn't a dopamine agonist, it's just an estrogen-control agent.

This logic sounds great, but doesn't always hold true and I actually have experience with it. I was running test prop, tren ace and mast last year and as well all know mast will act as an AI. Got anxiety which I attributed to the tren, but then my dick stopped working. Started adex and it didn't help at all. Took caber and BOOM felt better within a day. I don't know anything about that forma stuff as I don't dabble in anything that doesn't have solid research behind it besides superdrol.

4. Consider the conversion factor of testosterone to estrogen. Butt loads of testosterone in conjunction with Trenbolone gives way for lots of estrogen circulating in the system. Estrogen + T3 suppression = Prolactin (which leads to the unwanted "Tren" sides) Here are a few references regarding that topic: Invalid Link Removed; This source claims the progesterones actually control estrogen in men. Invalid Link Removed

The last sentence is somewhat true as progesterone is an intermediate in estrogen synthesis, but there are many pathways to get to estrogen synthesis and inhibiting progesterone will still lead to estrogen production. Also, there is no such thing as progesterones, just progesterone. I think the word you were looking for is progestogens.

5. Trenbolone is a progestin. "Progestin is to progesterone as androgen is to testosterone" - Seth Roberts

To me, this sentence says you don't think tren is an androgen, but I could just be reading it wrong. If anything I would change that quote to to "androgen is to trenbolone" as it is much stronger in terms of androgenic effects.

6. Trenbolone also causes a reduction in T3 production, subsequently leading to prolactin increases. Hypothyroidism leads to hyperprolactinaemia - Invalid Link Removed ; The first thing a doctor tends to check is your thyroid production when you have elevated prolactin levels. Invalid Link Removed ; Invalid Link Removed

Right.

7. And lastly, Trenbolone is far more dominant in binding to the androgen receptor when compared to Testosterone. I don't want to waste testosterone knowing that Tren is dominating the receptor sites - especially with Tren-E.

This is moot. By this logic running halotestin should mitigate all effects from other steroids which we know is just not true. Also, ester doesn't have anything to do with "dominating" receptor types.

The point to all of this: There is a reason I say 1:2 ratio.

Tren sides are not tren sides at all. Tren indirectly affects prolactin via 1) Reducing T3 production & 2) being stacked with Testosterone and having no estrogen control. Prolactin is created by estrogen, thyroid dysfunction or thyroid suppression and/or pituitary malfunction via tumor.

Estrogen does increase prolactin production, but by how much is individual. Some may drive estrogen into the ground, but still have high prolactin. Just because estrogen can cause prolactin to be increased does not mean that is the only way it will increase. So basically, controling estrogen is a good way to help fight prolactin levels, but it is only an indirect method while a dopamine agonist is direct.

After doing all this research, I'm almost convince that Tren could be ran alone, with nothing other than T3 & Iodine to combat thyroid suppression. But since we love the high of testosterone (because it causes a release in dopamine which is good) we need some test in the picture yet we need to control the estrogen so that it doesn't causes prolactin secrection. And since Testosterone is completely and utterly inferior to Trenbolone's anabolic:androgenic ration - I say run a TRT baseline amount of test, a weak estrogen-control agent (Mast-E @ 400mg/weekly), T3/Iodine and gobs of Tren to take advantage of the available androgen-receptor sites.

Run tren alone and you will hate life. Your gains will be great as it is tren afterall, but add fatigue and decreased drive to the list of sides you get with tren and you can see how this cycle would not be fun. Running T3 will promote thyroid suppression, not help it. The androgen receptor debate, like said before, should not be the be all end all of discussion. As stated previously, halo would mitigate all effects of other steroids if this were true since its androgenic rating is around 1900. I have powerlifting friends who run halo and with test and the test is definitely working. If it wasn't they'd walk around feeling like absolute **** all day, but they would be strong as hell.

And regarding Masteron - It's controls estrogen. Controlling estrogen controls prolactin. Controlling prolactin controls typical Tren sides assuming that you are using supplemental T3. I still can't get away from night sweats and extreme aggression :cussing:. But for the most part, I can "have my cake and eat it too". I should really change my username to that phrase lol. That's what I'm all about. Win/win situation everywhere I go..

