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Suicide Inhibiter vs Nolva

JoeBrooklyn

JoeBrooklyn

Well-known member
I understand that while on any test cycle the body converts the test to estrogen, hence the need for some estrogen supressers. But I also understand that the body actually needs some estrogen to help the AAS be more anabolic. So my question is, should I use a Nolva or suicide inhibiter for estrogen supressers?
If I'm all wet on my assumptions please say so; but be polite.
 
They're a completely different class on ancillary. Nolva is a SERM and one is a specific kind of AI. Also, it is individualized as far as the need, if any, for estrogen modulation.
 
Rodja said:
They're a completely different class on ancillary. Nolva is a SERM and one is a specific kind of AI. Also, it is individualized as far as the need, if any, for estrogen modulation.
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So which is better for on cycle modulation? I want to make gains but not at the expense of being too shut down sexually. If I'm on Test libido shouldnt be a problem unless my estrogen is too high.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
So which is better for on cycle modulation? I want to make gains but not at the expense of being too shut down sexually. If I'm on Test libido shouldnt be a problem unless my estrogen is too high.
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These are very very basic questions. You have a lot of research to do. No one who knows what they're doing uses nolva during the cycle unless they develop gyno or are running anadrol (direct binding to estrogen receptor in breasts). If your libido is crap on a test cycle, usuallyestro is either too high or too low and your gains will be hindered; there is no trade off between low libido for better gains or vice versa. Libido can be a problem if estro is too low as well.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
So which is better for on cycle modulation? I want to make gains but not at the expense of being too shut down sexually. If I'm on Test libido shouldnt be a problem unless my estrogen is too high.
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If you have no libido while using wither of them, you either got fake product or are dosing them way too high.
 
jt339 said:
These are very very basic questions. You have a lot of research to do. No one who knows what they're doing uses nolva during the cycle unless they develop gyno or are running anadrol (direct binding to estrogen receptor in breasts). If your libido is crap on a test cycle, usuallyestro is either too high or too low and your gains will be hindered; there is no trade off between low libido for better gains or vice versa. Libido can be a problem if estro is too low as well.
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I was on a cycle where i was doing test:deca at 2:1, but later in the cycle stacked with anadrol and I was on nolva. But I did not know that low estrogen can cause libido problems. I guess I have to do blood work for estrogen as well? My blood work for test and prolactin is coming in on Friday; but if what youre saying is right, I will still need to know what my estrogen is.
 
Rodja said:
If you have no libido while using wither of them, you either got fake product or are dosing them way too high.
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Actually, i was using nolva while on a test:deca 2:1 cycle, later stacking with anadrol; but I was told that unless I want to look like a women I need to stop the nolva. So I did. I did the suicide inhibiter soon after but after about a week dropped it. My libido is ok (not great) while on until the very end of my 15 week cycle and then ofcourse during the first 3-4 weeks of PCT it's really down.

I've been off gear now for 6 1/2 weeks and have been off PCT for 2 1/2 weeks and only about 4 days ago felt 99% back with my libido. I took blood work on Monday and will get results Friday. I will keep you posted.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Actually, i was using nolva while on a test:deca 2:1 cycle, later stacking with anadrol; but I was told that unless I want to look like a women I need to stop the nolva. So I did. I did the suicide inhibiter soon after but after about a week dropped it. My libido is ok (not great) while on until the very end of my 15 week cycle and then ofcourse during the first 3-4 weeks of PCT it's really down.

I've been off gear now for 6 1/2 weeks and have been off PCT for 2 1/2 weeks and only about 4 days ago felt 99% back with my libido. I took blood work on Monday and will get results Friday. I will keep you posted.
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Whoever told you that was very, very wrong. Also, it seems like you have some confusion about AIs as they are not all the same. A suicidal inhibitor is a specific class of AI (e.g. Exemestane, Erase) and not all AI's are suicidal (e.g. Letro, Arimidex). The benefit of the suicidal inhibitor is that they do not need to be tapered since they permanently bind to the aromatase enzyme. From the sound of it, you dosed the AI (whichever one you took) too high and it lowered you libido since it lowered your E2 too much.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Actually, i was using nolva while on a test:deca 2:1 cycle, later stacking with anadrol; but I was told that unless I want to look like a women I need to stop the nolva. So I did. I did the suicide inhibiter soon after but after about a week dropped it. My libido is ok (not great) while on until the very end of my 15 week cycle and then ofcourse during the first 3-4 weeks of PCT it's really down.

