Taking gear and keeping majority of gains after coming off for over a year

[50Magnum]

This dude claims to have kept most his gains after taking some hefty cycles going up to 220lbs from 14-18.5 inch arms. Now hes sitting at 205lb after a year off ptc not taking anything maintaining his physique is this possible?

Heres the vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwC2z7IhN_8

 

[Whisky]

This dude claims to have kept most his gains after taking some hefty cycles going up to 220lbs from 14-18.5 inch arms. Now hes sitting at 205lb after a year off ptc not taking anything maintaining his physique is this possible?

Heres the vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwC2z7IhN_8

Can’t watch the video as I’m in a public place but are you saying you don’t believe it’s possible to keep a decent chunk of gains on a cycle after being off for a year?

 

[50Magnum]

I mean yeah; it looks like every1 I run across even if they are slightly under genetic potential they do a 12-16 week cycle of test hop on nolva/clomid and eat/train right but throughout the months they just keep getting higherbodyfat if they stay the same weight(muscle mass slowly dissipating) or if they dont eat as much(dieting off bloat/fat) yes they get much leaner but lose sizer faster. I feel like one cycle might not be worth it; say u go on and off a year; then go off PCT etc. take HGH and stay natty from their you can probably keep maybe 50-60% of your gains if u are slighty above your natural limit; if ur 245 lbs with 9% bodyfat at 5'8 then a TRT dose is mandatory. Only other example I've seen was Big J; but he might be on a slight dose of TRT.

 

[BBiceps]

I gained 10-15 solid lb on my first cycle, kept most of it and the strength a year after pct, I decided to lose weight after that but otherwise I would of kept it.

If you do everything right (gear, pct, train&eat) and keep doing it, it’s no reason why you shouldn’t keep lean mass.

If run something wet and gain a lot of water, you will obviously lose that or if you stop training&eating nothing will make you keep your gains.

 

[50Magnum]

so when you lost weight assuming you went on cut; you basically lost all ur lbm that u gained meaning dry gains and I'm assuming u lost all the strength you gained while dieting off the weight.

 

[BBiceps]

so when you lost weight assuming you went on cut; you basically lost all ur lbm that u gained meaning dry gains and I'm assuming u lost all the strength you gained while dieting off the weight.

Naw, I wanted to drop a weight class, so no cut, straight weight loss, had to change lifestyle, more cardio, less weights and less food so of course I lost strength.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Of course it is. AAS is possibly the only way to effectively initiate hyperplasia in adults and it has been proven that the additional cells, and even motoneurons, remain long after aas use.
Effectively, taking AAS probably increases ability to grow muscle indefinitely.

 

[Whisky]

Of course it is. AAS is possibly the only way to effectively initiate hyperplasia in adults and it has been proven that the additional cells, and even motoneurons, remain long after aas use.
Effectively, taking AAS probably increases ability to grow muscle indefinitely.

Exactly, I’d suggest very few of us would take aas if we didn’t know it was possible to keep some/most of the gains after pct and time off.

As benny points out it’s been scientifically proven the benefits of ped use are seen for years after (the context I saw this in was linked to athletics and the length of bans when banned athletes would still be advantaged even after their ban.

If you seen people get fat or lose everything then it’s likely either or both the following happened

A) they had poor nutrition (which you can get away with more on cycle than off) and ate like cnuts on the pretence of holding onto gains

B) they didn’t go as hard in the gym, as progress obviously comes slower post cycle and mentally they lost motivation.

 

[Jeremyk1]

A major part of hypertrophy is increasing the number of nuclei in muscle cells via satellite cells. Muscle cells are either one of very few, or possibly the only type of cell to contain multiple nuclei. Anyway, while training, there is a certain amount of “swelling” in the muscles (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, I think) which will stick around for weeks to even a few months after stopping training I believe. However, the extra nuclei stick around. That’s the reason people who used to be muscular generally have an easier time getting back in shape than someone who is trying to build muscle for the first time. I remember reading about a study in rats where they were given a round of testosterone injections, which understandably increased muscle mass, but even like a year later, they still built muscle more easily than normal. I’d have to search for that again, I forget where I read it.

 

[BloodManor]

Very interesting discussion

 

[Pec.Major]

A major part of hypertrophy is increasing the number of nuclei in muscle cells via satellite cells. Muscle cells are either one of very few, or possibly the only type of cell to contain multiple nuclei. Anyway, while training, there is a certain amount of “swelling” in the muscles (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, I think) which will stick around for weeks to even a few months after stopping training I believe. However, the extra nuclei stick around. That’s the reason people who used to be muscular generally have an easier time getting back in shape than someone who is trying to build muscle for the first time. I remember reading about a study in rats where they were given a round of testosterone injections, which understandably increased muscle mass, but even like a year later, they still built muscle more easily than normal. I’d have to search for that again, I forget where I read it.

