Summary of experiences with World abs 60% icariin horny goat weed.

[Wagner83]

I tested the 60 % icariin hgw and here is a review of the product, hopefully it is useful:



First the effects were obvious after 3 weeks on the supplement , I did not always take three caps (suggested dosage) during the first few weeks.



Very obvious effects :


_ Mood was enhanced.

_ Libido was up.

_ Confidence and drive were up .

_ Lots of hair in the shower.

_ More body and facial hair.

_ Erections were maintained easily (even without stimulation).

_ Penis was fuller.

_ More morning wood (I very rarely have them).

_ Athletic performances were vastly improved. I normally struggle with exercise induced asthma/allergies, and prompt shortness of breath .

At this time I felt like I could finally run properly and reach my potential, I sprinted a lot and had no need to stop. This is quite exceptional to behonest!

_ Muscles spasms and tensions around bed time/waking up. This was crazy I did not know it was from the hgw at the time, I thought I had Parkinson's disease rofl!

_ During my first week off it I noticed the positive effects gradually tapered down to none.


Now on to the dark side of the moon:

Negative effects which could well be attributed to the supplement:


_ Very weird sensations happening in the chest , they were related to breathing (more difficult) and possibly muscles. This happened a few times. It never happened before and has not happened since. Bronchospasms? Not sure.


_ One week after discontinuing the hgw , I exercised again, and once I was done, at rest, experienced important tacchycardia to the point of unpleasant sensations in the left arm, some tensions in the jaw .
This had never happened before and has not happened since .


What could be attributed to the supplement:



_ Testicles shrank once off the hgw, to a very small size, they may have been bigger while on it.
You should know I had never paid too much attention to them before, but now they're bigger (normal?) again. Icariin has been said to have testosterone mimetic properties and then I also read it was a mistake , icariin actually enchances natural production.


_ I lost hair for a good while off it, this could have been triggered by the hgw among other stuff (little tweaks in diet and supplements)


I highly doubt the effects on erections were connected with the pde5 inhibitor role of icariin as I had tried 10 mg cialis a few times with little to no success. Acetylcholinesterase has been mentioned, or just the testosterone boosting stuff.



It was only a while after discontinuing the hgw that I became aware high dose and/or long term use of hgw is connected with respiratory arrest and important muscles spasms.

For good information, here are sources:

naturaldatabase.therapeuticresearch.com/nd/PrintVersion.aspx?id=699

Area1255x has an interesting article on icariin that hopefully he'll share .

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3551978/



Area1255x The Matrix anyoneinterestedinthethread

1) Do you guys have any idea as to why icariin/hgw trigger spasms, tensed muscles ?

2) Could these be connected with the respiratory arrests reported or the weird breathing/chest experience I had a few times?

3) Are the testosterone mimetic properties true (I read it was an old mistake from a study that kept being repeated over and over), and if so, isn't icariin suppressive? (balls became very small once off it ).

From the ncbi link:

Interestingly, in the one prior study demonstrating changes in serum T with ICA, there were no significant perturbations in LH and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) level in rats in any of the treatment arms [4]; this result is similar to our own. It is implied that regardless of its effects on serum T, ICA does not impact pituitary LH expression. It is possible that ICA may influence aromatase or 5-alpha reductase activity in vivo and thereby modulate serum T levels without directly impacting LH secretion. It is clear that further research will be required to elucidate the impact and mechanisms of cavernous nerve injury and/or ICA therapy on T metabolism.

Overall the side effects do make it very tricky to use for me, but, if one can use the extract without those , and use it for a few months he may enjoy the real deal herbal wise and get permanent positive effects from it ( area's research) or die . It surely was potent.

Afaik many of the reported effects are similar to using dht (spiked?).

Swanson carry a 50% extract , it would be interesting to compare it to world abs (anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/285264-worldabs.html).

 

[smith_69]

great review here bro and didn't know about the spasms and respiratory. I never heard of the issues with the jaw either but
Danes can you shed some light on this?

 

[Danes]

great review here bro and didn't know about the spasms and respiratory. I never heard of the issues with the jaw either but
Danes can you shed some light on this?

