SSX :About writing up an exhaustive article:
- Thread starter K (Phoenix)
- Start date
windwords7
Well-known member
I would love to know Par's actual level of education and formal training in Chemistry. We KNOW BDC's, soon to be Dr. BDC!
ShadowJack
Board Supporter
windwords7 said:
Par has posted this before. He is not hiding anything. Link to the thread on his board: Link Removed
ShadowJack
Board Supporter
John Benz said:
Perhaps I used the wrong word with theorizing. Here is a quote by Par made in the above-mentioned article:
So, he is not only thoroughly explaining the science behind his reasoning, but he is also using the user feedback to try to justify his position.
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John Benz said:
Personally, I don't want to get into this part of it, as I have never questioned Chemo's knowledge.
curt2go
Homebrew Help, Inc.
The point is homebrew works the same as par's stuff. We have people getting the exact same results so who cares on the exact absorption... We can waste our time "theorizing " all day but who cares. We have better things to do.. Like spraying it on. hehehehe.. But like i said who cares. No one is EVER going to get it tested it costs too much money.. But this is all just my opinion.. Talk to ya...
windwords7
Well-known member
Real world evidence has never seemed to matter to these guys Curt.
If subject A uses Avant-X for 4 weeks and gains 15 pounds at a cost of 60 dollars and subject B ueses BDC-X for 4 weeks and gains 15 pounds at a cost of 40 dollars, who got the best results for the money? END OF SUBJECT
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
Jack, thanks for the link above. For some reason, I was thinking it was a separate article.
I'm glad you worded your response in this way, because I can respond in a way that proves a good point. And, this is a general point, and not directly aimed at you.
I question BDC. I question Par. I question Pat Arnold and Bill Llewellyn.
I question everybody when they say something controversial. Why? Because I want to see them explain themselves, and provide evidence for what they're saying. Otherwise, how can you truly believe what they're saying? Would you simply go on faith? I should hope not.
Now, of course, everyone has seen BDC prove himself in debates. I've seen it when he debated Pat Arnold on something. So, I'm not calling his knowledge or credibility into question, in this case, because he certainly is both. I would, however, like to see a thorough explanation as to why he feels his is better, with, of course, scientific references.
And on the other hand, I would like to see Par release his formula completely, so a full comparison could be made, but I respect his decision not to, and I'm sure he has good reasons.
ShadowJack said:
I'm glad you worded your response in this way, because I can respond in a way that proves a good point. And, this is a general point, and not directly aimed at you.
I question BDC. I question Par. I question Pat Arnold and Bill Llewellyn.
I question everybody when they say something controversial. Why? Because I want to see them explain themselves, and provide evidence for what they're saying. Otherwise, how can you truly believe what they're saying? Would you simply go on faith? I should hope not.
Now, of course, everyone has seen BDC prove himself in debates. I've seen it when he debated Pat Arnold on something. So, I'm not calling his knowledge or credibility into question, in this case, because he certainly is both. I would, however, like to see a thorough explanation as to why he feels his is better, with, of course, scientific references.
And on the other hand, I would like to see Par release his formula completely, so a full comparison could be made, but I respect his decision not to, and I'm sure he has good reasons.
YellowJacket
Banned
SirSavageX said:
Now, of course, everyone has seen BDC prove himself in debates. I've seen it when he debated Pat Arnold on something. So, I'm not calling his knowledge or credibility into question, in this case, because he certainly is both. I would, however, like to see a thorough explanation as to why he feels his is better, with, of course, scientific references.
Like K and I always say, sometimes common sense is more important than science. I dont waste my time questioning people, I look at the results others have got from a product so I buy it. Senseless? Maybe. But very logical. But I dont knock those who question things like you SSX, I commend you for wanting to leanr more, I just rather buy it and use it
windwords7
Well-known member
Originally posted by windwords7
Real world evidence has never seemed to matter to these guys Curt.
If subject A uses Avant-X for 4 weeks and gains 15 pounds at a cost of 60 dollars and subject B ueses BDC-X for 4 weeks and gains 15 pounds at a cost of 40 dollars, who got the best results for the money? END OF SUBJECT
Let me quote myself again and say, amen YJ, I just want to use whats working.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
YellowJacket said:
Ok, tell ya' what, man, I've got this potion that will make you gain 30 lbs., increase your strength by 500%, and give you nine inches of ding-dong in only two weeks. There is absolutely NO scientific basis for what I'm saying, but hey, I've had a few guys try it and they absolutely LOVE it. $100 and it's yours, my man.
Never question, huh? ALWAYS question.
Some guys can swear by certain products, but there is little or no scientific data to back what product x is supposed to be doing for them. Placebo effect, training type and volume, genetics, and diet can all play a huge effect on a cycle, and it could be that product x had absolutely no effect all, but rather, it was all diet, training, and genetics.