This. I have read something similar. Its kind of cool, it´s like you change your DNA structure to have an easier time getting stronger and bigger even after your off AAS.

 

[YoungThor]

I’m in for this discussion. I sure as hell wouldn’t have chosen to get involved in this lifestyle if I didn’t think some of the physique changes and strength gains will stick around even after I stop taking the drugs.

 

[Newth]

A major part of hypertrophy is increasing the number of nuclei in muscle cells via satellite cells. Muscle cells are either one of very few, or possibly the only type of cell to contain multiple nuclei. Anyway, while training, there is a certain amount of “swelling” in the muscles (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, I think) which will stick around for weeks to even a few months after stopping training I believe. However, the extra nuclei stick around. That’s the reason people who used to be muscular generally have an easier time getting back in shape than someone who is trying to build muscle for the first time. I remember reading about a study in rats where they were given a round of testosterone injections, which understandably increased muscle mass, but even like a year later, they still built muscle more easily than normal. I’d have to search for that again, I forget where I read it.

I only learnt about muscle cell's retaining number's over time like fat cell's not long ago.
Changing thing's on a cellular level makes a big difference.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Can’t post links yet. Ergo-log was where I had read the info. “Testosterone propionate can have permanent effects on muscle gains” is the title of the article. The authors of the study said "Our data demonstrate that in least in mice, an episode of testosterone use may recruit a long lasting pool of excess myonuclei, and a persistent increased ability to regain muscle mass by resistance exercise in the absence of further... exposure"

 

[YoungThor]

Can’t post links yet. Ergo-log was where I had read the info. “Testosterone propionate can have permanent effects on muscle gains” is the title of the article. The authors of the study said "Our data demonstrate that in least in mice, an episode of testosterone use may recruit a long lasting pool of excess myonuclei, and a persistent increased ability to regain muscle mass by resistance exercise in the absence of further... exposure"

There are some hardcore anti-PED people out there who believe athletes who are caught doping should be banned for life. They argue that you’re body is permanently affected by steroid use. I believe this would be a harsh penalty but their point is kind of valid and that mouse study backs it up.

 

[BloodManor]

There are some hardcore anti-PED people out there who believe athletes who are caught doping should be banned for life. They argue that you’re body is permanently affected by steroid use. I believe this would be a harsh penalty but their point is kind of valid and that mouse study backs it up.

Or just stop the testing. Everyone does it anyway - some are just better at beating tests

 

[YoungThor]

Or just stop the testing. Everyone does it anyway - some are just better at beating tests

That’s my philosophy. Allowing people to use PED’s would level the playing field.

 

[50Magnum]

Yea I heard about changing the DNA etc. thought that was more promienent with HGH,Peptides use. What do you think about Jerry Ward's view; like he is some1 who is on top of training and diet; but he even said that when he hopped off the gear he lost all his gains no matter what; he'll keep alot for a few months coming off PCT, then more time will go by like a year and thats when most of his gains from gear diminishes. Like that vid where he showed himself being around 190-200lbs literally before he went on TRT; he was saying that he was at the same size as he was when he was 18-19 which was before he hoped on steroids and just reversed back.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Yea I heard about changing the DNA etc. thought that was more promienent with HGH,Peptides use. What do you think about Jerry Ward's view; like he is some1 who is on top of training and diet; but he even said that when he hopped off the gear he lost all his gains no matter what; he'll keep alot for a few months coming off PCT, then more time will go by like a year and thats when most of his gains from gear diminishes. Like that vid where he showed himself being around 190-200lbs literally before he went on TRT; he was saying that he was at the same size as he was when he was 18-19 which was before he hoped on steroids and just reversed back.

Don’t take anything Jerry Ward says seriously. He’s an idiot. In a video where he talked about cardio, (one of the ones about how basketball isn’t cardio) he said he wasn’t staying lean while on clen and T3 or something. He doesn’t know anything about diet or training.

 

[50Magnum]

I wouldnt say hes an idiot; hes been in this game for years. Yes he contradicts the **** out of himself sometimes, but I've been watching him for years I really think he has knowledge; I'm pretty sure his track record for getting people really lean or for competition is pretty high up their too. But that vid with you lose all your gains, could be possible that he maybe did gain muscle from years of steroid use and just doesnt remember. But also this dude cant train heavy from all sorts of injuries so that could also be the factor.

 

[YoungThor]

Don’t take anything Jerry Ward says seriously. He’s an idiot. In a video where he talked about cardio, (one of the ones about how basketball isn’t cardio) he said he wasn’t staying lean while on clen and T3 or something. He doesn’t know anything about diet or training.