I've been off gear now for 6 1/2 weeks and have been off PCT for 2 1/2 weeks and only about 4 days ago felt 99% back with my libido. I took blood work on Monday and will get results Friday. I will keep you posted.
Click to expand...

What was the layout of your cycle?
 
Rodja said:
Whoever told you that was very, very wrong. Also, it seems like you have some confusion about AIs as they are not all the same. A suicidal inhibitor is a specific class of AI (e.g. Exemestane, Erase) and not all AI's are suicidal (e.g. Letro, Arimidex). The benefit of the suicidal inhibitor is that they do not need to be tapered since they permanently bind to the aromatase enzyme. From the sound of it, you dosed the AI (whichever one you took) too high and it lowered you libido since it lowered your E2 too much.
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Well, I took Forma Stanzol as the suicide inhibiter. So youre saying that instead of nolva I should have done the Forma Stanzol but I probably over dosed on it?
 
jt339 said:
What was the layout of your cycle?
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I have to get the specifics later. I dont have it on me; but basically I started with 2:1 Test:Deca 22ccs;1cc twice per week, then in week three layered in Dbol (can't remember dose off hand), then in week 6 went stacked with Anadrol and week 9 stacked anavar (keeping in mind I tapered and then stopped dbol and anadrol). I rotated my test between all three tests, e, cyp and sust. I was supposed to be taking nolva the whole time but someone told me not to because it would turn me into a woman with a bikini. Sometime during the 8th or 9th I did some Cabergoline and the Forma Stanzol.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Well, I took Forma Stanzol as the suicide inhibiter. So youre saying that instead of nolva I should have done the Forma Stanzol but I probably over dosed on it?
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Without knowing specifics of the cycle, it's hard to say, but...

JoeBrooklyn said:
I have to get the specifics later. I dont have it on me; but basically I started with 2:1 Test:Deca 22ccs;1cc twice per week, then in week three layered in Dbol (can't remember dose off hand), then in week 6 went stacked with Anadrol and week 9 stacked anavar (keeping in mind I tapered and then stopped dbol and anadrol). I rotated my test between all three tests, e, cyp and sust. I was supposed to be taking nolva the whole time but someone told me not to because it would turn me into a woman with a bikini. Sometime during the 8th or 9th I did some Cabergoline and the Forma Stanzol.
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Gauging off of this, it was not a well organized and thought-out cycle.
 
Honestly man do some research before your next cycle. Some major errors there...and do NOT believe anything from that source who told u take nolva with 19-nor, 3-4 different esters of test etc.
 
Warwarrior said:
Honestly man do some research before your next cycle. Some major errors there...and do NOT believe anything from that source who told u take nolva with 19-nor, 3-4 different esters of test etc.
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I am as we speak. I'm reading up on Nolva now and it seems to do what I think I want. To modulate E2 not eliminate it completely as some is needed for muscle growth and too low E2 can cause libido problems. My question now is, why would anyone want to use a suicide inhibitor then?
 
Rodja said:
How do you know you'll need Cab or even an AI for that matter?
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3 weeks into my last cycle my prolactin levels were above average. If I do the 2:1 Test:Deca again I know I will need caber. As for AI, I dont know if I will need it; but I do know that test converts to estrogen and therefore I will need an AI.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
I am as we speak. I'm reading up on Nolva now and it seems to do what I think I want. To modulate E2 not eliminate it completely as some is needed for muscle growth and too low E2 can cause libido problems. My question now is, why would anyone want to use a suicide inhibitor then?
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You're attributing too much on the class of AI instead of the dose and you were running so much that it is impossible to pinpoint the cause of anything.