Personaly, I am looking at Icariin more as an N.O booster than Testosterone boosting ingredient. It would actually reduce spasm and should not give any respiratory arrest either. But it is not just icariin in HGW so thats why higher % of Icariin is better

 

[Wagner83]

Yes I suspect these effects are from different components of the plant. The respiratory arrest is the more worrying thing by far.

I think the testosterone boosting properties of such an extract (world abs, swanson, although swanson sends quite old bottles) should not to be underestimated but can't prove it except for my personal experience with this extract. It has interesting properties for osteoporosis, and it's neurotrophic as well. Not to mention the pde5 inhibiting effects which, area says, may become semi permanent if used for long time.

mdidea.com/products/herbextract/icariin/data04.html

Research has shown that Horny Goat Weed can inhibit an enzyme called acetylcholinesterase (AChE). AChE rapidly stops neurotransmission at cholinergic synapses like those found in the brain and at neuromuscular junctions, which are needed for speedy responses in the neuromuscular system. By inhibiting AChE,Horny Goat Weed supports higher levels of the key cholinergic neurotransmitters associated with sexual arousal.

Maybe this could explain the muscles spasms and respiratory arrest, see here why :

reference.com/science/importance-acetylcholinesterase-muscle-cell-contraction-3339599a7030148c#

 

[Wagner83]

What about its role in muscle spasms and respiratory arrest? Is that from Acetylcholinestearase inhibition ?
I mean the best effects seem to happen after using the product for a few months and , from my own experience, it's impossible to do so. For example it's difficult to gauge when the muscles spasms and tensions may become dangerous.

 

[Wagner83]

Mm interesting , it was clear the loading of enough hgw/icariin over a few weeks produced important spasms.

Is there any way around this or any way to avoid reaching breathing failure? Maybe some form of cycling would help, for example taking a few days off once in a while may reestablish a balance in neurotransmitters so we can start taking the extract from baseline . Not sure if we wouldn't lose all positive effects altogether though.

I'm not sure whether it has strong enough testosterone-mimetic properties to be suppressive, doubtful though.

Just rats, but from the ncbi link:

Interestingly, in the one prior study demonstrating changes in serum T with ICA, there were no significant perturbations in LH and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) level in rats in any of the treatment arms [4]; this result is similar to our own. It is implied that regardless of its effects on serum T, ICA does not impact pituitary LH expression. It is possible that ICA may influence aromatase or 5-alpha reductase activity in vivo and thereby modulate serum T levels without directly impacting LH secretion. It is clear that further research will be required to elucidate the impact and mechanisms of cavernous nerve injury and/or ICA therapy on T metabolism.

This would make sense given the changes I noticed while on it, icariin may have something to do with dht . Different doses led to very different effects.

 

[Wagner83]

I'd be very curious to see other members try this particular product . I did experience major spasms , maybe I'm just more sensitive to it .
The product in itself was very potent in the second half of the bottle. I'd suspect if one then takes a week off and continues the benefits should be excellent. The increase in stamina / ability to sprint (I suffer from asthma and allergies, mostly exercise induced asthma and struggle to sprint) was quite astounding, same for mood, energy , libido , feeling dominant (could have been a consequence of all the rest) and having great erections.
I see that hgw is anti asthmatic, this could explain the vast improvement in physical performance I noticed, what a shame it's not particularly safe long term or at high doses.

 

[Danes]

What about its role in muscle spasms and respiratory arrest?

If you ever experience one of those sides then its very clear the dose should be decreased.

I know HGW is used fof bronchitis and has also been used for asthma too

 

[Wagner83]

If you read the last few posts I explained how and why it could happen. The respiratory arrest does not come from asthma or bronchitis, as I said I was completely free of such symptoms while sprinting for the first time in my life. The respiratory arrest must be connected with the muscles spasms, icariin/hgw have a strong effect on acetycholinestearase.

See here: pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/TIB/cholinesterase.html

If acetylcholinesterase is unable to breakdown or remove acetylcholine, the muscle can continue to move uncontrollably.

Electrical impulses can fire away continuously unless the number of messages being sent through the synapse is limited by the action of cholinesterase. Repeated and unchecked firing of electrical signals can cause uncontrolled, rapid twitching of some muscles, paralyzed breathing, convulsions, and in extreme cases, death.

