Starting hCG monotherapy
- Thread starter LeanGuy
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LeanGuy
Active member
Its been up and down for me... overall it's worked better than everything else I've tried (t-gel, clomid, herbals). I should have some more labs in a few days. My LH was around 2.0 before hCG. I don't think you can test LH while on hCG... it would probably be nil?
LeanGuy
Active member
LABS
Just received 2nd set of labs while on HCG. This is 350iu E3D. Looks like my progesterone is fine but E2 is a little high causing the nipple problems. I have some anastrazole on the way, will take .5mg with each injection. I think these numbers are looking good.
Testosterone, Serum 767 ng/dl [241-827] ** up from 697
Estradiol, Sensitive LabCorp 36 pg/ml [3-70] ** up from 21
Progesterone 1.0 ng/ml [0.3-1.2]
Cortisol 16.2 ug/dl [3.1-22.4] ** taking 5mg HC but none this day
Free T3 3.6 pg/ml [2.3-4.2] ** up from 3.1; taking 4.5mcg bio-thyroid
Just received 2nd set of labs while on HCG. This is 350iu E3D. Looks like my progesterone is fine but E2 is a little high causing the nipple problems. I have some anastrazole on the way, will take .5mg with each injection. I think these numbers are looking good.
Testosterone, Serum 767 ng/dl [241-827] ** up from 697
Estradiol, Sensitive LabCorp 36 pg/ml [3-70] ** up from 21
Progesterone 1.0 ng/ml [0.3-1.2]
Cortisol 16.2 ug/dl [3.1-22.4] ** taking 5mg HC but none this day
Free T3 3.6 pg/ml [2.3-4.2] ** up from 3.1; taking 4.5mcg bio-thyroid
colkurtz_spf
The horror
The anastrazole will boost your testosterone levels. What was you FT?
LeanGuy
Active member
Didn't test FT this time due to cost, but here is last time. I'm sure its >20 now.
Testosterone, free (direct) 18.9 [8.7-25.1]
living2die
Member
Lean guy, I am very happy for you with having such enormous success with a mere 350IU HCG E3D. This is a very low dose for HCG mono. Jansz made his own HCG IU / ITT (inter testicular T) chart and using his formula, you need about 308 IU EOD to maintain testes at 100% capacity. You are well below this.
I have gone as low as 250 IU HCG EOD, but feel my best at 380EOD. I think anything over 500 IU EOD, and you are going to need copious amounts of an AI to reduce your estradiol. I don't know how all those HCG dieters to run into e2 / progesterone issues when they take as high as 200IU ED of HCG, yet still manage to lose dozens of pounds. I think Jansz found that 380IU HCG raised ITT to 110% of study subjects testicular baseline capacity, following complete testicular induced hypogonadism from a hefty dose of exo T.
I have gone as low as 250 IU HCG EOD, but feel my best at 380EOD. I think anything over 500 IU EOD, and you are going to need copious amounts of an AI to reduce your estradiol. I don't know how all those HCG dieters to run into e2 / progesterone issues when they take as high as 200IU ED of HCG, yet still manage to lose dozens of pounds. I think Jansz found that 380IU HCG raised ITT to 110% of study subjects testicular baseline capacity, following complete testicular induced hypogonadism from a hefty dose of exo T.
living2die
Member
Did you say you were taking PREGNENOLONE. I am a staunch advocate for PREG TD, but apparently HRT patients taking PREG alongside HC run into problems with overstimulation and insomnia. Because your stress hormones are already sufficiently in line, because of your HC dosage, you might not need PREG because it might be diverted into straight PROG since your stress hormones are already being pumped up with your HC?
living2die
Member
Also I have heard, that in the absence of estradiol (e2), your PROG levels can be sky high and you won't develop geno. This is why breast cancer treatment protocol incorporates an AI, rather than an anti-PROG drug into its regiment for treating breast cancer. It's the estradiol(e2) that mediates breast growth, not PROG.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
EOD protocol can cause E2 problems. Twice per week (3 days off and then 4) or E4D works best in my opinion. I'm on 1600 IUs using that schedule with .5 MG of Arimidex, but I think I'll be able to drop the Adex. I needed it when I injected 1500 E3D. I'll know if I can make the change after my next blood draw.
living2die
Member
Do you do IM or Sub C ? The half life of HCG is 33 hours, +/- 4 hours. 4 days in between pinning is a long time. almost 3 full half lives. I like EOD because although it is a pain to have to pin in such a high frequency, I feel subjectively more stable in the head.
