Strength Cycle Critique?

[Whittenator]

Stats:
Age: 22
Height: 5,10
Weight: 185
BF %: ~12

Lifting Stats:
Bench: 345
Squat: 450
Deadlift: 585

CYCLE
Weeks 1-4
Epi-Strong @ 45mg Daily
Dermacrine @ 2 pumps AM/PM
Forged Liver Support
HcGenerate
Turmeric
Creatine

PCT
Weeks 5-8
Raloxifene 60mg daily
HcGenerate
Forged Post Cycle
Liquidex AI
DAA

My goals are for pure strength gains, if you guys have any advice on what i can do or change differently please don't be afraid to let me know. I want to do this as safe and efficient as possible.

 

[WhiteGuy]

Get a SERM for PCT

 

[Mystere3]

Get a SERM for PCT

This.

You could also run epi at 60 if you so chose.

 

[Whittenator]

Get a SERM for PCT

Will the "Aromatase Inhibitor" I have not block the site? If not then im going to go with Raloxifene at 60mg daily, just curious. I just figured it would since its supposed to be more potent than a "Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator".

 

[Whittenator]

This.

You could also run epi at 60 if you so chose.

If i ran it at 60 then the one bottle would only last 22 days. I would have to get another bottle. This will be my first PH by the way, from what I have researched I think the 45mg a day will give me great results.

 

[Whittenator]

Also how do you guys think the Dermacrine(MrSupps) will help the cycle? It's a new PH lotion

 

[Mystere3]

You need to do more research before you start a cycle.

The point of the SERM is that it binds to the estrogen receptor weakly, causing fewer effects, while preventing estrogen from binding; it also helps restart the hpta. serms don't lower serum estrogen levels and may even increase them; you may need an AI in addition to a SERM.

Will the "Aromatase Inhibitor" I have not block the site? If not then im going to go with Raloxifene at 60mg daily, just curious. I just figured it would since its supposed to be more potent than a "Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator".

 

[Whittenator]

You need to do more research before you start a cycle.

The point of the SERM is that it binds to the estrogen receptor weakly, causing fewer effects, while preventing estrogen from binding; it also helps restart the hpta. serms don't lower serum estrogen levels and may even increase them; you may need an AI in addition to a SERM.

I've done my research, I've got Raloxifene in there and a natural AI(Liquidex AI)...thinking about switching that out with Forma Stanzol.

 

[Mystere3]

Didn't see that; should work at that dosing for a mild cycle like epi although it's normally dosed 120/120/60/60 ime.

I'd use forma; I heard liquidex is powerful but you'll prolly do just fine with forma and it has nice strength benefits too.

 

[Whittenator]

Didn't see that; should work at that dosing for a mild cycle like epi although it's normally dosed 120/120/60/60 ime.

I'd use forma; I heard liquidex is powerful but you'll prolly do just fine with forma and it has nice strength benefits too.

Thanks for the advice man, might as well get 2 bottles of the epi-strong then. It already has some anti-E properties in it too. So i shouldn't have to work about gyno problems on cycle. But if im going to bump it up that high i might want to use forma Stanzol during cycle. However, the dermacrine also has anti-E properties. But im going to order some arimidex and if i see any puffiness or tenderness ill start running that at 12.5mg EOD.

 

[Mystere3]

Btw I meant the raloxifene is dosed that high. I wouldn't run epi at 120 mg/day, certainly not for your first cycle in any case.

I think 60 mg solo is reasonable though and given you're a pretty big guy to start it's not a bad idea to run it at 60/60/60/60.

 

[907Genetics]

Chances of getting gyno from epistane is pretty small on cycle expecially at a lower dose, more likely gonna happen post cycle, and imo i would have something stronger on hand than a natural AI, I doubt some herbs will lower your estrogen enough to rid of your gyno if you feel it coming on... dont waste your money, get real liquidex that is proven to lower estrogen levels, once you venture off into the PH/AAS world you will realize natural anything is a waste of money lol

 

[tcslick]

Those are impressive lifts. You'll make good gains on that cycle.

 

[thehogsters]

Allmost all PH on the market today will require 2 bottles for a "good" cycle IMO.

 

[Yodambomb]

Allmost all PH on the market today will require 2 bottles for a "good" cycle IMO.

