Starting with prohormones (1-Testosterone specifically)

[John McRirrick]

Hi, I'm unsure about asking since I know these kinds of threads must be annoying to those who already know their ****, but I'm looking for answers from people who do since this stuff can be overwhelming and I don't know if I'm over or under thinking things - I am 29, have trained weights since I was 14, done boxing, mma and bjj intermittently, but aside from a 3 year break from around age 18 to 23/24, have always weight lifted at least 3 times a week. I'm finding myself in a limbo - where my strength used to increase, decrease, increase up to more, I now can't seem to add any further weight to my main lifts. I am also struggling with general fatigue (had to give up bjj at least for the meantime because it makes me too tired in the week). Sorry for rambling intro, wanted to give a decent overview of my starting position. So given these factors, I've been considering prohormones to "dip my toe in" so to speak. Everyone says to research and learn about this stuff before messing around with it, but it seems like when you try to, all the people in the know are arguing with each other and it makes it all more, not less, confusing, even as you pick up the scientific concepts and jargon (been researching anabolics for about a year, and looking into prohormones specifically for half of that). The questions I can't seem to find definitive answers for are:
Can prohormones permanently ruin your endogenous testosterone production from even the first cycle, even if it's a mild one? In particular, what are the chances of using 1-Testosterone for 8 weeks could make me permanently infertile or impotent. Obviously at age 29 this is one of, if not the, main concern I have. I know this is probably an eye-roller for those who have experience, but from a beginner's perspective it's very hard to get any definitive answer on this. Would also be interested in anecdotal experiences from people who've used 1-Testosterone, since I see some people say it increased their libido and they didn't need a PCT, others saying they were lethargic and had significant suppression.
Will PH or steroids help with fatigue/motivation issues, or will the ebb and flow of cycles/crashes actually exacerbate it?
Is Dymethazine a better alternative for those whose main concern is reproductive/sexual health? IIRC I saw a Travis Dillard video where he said the research is inconclusive as to whether it's suppressive or not - Am I right in thinking at the very least if it's inconclusive it must be a little less suppressive than anything that can immediately, conclusively be said to be suppressive?
And finally, I often see people advise to get various different blood tests, and argue with each other over which are or aren't useful/necessary - what would the absolute essential tests to get be before going down this road, in order to better be able to mitigate/reverse any negative effects?

As said, if these kinds of threads aren't appreciated just let me know, it's just that trying to read up on all this stuff on this site and others like it seems to be one of those "the more I learn, the less I know" endeavours. I feel like the better informed I get, the more questions I have, and that's worsened by the fact that it seems even the experts can't agree with each other either.

Thank you for reading

 

[Csvt1994]

If you want to dip into PH I would start with an epiandro product and combine that with dermacrine. This will help increase strength in the gym and increase energy/sex drive. A lot of ppl don’t recommend 1-test as a first time PH because it is the most suppressive OTC PH and it will likely cause some ED issues.
You are at risk to shut down with any PH. But the majority of ppl don’t have problems with epiandro at 600 to 900mg daily.
iv also watched a lot of Travis’s YouTube videos. Some of his info is ok. But there is much better information on here.

 

[John McRirrick]

If you want to dip your into PH I would start with an epiandro product and combine that with dermacrine. This will help increase strength in the gym and increase energy/sex drive. A lot of ppl don’t recommend 1-test as a first time PH because it is the most suppressive OTC PH and it will likely cause some ED issues.
You are at risk to shut down with any PH. But the majority of ppl don’t have problems with epiandro at 600 to 900mg daily.
iv also watched a lot of Travis’s YouTube videos. Some of his info is ok. But there is much better information on here.

Thanks for your reply, I'll forget about 1-Test then and start looking into epiandros and dermacrine specifically. Would HTP Androdiol fit the bill/be appropriate for a beginner?