Never had any aggression with tren thankfully.

 

[fueledpassion]

The T3 isn't there to inhibit suppression. I know that. It's there just the same as running exogenous Testosterone in a cycle of other AAS gear. You put it in there so that your T3 levels aren't lowered thus triggering prolactin increase. Your anxiety is from prolactin increases, not from Trenbolone being a strong androgen. Tren binds to the progesterone receptor too not just the androgen receptor, btw.

I said control estrogen, not reduce estrogen. Limiting the estrogen in the blood is the goal not just reducing serum levels. Regardless, higher testosterone levels will not guarantee reduced anxiety. That's if and only if you keep estrogen in check with those high levels of Test.

Testosterone does increase dopamine release which will suppress prolactin levels but none of that matters if you are taking Caber or Bromo obviously. However really high test levels tend to lead to higher estrogen levels. Couple that with low T3 levels and you have a recipe for high serum prolactin which causes the problems you speak of. Taking dopamine agonists is a solution no doubt, but adding more than necessary levels of test to the tren isn't. That's all I'm getting at.

My point is that 250mg Test and 500mg Tren with 25mcg T3/daily + a mild estrogen-controlling agent will likely reduce any possibility of prolactin becoming an issue. If somehow it still becomes and issue, the final resort should be a dopamine agonist, not more Test. I'm not against taking higher testosterone levels with Tren, but the information that I have found indicates that higher t-levels will have little affects on avoiding prolactin sides. I personally can't justify taking higher levels of Test knowing that Tren is so much stronger. Do I really need 500mg of Testosterone when I'm taking such a potent androgen as Tren? I personally couldn't justify it. I'd rather up the Tren and get more strength and mass gains from it rather than upping the testosterone and risking estrogen-related prolactin issues.

Hey man, I make the connection you are saying about getting those sides and using Caber which fixed everything. That's a good indicator that you had prolactin issues from low serum T3 levels. Take T3 next time and I wouldn't be surprised that you wouldn't need Caber. I mean we know for a fact that Tren lowers T3 levels and we also know that lower T3 levels will trigger significant prolactin increases in the blood.

And I know ester types do not have anything to do with dominating receptors. The comment I was aiming for obviously was misworded. Nevermind the statement, lol. But regarding the receptor-site binding affinity - I'm not so sure the anabolic:androgenic ratio has anything to do with how tight or hard the androgen binds to the receptor. If that were true, then EQ should have a relatively strong binding affinity, but it doesn't. It's rated at 100:50 which is very similar to test yet testosterone binds much longer and stronger. Trenbolone, being a 19-NOR steroid, has a very very strong binding affinity and I can imagine it competes well against any other injectible form of steroids. The only others that could perhaps match it in binding affinities are probably orals, right?

At the end of the day, I'm not blaming the presence of the Trenbolone molecule for the fatigue, anxiety, loss of libidom and sex drive. I'm blaming high prolactin levels for that. Tren lowers T3 production which in turn gives way to all of those sides above. So what exactly does Test contribute to that Tren doesn't already do? We've got plenty of anabolic and androgenic activity from Tren which will be plenty to keep a libido high. It's keeping prolactin low is the trick...Caber and estrogen control via Mast was your solution. Mine would be T3 and Mast. I would want to avoid Caber due to price and risk if at all possible.

 

[jt339]

The T3 isn't there to inhibit suppression. I know that. It's there just the same as running exogenous Testosterone in a cycle of other AAS gear. You put it in there so that your T3 levels aren't lowered thus triggering prolactin increase. Your anxiety is from prolactin increases, not from Trenbolone being a strong androgen. Tren binds to the progesterone receptor too not just the androgen receptor, btw.

I said control estrogen, not reduce estrogen. Limiting the estrogen in the blood is the goal not just reducing serum levels. Regardless, higher testosterone levels will not guarantee reduced anxiety. That's if and only if you keep estrogen in check with those high levels of Test.