YellowJacket
Banned
SirSavageX said:
Ok, tell ya' what, man, I've got this potion that will make you gain 30 lbs., increase your strength by 500%, and give you nine inches of ding-dong in only two weeks. There is absolutely NO scientific basis for what I'm saying, but hey, I've had a few guys try it and they absolutely LOVE it. $100 and it's yours, my man.
Now come on SSX, thats low
I said after I see results from someone else, a few people. Otherwise I would be buying all SDI-LABS and Impact Nutrition. Nut I know what goes into these PHs, Avants and BDC's. I know that 1-test powder is the greatest PH around, I know DMSO increases aborbtion quite a bit. With those things in mind, I can safely make a purchase and be sure I'll get results...see what Im saying? (PS- PM with the product that will help my ding-dong in a couple weeks)
windwords7
Well-known member
LOL!
1Fast400
Well-known member
The problem with debates between any of the big guys is this:
About 2% can actually follow the debate. That is why some of these guys get so frustrated (no I'm not making reference to any 1 debate). They will be pissed as hell because on the science they are killing the other, yet the crowd (other posters) are to ignorant to follow and realize this.
About 2% can actually follow the debate. That is why some of these guys get so frustrated (no I'm not making reference to any 1 debate). They will be pissed as hell because on the science they are killing the other, yet the crowd (other posters) are to ignorant to follow and realize this.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
YellowJacket said:
Yep, I see what you're saying. In other words, you questioned.
YellowJacket
Banned
I agree! And Ive decided to lay low on things Im not sure about because I dont want to be in that ignorant crowd (might be already though1Fast400 said:
) Another problem is its like sucking tit through a sweater Chemo's opinion isnt going to change because of what Par says, Par's opinion isnt going to change because of what Chemo says and on down the line. Mike hates me and I like Mike but our opinions arent going to change because of eachother (unless he sends me some free Liver tabs) so everyone let it be. All this **** overshadows everything good on this board, other sections, and you guys who dont post here but in these threads dont give a ****, because its not your problem to worry about, but its mine so Id like to see everyone kiss and make up (or shake hands would siffice I suppose). PS (Mike you're e-valentine cards is on the way)
YellowJacket
Banned
Booo! I didnt question, I reasearched 1-Test on my own and researched DMSO on my own, put 2 and 2 together and read the ingredients in 1-T Pro and decided that would work for me. Then read other's feedback on it and decided to purchase. I didnt go to Chemo or Par and say "why is this in there?" Because I know why its in there.SirSavageX said:
Yep, I see what you're saying. In other words, you questioned.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
curt2go said:
Dammit Curt, you posted this linguistic pile of dung, when you could have been searching for those threads for me??
I'm very rarely at bb.com anymore, but I'll search for those threads next time I'm there.
YellowJacket
Banned
1Fast400 said:
Ok let me guess, but your boys Par, Dante and Pat?
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
YellowJacket said:
What lead you to research? A question.
I didnt go to Chemo or Par and say "why is this in there?" Because I know why its in there.
Most of the time, going directly to them and inquiring is unecessary, because they explain themselves in articles (or threads).
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
1Fast400 said:
I've seen this happen a couple of times, Mike. Which one are you talking about?
YellowJacket
Banned
SirSavageX said:
What lead you to research? A question.
Most of the time, going directly to them and inquiring is unecessary, because they explain themselves in articles (or threads).
A question I suppose, but a different one in a sense. I didnt go ask the guru's and bug the **** out of them, I decided to take it upon myself. I dont question why is there more than your's and why does your's have this, etc. I ask logical questions that I can answer on my own. But I see what you're saying and more power to you.....
John Benz
Banned
My point is that the exact same science behind that reasoning would be just as valid as pertains to Chemo's formula since except for splitting hairs on insignificant add-ins, the basic formulas are very near identical. And science behind the reasoning is simply not the same as a lab study, so all percentages are simply speculation, no more/no less.ShadowJack said:
Chemo's products have nowhere near comparable distrubution, but the feedback coming in so far has been at least as positive as Avant's. And where bow compared 2 cycles of homebrew to 2 cycles of one+, he gave the nod to homebrew!
1Fast400
Well-known member
But this was an OLD debate. It wasn't on bb.com. Hell it has been almost a year (if not more) when this went on (and I didn't even know PA at that time).
If we are going to attempt to move on YJ you can't keep putting these stupid fucking
after everything. I can't change the facts of the debate.Par and Bill never debate really. Big Cat and Par got into one time and well....I don't think I need to say anything else about big cat. He left bill standing to defend a VERY weak point. It sucked for bill, he got sucked into an argument he didn't want.
Bill isn't a bad guy, just WAY to emotional
YellowJacket
Banned
1Fast400 said:
I like Bill....he's honest and he's emotional because he gives a **** about his customers, maybe he needs to teach a seminar to the other "guy" on giving a ****.
windwords7
Well-known member
I like Bill too. He seems to be much more the peoples man than the other guy does for sure.