 

[Csvt1994]

Androdiol is a 4 andro product. 4andro converts to test and estrogen it’s most commonly used as a test base when stacking with other PH or sarms.
it can be used solo and is an option for first time user’s. Benefits could be some size gains and strength gains. You will retain some extra water weight as well And you should get an increase in energy/mood/libido. The recommended oral dose is 300mg or greater daily.
4 andro will cause some suppression of your natural testosterone. But is easily recoverable with a proper PCT.
What exactly are your goals?

 

[John McRirrick]

Androdiol is a 4 andro product. 4andro converts to test and estrogen it’s most commonly used as a test base when stacking with or other PH or sarms.
it can be used solo and is an option for first time user’s. Benefits could be some size gains and strength gains. You will retain some extra water weight as well And you should get an increase in energy/mood/libido. The recommended oral dose is 300mg or greater daily.
4 andro will cause some suppression of your natural testosterone. But is easily recoverable with a proper PCT.
What exactly are your goals?

Got it, I'll look into that as well as the epiandro ones then. If epiandro is theoretically the least "risky" for suppression I'd like to stick to that if I can, thanks for explaining the difference to me.
My goals are mainly to push past the current ceiling I'm hitting with my strength, and to have more energy to get back to combat sports training in the week alongside my weight training. If possible, I'd like to do that without too much visible weight gain (in terms of fatness) or even a reduction in "soft" weight, but I know that may be asking a bit much, and would definitely be willing to prioritise strength and energy over aesthetic considerations for the time being.

 

[Csvt1994]

Got it, I'll look into that as well as the epiandro ones then. If epiandro is theoretically the least "risky" for suppression I'd like to stick to that if I can, thanks for explaining the difference to me.
My goals are mainly to push past the current ceiling I'm hitting with my strength, and to have more energy to get back to combat sports training in the week alongside my weight training. If possible, I'd like to do that without too much visible weight gain (in terms of fatness) or even a reduction in "soft" weight, but I know that may be asking a bit much, and would definitely be willing to prioritise strength and energy over aesthetic considerations for the time being.

With your goals in mind I think you’d really like epiandro and dermacrine. I have done this stack a couple times and gained the benefits you are looking for. Epiandro will give you a hardened look and your muscles will feel much more pumped all the time. And the gym pumps are amazing, you’ll also have some strength gains. You could do something like this
8 weeks of
Epiandro 600mg or 900mg daily
4 pumps dermacrine daily

4 week Pct
Alpha gels by EPG
Pct assist by CEL

 

[John McRirrick]

With your goals in mind I think you’d really like epiandro and dermacrine. I have done this stack a couple times and gained the benefits you are looking for. Epiandro will give you a hardened look and your muscles will feel much more pumped all the time. And the gym pumps are amazing, you’ll also have some strength gains. You could do something like this
8 weeks of
Epiandro 600mg or 900mg daily
4 pumps dermacrine daily

4 week Pct
Alpha gels by EPG
Pct assist by CEL

Nice one, I'll start looking into them, thanks for the help. I don't mean to harp on one thing that's probably not that big of a risk anyway, but are there certain people who are more prone to permanent shutdown or severe suppression + any tests I can take prior to starting to make sure I'm not one of them? Or is it more one of those things where you have to take the plunge and find out for yourself no matter what tests or research you do prior? And I'd assume in most cases any negatives like that can be reversed, or these substances wouldn't be popular? Sorry for labouring you with more questions, it's just quite a daunting aspect of the whole thing. Thanks again for the advice you've already given

 

[Rad83]

You’re doing well for yourself, by the nice intro and asking good questions!…MUCH better than shelling out a bunch of money and not knowing what you’re doing/getting into….or worse starting and then running into problems and having to post in a panic.

Having mentioned the ‘general fatigue’ it wouldn’t hurt to get blood work, a physical…and hormones checked if you can swing it!
I say that because ‘general practitioners’ can take some convincing to even consider testing a man’s testosterone etc. A baseline test level at the least would be very beneficial to have, if getting into this.