Testosterone does increase dopamine release which will suppress prolactin levels but none of that matters if you are taking Caber or Bromo obviously. However really high test levels tend to lead to higher estrogen levels. Couple that with low T3 levels and you have a recipe for high serum prolactin which causes the problems you speak of. Taking dopamine agonists is a solution no doubt, but adding more than necessary levels of test to the tren isn't. That's all I'm getting at.

My point is that 250mg Test and 500mg Tren with 25mcg T3/daily + a mild estrogen-controlling agent will likely reduce any possibility of prolactin becoming an issue. If somehow it still becomes and issue, the final resort should be a dopamine agonist, not more Test. I'm not against taking higher testosterone levels with Tren, but the information that I have found indicates that higher t-levels will have little affects on avoiding prolactin sides. I personally can't justify taking higher levels of Test knowing that Tren is so much stronger. Do I really need 500mg of Testosterone when I'm taking such a potent androgen as Tren? I personally couldn't justify it. I'd rather up the Tren and get more strength and mass gains from it rather than upping the testosterone and risking estrogen-related prolactin issues.

Hey man, I make the connection you are saying about getting those sides and using Caber which fixed everything. That's a good indicator that you had prolactin issues from low serum T3 levels. Take T3 next time and I wouldn't be surprised that you wouldn't need Caber. I mean we know for a fact that Tren lowers T3 levels and we also know that lower T3 levels will trigger significant prolactin increases in the blood.

And I know ester types do not have anything to do with dominating receptors. The comment I was aiming for obviously was misworded. Nevermind the statement, lol.

The problem is, tren, while being an amazing body recomp agent and amazing strength gains, doesn't cause the growth you would expect. That's what the equal amount of test is for. Of course when you use tren when you're small, you're going to get huge! However, when you're already big, it can become a big pain in the ass to put on size with tren because of the nutrient repartitioning effect.

Wouldn't "controling" estrogen be the same thing as lowering it? I mean its going to go up on cycle, so we take an AI to get it under control/lower it to a normal/sub-normal level.

I have no doubt T3 would reduce the sides, but if you use T3, your thyroid is probably going to take a few weeks to recover = you put on some fat and lethargy. T3 is also more expensive. It makes fiscal and physiological sense to me to run caber over T3.

 

[fueledpassion]

The problem is, tren, while being an amazing body recomp agent and amazing strength gains, doesn't cause the growth you would expect. That's what the equal amount of test is for. Of course when you use tren when you're small, you're going to get huge! However, when you're already big, it can become a big pain in the ass to put on size with tren because of the nutrient repartitioning effect.

Wouldn't "controling" estrogen be the same thing as lowering it? I mean its going to go up on cycle, so we take an AI to get it under control/lower it to a normal/sub-normal level.

I have no doubt T3 would reduce the sides, but if you use T3, your thyroid is probably going to take a few weeks to recover = you put on some fat and lethargy. T3 is also more expensive. It makes fiscal and physiological sense to me to run caber over T3.

Fair Enough! However I do want to reference my original rant which is that if I were cutting, I'd use the 1:2 ratio lol. I'm trying to recomp, so that's why I have a near 1:1 ratio at first on my cycle outline but as the cycle progresses, I drop to a 1:2 ratio and eventually clearing Tren from my system before dropping the test prop.

As far as controlling estrogen, there are different ways. Seth actually refers to different ways in that earlier reference. AI's aren't the best answer but they do contribute to lower estrogen levels in the blood. Nolva actually rids natural estrogen in a completely different manner from an AI, for instance. The same could be said for Epistane. It's an anti-e, not an anti-aromatase.

And one of my other references suggest Tren w/ D-bol and long-ester T for mass gains which obviously could amount to 20+ lbs of mass in a proper cycle. I'd go with SD in place of D-bol but everyone on this board knows my favoritism towards SD.