ColKurtz, so you are on 1600 IU PW? That sounds pretty optimal. My dosing comes out to be about 180 - 200 IU PD when you factor in the average load per day. I think 200 IU is too much though...I almost feel to good on that dose, just super upper, like I just drank jet fuel. lol:bandit:
ColKurtz, so you are on 1600 IU PW? That sounds pretty optimal. My dosing comes out to be about 180 - 200 IU PD when you factor in the average load per day. I think 200 IU is too much though...I almost feel to good on that dose, just super upper, like I just drank jet fuel. lol:bandit:
colkurtz_spf
The horror
HCG has a three day half life, but T levels peak in 72 to 96 hours. HCG doesn't behave like testosterone. If used properly it induces a natural rhythm in hormone flow. I started three years ago under the care of a doctor who had over a decade of experience administering this protocol. I followed his instructions and injected twice per week at night. The first three months I used 10,000 IUs per week and then switched to 8,000 for next 8. I was badly shutdown when he first saw me. It wasn't until month three at 10,000 that I experienced a significant increase in E2. That was when I reduced and included arimidex. Towards the end of my first year I weened myself off to see if I had reestablished my baseline levels - I had. As I reduced to 3000 per week using his protocol I no longer needed Arimidex. Since then I have experimented with several protocols. EOD raised my E2 and lowered my FT as he said it would, and E3D raised E2 slightly enough to need an AI. Now I'm back where I started.
I inject subq at bedtime twice per week. By the time I wake my morning levels are high and my rhythm is in sync. I posted a study several weeks ago that shows frequent injections inhibit HCG receptors. I think I know what works for montherapy - at least for me. I'm sure that when combined with exogenous T it's a different matter.
living2die
Member
Das ist gut. That makes sense...see I go the IM route...I am 6" and tip the scale at 150lbs so virtually regardless of injection site, chances are that I am going to hit muscle. Blood serum HCG levels peak quicker with the IM route vs. Sub Q route, that explains how you are able to go 4 days without crashing. HCG IM route has much shorter half life. exo T never made me feel good though. I am more interested in the HCG binding to the LH/HCG receptors in the brain, and the mood elevation i get from this effect rather than the T boost. Though I am sure the T boost does have an effect on mood elevation.
living2die
Member
This study was in Woman, so it didn't monitor T levels....just time until peak hcg levels in the IM vs. sub c routes, as well as half lifes.
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colkurtz_spf
The horror
I don't think it makes a difference how you inject. The study I posted showed that both subq and IM yield the same results.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
Also, and for what it's worth, you don't need much body fat to inject subq. Based on your picture I'd say it's doable. Just pinch some skin and insert the needle.
living2die
Member
Yah...that pic needs updating lol. That pic is from Sept. 08 and I have lost close to 20lbs since then. But yeh, even if you have a body fat of a kenyan marathon runner you could still easily go the sub c route. Really the study I posted is the only one, to the best of my knowledge, that demonstrates that IM results in greater HCG blood serum levels than sub c. 99% of the studies out there demonstrate that sub c is equivalent to IM in terms of bioavailability of hcg. but i dont mind pinning EOD, and for me i get a greater boost from IM vs. sub c when on the same dosing regiment.
honestly though, for me HCG mono was only half of the recipe for success in my case...the other half was TD PREG. my adrenals were shot and even hcg couldnt make up for this. but alongside the TD PREG, i find my appetite significantly suppressed. when I was on TRT w/o HCG and PREG, it seemed like my appetite never ceased. ditching TRT and going on straight HCG helped tremendously, and then adding in the TD PREG put me over the top. Now I eat to live, rather than living to eat.
honestly though, for me HCG mono was only half of the recipe for success in my case...the other half was TD PREG. my adrenals were shot and even hcg couldnt make up for this. but alongside the TD PREG, i find my appetite significantly suppressed. when I was on TRT w/o HCG and PREG, it seemed like my appetite never ceased. ditching TRT and going on straight HCG helped tremendously, and then adding in the TD PREG put me over the top. Now I eat to live, rather than living to eat.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
living2die
Member
1) This is particularly earth shattering. Just as HCG binding to LH receptors in the testes is diminished, do you think the testes ability to secrete PREG is diminished as well? What about the HCG binding capacity to LH/HCG receptors in the brain? I like the dose they used 3000 IU E2W roughly the dose that I am using...not overdoing it, not underdosing. Still with a half life around 30 hrs...1 injection every 2 weeks accrues to 11.2 half lifes...after about 4 half lifes, the hcg in serum is going to be marginal.