JoeBrooklyn said:
3 weeks into my last cycle my prolactin levels were above average. If I do the 2:1 Test:Deca again I know I will need caber. As for AI, I dont know if I will need it; but I do know that test converts to estrogen and therefore I will need an AI.
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Did you get blood work to prove this or were you going off of "feel." Also, you're making the mistake of thinking estrogen is the devil without realizing there are benefits to estrogen and the aromatization amounts vary from person to person.
 
Rodja said:
You're attributing too much on the class of AI instead of the dose and you were running so much that it is impossible to pinpoint the cause of anything.



Did you get blood work to prove this or were you going off of "feel." Also, you're making the mistake of thinking estrogen is the devil without realizing there are benefits to estrogen and the aromatization amounts vary from person to person.
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I don't know what the exact does of Forma Stanzol was, the bittle says 3 or 4 pumps but that seemed too little so I took more. As for Prolactin, yes, i got bllod work done 3 weeks into my cycle. I recently got blood work again and will have the results tomorrow.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
I am as we speak. I'm reading up on Nolva now and it seems to do what I think I want. To modulate E2 not eliminate it completely as some is needed for muscle growth and too low E2 can cause libido problems. My question now is, why would anyone want to use a suicide inhibitor then?
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Aromasin won't completely eliminate estrogen, it just binds to the enzyme that converts test to estro. How much estro that is left is dose dependent.

JoeBrooklyn said:
Yes I do smarty pants. I took 2ccs of either Sustanon 250, or Prop 100 or Ethan 300. And 1cc of Deca 300.
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Oh my lanta! Before your next cycle (which should be a bit down the road) post up the entire thing once you think you have a good grasp on things.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Yes I do smarty pants. I took 2ccs of either Sustanon 250, or Prop 100 or Ethan 300. And 1cc of Deca 300.
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You do realize that each one of those will give very different amounts of testosterone per cc/mL, right? You have NO CLUE as to what you're doing.
 
jt339 said:
Aromasin won't completely eliminate estrogen, it just binds to the enzyme that converts test to estro. How much estro that is left is dose dependent.

Yes, I figured that. What dosage do you recomend?

Oh my lanta! Before your next cycle (which should be a bit down the road) post up the entire thing once you think you have a good grasp on things.
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Ok, I will post it soon.
 
Rodja said:
You do realize that each one of those will give very different amounts of testosterone per cc/mL, right? You have NO CLUE as to what you're doing.
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No, I did not. So you're saying that the 250, 100 and 300 will be different which will not nesessarily give me the 2:1 ratio I want?
 
Warwarrior said:
Honestly man do some research before your next cycle. Some major errors there...and do NOT believe anything from that source who told u take nolva with 19-nor, 3-4 different esters of test etc.
Click to expand...

Running nolva with a 19-nor is fine. When will people stop regurgitating the same old nonsense.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
No, I did not. So you're saying that the 250, 100 and 300 will be different which will not nesessarily give me the 2:1 ratio I want?
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Yes. They are all very different forms of testosterone in terms of their half/active life, amount per cc, and amount of actual testosterone per cc.
 
Rodja said:
Yes. They are all very different forms of testosterone in terms of their half/active life, amount per cc, and amount of actual testosterone per cc.
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**** we can take it a step further and say if you are using UG aas than the concentration should be looked at as an arbitrary number. You don't know if that 300mg/ml is 150 or 350(for example). It's only a reflection of what's in that specific batch/bottle.

You think you are taking 600mg a week. Maybe you are taking 400,maybe 700.

Who knows.

I think this is where experience comes in.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Frank, if what you say is true then how the heck can i ever accuratley dose?
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If? What I say is certainly true. You'd have to understand the brewing process and the general lack of attention to detail with ug "labs" to fully understand. Not to mention the purity of the raw materials which no one has any clue of because there is no testing done.

