Superdrol..Gyno

MizXXL

New member
I recently made a few posts on some delayed gyno after running my first SD cycle. Many have suggested that I see the doctor so I took the advice. He said that there was no signs of gyno but when I asked about the small lump and tenderness I felt he said that I could possibly have a sist, personally I think he is wrong.

Once I was completly cleared I started my second Superdrol Cycle this past Friday. Since then I have had increased tenderness and the lump or hardness seems to be more apparent. Currently I have ran 10mg up until today and am going to run 20mg until I finish up my 3 week cycle. I have Nolvadex on hand for my SERM but what my real question is should I stop the Superdrol and start the Nolva or continue and wait till the end... I know that no one here is a doctor but it seems when I try to get his advice he seems to think everything is fine/or I should just stop what I am taking

All the help would be great
 
stop the cycle add clomid not not not nolva ok

if you only have nolva do you have any dht converting compounds like winny, anavar, etc, or even t,bol, these stop progestin, wich is the gyno caused by superdrol,

superdrol does not aromatize ok, but it is a progestin like tren, this means its form of gyno is far more aggresive and normaly shows itself from 3 weeks up until 2 months

stop the cycle start pct, if you use nolva, try and by clomid too, nolva can actualy antagonize and make progestin related gyno worse, be carefull man, just looking out for you, do a search for superdrol pct,
one more thing get some fenugreek and add it too pct quickly,
 
you can reverse it with letrozol if it wont go, but a study i read showed after 2 months, it becomes a stubborn attachment to the mammary gland, boobies for life
 
ok..So I am guessing that my doctor was just plain wrong and that lump is not a cyst and the start of gyno? What I dont understand is that he said there was no sign of breat tissue and the tenderness was probably due to the cyst. All I have is the Nolva on hand, any ideas where I can pick up the clomid? I have done a lot of reading and a lot of people here seem the think that Nolva is better then the clomid just wondering. How should I run my PCT that I have or even the clomid if I can get it. All 40 mg at night or throught the day?
 
If this helps also the tenderness has increased dramatically since I started the cycle of SD on Fri. Could this have all been delayed gyno from my first SD cycle in Sept or H-drol in Nov?
 
yes probably the onset of delayed gyno,
and start pct now
did you read what i said? nolva antagonizes the progestin related gyno!!!!!!
 
I'm not trying to be difficult, obviously I am starting to nervous because I dont want a pair of ***** tits, but doesn't Nolva block the estrogen receptors which can lead to gyno? Just trying to get all information in line before I start taking something else thats all, I do appreciate the help
 
yes for aromatizing steroids yes, superdrol, and h drol dont aromatize, they cannot,

I.) THE DATA
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----------------------------

PLease first view the attached graph. It's the graphical summary of 6 members who kindly posted their EXACT SD-cycle as well as their PCT-protocol.
(Damn, how can I put this image to be visible inside the thread? Someone help me please)

-All 6 subjects are our forum members (phantom21; pumpedgator; Epihall; D-Termine; SnakeVette80; Jay_D).
-In the graph you see how long they took SD (yellow bars), how much and how long they took RXT (blue), Nolva (red) or 6-OXO (green). On the right side you see the averaged number of weeks that passed after the end of PCT after that each subject reported onset of gyno (if someone said: "5-6 weeks", then I wrote: 5.5 weeks as the average).

There are additionally 5 forum members from the anabolicminds forum (baby_a; Rastar; Mass_69; Jared; reef) who also reported delayed gyno after SD and PCT. Unfortunately they haven't provided enough information in order to incorporate their data into my graphical analysis.
The first of those did a PCT with RXT only and reported gyno "several weeks" after PCT;
Nr.2 did also a RXT-standalone PCT and reported gyno "several months later".
Nr.3 got gyno 4 months after a SD-cycle; however he interponed a "MOHN / 4-AD-cycle" before he did PCT (RXT only).
Nr.4 reported onset of gyno "immediately" after finishing PCT with RXT and "LX" (LeanExtreme).
Finally, Nr.5 (reef) reported the probably most intriguing thing I have read so far: He did 2 SD-cycles: After the first he did an "old-school" Nolva-only PCT without any problems. Some time later he did his 2nd SD-cycle. This time he took RXT only for PCT because he ran out of Nolva. Guess what? The guy got gyno 4 weeks after he finished his RXT-PCT.


