Sustain Alpha benzoflavone

Liftingdad1420

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Hi All,

I just started a run of Sustain Alpha solo, as my last bunch of bloodworm showed decreased test and increased estradiol. My wife and I recently had our first daughter, so the doc said this is actually pretty common as a biological adaptation to fatherhood. However, I'd like to feel a bit more motivated in the gym, and thought this product looked like a pretty safe option.

I recently had to finish tapering off Valium after my psychiatrist put me on it for about a year, and withdrawing has been really difficult (if any of you have had to get off benzos, you'll know what I mean). My concern is that 7,8 benzoflavone, from what I've read, induces hormonal changes via GABA receptor modulation. When you're in benzo withdrawal, your GABA receptors are what need to heal, so I don't want to do anything that might slow that process. I've found articles that say it actually helps with withdrawal, but they aren't specific as to the mechanism. I'm tired of being an angry, sleep deprived bastard, so I'd like to get past it sooner than later.

Are there any Iconic reps/folks who have run Sustain that can speak to this? I've been looking for research like crazy, and there isn't a lot of specific information about the compound and it's GABA-ergic implications. Any help or insight would be great.
 
Aleksandar37

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benzoflavone shouldn't be related to benzos in the way that you're thinking. Benzo just refers to the benzene ring that makes up part of the compound. Do you have a link for where you found the flavone works through GABA? I'm not seeing that, so you shouldn't be worried, but feel free to let others jump in too.
 

Liftingdad1420

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benzoflavone shouldn't be related to benzos in the way that you're thinking. Benzo just refers to the benzene ring that makes up part of the compound. Do you have a link for where you found the flavone works through GABA? I'm not seeing that, so you shouldn't be worried, but feel free to let others jump in too.
Thanks so much for your reply. The first bit of information I found about 7,8 benzoflavone exerting it’s effects via GABAergic modulation comes from the product page:



The second ingredient in Sustain Alpha is 7,8 Benzoflavone. This neuro-active flavone has the ability to pass the blood brain barrier and block the suppression GnRH release through modulation of the GABAergic receptor complex. (6,7,21-30)

Other research has shown 7,8 benzoflavone to have positive effects on libido due to its aphrodisiac and anxiolytic (anxiety-relieving) effects. (10-13)”

When I followed up and tried to find other information, I found this article:


It doesn’t cite 7,8 directly, as the compound they used was a “benzoflavone moeity”. The information is a bit confusing, which is why I wanted to ask here—the GABA receptor sites are pretty complex, obviously. I’m not as concerned with the idea of “modulation” as I am of “sensitization”— want to make sure I’m not using another GABA agonist somehow.
 
Aleksandar37

Aleksandar37

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The second ingredient in Sustain Alpha is 7,8 Benzoflavone. This neuro-active flavone has the ability to pass the blood brain barrier and block the suppression GnRH release through modulation of the GABAergic receptor complex. (6,7,21-30)

Other research has shown 7,8 benzoflavone to have positive effects on libido due to its aphrodisiac and anxiolytic (anxiety-relieving) effects. (10-13)”
Well this is what I would need to start, but they don't actually list the references that those numbers cite to. Probably a copy/paste from another page, so let me look around a bit and get back to you. I don't rep for them, but have a PhD in neuro and also have plenty of personal experience with benzos. I've come off them twice and it sucks, so I understand your concern. In case I get distracted, feel free to ping me here or PM if I don't respond by tomorrow.
 

Liftingdad1420

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Well this is what I would need to start, but they don't actually list the references that those numbers cite to. Probably a copy/paste from another page, so let me look around a bit and get back to you. I don't rep for them, but have a PhD in neuro and also have plenty of personal experience with benzos. I've come off them twice and it sucks, so I understand your concern. In case I get distracted, feel free to ping me here or PM if I don't respond by tomorrow.
That’s amazing. Thanks so much. I’ll look around as well, and see if I can find the cited articles. My condolences on your benzo experiences— what nightmare drugs.
 

Liftingdad1420

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Well this is what I would need to start, but they don't actually list the references that those numbers cite to. Probably a copy/paste from another page, so let me look around a bit and get back to you. I don't rep for them, but have a PhD in neuro and also have plenty of personal experience with benzos. I've come off them twice and it sucks, so I understand your concern. In case I get distracted, feel free to ping me here or PM if I don't respond by tomorrow.
I managed to find a list of references— it’s obnoxiously long and I can’t find all the abstracts, but here it is just in case:


1. Resveratrol in Cardioprotection: A Therapeutic Promise of Alternative Medicine
Dipak K. Das et al.
Mol. Interv., Feb 2006; 6: 36 - 47.