What was interesting is that I only used the recommended dose, so I'm probably prone to notice such effects quicker than the majority .. The customer service guy said it was the first time he heard about such a story (for what it's worth).

Area1255x has an article on high acetylcholine area1255.blogspot.fr/2016/03/symptoms-of-high-acetylcholine-levels.html :

Let me also say that what is ''high'' acetylcholine, may not be sufficient for another individual, due to genetic and receptor-concentration related differences. Some may have no side-effects or symptoms from raising acetylcholine x10 (!)...

In fact, elevated acetylcholine levels may produce no symptoms in a vast majority of individuals. Elevated acetylcholine is not guaranteed by any means to produce negative effects, and acetycholine produces different effects depending on the circumstance, and even the environment (!!)...

Does that mean most guys would not experience the same spasms as I did?

Since it was so effective at controlling asthma it's tempting to use it again for this purpose.

 

[Danes]

If you read the last few posts I explained how and why it could happen. The respiratory arrest does not come from asthma or bronchitis, as I said I was completely free of such symptoms while sprinting for the first time in my life. The respiratory arrest must be connected with the muscles spasms, icariin/hgw have a strong effect on acetycholinestearase.

See here: pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/TIB/cholinesterase.html



What was interesting is that I only used the recommended dose, so I'm probably prone to notice such effects quicker than the majority .. The customer service guy said it was the first time he heard about such a story (for what it's worth).

Area1255x has an article on high acetylcholine area1255.blogspot.fr/2016/03/symptoms-of-high-acetylcholine-levels.html :



Does that mean most guys would not experience the same spasms as I did?

Since it was so effective at controlling asthma it's tempting to use it again for this purpose.

Even if you took "recommended" dose it may be to much for you anyway.
bronchitis and asthma has nothing to do with respiratory arrest and i never said that either. Just mentioned because many countries are using it for that purpose and its quiet effective.

To answer your question, you are one of few who will get those sides such as spasm. Try to lower your dose and see if it still helps your asthma

 

[Wagner83]

Ok I misunderstood. Yes I'd like to use it for asthma as it worked extremely well, but the fact it's not recommended long term is a turn off, I wonder if they recommend against it just because of the potential spasms/respiratory arrest thing. A cheaper extract or a hgw tea should work too.
The recommended dose was too much for sure, I may try it an other time with less caps or more breaks, however I suspect the benefits would be greatly reduced.

 

[Danes]

Ok I misunderstood. Yes I'd like to use it for asthma as it worked extremely well, but the fact it's not recommended long term is a turn off, I wonder if they recommend against it just because of the potential spasms/respiratory arrest thing. A cheaper extract or a hgw tea should work too.
The recommended dose was too much for sure, I may try it an other time with less caps or more breaks, however I suspect the benefits would be greatly reduced.

I cant find anything else besides asthma and respiratory arrest which would be the main reason to cycle it.
Some may also experience rushes too.
Try to lower the dose and see how it works for asthma.

Which dose you were taking?

 

[Wagner83]

The recommended dose was 900 mg of hgw, which means 540 mg of icariin (a hefty amount!). I did not find anything else suggesting it shouldn't be used long term either , cycling it here and there could be all I need.
I tried to find info on how much hgw is recommended for asthma/bronchitis, it seems they use way more hgw than I did, about 6-15 grams daily :

goodearthnaturalfoods.com/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?storeID=pj102jrnhngt8g0qmpeq7ldc7gx6c2w2&DocID=bottomline-hornygoatweed
7-10 days off is recommended after each month of continuous use.

Just thought about this, I don't remember if I took all the caps at once or not, I don't think so and the effects seem to build up over time anyway.

 

[Danes]

The recommended dose was 900 mg of hgw, which means 540 mg of icariin (a hefty amount!). I did not find anything else suggesting it shouldn't be used long term either , cycling it here and there could be all I need.
I tried to find info on how much hgw is recommended for asthma/bronchitis, it seems they use way more hgw than I did, about 6-15 grams daily :

goodearthnaturalfoods.com/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?storeID=pj102jrnhngt8g0qmpeq7ldc7gx6c2w2&DocID=bottomline-hornygoatweed
7-10 days off is recommended after each month of continuous use.