And high, consistent dosing of iodine might be an alternative to T3. Regardless, the Tren will temporarily shutdown T3 production with or without exogenous T3...could explain why prolactin related issues come about after stopping Tren, too since that would leave a window of elevated prolactin and low T3 levels. A tapering dose of Caber for 3-4 weeks after stopping Tren might be suffice as well.

I for one think there is some correlation between Trenbolone's extreme nutrient partitioning/metabolism-stoking characteristics and thyroid suppression. When iodine is low, T3 production is suppressed, thus leading to prolactin increases. Coincidentally, iodine also has a role in metabolism and growth and development in the body. Something connects all of these factors, imo but I just haven't figured it out yet.

 

[Chalkblok]

"getting harder" is a combination of increased glycogen stores which you do get from test, but more importantly anti-estrogen effects which you do not get from test. If you think prop makes you pop try some winny.

Ya good old stano, i always finish off with it...

 

[jt339]

Fair Enough! However I do want to reference my original rant which is that if I were cutting, I'd use the 1:2 ratio lol. I'm trying to recomp, so that's why I have a near 1:1 ratio at first on my cycle outline but as the cycle progresses, I drop to a 1:2 ratio and eventually clearing Tren from my system before dropping the test prop.

As far as controlling estrogen, there are different ways. Seth actually refers to different ways in that earlier reference. AI's aren't the best answer but they do contribute to lower estrogen levels in the blood. Nolva actually rids natural estrogen in a completely different manner from an AI, for instance. The same could be said for Epistane. It's an anti-e, not an anti-aromatase.

And one of my other references suggest Tren w/ D-bol and long-ester T for mass gains which obviously could amount to 20+ lbs of mass in a proper cycle. I'd go with SD in place of D-bol but everyone on this board knows my favoritism towards SD.

And high, consistent dosing of iodine might be an alternative to T3. Regardless, the Tren will temporarily shutdown T3 production with or without exogenous T3...could explain why prolactin related issues come about after stopping Tren, too since that would leave a window of elevated prolactin and low T3 levels. A tapering dose of Caber for 3-4 weeks after stopping Tren might be suffice as well.

I for one think there is some correlation between Trenbolone's extreme nutrient partitioning/metabolism-stoking characteristics and thyroid suppression. When iodine is low, T3 production is suppressed, thus leading to prolactin increases. Coincidentally, iodine also has a role in metabolism and growth and development in the body. Something connects all of these factors, imo but I just haven't figured it out yet.

Hmmm I guess I can see the point. However, test is pretty cheap and I always feel better with more test, especially on a cut. I'm pretty well versed on the AI vs. nolva deal actually.

After seeing some blood work from a superdrol cycle, I am NOT going to run this **** straight EVER AGAIN lol. Holy **** this **** wrecks you!

I'm also curious how tren can suppress t3 but seem to make your metabolism unreasonably awesome. When you figure it out, let me know haha.

 

[fueledpassion]

Hmmm I guess I can see the point. However, test is pretty cheap and I always feel better with more test, especially on a cut. I'm pretty well versed on the AI vs. nolva deal actually.

After seeing some blood work from a superdrol cycle, I am NOT going to run this **** straight EVER AGAIN lol. Holy **** this **** wrecks you!

I'm also curious how tren can suppress t3 but seem to make your metabolism unreasonably awesome. When you figure it out, let me know haha.

My speculation is that Trenbolone depletes the Thyroid gland of the iodine it needs to produce T3. I would need to research this more to confirm tho.

BTW, I used UDCA on my SD cycle and my bloods came back clear as a whistle (as far as my liver values go). I posted those on this cite back in November of last year I believe. UDCA is a staple in my methyl cycles.

 

[jt339]

My speculation is that Trenbolone depletes the Thyroid gland of the iodine it needs to produce T3. I would need to research this more to confirm tho.

BTW, I used UDCA on my SD cycle and my bloods came back clear as a whistle (as far as my liver values go). I posted those on this cite back in November of last year I believe. UDCA is a staple in my methyl cycles.

LINK ME!

 

[jbryand101b]

have y'all read this?

ANABOLIC STEROID USAGE AND THYROID SUPPRESSION
Patrick Arnold

[...]