Here I will shortly summarize the theories that have been proposed so far about the origin and the mechanisms of delayed gyno after SD by several members from this or the anabolicminds forum. There were too MANY members, to mention them all; but it was a pleasure to see guys like BigCat, w-llewellyn and Dr.D (that's actually NOT me, this is one of the masterminds from designer supplements, who is posting at AM) chiming in and commenting on the issue.


II.THE THEORIES AND ARGUMENTS
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1.) Delayed Gyno is some direct pro-estrogenic effect from SD.
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COMMENT: This has been discarded because a) SD is supposed to aromatize very weakly. If it would have some "secret" pro-estrogenic action, its very short half-life (estimated 8 h) would prevent any DELAYED action.


2.) Some steroids, among them SD are supposed to cause a rebound of testosteron production after several weeks / months of recovery after a cycle. Some guys called this the "SD-echo". The overshooting test is responsible for consecutive convcersion to estrogen via aromatase and finally leads to gyno.
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COMMENT: There is probably something like a "testosteron-echo". Several people have reported such observations, but no one of them got actually gyno! The increased testosteron protects you from getting gyno even if your estrogen is elevated by providing a beneficial test-to estrogen-ratio.



3.) There is no "delayed gyno from SD" phenomenon at all. From thousends of people who did a SD-cycle there are relatively few who reported this issue. Some people are genetically prone to get gyno even after slight hormonal imbalances. Such imbalances can be caused by ANY steroid and are not specific for SD or the PCT. After all, there might be a "gyno-hysteria", with paple falsely reporting "gyno" even when they feel their nipples itch a bit, which seems to occur quite often when taking steroids.
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COMMENT: Well that argument is hard to beat, because we don't have the numbers. I have gathered 11 people who reported delayed gyno just by looking on two forums. It can be assumed that there a quite a few more, whom we don't know because they just never come to these forums. A realistical estimation would be to say: We have appr. 10 reported gyno-cases on 1000 people who used SD (that would be a rate of <1%). Well in medicine a rate of 1% is HIGH!!! Huge pharmaceutical companies get in HUGE trouble even if 10 people from 1 million get some serious adverse effects from a drug(remember the Lipobay scandal or the COX-2 scandal?). So, an adverse effect that is in the range of 1% is not a seldom or rare effect.
Even if half of the people who reported gyno don't have real gyno, there are more than enough cases to make this a considerable ISSUE!


4. Improperly off-tapered PCT led to estrogen rebound, that causes the gyno after some time.
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COMMENT: Well, as we see in the graph, we have virtually all combinations of down-tapering, up-tapering, constant dosing etc. So even if theoretically correct, proper downtapering during PCT seems to not protect entirely against delayed gyno.


5.) The use of Aromatase-Inhibitors after a steroid-cycle is the key for delayed gyno. It has been hypothesized that AIs lead to a huge up-regulation either of estrogen-receptors or the aromatase-enzyme, or both. When testosterone is slowly recovering after a cycle and has not yet reached full capacity-levels, the explosively ramping up of estrogen-production (aromatse upped) will lead to massive estrogenic action at peripheral tissues (additionally by highly sensitized tissue-receptors). This leads to a SIGNIFICANT dysbalance of the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio wich is the main signal for breast tissue to grow. At that moment gyno-development starts, and after some some weeks you can not only feel it but also see it!
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COMMENT: This is my favoured theory so far. It is very logical in itself. However, we don't have experimental evidence for that, so it still remains a theory. What speaks dor this teory is that litterally ALL cases I found on BB.com as well as on AM-forum did their PCT with an AI alone or in combination with Nolva. Their might be one single exception to this (there is a guy called "Dmitry" or alike whose posts I didn't entirelly understood. He seems to have used only Nolva for PCT, but that is not clear). Even if there would be one case, there are 11 cases that stands against. So, possibly AIs are not the ENTIRE explanation but they SEEM to be the major RISK-FACTOR to develop delayed gyno after SD.
However, the overall risk to get delayed gyno after sd is about 1%. From this 1% 0.9% can - possibly-be accounted for by AIs.