Therefore, we treated PADAM by hCG injection. We generally performed hCG injections every 2 weeks because it has been reported that the binding capacity of testicular hCG receptors is significantly reduced for 5 days after injection, begins to increase on day 7, and returns to pre-administration levels 14 days after a single administration of 5000IU hCG [30].
2) Yup, this is what I said in an earlier post. I reported that half life was 33hrs +/-
Pharmacokinetic studies of hCG demonstrate a usual terminal half- life of about 30 hours
Therefore, we treated PADAM by hCG injection. We generally performed hCG injections every 2 weeks because it has been reported that the binding capacity of testicular hCG receptors is significantly reduced for 5 days after injection, begins to increase on day 7, and returns to pre-administration levels 14 days after a single administration of 5000IU hCG [30].
2) Yup, this is what I said in an earlier post. I reported that half life was 33hrs +/-
Pharmacokinetic studies of hCG demonstrate a usual terminal half- life of about 30 hours
colkurtz_spf
The horror
It's not about the half life of HCG. It's what HCG sets in motion. Testosterone elevations last 72 to 96 hours. You could try their protocol. I've done two week intervals while weening off. You won't feel shut down, but I don't think you'll feel as good. Remember, this protocol was devised for clinical trials. I've been doing this 3 years solid, and for me twice weekly has yielded great results. I think E4D would be even better. I've noticed increased sides and diminished results from more frequent injections.
longrob
Member
colkurtz,
thanks for posting your experiences. I am on T-cyp twice a week and am trying to add HCG for its obvious benefits. I tried 250iu twice a week after reading that dose would maintain testicle function, then upped it to 400iu. Since I have been shutdown for months, I am still experimenting to find a dose that increases my sense of well-being and testical size, etc. Your post on 10,000 iu for three months due to being shutdown- so would you recommend I up my dose to get started, then reduce later? Any help would be appreciated.
Rob
thanks for posting your experiences. I am on T-cyp twice a week and am trying to add HCG for its obvious benefits. I tried 250iu twice a week after reading that dose would maintain testicle function, then upped it to 400iu. Since I have been shutdown for months, I am still experimenting to find a dose that increases my sense of well-being and testical size, etc. Your post on 10,000 iu for three months due to being shutdown- so would you recommend I up my dose to get started, then reduce later? Any help would be appreciated.
Rob
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I would not do that while on testosterone. You'd probably jack your E2. I would try 1000 twice per week for a period of two weeks and then reduce to 500. I'd also monitor E2.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I think it should be fine. Until I have a blood draw to refer to I go by the way I feel. The adex should boost your testosterone levels.
living2die
Member
For most using your conservative dose of HCG mono, one will find that an AI isnt necessary. If the HCG diet protocol calls for shots up to 150-200IU of HCG PD, w/o any adjacent AI drugs, one would suspect that it wouldnt be necessary for you to take an AI. Remember, 308IU EOD will put testes at baseline output of T, and whatever your baseline output of E2 is from aromatization of T-->E. You are well below this baseline range.