Just thought about this, I don't remember if I took all the caps at once or not, I don't think so and the effects seem to build up over time anyway.

Yea, some people has sick tolerance while some gets worst sides even from mininum recommend dose

 

[Wagner83]

Yup!

An other potential benefit of epimedium:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3794657/

In summary, EFs extract from a herbal origin proved to be effective against the suppressive effects of GCs. EFs could be considered for clinical use to selectively counteract the side effects of GCs on the HPA axis, and thus provide an effective and safe alternative treatment.

An other valuable site with information on epimedium uses:

shen-nong.com/eng/herbal/xianlingpi.html#g

It works for histamine induced asthma in pigs (worked for me? ).

 

[Danes]

Yup!

An other potential benefit of epimedium:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3794657/



An other valuable site with information on epimedium uses:

shen-nong.com/eng/herbal/xianlingpi.html#g

It works for histamine induced asthma in pigs (worked for me? ).

Perfect for you

 

[hsk]

I have tried various bulk and capped 20%, 40% and 50% icariin extracts. From everything I've read and from personal experience, lower extracts feel "dirtier" possibly due to a higher amount of the other unknown constituents of the extract. Anything 50% and higher can also give side effects including muscle spasms, breathing problems, headaches, low bp, and visual disturbances. I have experienced all of these when taking a dose of more than 400mg of total active Icariin daily. Most of the dosing guidelines recommend 400mg-500mg of total Icariin actives daily as the optimal dosage. The negative sides one may or may not experience will most likely depend on each individuals own body chemistry, bodyweight, lean body mass, nutrition, diet, lifestyle, and training/recovery schedule.

In my experience with Icariin over the years, the best one to stick with is a good quality 40%-50% Icariin extract. My favorite is a 40% Icariin produced by Livelong Nutrition, and second would be the Swansons 50% Icariin. Although I've been curious about WorldABS 60% Icariin, i can't seem to pull the trigger due to the cost. When taking all things into consideration and after weighing the cost vs benefits, you get the best bang for your buck from a decent 40%-50% extract.

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks for chiming in. I posted about muscles spasms and breathing problems, I doubt it's connected to icariin itself. If you took 400mg of pure icariin it wouldn't happen (as I understand it), on the other hand taking a decent amount of the whole herb continuously may lead to such troubles. An other worry is the impact of hgw on thyroid if used long term, it could have been an other explanation for the hair loss I experienced.
I have Swanson 50% hgw and Worldabs, worldabs look like fresher herbs while swanson is really a yellow powder, if that makes sense. I did not give it a try yet , I could post pics of the two .

 

[hsk]

Thanks for chiming in. I posted about muscles spasms and breathing problems, I doubt it's connected to icariin itself. If you took 400mg of pure icariin it wouldn't happen (as I understand it), on the other hand taking a decent amount of the whole herb continuously may lead to such troubles. An other worry is the impact of hgw on thyroid if used long term, it could have been an other explanation for the hair loss I experienced.
I have Swanson 50% hgw and Worldabs, worldabs look like fresher herbs while swanson is really a yellow powder, if that makes sense. I did not give it a try yet , I could post pics of the two .

Color is not always a proper indicator of freshness or potency. The color of the powder has more to do with the amount of icariin and whatever excipient/flow agent they use. The higher the amount of icariin, the lighter the color should be for the extract itself. 40%-50% icariin should have a slightly brownish to yellowish color. 60% icariin on its own should be a very light yellow/off white.

 

[Wagner83]

I mostly meant the material in itself is different, I'll upload pics.

 

[hsk]

I mostly meant the material in itself is different, I'll upload pics.

Could be the extraction method too. World ABS claims a pure water extraction which combined with %60 icariin extraction would mean a lighter color powder. Most icariin extracts ranging from 10%-50% usually use ethanol or water/ethanol combination which is harsher than just water.

 

[Wagner83]

Left = Worldabs 60 %

Right=Swanson 50%

It's weird I don't remember the previous hgw of worldabs I had looked like this, I thought it was yellow with some green in it, it was some time ago though.