After doing some research and experiencing a few PH cycles you realize that the smart thing to do is man up to some testE and even then , run a low dose of an oral , preferably not a PH because the conversion process can be pretty hard on the body

 

[thehogsters]

After doing some research and experiencing a few PH cycles you realize that the smart thing to do is man up to some testE and even then , run a low dose of an oral , preferably not a PH because the conversion process can be pretty hard on the body

Sorry but you have no idea what your talking about.

 

[harbonah]

After doing some research and experiencing a few PH cycles you realize that the smart thing to do is man up to some testE and even then , run a low dose of an oral , preferably not a PH because the conversion process can be pretty hard on the body

Not to pick a fight but this is very false. Please cite any reference you have for this opinion I would love to read them.

 

[thehogsters]

When I say "PH" I'm just referring to legal oral gear. You do realize that most of this stuff is actually a designer steroid right?

This is the begining of the write up for DMZ when iForce first came out with it.

The steroid that was first researched by Italian scientists in the early sixties is one of the ingredients in IForce’s new product. Its trade name is Dymethazine; its full scientific name is 17beta-hydroxy 2alpha,17beta-dimethyl 5alpha-androstan 3-on azine. The structure of the

formula is shown below. You won't find the scientific name mentioned in the advertisements for Dymethazine as the manufacturers don’t want to attract the attention of the authorities.

 

[Yodambomb]

Yeah I always know that I sound like a dumbass when I comment on here but I was reading about test ethenate and it was saying that you wanna run HCG's or clomid .

 

[Yodambomb]

I've never ran supports like fincar or arimedex and HCG's on my PH cycles but I don't hear about people using those for oral PH tho ..

 

[Yodambomb]

And I wasn't advising this guy to go buy some test lol . I was talking about for me in the future lol

 

[Mystere3]

Well it's just a trade off, hepatotoxicity for suppression...

 

[Yodambomb]

Well it's just a trade off, hepatotoxicity for suppression...

exactly ! Prohormones are way worse for you than steroids . I'm going to cycle this summer

 

[Mystere3]

exactly ! Prohormones are way worse for you than steroids . I'm going to cycle this summer

Actually that wasn't my point and isn't true. Orals in general are hepatotoxic, whether they are PH/DS or AAS.

Injectables have their own set of concerns; infection, worse suppression, etc.

 

[Yodambomb]

Actually that wasn't my point and isn't true. Orals in general are hepatotoxic, whether they are PH/DS or AAS. Injectables have their own set of concerns; infection, worse suppression, etc.

Yeah there both worse in different ways I know what your saying but I've been hearing that injectables you don't feel all lethargic like you do on orals

 

[Mystere3]

Yeah there both worse in different ways I know what your saying but I've been hearing that injectables you don't feel all lethargic like you do on orals

With certain Injectables you don't (usually test or similar) but others you can have it. You also get increased gyno from test (thus the AI) and with other Injectables you can get impotence/lack of libido. It's certainly not as cut/dried as you're making it.

 

[907Genetics]

Well it's just a trade off, hepatotoxicity for suppression...

I've done quite a few cycles of AAS and Prohomones and one of the worst times ive been shutdown was running Halodrol at 100mgs a day for 6 weeks, took me 3 months for my balls to recover fully from it with a proper PCT inline, Injectables at a low dose like TRT low will not cause complete shutdown just as prohormones at a low does wont cause complete suppression. Prohormones at high dose will cause shutdown as they are synthetic steroids derived from testosterone which then causes your brain to quit producing its natural test

 

[Yodambomb]

Well dude yeah I know if your not running HCG's or clomid and arimedex then yeah your asking for big problems . And yeah also depending on the ether base , if your using one that hits your system quicker then it's going to have more sides .

 

[Yodambomb]

I've done quite a few cycles of AAS and Prohomones and one of the worst times ive been shutdown was running Halodrol at 100mgs a day for 6 weeks, took me 3 months for my balls to recover fully from it with a proper PCT inline, Injectables at a low dose like TRT low will not cause complete shutdown just as prohormones at a low does wont cause complete suppression. Prohormones at high dose will cause shutdown as they are synthetic steroids derived from testosterone which then causes your brain to quit producing its natural test

Yeah I ran a spawn cycle and I didn't feel like I was completely shut down . After . I even did t get on the tamoxifen for like 4 days after I stopped and still held all my gains and have even gained 3 weeks into my post

 

[harbonah]

Actually that wasn't my point and isn't true. Orals in general are hepatotoxic, whether they are PH/DS or AAS.

Injectables have their own set of concerns; infection, worse suppression, etc.