2. The Red Wine Polyphenol Resveratrol Displays Bilevel Inhibition on Aromatase in Breast Cancer Cells
Yun Wang, et al.
Toxicol. Sci., Jul 2006; 92: 71 - 77.

3. trans-Resveratrol, a Natural Antioxidant from Grapes, Increases Sperm Output in Healthy Rats M. Em?*lia Juan, et al.
J. Nutr., Apr 2005; 135: 757 - 760

4. trans-Resveratrol relaxes the corpus cavernosum ex vivo and enhances testosteronelevels and sperm quality in vivo.
S Shin, et al.
Arch Pharm Res, Jan 2008; 31(1): 83-7.

5. Inhibition of human estrogen synthetase (aromatase) by flavones
JT Kellis, Jr et al.
Science, Sep 1984; 225: 1032 - 1034.

6. Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel trisubstituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. - a brief perspective
KAMALDEEP DHAWAN et al.
Addiction Biology (December 2003) 8, 379 - 386

7. Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

8. Molecular basis of the inhibition of human aromatase (estrogen synthetase) by flavone and isoflavone phytoestrogens: A site-directed mutagenesis study.
Kao YC, et al.
Environ Health Perspect 1998;106:85-92

9. Vasorelaxant and antioxidant activity of flavonols and flavones: structure-activity relationships.
OL Woodman, WF Meeker, and M Boujaoude
J Cardiovasc Pharmacol, Sep 2005; 46(3): 302-9.

10. Die Bedeutung der Passionsblume in der Heilkunde.
Lutomski J et al.
Pharmazie in unserer Zeit 1981;10:45-49.

11. The Honest Herbal: A Sensible Guide to the Use of Herbs and Related Remedies.
Tyler VE et al.
Pharmaceutical Products Press, New York, 1993.

12. Aphrodisiac activity of methanol extract of leaves of Passiflora incarnata Linn in mice.
K Dhawan, et al.
Phytother Res, Apr 2003; 17(4): 401-3.

13. Preoperative Oral Passiflora Incarnata Reduces Anxiety in Ambulatory Surgery Patients: A Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study
Ali Movafegh, et al.
Anesth. Analg., Jun 2008; 106: 1728 - 1732.

14. Essential oils are novel human skin penetration enhancers.
Williams A, et al.
Int J Pharmaceuticals 57:R7-R9, 1989

15. Allyl-containing sulfides in garlic increase uncoupling protein content in brown adipose tissue, and noradrenaline and adrenaline secretion in rats.
Oi, Y. et al
J. Nutr. 129: 336-342. (1999)

16. Garlic Supplementation Increases Testicular Testosterone and Decreases Plasma Corticosterone in Rats Fed a High Protein Diet
Yuriko Oi, et al.
J. Nutr., Aug 2001; 131: 2150 - 2156.

17. Corticosterone Can Act at the Posterior Paraventricular Thalamus to Inhibit Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Activity in Animals that Habituate to Repeated Stress
Azra Jaferi et al.
Endocrinology, Oct 2006; 147: 4917 - 4930

18. Study of the effect of sclareol glycol diterpene on the release of adenohypophysial hormones prolactin, somatotropin and adenocorticotrophic hormone
Georgieva et al.
Eksp Med Morfol. 1989;28(3):7-14. Bulgarian.

19. Study of the effect of sclareol glycol diterpene on the 3',5'-AMP level
Georgieva et al.
Eksp Med Morfol. 1989;28(3):1-7. Bulgarian.

20. Understanding True Aromatherapy: Understanding Essential Oils
Eileen D, et al.
Home Health Care Management Practice, Oct 2004; 16: 474 - 479.

21. Neuroactive flavonoids interacting with GABAA receptor complex.
F Wang, M Shing, Y Huen, SY Tsang, and H Xue
Curr Drug Targets CNS Neurol Disord, Oct 2005; 4(5): 575-85.

22. Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

23. Passiflora: a review update.
Dhawan K, Dhawan S, Sharma A.
J Ethnopharmacol. 2004 Sep;94(1):1-23. Review.

24. A gamma-aminobutyric acidB agonist reverses the negative feedback effect of testosterone on gonadotropin-releasing hormone and luteinizing hormone secretion in the male sheep.
Endocrinology. 2000 Nov;141(11):3940-5.

25. Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. ? a brief perspective.
Dhawan, et al.
Addiction Biology 379-386

26. Anticonvulsant effects of aerial parts of Passiflora incarnata extract in mice: involvement of benzodiazepine and opioid receptors.
Nassiri-Asl M, Shariati-Rad S, Zamansoltani F.
BMC Complement Altern Med. 2007 Aug 8;7:26.

27. Effects of Dialyzing γ-Aminobutyric Acid Receptor Antagonists into the Medial Preoptic and Arcuate Ventromedial Region on Lutienizing Hormone Release in Male Sheep.
Suzie A, et al.
Biology of Reproduction 58, 1038-1046 (1998)

28. Antiandrogen Microimplants into the Rostal Medial Preoptic Are Decrease γ-Aminobutyric Acidergic Neuronal Activity and Increase Luteinizing Hormone Secretion in the Intact Male Rat.
David R et al.
Endocrinology, Vol. 137 No. 10 (1996)

29. Non-classical estrogen modulation of presynaptic GABA terminals modulates calcium dynamics in gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) neurons.
Nicola Romano, et al.
Endocrinology, 10.1210/en.2008-0424 (2008)

30. Restoration of the Luteinizing Hormone Surge in Middle-Aged Female Rats by Altering the Balance of GABA and Glutamate Transmission in the Medial Preoptic Area
Genevieve S, et al.
Biol Reprod, Jul 2008; 10.1095/biolreprod.108.069831.
 
Aleksandar37

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I haven't seen anything that shows GABA activation in the way that would prolong withdrawal. Honestly, most of the references used don't even apply to 7,8 benzoflavone directly. My advice would be to give yourself a month or two, or at least until the withdrawal symptoms stop before continuing with the Sustain Alpha, just to be cautious. The only issue I see is using benzos and 7,8 benziflavone at the same time as they both metabolize via P450 in the liver, so keep that in mind in case you need to take it again.
 
chem.jr.

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Look into calming herbs such as passion flower, lemon balm, chamomile, and others. There's a bottle called "stress formula" by sundown i believe, whoever has the orange bottle- and that stuff worked great for bonzo withdrawal.
As for 7,8benzo- take all you want. I do not see any reason not to esp when it may improve mood, will probably have you lifting more frequently and that will help everything.

Lift as much as possible. Go for walks after meals. Have sex as much as you can, literally. And find something that will knock you out so you can get at least a solid 4 hours of deep sleep and hopefully more like 6-7. I really like the original formulation of alterill. But when it stops working dont just take more bc that wont do squat. Stop taking them for 7-10 days and start back over.

Benzo withdrawal is a real bitch but can be done (if i can, Anyone can) and if you can spend an extra 50-100 a mo on supps then it can be done rather comfortably. Feel free to message me for more info. I was on clonazepam (stronger longer acting version of valium) since i was 13 and recently pulled myself off. Used a bunch of natural stuff and cycled them so i didn't get too used to one thing. Cortisol can become an issie- on either side, so beware and take care of yourself.
Merry Christmas Boys!!!
 
chem.jr.

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Look into calming herbs such as passion flower, lemon balm, chamomile, and others. There's a bottle called "stress formula" by sundown i believe, whoever has the orange bottle- and that stuff worked great for bonzo withdrawal.
As for 7,8benzo- take all you want. I do not see any reason not to esp when it may improve mood, will probably have you lifting more frequently and that will help everything.

Lift as much as possible. Go for walks after meals. Have sex as much as you can, literally. And find something that will knock you out so you can get at least a solid 4 hours of deep sleep and hopefully more like 6-7. I really like the original formulation of alterill. But when it stops working dont just take more bc that wont do squat. Stop taking them for 7-10 days and start back over.

Benzo withdrawal is a real bitch but can be done (if i can, Anyone can) and if you can spend an extra 50-100 a mo on supps then it can be done rather comfortably. Feel free to message me for more info. I was on clonazepam (stronger longer acting version of valium) since i was 13 and recently pulled myself off. Used a bunch of natural stuff and cycled them so i didn't get too used to one thing. Cortisol can become an issie- on either side, so beware and take care of yourself.
Merry Christmas Boys!!!
 
chem.jr.

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Look into calming herbs such as passion flower, lemon balm, chamomile, and others. There's a bottle called "stress formula" by sundown i believe, whoever has the orange bottle- and that stuff worked great for bonzo withdrawal.
As for 7,8benzo- take all you want. I do not see any reason not to esp when it may improve mood, will probably have you lifting more frequently and that will help everything.

Lift as much as possible. Go for walks after meals. Have sex as much as you can, literally. And find something that will knock you out so you can get at least a solid 4 hours of deep sleep and hopefully more like 6-7. I really like the original formulation of alterill. But when it stops working dont just take more bc that wont do squat. Stop taking them for 7-10 days and start back over.