6. (UPDATE) The combination of a STRONG shutdown of testosteron-production (induced by a STRONG androgenic substance) with a STRONG estrogenic hypersensitation (induced by an AI) seems to be crucial in order to push the ratio of testosteron-to-estrogen-(receptor-action) beyond a critical threshold for developing gyno.
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COMMENT: Several forum members have pointed to the observation that apparently all delayed-gyno cases have been reported from users who had an AI during PCT + SD during ON cycle. To date no reports have appeard on delayd gyno after other designer steroids like Pheraplex (PP) or one of the E...Max derivates. This is in fact an intriguing point. It has been suggested that SD may have stronger androgenic side effects then PP /Emax. Moreover, there was a sidenote from BigCat that delayed gyno has also been occasionally observed in people who were on "traditional" steroids (e.g. testosteron), which also have STRONG androgenic action. Taken together, The synergistical interplay of these said factors can be summed up as follows:
the stronger the estrogenic hyperactivity (induced by AI) AND the stronger the testosteron-hypoactivity is, the higher is the risk to develop delayed gyno. (It's again the RATIO)
This is in fact almost the same as was proposed in theory Nr.5, with the exception that the amount of testosteron-shutdown is more appreciated now.

So, my precluding thoughts are:
If you plan to do a cycly with a steroid that has strong androgenic action and if you are ANXIOUS to get gyno or if you ever had (pubertal) gyno or if you have a highly sensitized estrogenic system by one or more previous steroid cycles, than you should at least THINK about using or not using AIs for your PCT because Ais seems to add to the risk to get gyno.

EDIT: Bloute just remembered me to mention the DHEA-problem:
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The intake of DHEA to support PCT is a standard recommendation in the Superdol and PCT threads. However, BifCat pointed to the fact that during PCT, the intake of an additional steroid or pro-steroid might slow down the recovery of the testosterone-production. If that holds true, than the addition of DHEA will even further impair the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio during and after PCT and by that further increase the risk to get delayed gyno. That was a very good pont. Unfortunately we don't have enough data. I know that 2 of the 11 subjects I mentioned above did take DHEA. Perhaps these guys could post that information here.


plus clomid stops this at the start, that is the progestin related gyno, with superdrol clomid is better , there are other threads on it
regards russian i sent you a private message miz xxl
 
you want at least 100 mg first day clomid all at once, and after, 60 or so tapering down so by the 3 rd week you can be on 20 mg or so, with fenugreek too its very cheap.
did you get my PM?
Dont take for long,not at high doses, one other thing, if the lump persists or gets worse your going to have to use letrozol.
let us know on here how it goes, and what happening.
russian
 
Ya, I am guessing that I should prolly start the Nolva that I have just so I can have something until the clomid comes in..Should that also be taken all at once? Hopefully I should have the clomid by Fri or early next week
 
russianstar said:
stop the cycle add clomid not not not nolva ok

if you only have nolva do you have any dht converting compounds like winny, anavar, etc, or even t,bol, these stop progestin, wich is the gyno caused by superdrol,

superdrol does not aromatize ok, but it is a progestin like tren, this means its form of gyno is far more aggresive and normaly shows itself from 3 weeks up until 2 months

stop the cycle start pct, if you use nolva, try and by clomid too, nolva can actualy antagonize and make progestin related gyno worse, be carefull man, just looking out for you, do a search for superdrol pct,
one more thing get some fenugreek and add it too pct quickly,
Click to expand...
Where does everyone keep coming up with "superdrol is a progestin," "superdrol gyno is progestin-gyno"? Superdrol is di-methyl-DHT!! Does anyone have any evidence that superdrol causes progestin-related gyno? It's not modified at C19 (19-nor).

Clomid will probably not assist in gynecomastia (does most of its work at the hypothalamus & pituitary), but is great for stimulating the HPTA. Raloxifene/Evista is probably the best choice. I don't know all of the data on toremifene to comment on it.

russianstar is right if you were dealing with progestin issues, tamox/nolva is not the best option, as it can be agonistic to PRs in breast tissue (I don't recall at what doses, and I believe it was temporary).


russianstar said:
did you read what i said? nolva antagonizes the progestin related gyno!!!!!!
Click to expand...
I think you meant agonizes.


russianstar said:
yes for aromatizing steroids yes, superdrol, and h drol dont aromatize, they cannot,

I.) THE DATA
----------------------------
----------------------------

PLease first view...
Click to expand...
The data that "Dr.P" collected in that thread regarding me did not come directly from me. I don't know how he came to the conclusion that there was no SERM for me, but I corrected that on pg. 4,324 or something of that thread.