 

[Nir]

World abs 60% is of a 900 mg total so it's more like 540 mg per serving
Swanson 50% is of 300 mg so it's about 150 mg per serving.

So isn't there a huge difference between the 2 especially since the recommended mg per day is supposed to be over 400 for noticing any benefits? Or am I missing something?

 

[hsk]

World abs 60% is of a 900 mg total so it's more like 540 mg per serving
Swanson 50% is of 300 mg so it's about 150 mg per serving.

So isn't there a huge difference between the 2 especially since the recommended mg per day is supposed to be over 400 for noticing any benefits? Or am I missing something?

With a 50% extract that provides 150mg of active icariin per capsule, 3 caps would provide 450mg of active icariin. For myself, that was more than enough daily icariin. Anything over 400mg of icariin for myself causes sides such as headaches, low bp, and visual disturbances. If you are an average sized individual you will only need 400mg-500mg of active icariin daily. How much you need will depend on a few things such as you body chemistry, age, weight, etc. Also everyone will metabolize and process active substances differently dues to genetic differences and or dietary choices because this may alter cytochrome (CYP) enzymes. This is why there are general guidelines for dosages as this will be the dosage that the majority of averaged sized individual will respond to, but the only way to know for sure is to be a human lab rat and try different things and dosages out on yourself.

 

[Nir]

Ya but then the bottle goes from have 30 servings to only 10. So for a months serving I would need 3 bottles and at 25 a peace it comes to being 75$. Which is more then the 60% from worlds and which goes for 70(63 or 56 if you buy 2 or 4 bottles). So it seems more cost effective (and at 60% more optimal?) to buy the worlds right? Or is there something missing as in worlds is still not that known and the other one is more trusted?

 

[hsk]

Ya but then the bottle goes from have 30 servings to only 10. So for a months serving I would need 3 bottles and at 25 a peace it comes to being 75$. Which is more then the 60% from worlds and which goes for 70(63 or 56 if you buy 2 or 4 bottles). So it seems more cost effective (and at 60% more optimal?) to buy the worlds right? Or is there something missing as in worlds is still not that known and the other one is more trusted?

Sign up for Swanson's Newsletter/Mailing list. They run some kind of special every week. On average, at least once every month they run a 25% off discount on their own in house brands and also 10%/15%/20% on all other brands they carry. Also free shipping on orders over $50. If you time it right you can pick up 3 bottles when it's 25% off so $75 x 0.75 = $56.25 for 3 bottles plus free shipping. Also they have 1 year, 100%, money back guarantee and they pay the return shipping on it. You literally have nothing to lose.

 

[Nir]

The money back guarantee, will it work for when you use the bottles but it doesn't work for you? Or do you just get to return the full bottles.

 

[hsk]

The money back guarantee, will it work for when you use the bottles but it doesn't work for you? Or do you just get to return the full bottles.

Yes. Just return unused portion back to them and they will provide full refund.

 

[celc5]

I'm sure the OP is long gone from this thread. But it sounds like all of his symptoms were vasodilation (NO/pde5) related to me. Then respiratory issues simply returned after discontinuing. Just my 2 cents. Good discussion in this thread for an under rated sup

 

[Wagner83]

I'm sure the OP is long gone from this thread. But it sounds like all of his symptoms were vasodilation (NO/pde5) related to me. Then respiratory issues simply returned after discontinuing. Just my 2 cents. Good discussion in this thread for an under rated sup

That surely played a part as well since l-citrulline and other NO boosters will significantly worsen any asthma symptoms or breathing issues (see my other thread), but I still think the explanation of uncontrolled muscles holds true for some of these respiratory issues as I felt spasms both in the muscles and chest.

 

[Wagner83]

I'm sure the OP is long gone from this thread. But it sounds like all of his symptoms were vasodilation (NO/pde5) related to me. Then respiratory issues simply returned after discontinuing. Just my 2 cents. Good discussion in this thread for an under rated sup

I'm just rereading now and notice I did not understand the post well, the worrying respiratory issues were caused by the supplement (probably related to spasms) and got better off it. Improved physical performance may have been caused by various effects, but as I said boosting NO will often dramatically worsen asthma symptoms and breathing issues , I experienced that first hand.