Bodybuilders who use large amounts of anabolic steroids often report lethargy as a side effect. Sleepiness, irritability, and foggy-headness are commonly reported by users of some of the more powerful anabolic steroids in large dosages. The cause of this lethargy has been the subject of debate in the performance-enhancement drug community, and the solution may be multifactorial. Published studies have given reason to suspect that thyroid hormone suppression may be one of these factors.

THYROID HORMONES

There are two major thyroid hormones, T4 and T3. T3 is considered the most active thyroid hormone, and its job is to act as a sort of ter regulator of every major aspect of metabolism- from protein thesis to carbohydrate and fat oxidation. T3 acts in general as a metabolic stimulator, and in addition to its influence on how the uses fuel for energy and tissue building, it also works to generate heat production (thermogenesis) via enhancement of uncoupling protein 1 (UCP-1) expression in the liver.

The production of too much thyroid hormone (hyperthyroidism) and too little thyroid hormone (hypothyroidism) are both undesirable conditions. Hyperthyroidism leads to overstimulation of the nervous system (resulting in elevated heart rate and nervousness), as well loss of lean body mass due to protein catabolism. Hypothyroidism; the other hand, leads to depression and fatigue, as well as other symptoms such as joint pain, sensitivity to cold, and fat gain.

ANABOLIC STEROIDS AND THYROID SUPPRESSION

As I stated in my introduction, published studies have confirmed that anabolic steroid use can suppress thyroid hormone levels in the blood. It appears that this is not due so much to a decrease in the production of the main thyroid hormone (T4) in the thyroid gland, however. What really is the culprit of the suppression is debatable, as different studies have found different things. Two things are clear, though. The levels of total and free active thyroid hormone (T3) are decreased with anabolic steroid use, and T4 thyroid hormone-binding globulin levels are markedly elevated. However, free T4 appears to be unchanged, as does TSH, which is the hormone that your brain produces to stimulate thyroid hormone production in the thyroid gland. So what is happening is not entirely clear. It may be a combination of disrupted conversion of T4 to T3 and/or interference of bioavailable T4 levels by excessive T4 thyroid hormone-binding globulin. Whatever the case, levels of the active thyroid hormoneT3 can be suppressed by anabolic steroid use- particularly at higher dosages. Such suppression can interfere with maximum muscle growth from a cycle, as optimal protein synthesis activity is dependent upon ideal T3 levels in the body.

It is interesting to note that bodybuilders have discovered by trial and error that thyroid hormone supplementation leads to greater gains during a cycle. I am pretty sure that this anecdotal discovery was made without the knowledge that AAS (anabolic-androgenic steroid) usage is thyroid suppressive.

 

[fueledpassion]

have y'all read this?

Thanks!

 

[aahmed]

To all those clowns that get mad when someone says low test, high tren is bs... ur wrong and ur just repeatin what u heard on the net..

ive tried to run test/tren twice last year and had to give up it was ruining my life seriously.

This year ive ventured into trt only test and high test and high mast.... im balling son... no side effects... just constant positive change.

I listened to ppl telling me to up test.. i went up to 1g of test wit 400-600mg tren.. i even tried as low as 200mg tren and with 1g of test... the higher test will make side effects go away is HORSE ****.... the opposite is true!

 

[fueledpassion]

To all those clowns that get mad when someone says low test, high tren is bs... ur wrong and ur just repeatin what u heard on the net..

ive tried to run test/tren twice last year and had to give up it was ruining my life seriously.

This year ive ventured into trt only test and high test and high mast.... im balling son... no side effects... just constant positive change.

I listened to ppl telling me to up test.. i went up to 1g of test wit 400-600mg tren.. i even tried as low as 200mg tren and with 1g of test... the higher test will make side effects go away is HORSE ****.... the opposite is true!

Thank you! I've been trying to prove this through legitimate science but no one wishes to consider it.

 

[steak taco]

How much tren are u doing with no side effects?