Benzo withdrawal is a real bitch but can be done (if i can, Anyone can) and if you can spend an extra 50-100 a mo on supps then it can be done rather comfortably. Feel free to message me for more info. I was on clonazepam (stronger longer acting version of valium) since i was 13 and recently pulled myself off. Used a bunch of natural stuff and cycled them so i didn't get too used to one thing. Cortisol can become an issie- on either side, so beware and take care of yourself.
Merry Christmas Boys!!!
 
cheftepesh1

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As I can’t really state how this would react with your situation, I don’t want to give you wrong information as it would pertain to Valium and withdrawal. @delsorob would be better to speak to the science and reactions. You might want to PM him.
 

Liftingdad1420

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I haven't seen anything that shows GABA activation in the way that would prolong withdrawal. Honestly, most of the references used don't even apply to 7,8 benzoflavone directly. My advice would be to give yourself a month or two, or at least until the withdrawal symptoms stop before continuing with the Sustain Alpha, just to be cautious. The only issue I see is using benzos and 7,8 benziflavone at the same time as they both metabolize via P450 in the liver, so keep that in mind in case you need to take it again.
Thanks so much @Aleksandar37, and thanks to everyone else for your input. I read about the CYP450 interactions (inhibits CYP1A2, induces 3A4), so that's good to keep in mind. Fortunately, none of my meds interact with those enzymes with the exception of caffeine, and apparently I'm an ultra-rapid metabolizer of 1A2 anyway according to gene testing.

As for the SA, I'll tread lightly with it. As of tomorrow I will have been off Valium for 2 months, so I should be healing, but I also know recovery from benzos is a long-term investment. It seems like SA shouldn't cause too many issues, but maybe I will cycle it (5 on, 2 off) and perhaps use a lower than standard dose, in the event that my GABA receptors are still too sensitive. If any of you have any other ideas/input, I'd be happy to have it. Thank you all again for helping me sort this out-- it's really helpful.
 
Aleksandar37

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Thanks so much @Aleksandar37, and thanks to everyone else for your input. I read about the CYP450 interactions (inhibits CYP1A2, induces 3A4), so that's good to keep in mind. Fortunately, none of my meds interact with those enzymes with the exception of caffeine, and apparently I'm an ultra-rapid metabolizer of 1A2 anyway according to gene testing.

As for the SA, I'll tread lightly with it. As of tomorrow I will have been off Valium for 2 months, so I should be healing, but I also know recovery from benzos is a long-term investment. It seems like SA shouldn't cause too many issues, but maybe I will cycle it (5 on, 2 off) and perhaps use a lower than standard dose, in the event that my GABA receptors are still too sensitive. If any of you have any other ideas/input, I'd be happy to have it. Thank you all again for helping me sort this out-- it's really helpful.
No problem! I wouldn't worry too much about receptors and getting back to normal as the body tends to be pretty resilient. As long as you're not dealing with any symptoms of withdrawal, you should be good to go!
 
thebigt

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I managed to find a list of references— it’s obnoxiously long and I can’t find all the abstracts, but here it is just in case:


1. Resveratrol in Cardioprotection: A Therapeutic Promise of Alternative Medicine
Dipak K. Das et al.
Mol. Interv., Feb 2006; 6: 36 - 47.


2. The Red Wine Polyphenol Resveratrol Displays Bilevel Inhibition on Aromatase in Breast Cancer Cells
Yun Wang, et al.
Toxicol. Sci., Jul 2006; 92: 71 - 77.

3. trans-Resveratrol, a Natural Antioxidant from Grapes, Increases Sperm Output in Healthy Rats M. Em?*lia Juan, et al.
J. Nutr., Apr 2005; 135: 757 - 760

4. trans-Resveratrol relaxes the corpus cavernosum ex vivo and enhances testosteronelevels and sperm quality in vivo.
S Shin, et al.
Arch Pharm Res, Jan 2008; 31(1): 83-7.

5. Inhibition of human estrogen synthetase (aromatase) by flavones
JT Kellis, Jr et al.
Science, Sep 1984; 225: 1032 - 1034.

6. Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel trisubstituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. - a brief perspective
KAMALDEEP DHAWAN et al.
Addiction Biology (December 2003) 8, 379 - 386

7. Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

8. Molecular basis of the inhibition of human aromatase (estrogen synthetase) by flavone and isoflavone phytoestrogens: A site-directed mutagenesis study.
Kao YC, et al.
Environ Health Perspect 1998;106:85-92

9. Vasorelaxant and antioxidant activity of flavonols and flavones: structure-activity relationships.
OL Woodman, WF Meeker, and M Boujaoude
J Cardiovasc Pharmacol, Sep 2005; 46(3): 302-9.