1 andro, can be very lethargy inducing! I would avoid it, in your current state, with the fatigue and all.

There’s almost always nutrition, lifestyle etc tweaks that can get you moving in an upward trend again! And there’s plenty of good innovative natural, and hormonal but not ‘hardcore’ supplements you can dig into on this forum…..that you really won’t hear of anywhere else.

 

[John McRirrick]

You’re doing well for yourself, by the nice intro and asking good questions!…MUCH better than shelling out a bunch of money and not knowing what you’re doing/getting into….or worse starting and then running into problems and having to post in a panic.

Having mentioned the ‘general fatigue’ it wouldn’t hurt to get blood work, a physical…and hormones checked if you can swing it!
I say that because ‘general practitioners’ can take some convincing to even consider testing a man’s testosterone etc. A baseline test level at the least would be very beneficial to have, if getting into this.

1 andro, can be very lethargy inducing! I would avoid it, in your current state, with the fatigue and all.

There’s almost always nutrition, lifestyle etc tweaks that can get you moving in an upward trend again! And there’s plenty of good innovative natural, and hormonal but not ‘hardcore’ supplements you can dig into on this forum…..that you really won’t hear of anywhere else.

Thanks, I'm glad since I didn't want to be annoying/looking for "spoon-feeding" in my first posts. It's just that it seems like it's good to get as much knowledge as possible before toying with stuff like this. As a matter of fact, I'm going to read about epiandro and dermacrine and am still grateful to Csvt1994 for the helpful advice, but I'm leaning towards spending at least a year or two reading this forum and learning before I mess around with any real androgens, PH or otherwise.
Yeah, I was definitely going to get my test measured before starting, but now I think I'll get it tested anyway just to know my current levels and have a better understanding of my own hormone profile to work with.
You're right, I definitely need to focus on those things in the aforementioned year or two - are there any threads here dealing with nutrition and lifestyle changes that can decrease fatigue without reducing volume or intensity of training? I already use a lot of supplements for training and general health, and a few I specifically bought for the purpose of boosting my energy levels like d-aspartic acid and bromantane. I've read good things about shilajit and pine pollen too, haven't tried them yet though - are there any particular supplements you recommend I look into? (particularly as far as energy and strength are concerned)
Thanks for your reply

 

[Rad83]

Energy for me, is sleep and nutrition related while balancing training. I actually am far better off now, having ditched the high stim pre workouts. If thats not something you’re into, that’s good. For me, I already have long standing sleep issues and the stims add up and eat more into your circadian rhythm…that combined with the higher intensity of training was not good. “Burning the candle at both ends” I’ll still have my one maybe 2 cups of coffee, but the overall experience/caffeine intake is drastically different.

I wouldn’t purchase any more supplements yet. Actually the da acid you mentioned, was one of the worst things I tried many years ago (I’m a little over 10 years older than you) It actually raises estrogen in many, and threads of that info can be found here.

I do like the epiandro/dermacrine stack.
Very effective especially if training hard, eating big/clean, at a decent enough body fat % to notice some vascularity etc.

Again, first on my list would be a doctor visit and just be honest about the fatigue. None of us are doctors here…Not trying to be alarming but there could be something in your blood work causing it….I have had fatigue etc. and it’s depression/anxiety related. Getting sun, training, eating, doing my park walk are things that immensely help me.

And bro if you’re watching any social media/influencers, really try to dial that back…It’s not good for the psyche to be bombarded with kids that all think they are gonna be the next Arnold…bold face lying about what they are taking….As someone that started before YouTube etc even existed, this shitt is embarrassing to see.

I like keeping a journal/training log, and handwriting my main lifts in and other notes at the gym. I like to be present and off my phone as much as possible

 

[delsolrob]

this would be a great beginner stack with Epiandro and dermacrine - this pricing is insanely good.