I have seen plenty of lab tests on ug gear over the years and it is rarely dead on. I mean even pharmacy grade gear has a certain level of variation, it's just much smaller.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
If? What I say is certainly true. You'd have to understand the brewing process and the general lack of attention to detail with ug "labs" to fully understand. Not to mention the purity of the raw materials which no one has any clue of because there is no testing done.

I have seen plenty of lab tests on ug gear over the years and it is rarely dead on. I mean even pharmacy grade gear has a certain level of variation, it's just much smaller.
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The brewing process is simple and easy. If it's not accurate, someone is either deliberately trying to con you or they got bad raws. Most raws don't come with a CoA and it's rare to get one from a supplier unless you're buying kilos of the stuff.
 
Rodja said:
The brewing process is simple and easy. If it's not accurate, someone is either deliberately trying to con you or they got bad raws. Most raws don't come with a CoA and it's rare to get one from a supplier unless you're buying kilos of the stuff.
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It is, on a small scale fairly easy to get "close" pending your raws have a high level of purity. But becomes increasingly less accurate on the large scale especially when most of these guys are always rushing.

As for the coa I'd never trust a coa from china let alone on a black market product. Lol
 
Frank, if that is your experience then your labs you use are ****. I know this stuff happens, but with a good source and a good supplier the deviation from batch to batch should be extremely small. My guy that I use as well as my close friends is always spot on. Our labs come out nearly identical every time with respect to the dose we are using. I know we can't test all the compounds, but if the test is consistent, it is likely his other stuff is too. I have had zero complaints since I started using him. However, I have dealt with quite a few labs that have been very spotty so just keep looking and you'll find a good one.

Joe, an attitude like you have right now will get you far in this game. This kind of stuff gets really frustrating to guys like Rodja and I (no offense), but if you can sit there and take it like a champ (and you are doing just that) you will learn a lot. We won't spoon feed you everything, but if you do your research and you come back with questions that have showed you're doing your homework, I will have no problem answering questions and I'm sure Rodja feels the same.
 
jt339 said:
Frank, if that is your experience then your labs you use are ****. I know this stuff happens, but with a good source and a good supplier the deviation from batch to batch should be extremely small. My guy that I use as well as my close friends is always spot on. Our labs come out nearly identical every time with respect to the dose we are using. I know we can't test all the compounds, but if the test is consistent, it is likely his other stuff is too. I have had zero complaints since I started using him. However, I have dealt with quite a few labs that have been very spotty so just keep looking and you'll find a good one.

Joe, an attitude like you have right now will get you far in this game. This kind of stuff gets really frustrating to guys like Rodja and I (no offense), but if you can sit there and take it like a champ (and you are doing just that) you will learn a lot.
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Lol I do just fine ;)

If you and a friend are using the same gear no **** your "labs" should come out close.

The fact is that doesn't tell you the concentration. The fact is you have no clue to that.

Secondly most people are using mass produced garbage. Not small private labs ;)

Again back before ORD when people could test gear you'd see the large variations in batches. This hasn't changed.

And I'm not saying it's all underdossd. Sometimes it's overdosed. My point is we have no clue.

The point was if you're splitting hairs on ester weights you may as well understand that 250mg might be 275, 215,etc . could be anything.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
Lol I do just fine ;)

If you and a friend are using the same gear no **** your "labs" should come out close.


The fact is that doesn't tell you the concentration. The fact is you have no clue to that.
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I have tested my bloods through various different labs. My current one matches the dose for a given concentration (roughly) every time. Every other lab I have used at the current dose has either tested about the same as this one or lower. The difference is, this one has an extremely small deviation and always comes out to about the same where a lot of the other ones tend to fluctuate more. I normally use 700 a week and that puts my total test around 5200.


Secondly most people are using mass produced garbage. Not small private labs ;)
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Won't deny that. I can think of a large amount of big labs that are ****, but still make money.

Again back before ORD when people could test gear you'd see the large variations in batches. This hasn't changed.
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I can't disprove this as I haven't tested anything other than test, but my current guy has produced the best of every kind of gear I have ever tried.