I'm in same boat on TRT and was thinking of doing 75-100 ED of tren ace and not doing anymore test than my 200 I get a week for TRT

Loved results from last cycle of tren and 500 week test but the insomnia was ****ing awfull last couple weeks. If I can have results without insomnia would be great.

 

[fueledpassion]

How much tren are u doing with no side effects?

I'm in same boat on TRT and was thinking of doing 75-100 ED of tren ace and not doing anymore test than my 200 I get a week for TRT

Loved results from last cycle of tren and 500 week test but the insomnia was ****ing awfull last couple weeks. If I can have results without insomnia would be great.

Why dont u buy a bottle of Keto and take it. 1mg at night would easily fix ur insomnia issue...

 

[steak taco]

Never heard of it. Can u give me more info? Thx

 

[fueledpassion]

Never heard of it. Can u give me more info? Thx

Yeah sure. The full name is Ketotifen. It is an anti-histamine but much, much stronger than benadryl. It's original bodybuidling intent was to remedy the sleep issues associated with Clenbuterol which are considerably worse than Tren in some cases but still comparable nonetheless.

You can find it on several research chem sites. Typically sites that sell Clen sell this as well. It's 100% legal, too.

 

[steak taco]

Sounds perfect! Thx for info fueled. I'll rep u when I get on computer.

 

[TayTeg]

Its all about how you handle the sides, I barely have any tren sides at 300 mg a week except horrible heartburn and metal taste, I also run 500 mg of test

 

[mik14]

So while taking tren & test is it necassary to have something like caber on cycle, or just have it on hand incase of any sides.

In other words would taking test, tren & a AI like arimidex on cycle be enough to control estrogen therefore reducing prolactin symptons.

Just thinking of my next cycle, i have spare tri tren was going to take test e with it and thought taking an AI on cycle may prevent any sides of prolactin gyno, not that i have had any issue with prolactin before, but i know taking nolva with 19nors can increase susceptiblilty to prolactin gyno

 

[fueledpassion]

If the ratio's are right, I would think it's fine personally.

I also think taking T3 with anything over 200mg/week of Tren. There are two pathways that cause prolactin to get out of hand. One is the estrogen and the other is the suppressed T3 levels. I would take 25mcg T3 daily with the Tren just to make sure neither of these happen.

 

[Malcolm]

Holy ****. I am reading this and I'm like..........what??????? Knowledge knowledge knowledge. Feed me. Obviously I will double check everything no offense. I never knew that tren had negative effects on the thyroid gland????

 

[mik14]

If the ratio's are right, I would think it's fine personally.

I also think taking T3 with anything over 200mg/week of Tren. There are two pathways that cause prolactin to get out of hand. One is the estrogen and the other is the suppressed T3 levels. I would take 25mcg T3 daily with the Tren just to make sure neither of these happen.

And if i was only planning on taking 200mg a week would you recommend t3 or caber,

I was thinking 200mg of tren and 450mg of test a week with an AI on cycle.

Also when they say no nolva with 19nors, what about your pct would you recommend stop the tren 6 weeks prior to pct so you can use the nolva for pct.

 

[rage4cage]

And if i was only planning on taking 200mg a week would you recommend t3 or caber,

I was thinking 200mg of tren and 450mg of test a week with an AI on cycle.

Also when they say no nolva with 19nors, what about your pct would you recommend stop the tren 6 weeks prior to pct so you can use the nolva for pct.

I know what caber is but t3?? explain please?

 

[fueledpassion]

T3 is Thyroid Hormone. Steroids, and especially Trenbolone, suppress T3 production. When T3 is suppressed, for whatever reason, causes a secretion of Prolactin.

Furthermore, high estrogen levels also allow for and instigate secretion of prolactin. So when u try and mitigate the prolactin issue caused by T3 supression by increasing testosterone amounts...u actually potentially make things worse.

My thoughts, keep test low. When prolactin sides come, try 25mcg of T3/day. If that doesnt solve the problem, then try Caber. If that doesnt work, then try an estro-blocker. And if that fails, consider upping the test or quitting the tren.

 

[TayTeg]

Best knowledge I've read in along time with T3