Dermacrine Ultra Epi 3 Bottle Stack

2x Ultra Epi & Dermacrine Stack Recommended Application Apply 3-5 pumps of Ultra Epi + 2-3 Pumps of Dermacrine each morning - if you workout in the AM, apply after post workout shower. Do not apply before bed, as this may cause issues with sleep

iconicformulations.com

 

[hyperCat]

Don’t underestimate creatine!

 

[John McRirrick]

Energy for me, is sleep and nutrition related while balancing training. I actually am far better off now, having ditched the high stim pre workouts. If thats not something you’re into, that’s good. For me, I already have long standing sleep issues and the stims add up and eat more into your circadian rhythm…that combined with the higher intensity of training was not good. “Burning the candle at both ends” I’ll still have my one maybe 2 cups of coffee, but the overall experience/caffeine intake is drastically different.

I wouldn’t purchase any more supplements yet. Actually the da acid you mentioned, was one of the worst things I tried many years ago (I’m a little over 10 years older than you) It actually raises estrogen in many, and threads of that info can be found here.

I do like the epiandro/dermacrine stack.
Very effective especially if training hard, eating big/clean, at a decent enough body fat % to notice some vascularity etc.

Again, first on my list would be a doctor visit and just be honest about the fatigue. None of us are doctors here…Not trying to be alarming but there could be something in your blood work causing it….I have had fatigue etc. and it’s depression/anxiety related. Getting sun, training, eating, doing my park walk are things that immensely help me.

And bro if you’re watching any social media/influencers, really try to dial that back…It’s not good for the psyche to be bombarded with kids that all think they are gonna be the next Arnold…bold face lying about what they are taking….As someone that started before YouTube etc even existed, this shitt is embarrassing to see.

I like keeping a journal/training log, and handwriting my main lifts in and other notes at the gym. I like to be present and off my phone as much as possible

I don't use high-stim preworkouts too often - I usually use them for long hikes rather than weightlifting - having said that, my definition of high-stim is probably a bit warped anyway because I do use caffeine pills and coffee along with non-stim helpers like citrulline malate ect, but I try to avoid regular consumption of DMAA, DMHA, Synephrine and the like.
Ah, I see - I'll read the threads when I get chance, thanks for the heads up
Yeah, I am going to visit the doctors soon - can't plot a course without a map after all
I don't really watch much in the way of influencers - I watch people like Nutrition Library and Ryan Russo ect when I want to learn something, but I don't like watching the influencer type stuff - a lot of it feels quite disingenuous and superficial, which I suppose it would be since it's a lucrative market.
I've been getting better at that, I have many scattered pieces of paper with notes around my weights but I need to start putting it all in one notepad or folder

Thanks for all your advice man, it's really appreciated - has helped me put things into perspective before taking significant decisions.

this would be a great beginner stack with Epiandro and dermacrine - this pricing is insanely good.

Dermacrine Ultra Epi 3 Bottle Stack

2x Ultra Epi & Dermacrine Stack Recommended Application Apply 3-5 pumps of Ultra Epi + 2-3 Pumps of Dermacrine each morning - if you workout in the AM, apply after post workout shower. Do not apply before bed, as this may cause issues with sleep

iconicformulations.com

Thanks, I'm going to do as Rad83 said and focus on the diet, lifestyle and training stuff as well as getting checked out first but thanks for pointing me to a good product should I go down that route

Don’t underestimate creatine!

I do take creatine currently, I have to take a few weeks off now and then because it seems to make me itchy - don't know if that's the way it draws water into the muscle maybe making my skin dry out or something?

Post edited because after reading more threads I realised my wording might have skated close to the forum rules - apologies to the mods for that, it won't happen again.

 

[Miles Johnson]

What about the possibility of hair loss on epiandro, given that it converts to DHT?

 

[delsolrob]

What about the possibility of hair loss on epiandro, given that it converts to DHT?

It does have potential for shedding - that is 100% dependent on dose and how prone you are to shedding