*** I'm not picking on you russianstar, I was just able to comment on your posts
 
no no its good what you say,
ive seen a few studies and first hand that clomid is a much better pct for superdrol, yes its a dht, wich means the gyno it causes, if it happens is not going to be the same as caused by an aromatizing compound, i said a progestin, because in many instances that was the general feeling.
as regards my use of the word antagonize, even though im russian, my understanding of english is fairly good, i used that word, because if somone antagonizes you, you feel irritated, hence the nolva antagonizes the effects of the gyno.

one more thing
Where does everyone keep coming up with "superdrol is a progestin," "superdrol gyno is progestin-gyno"? Superdrol is di-methyl-DHT!! Does anyone have any evidence that superdrol causes progestin-related gyno? It's not modified at C19 (19-nor). it hasnt been proven for sure either way, but it seems more likely that the phantom gyno, that some people get, that is caused by superdrol, must be progestin related, like you said, its dht,
dht steroids like winny and anavar stop progestin related gyno, it is beleived, so that means superdrol cant be a progestin, so what causes the gyno? bad pct, too much estrogen.
get the test levels up quick, dont use nolva, use clomid, what you think mass 69? your thoughts?
 
He asked me if I took steroids and I said no..I did tell him that I took a compound called Superdrol and he said that he doesnt know anything about it. I asked if I could get a hormone test to see what my test and estrogen was at and he said that wasnt necessary.

Pantara101 I was experiencing soreness and tenderness before starting the cycle. This is why I went to see the doctor, but the symptoms have increased since Fri which was the start of my superdrol cycle. So are you thinking this could no be gyno or delayed gyno?
 
Basically anytime I mentioned to my doctor that I was taking any kind of suppliments he just said stop using them because there not FDA approved. So he really isnt willing to help me I am slowly starting to understand. I did make an appt to see another doc but cant get in to see him till the end of next month
 
you will be ok, dont worry, stop the cycle and do a good pct, plenty of vitamin b too. it helps balance your hormones quicker.
 
MizXXL said:
Basically anytime I mentioned to my doctor that I was taking any kind of suppliments he just said stop using them because there not FDA approved. So he really isnt willing to help me I am slowly starting to understand. I did make an appt to see another doc but cant get in to see him till the end of next month
Click to expand...

:rofl: my mom told me the same thing...
 
MizXXL said:
Pantara101 I was experiencing soreness and tenderness before starting the cycle. This is why I went to see the doctor, but the symptoms have increased since Fri which was the start of my superdrol cycle. So are you thinking this could no be gyno or delayed gyno?
Click to expand...

Idk what it is or isn't.I was just thinking since a doctor said it wasn't,theirs a good chance it it's not gyno.However,you should of told him you took a steroid,like "well some say superdrol is a steroid,but it's legal for whatever reason."That may have got him into looking a little deeper.He may have dismissed it thinking you're just paranoid.They deal with paranoid people making false accusations of themselves all the time.I jave read p-5-p is better than b vitamins 50mg 1-3 times a day.It's what vitamin b converts to.You could also get bulk l-dopa,I'm going to be using both during upcomming cycle and pct.
 
pantera101 said:
Idk what it is or isn't.I was just thinking since a doctor said it wasn't,theirs a good chance it it's not gyno.However,you should of told him you took a steroid,like "well some say superdrol is a steroid,but it's legal for whatever reason."That may have got him into looking a little deeper.He may have dismissed it thinking you're just paranoid.They deal with paranoid people making false accusations of themselves all the time.I jave read p-5-p is better than b vitamins 50mg 1-3 times a day.It's what vitamin b converts to.You could also get bulk l-dopa,I'm going to be using both during upcomming cycle and pct.
Click to expand...

P-5-P is the coenzyme or "activated" form of B6
 
russianstar said:
...it hasnt been proven for sure either way, but it seems more likely that the phantom gyno, that some people get, that is caused by superdrol, must be progestin related, like you said, its dht,
dht steroids like winny and anavar stop progestin related gyno, it is beleived, so that means superdrol cant be a progestin, so what causes the gyno? bad pct, too much estrogen.
get the test levels up quick, dont use nolva, use clomid, what you think mass 69? your thoughts?
Click to expand...
This one has puzzled me for a long time.

Think about this:

superdrol is 5a-reduced and does not aromatize - so no additional estrogen from SD

superdrol will eventually shutdown testosterone - one of the males' main prohormone to estrogens, so that should decrease estrogen

the original write-up of SD clearly states that it's not progestational (also calls it anti-estrogenic) - progesterone needs the presense of estrogen to "activate" gyno, and we assume estrogen is already lowered while on w/SD.