And I'm not saying it's all underdossd. Sometimes it's overdosed. My point is we have no clue.
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I have never seen over dosed gear, personally. You should have a clue on test as you can still test this.

The point was if you're splitting hairs on ester weights you may as well understand that 250mg might be 275, 215,etc . could be anything.
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If it is produced properly, about 75% of test enth is actual test and 84% of prop is actual test. I can't speculate on the others as I have not looked into them.

Gotta go study. Will be back to discuss later.
 
jt339 said:
I have tested my bloods through various different labs. My current one matches the dose for a given concentration (roughly) every time. Every other lab I have used at the current dose has either tested about the same as this one or lower. The difference is, this one has an extremely small deviation and always comes out to about the same where a lot of the other ones tend to fluctuate more. I normally use 700 a week and that puts my total test around 5200.

Won't deny that. I can think of a large amount of big labs that are ****, but still make money.

I can't disprove this as I haven't tested anything other than test, but my current guy has produced the best of every kind of gear I have ever tried.
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I'm not talking about blood test. I'm talking about the ability to test the finished product for exact concentration. Before ORD we had the ability to have gear tested.

Blood tests are good for consistency and rough approximations but not going to give you specifics.

There are some very good, consistent small labs. But even with them you'll see variations. It's not exact. If they're good it might be off an amount that is insignificant.

To reiterate.... we don't know. And that was the point.

I have seen pharmaceutical gear off 10-20mg.

If you've ever used icn's each amp is over filled to 1.2-1.3ml. So either the concentration is off or the total amount of gear is off.
 
Thank you jt, i just started with this two cycles ago. Before that i tried PH and had a horrible experience. I dont know how old you guys are but i am 43 and before 3 years ago i body builded for years and never used anything. I only turned to test and aas now because as you know as you get older your test levels are less and you cant build the way you did when you were younger. By the same token, at natural levels of only 500 test which is mormal at my age, any shut down can cause serious libido problems and at my age i need all the help with libido i can get.
I am not in the medical field so all this is Greek to me. I am an accountant and im good with numbers and stats and taxes but this area i have alot to learn so bare with my ignorance.
On another note, being that we are now accepting gay marriage, marajuana im still baffled by our societys aversion for test and aas. Why not let us take it? Body builders should for a PAC.
 
Steroids only became illegal after athletes were using it to get an advantage in sports. If I recall correctly, that legislation was passed very quickly and no new research had come out about the "dangers" of use. So basically, they were made illegal not because of their effects on the body (well known for 30-40 years), but because it gave athletes an advantage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is pretty close to accurate if it isn't completely.

Prolactin is a little higher than what I would want. I'd definitely shoot for single digits, low single digits would be even better.
 
Isnt the point of sports to be the best? Tiger Woods had eye surgery to make his eye sight better than 20/20, should they ban that? Besides, if the sports orgs want to ban it for the sports, thats their business, 85% of people who use are not pro athletes.
I didnt check for estrogen because i didnt know that low estrogen was bad. But i had another blood test and they will now test for estrogen and cholseterol.
For the prolactin reading of 14, i have Caber on hand to use.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
Running nolva with a 19-nor is fine. When will people stop regurgitating the same old nonsense.
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Yeah its fine allright but it doesnt do u any favors if u r experiencing sides from prolactin/progestrone.

I dont understand why the hell should people eat nolva with 19nors just for the reason "its fine". Control your estros and keep Caber in hand when doing 19nors
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Isnt the point of sports to be the best? Tiger Woods had eye surgery to make his eye sight better than 20/20, should they ban that? Besides, if the sports orgs want to ban it for the sports, thats their business, 85% of people who use are not pro athletes.
I didnt check for estrogen because i didnt know that low estrogen was bad. But i had another blood test and they will now test for estrogen and cholseterol.
For the prolactin reading of 14, i have Caber on hand to use.
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I believe it was the Olympics in 1988 when the guy who won tested positive for winstrol (i think). If it happened in golf, I doubt anyone would have cared, but the whole world was watching so they figured they had to do something.
 
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