LeanGuy
Active member
I would like to do without the AI, but symptoms indicate its necessary right now (sore nipples) and E2 > 30. Eventually I should be able to find the perfect HCG dose and skip the AI.
living2die
Member
Are you in the states? Is there anyway you get get ahold of some compounded DHT cream ? If you are in Europe, you should have no problem getting ahold of some Proviron, which competes with e2 for the estrogen receptor. Another plus, is there is no worry of overly reducing e2 values.
rick055
Active member
When do/did you take the AI relative to your injection? Why? What if you were on a semi weekly T schedule as well? (i.e. HCG - M/R; T - T/F)
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I wouldn't worry about taking low dose adex.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I take .5 mg with each injection. I think I may be able to cut that down now that I've gone from E3D to twice per week. It's possible that I might be able to eliminate it completely if I dosed E4D. That's something I may try. Increasing injection frequency has raised my E2.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
The HCG diet works well. Your bound to lose weight on 500 calories per day. The research you quote for 308 IUs per day originates from a test group of young healthy males who were shut down from exogenous test. I read it a few years ago here.. I'm not sure how it pertains to HRT.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
What if you were on a semi weekly T schedule as well? (i.e. HCG - M/R; T - T/F)[/QUOTE]
I've never done semi-weekly T shots and HCG, but I've tried it with T cream. I used 500 IUs E3D and had to include . 5 mg of adex. I'm not sure how it would have worked with T injections or if I injected HCG less frequently.
I've never done semi-weekly T shots and HCG, but I've tried it with T cream. I used 500 IUs E3D and had to include . 5 mg of adex. I'm not sure how it would have worked with T injections or if I injected HCG less frequently.
rick055
Active member
Have you considered the half life of the arimidex? I hear different ideas on the subject. Some advocate taking an AI 12 - 24 hours after injection, some differ on whether the injection is T, HCG or both.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I've tried different protocols over the years. Taking adex with my injection yields the best result while on the E3D or twice per week protocols.
mattmuscle
New member
Bump.
Hows the monotherapy going lean guy?
Hows the monotherapy going lean guy?
LeanGuy
Active member
Its going pretty well... my T levels are pretty consistent now (mid-700) but I am having E2 troubles... and trying to find the right dose of adex to keep it in the 20-30 range. This is new for me becuz I always had low E2 (<10). Right now I am taking .25mg with each shot, but may need to adjust after my next labs, which I'll be posting next week. I'm tired of tweeking, I just want to find a plan and stick to it. I've put on more muscle... several people at the gym have noticed. Libido and sexual performance is good when the E2 is in check. So I am still liking HCG
LeanGuy
Active member
300iu E3D
LeanGuy
Active member
Not measured lately, but still seems low. I have enough to pinch in the abdomen for my HCG shots
mattmuscle
New member
Its going pretty well... my T levels are pretty consistent now (mid-700) but I am having E2 troubles... and trying to find the right dose of adex to keep it in the 20-30 range. This is new for me becuz I always had low E2 (<10). Right now I am taking .25mg with each shot, but may need to adjust after my next labs, which I'll be posting next week. I'm tired of tweeking, I just want to find a plan and stick to it. I've put on more muscle... several people at the gym have noticed. Libido and sexual performance is good when the E2 is in check. So I am still liking HCG
Maybe hCG every 4 days would improve your estrogen issues?
LeanGuy
Active member
yeah I have been toying with that option... I just wonder if I'd maintain the same T levels with 300iu E4D or if I'd need to increase the dose
mattmuscle
New member
If your t levels dropped a little it may improve your TRT further.
T levels in the 700 range may be above what your body considers natural.
This in itself will cause more testosterone to be converted into other hormones.
Most guys naturally do not have T levels this high. Even when they are young.
I was a personal trainer a few years back and had many clients have tests done for Testosterone when they had checkups done. None had natural levels like this. Even the young lads. These guys were healthy and did not have any low testosterone issues.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
One thing to keep in mind is that T levels have dropped on average over 30% in all men since the 1980s. It's frightening for me to see the number of young men with baseline levels half of mine. Just to put this in perspective: my normal TT level is 475. My 83 year old dad, who is crippled from a surgery gone bad 10 years ago has a baseline of 468. You can see whee this is going. I imagine it's due to food and the environment (i.e. water supply). Still, it would be unwise in my opinion to accept and shrug off the new norm. Studies show testosterone's relevance to health and longevity - the former being most important. No one wants to end up having their diapers changed, and the cost of treating age related illness is killing our economy.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
Split the difference and inject twice a week - both shots at night. I assure you your levels will maintain. For me, this has been the most effective protocol.
LeanGuy
Active member
Best thing, sex has gotten better... but still not optimal. As far as T levels, I know some guys feel fine at 500-600 but I honestly feel best in the 700's. My baseline is about 450-500 and did not feel good.