Very similar structured compounds such as drostanolone & mestanolone are not associated w/gyno

Drostanolone - 2a-methyl-17ß-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one
Superdrol - 2a,17a-dimethyl-17ß-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one
Mestanolone - 17a-methyl-17ß-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one

But then again, Anadrol is a 17a-methyl-5a-androstane-3-one, and there are reports of gyno with it (in which the causes have been disputed forever). I do believe I remember reading that anadrol actually binds to estrogen receptors.


I had theorized back in the day that since it is accepted that superdrol possesses great glycogen storing properties, and some report going hypoglycemic from it, prolactin may have played a role. Hypoglycemia can cause an increase in prolactin. That theory was debunked by Dr. D, but I don't recall why at the moment. Also, I had bloodwork done (albeit post-PCT) while the nips still were hurting, and prolactin came back in the normal range.
 
awesome mass 69, that theory is similar to mine, it needs to be cased studied, then hopefully have a definitive awnser. thanks for that though very intresting!!!
 
maynehood171 said:
P-5-P is the coenzyme or "activated" form of B6
Click to expand...

It's what has been recomended to me and others for whatever reason.I also heard theirs no neg sides with p-5-p like nerve damage.Which their is with high doses of b vitamins.I don't think you have to ake hidh doses though.What was reccomended to me is what it says on the p-5-p bottle.
 
MizXXL said:
Ya, I am guessing that I should prolly start the Nolva that I have just so I can have something until the clomid comes in..Should that also be taken all at once? Hopefully I should have the clomid by Fri or early next week
Click to expand...
I've never seen a more confusing compound, I've seen soo many conflicting posts I don't know what to believe now, some say it's prolactin, some say estrogen rebound some say progesterone. Some say don't use novla in a PCt because it upregulated progesterone receptors, 3 months after the cycle in still having issues and have no idea how to fix, caber did nothing, clomid or novla did nothing, letrozole or armidex did nothing. Yet my nipples swell and contract throughout the day like there's an imbalance, blood work looks ok also , don't feel any hard gyno lumps but the nipple swells up in heat
 
cofigure8759!! said:
I've never seen a more confusing compound, I've seen soo many conflicting posts I don't know what to believe now, some say it's prolactin, some say estrogen rebound some say progesterone. Some say don't use novla in a PCt because it upregulated progesterone receptors, 3 months after the cycle in still having issues and have no idea how to fix, caber did nothing, clomid or novla did nothing, letrozole or armidex did nothing. Yet my nipples swell and contract throughout the day like there's an imbalance, blood work looks ok also , don't feel any hard gyno lumps but the nipple swells up in heat
Click to expand...
truly, necromancer

What did you run (brand and dose), how long, are you still running it, did you already start pct, finish PCT? did you stack with a test base or anything else?

when did the gyno kick in, how long has it been since the symptoms started? You've obviously thrown the kitchen sink at it...I'm guessing you already had some pre-existing gyno already?
 
delsolrob said:
truly, necromancer

What did you run (brand and dose), how long, are you still running it, did you already start pct, finish PCT? did you stack with a test base or anything else?

when did the gyno kick in, how long has it been since the symptoms started? You've obviously thrown the kitchen sink at it...I'm guessing you already had some pre-existing gyno already?
Click to expand...
I used test 300- 350 most weeks for 11 weeks and week 11-13 ran 25 mg superdrol daily . Got some bad lower back pumps and the gyno was non existent, I took picture and noticed early the nipple was enlarged but it didn't seem like gyno ai I used now and again. Gyno really appeared the first day of pct when I added clomid and novladex I've been off three months now and basically lost 10kg of muscle lost everything and look exactly how I did before cycle , despite training X3 per week and trying to keep my calories high after a while my strength was really dropping and I was gaining fat at the same time so I had to drop the calories . I also used HCG throughout it was trig brand everything else med tech but my friend who's an iffbb pro he uses the same brand. Did a pregnancy test on the HCG and it came out positive so it's legit if possibly under dosed . 250iu X3 per week and I got bad atrophy still so maybe that's why I lost the muscle .
 
delsolrob said:
truly, necromancer

What did you run (brand and dose), how long, are you still running it, did you already start pct, finish PCT? did you stack with a test base or anything else?

when did the gyno kick in, how long has it been since the symptoms started? You've obviously thrown the kitchen sink at it...I'm guessing you already had some pre-existing gyno already?
Click to expand...
Never experienced gyno ever not on anadrol or test as high as 300mg, superdrol was the worst compound I've ever used.. still messed up months later proper depressed too. I tried to get raloxifene but can't source it know it might be better for gyno also had normal prolactin but still at the upper end caber did nothinf
 
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