I don’t know who this person is, but I do know that anyone who says basketball isn’t cardio is clinically insane. Give that guy a coloring book and get him off the internet.

 

[Jeremyk1]

I don’t know who this person is, but I do know that anyone who says basketball isn’t cardio is clinically insane. Give that guy a coloring book and get him off the internet.

It’s bad. I can’t stand Jerry Ward. He does nothing but talk out his ass and contradict himself. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but the guy that does every damn day fitness roasted Jerry once or twice. Those would be the videos to watch if you want to learn about Jerry. He’s so dumb.

 

[YoungThor]

It’s bad. I can’t stand Jerry Ward. He does nothing but talk out his ass and contradict himself. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but the guy that does every damn day fitness roasted Jerry once or twice. Those would be the videos to watch if you want to learn about Jerry. He’s so dumb.

Haha I’ll check that out in the morning.

 

[irone93]

I did a cycle of S23 and LGD. My strength increased maybe 20%. I felt swole all the time. When I came off I kept nothing. I have never done a real cycle but was planning to. My return to baseline after doing SARMS makes me rethink it. I don’t want to cycle, and then loose all or most of my gains. It’s different if you are going to TRT.

 

[YoungThor]

I did a cycle of S23 and LGD. My strength increased maybe 20%. I felt swole all the time. When I came off I kept nothing. I have never done a real cycle but was planning to. My return to baseline after doing SARMS makes me rethink it. I don’t want to cycle, and then loose all or most of my gains. It’s different if you are going to TRT.

Damn, that’s disappointing. Did you slack on diet and training at all after you came off? Some people like sarms because they say it’s really easy to keep the gains you get from them, not that you’ll make crazy gains anyway.

 

[irone93]

Diet and training were pretty consistent. The only other variable was I started BJJ again so a little extra cardio.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Diet and training were pretty consistent. The only other variable was I started BJJ again so a little extra cardio.

Did you do a full PCT?

 

[irone93]

Not really. I took some HCG but only had one vial. Took aromasin as well. Should have done more HCG.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Not really. I took some HCG but only had one vial. Took aromasin as well. Should have done more HCG.

You should have taken a SERM. Long term test supression will lead to decrease in muscle mass and strength.

 

[irone93]

Yeah, you are right. So what do you think one would keep from a 12 week cycle of 500mg of test a week?

What would you do for PCT?

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Yeah, you are right. So what do you think one would keep from a 12 week cycle of 500mg of test a week?

What would you do for PCT?

Ive never done test before (just ph and sarms) but PCT would be clom at 50mg ED first week, 50mg EOD second week, 25mg EOD last 2 weeks then bloodtest to see where test is at. Or nolva for 40mgED w1 then 20 w2 then 10 w3 w4 something like that.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Also I would try to reduce volume and increase intensity to keep gains.

 

[Jeremyk1]

One thing I read, I’d have to research more to be sure, but hCG is apparently not as helpful in PCT as a lot of people think. From what I recall, LH levels bounce back pretty quick after coming off gear, the problem is that the testes don’t respond to it well, probably due to atrophy from the cycle.

Regardless, it’s hard to pinpoint what the real problem might be. I’ve only ever done OTC PCTs after SARMs and kept all or most of my gains after coming off. It could be any number of things causing you to regress.

 

[50Magnum]

I mean he took S23 which basically shuts you down; on top of taking LGD; I would expect one to lose everything if they didn't run a PCT while running two compounds like that together. I mean they say HCG is the best PCT; but I hear from others that best way is to take HCG while running a cycle; then when coming off take nolva clomid protocol; I dont know if HCG is still needed. But damn yeah u aint the only person who lost all their gains after cycle; its all about getting the HPTA running again.

 

[50Magnum]

Not really. I took some HCG but only had one vial. Took aromasin as well. Should have done more HCG.

How long were you on s23 and LGD for? And HCG what was your protocol cause normal vials are usually 5000 IU which would normall last 2 weeks max. If that was how long your PCT was I dont know what to tell you.

 

[irone93]

I took S23 and LGD together for 12 weeks. Think it shut me down. Took HCG for two weeks

 

[BBiceps]

Not really. I took some HCG but only had one vial. Took aromasin as well. Should have done more HCG.

That could actually have shut you down further, never do HCG without a serm or test.

 

[Smont]

It took me 2-3 years of being off with injuries and ****ty training and a bad diet before I lost my cycle gains. I think the longer you have maintained a certain size the easier it is to hold gains. If your eating to maintain your weight and training hard you can maintain most gains, obviously if your a pro size it's not as easy.