Still no, suppression will be more of an issue the stronger the activity of the hormone "steroid" this is a very basic was to look at this though. But if your assumption was true explain the extreme suppression due to superdrol in a short 3 week cycle or reaching that same test production level via 12 weeks of test. There are many factors to consider when it comes to suppression and we have not even discussed toxicity of metyls which also appear to be influenced by the strength of the hormone and placement of the metyl...yet even this is a simplistic way to look at it given 19nors and the fact they are non methyl and still show some liver toxicity.


I know I did not answer a lot cell phone posting sucks. I'm not trying to come in here like an ass and just say wrong, but i felt it important point out some flaws in the conversation here if I can I'll try to post a better explanation from a computer.

 

[Yodambomb]

Yeah I appreciate it bud . Honestly but liver damage isn't worth gaining less and having more sides . Is injectable better in your opinion or not . I still have yet to research I'll admit

 

[Mystere3]

Clearly more powerful hormones will be more suppressive, but compare the suppression from SD to tren or deca...

Still no, suppression will be more of an issue the stronger the activity of the hormone "steroid" this is a very basic was to look at this though. But if your assumption was true explain the extreme suppression due to superdrol in a short 3 week cycle or reaching that same test production level via 12 weeks of test. There are many factors to consider when it comes to suppression and we have not even discussed toxicity of metyls which also appear to be influenced by the strength of the hormone and placement of the metyl...yet even this is a simplistic way to look at it given 19nors and the fact they are non methyl and still show some liver toxicity.


I know I did not answer a lot cell phone posting sucks. I'm not trying to come in here like an ass and just say wrong, but i felt it important point out some flaws in the conversation here if I can I'll try to post a better explanation from a computer.

 

[harbonah]

Yeah I appreciate it bud . Honestly but liver damage isn't worth gaining less and having more sides . Is injectable better in your opinion or not . I still have yet to research I'll admit

Is Testosterone the safest yes. Well except for legal issues. But many non methyl orals exhibit very little liver damage in a simply 6,8 even 10-12 week cycles I personally had only a mild change in blood work if i can find that blood work ill post it..on 12 weeks of 4ad/11oxo/furuza into 5 weeks of epistane at 40mg in contest prep. And values were normal 3 weeks later on retesting.

 

[Yodambomb]

Is it a felony if you get caught ordering gear ?

 

[Yodambomb]

And 4ad isn't methylated ?

 

[907Genetics]

Yeah I appreciate it bud . Honestly but liver damage isn't worth gaining less and having more sides . Is injectable better in your opinion or not . I still have yet to research I'll admit

Injectables are deffinatly the way to go as injecting only caused the steriod to pass through the liver once, orals passes through the liver twice i.e more stress on the liver, methylated compounds cause stress on your liver and shuts down its ability to produce bile salt, Bile salts are known as the liver's cleansing agents because they carry away toxins and flush them into the intestines for excretion. If the bile flow is restricted in the liver, then the liver can't rid itself of toxins. When the liver loses its ability to excrete toxins, it creates a buildup of toxins throughout the entire body. This condition is known as cholestasis which is reversable once you stop but it can cause liver cells to die which in turn with prolonged use and a buildup of dead cells can cause tumors.... im not saying this will happen but its possible with many years of prolonged use of methylated compounds, its not just methylated prohormones but also oral steroids such as oral dbol,turanibol etc...

 

[harbonah]

Is it a felony if you get caught ordering gear ?

Yes possession its the same as getting caught with coke.

And 4ad isn't methylated ?

No its not but its best if stacked with something else like 1ad, furuza a. Or trenavar but you probably want to save that one as it seems very suppressive and you need to be careful with sides at effective dose.

 

[Yodambomb]

Injectables are deffinatly the way to go as injecting only caused the steriod to pass through the liver once, orals passes through the liver twice i.e more stress on the liver, methylated compounds cause stress on your liver and shuts down its ability to produce bile salt, Bile salts are known as the liver's cleansing agents because they carry away toxins and flush them into the intestines for excretion. If the bile flow is restricted in the liver, then the liver can't rid itself of toxins. When the liver loses its ability to excrete toxins, it creates a buildup of toxins throughout the entire body. This condition is known as cholestasis which is reversable once you stop but it can cause liver cells to die which in turn with prolonged use and a buildup of dead cells can cause tumors.... im not saying this will happen but its possible with many years of prolonged use of methylated compounds, its not just methylated prohormones but also oral steroids such as oral dbol,turanibol etc...