YellowJacket
Banned
Well is everyone done here? Did we make a decision on who's balls were bigger?
Im actually proud of you assholes, this was a good debate with no name calling, now if we can hide it from K we'll be alright
Im actually proud of you assholes, this was a good debate with no name calling, now if we can hide it from K we'll be alright
windwords7
Well-known member
Well done indeed!
1Fast400
Well-known member
That is why he is spending 0 bucks on the USFA, because he cares about his products so much that he doesn't want to protect them.
I've dealt with Bill L on the phone a few times. He has got to be the most out of control person I've ever seen. During one call, in which I was put on speaker phone, other workers at the place had to tell him to be quiet because he was getting out of control.
1Fast400
Well-known member
PA has done more for consumers in this industry than ANYONE else period (when it comes to PH). I'm not talking about inventing things either. I talking about behind the scenes with government stuff. The difference is, if Bill did it, he would want a congressional medal of honor.
YellowJacket
Banned
Dio said:
Yes, good point and not to mention we cant trash Bill since he's not here to defend himself.
1Fast400
Well-known member
Yes leave it to bill to compare his company (which advertises in almost every major mag and Europa mag) to one that has had all of its androgen based products pulled and has done no mainstream advertising.
Donations should not be correlated to what others do. You give what you can and go from there. If you all only knew what companies were actually giving...you'd **** a brick (not meaning $$ but just WHO is giving)
Dio
Member
1Fast400 said:
I have an idea who is involved, although certainly not to the extent you do.
I've already made some public comments to Bill about his attitude towards giving; they're in the same thread yours are in. If he's giving then he's giving; I may wish he was more involved but it's his company. BTW, Derek and his crew are using the same weak rhetoric about the bill.
1Fast400
Well-known member
Derek has a pretty tarnished image, not sure if having him on board would "help" that much. Syntrax and Molecular have a connection no doubt (molecular had to hold on releasing formestane due to syntrax not being ready yet, which is when PA beat him to the punch).
To this point, Bill has donated nothing.
K (Phoenix)
New member
Originally posted by windwords7
Real world evidence has never seemed to matter to these guys Curt.
If subject A uses Avant-X for 4 weeks and gains 15 pounds at a cost of 60 dollars and subject B ueses BDC-X for 4 weeks and gains 15 pounds at a cost of 40 dollars, who got the best results for the money? END OF SUBJECT
EXACTLY! yeah ! WTF? Sheeze, for a while I thought I have gone stupid or something. B/c I have been saying the same thing for ages, yet people still telling me the same **** over and over again!
YellowJacket
Banned
K (Phoenix) said:
I have been borrowing your quote quite a bit lately K ..
"Sometimes common knowledge will suffice over scientific proof" And in this situation as Jake layed out nicely, I think common sense applies in this situation. Everyone has an idea of whats in ONE+, we all know for sure whats in 1-T Pro, I dont think I would need to spell it all out at the request of someone. Par and the Avant boys want proof as to why BDC claims his is better, thats fine.... but answer me this after reading this quote by Par at Anabolex:
So what gives him the right to say this in reference to BDC's Products? Just because he has scientific documents he can say this whether its true or not? Or is it because he's Par Almighty that he can say this? Neither. Because he knows better.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
The topic was never which is more cost-effective. Par himself has admitted that homebrews are better in this regard. This is obvious to everyone.
The issues are, from Par's perspective (1) Evidence for claims and (2) Absorption percentage. NOT cost-effectiveness. Par believes he is better on both, and again, this is up for debate.
And as for this:
Did it ever occur to you guys that maybe Par has a dry sense of humor, and enjoys the reaction he gets when he jokes with someone on this subject?
The issues are, from Par's perspective (1) Evidence for claims and (2) Absorption percentage. NOT cost-effectiveness. Par believes he is better on both, and again, this is up for debate.
And as for this:
Did it ever occur to you guys that maybe Par has a dry sense of humor, and enjoys the reaction he gets when he jokes with someone on this subject?
YellowJacket
Banned
Gotcha on the 1st part as for his sense of humor.....well anyone with a sense of humor that pathetic needs flamed and thats exactly what he go. Its funny how he makes these claims as a "joke" I guess then when we do all hell breaks loose, very nice.SirSavageX said:
Did it ever occur to you guys that maybe Par has a dry sense of humor, and enjoys the reaction he gets when he jokes with someone on this subject?
1Fast400
Well-known member
Bill gets out of control everytime someone confronts him. Just look at any post that was a debate and you can see that. Also, this is the whole point of USFA. They hire lobbiest and put a panel of experts (meaning people who don't own businesses that sell this stuff) that talk about why we should keep such things legal. Bill wanted to redirect the question. He claims his company has no money (I say this as I look at his full page ad in muscular development). So if this were truely the case, he needs to stay at home in Florida and work.