10. Die Bedeutung der Passionsblume in der Heilkunde.
Lutomski J et al.
Pharmazie in unserer Zeit 1981;10:45-49.

11. The Honest Herbal: A Sensible Guide to the Use of Herbs and Related Remedies.
Tyler VE et al.
Pharmaceutical Products Press, New York, 1993.

12. Aphrodisiac activity of methanol extract of leaves of Passiflora incarnata Linn in mice.
K Dhawan, et al.
Phytother Res, Apr 2003; 17(4): 401-3.

13. Preoperative Oral Passiflora Incarnata Reduces Anxiety in Ambulatory Surgery Patients: A Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study
Ali Movafegh, et al.
Anesth. Analg., Jun 2008; 106: 1728 - 1732.

14. Essential oils are novel human skin penetration enhancers.
Williams A, et al.
Int J Pharmaceuticals 57:R7-R9, 1989

15. Allyl-containing sulfides in garlic increase uncoupling protein content in brown adipose tissue, and noradrenaline and adrenaline secretion in rats.
Oi, Y. et al
J. Nutr. 129: 336-342. (1999)

16. Garlic Supplementation Increases Testicular Testosterone and Decreases Plasma Corticosterone in Rats Fed a High Protein Diet
Yuriko Oi, et al.
J. Nutr., Aug 2001; 131: 2150 - 2156.

17. Corticosterone Can Act at the Posterior Paraventricular Thalamus to Inhibit Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Activity in Animals that Habituate to Repeated Stress
Azra Jaferi et al.
Endocrinology, Oct 2006; 147: 4917 - 4930

18. Study of the effect of sclareol glycol diterpene on the release of adenohypophysial hormones prolactin, somatotropin and adenocorticotrophic hormone
Georgieva et al.
Eksp Med Morfol. 1989;28(3):7-14. Bulgarian.

19. Study of the effect of sclareol glycol diterpene on the 3',5'-AMP level
Georgieva et al.
Eksp Med Morfol. 1989;28(3):1-7. Bulgarian.

20. Understanding True Aromatherapy: Understanding Essential Oils
Eileen D, et al.
Home Health Care Management Practice, Oct 2004; 16: 474 - 479.

21. Neuroactive flavonoids interacting with GABAA receptor complex.
F Wang, M Shing, Y Huen, SY Tsang, and H Xue
Curr Drug Targets CNS Neurol Disord, Oct 2005; 4(5): 575-85.

22. Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

23. Passiflora: a review update.
Dhawan K, Dhawan S, Sharma A.
J Ethnopharmacol. 2004 Sep;94(1):1-23. Review.

24. A gamma-aminobutyric acidB agonist reverses the negative feedback effect of testosterone on gonadotropin-releasing hormone and luteinizing hormone secretion in the male sheep.
Endocrinology. 2000 Nov;141(11):3940-5.

25. Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. ? a brief perspective.
Dhawan, et al.
Addiction Biology 379-386

26. Anticonvulsant effects of aerial parts of Passiflora incarnata extract in mice: involvement of benzodiazepine and opioid receptors.
Nassiri-Asl M, Shariati-Rad S, Zamansoltani F.
BMC Complement Altern Med. 2007 Aug 8;7:26.

27. Effects of Dialyzing γ-Aminobutyric Acid Receptor Antagonists into the Medial Preoptic and Arcuate Ventromedial Region on Lutienizing Hormone Release in Male Sheep.
Suzie A, et al.
Biology of Reproduction 58, 1038-1046 (1998)

28. Antiandrogen Microimplants into the Rostal Medial Preoptic Are Decrease γ-Aminobutyric Acidergic Neuronal Activity and Increase Luteinizing Hormone Secretion in the Intact Male Rat.
David R et al.
Endocrinology, Vol. 137 No. 10 (1996)

29. Non-classical estrogen modulation of presynaptic GABA terminals modulates calcium dynamics in gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) neurons.
Nicola Romano, et al.
Endocrinology, 10.1210/en.2008-0424 (2008)

30. Restoration of the Luteinizing Hormone Surge in Middle-Aged Female Rats by Altering the Balance of GABA and Glutamate Transmission in the Medial Preoptic Area
Genevieve S, et al.
Biol Reprod, Jul 2008; 10.1095/biolreprod.108.069831.
@GreenMachineX
 

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