That's what I'm saying ! I just need to lean how to do test e and I'll see gains that I didn't even think that were possible lol

 

[907Genetics]

Like i said guys im not saying you will get liver damage etc.. but im just saying its possible with prolonged use of methylated compounds or negligence i.e drinking or doing drugs while on cycle..

 

[Yodambomb]

Is it easy to get caught tho ?!

 

[harbonah]

That's what I'm saying ! I just need to lean how to do test e and I'll see gains that I didn't even think that were possible lol

First pass is a damn myth that won't die.. I hate this one. What happens to the injectable that is left after blood filters it??? It eventually filters it all. So injectable winne for instance will do just as much damage as oral Winnie.

 

[907Genetics]

Is it easy to get caught tho ?!

Im not promoting illegal substances but if you order domestic you most likely wont get caught.. i personally like them way more than pro hormones, i feel healthier and my gains are much better with injectables even with low doses

 

[Yodambomb]

Im not promoting illegal substances but if you order domestic you most likely wont get caught.. i personally like them way more than pro hormones, i feel healthier and my gains are much better with injectables even with low doses

You mean don't order from anywhere out of the country is what your saying right

 

[907Genetics]

First pass is a damn myth that won't die.. I hate this one. What happens to the injectable that is left after blood filters it??? It eventually filters it all. So injectable winne for instance will do just as much damage as oral Winnie.

You make a good point

 

[907Genetics]

You mean don't order from anywhere out of the country is what your saying right

Yes exactly..

 

[harbonah]

Injectables are deffinatly the way to go as injecting only caused the steriod to pass through the liver once, orals passes through the liver twice i.e more stress on the liver, methylated compounds cause stress on your liver and shuts down its ability to produce bile salt, Bile salts are known as the liver's cleansing agents because they carry away toxins and flush them into the intestines for excretion. If the bile flow is restricted in the liver, then the liver can't rid itself of toxins. When the liver loses its ability to excrete toxins, it creates a buildup of toxins throughout the entire body. This condition is known as cholestasis which is reversable once you stop but it can cause liver cells to die which in turn with prolonged use and a buildup of dead cells can cause tumors.... im not saying this will happen but its possible with many years of prolonged use of methylated compounds, its not just methylated prohormones but also oral steroids such as oral dbol,turanibol etc...

Metyls are harder for the liver to process so they stay in blood longer. Guess what ethanate has the same goal to slow down the filtering of said hormone. Look you are not all wrong here methyl vs non methyl is less damage in theory until you look at the liver toxicity of things like injectable term while it seems to take longer to exhibit liver damage please look into it on ncbi.

 

[907Genetics]

First pass is a damn myth that won't die.. I hate this one. What happens to the injectable that is left after blood filters it??? It eventually filters it all. So injectable winne for instance will do just as much damage as oral Winnie.

But injectables are not methylated and cause less stress on the liver you have to agree with that, that is why most experienced bodybuilders from what ive learned usually try to stay away from any orals, unless for contest prep

 

[harbonah]

But injectables are not methylated and cause less stress on the liver you have to agree with that, that is why most experienced bodybuilders from what ive learned usually try to stay away from any orals, unless for contest prep

Oh some are though that's part of the problem. With that myth guys say well I avoid first pass so injectable dbol,winnie etc are used irresponsible. But a non methyl test cycle yeah there is no debating safety there unless you are one of those anti steroid nut jobs who make things up.

 

[907Genetics]

Oh some are though that's part of the problem. With that myth guys say well I avoid first pass so injectable dbol,winnie etc are used irresponsible. But a non methyl test cycle yeah there is no debating safety there unless you are one of those anti steroid nut jobs who make things up.

You are right that estered compounds to cause stress on the heart,liver, and kidneys but im just staying this as my opinion ive done oral Prohormones, oral AAS and injectables, i feel way more healthy pinning than i do with orals, when i take orals i get bad lethargy and kills my appetite, feel sick sometimes, that right there tells me that those compounds are causing my body to turn toxic, ive never had that problem running an injectable cycle

 

[Mystere3]

Liver damage and increased risk of tumors can happen with all steroids.

Increases in LFTs from cycles tends to be temporary and the liver has the ability to regenerate itself unlike other organs.

Generally, oral cycles should be kept to a relatively short length but the risk of hepatotoxicity is relatively low and is really overblown. Acetaminophen is far more hepatotoxic than steroids. I always face palm when I hear of people taking Tylenol on cycle.