Spirotanes in BAM cause HPTA inhibition??

[Terminator LMG]

Did I hear Author right in his interview at the ALRI website? He stated that the spirotanes found in BAM cause inhibition of the HPTA. But he added some ingredient to counteract that effect from happening??

Hmmm, so for everyone looking to incorporate BAM into their PCT, is it REALLY the best idea to do so IF there is the possibility of the spirotanes causing some HPTA inhibition when you're trying to ramp up your HPTA again? Plus, BAM raises estrogens levels to a level that is ideal and favorable for muscle growth. Again, would BAM then really be ideal to use in a pct as you're trying to lower estrogen to get the negative feedback loop for testosterone production to kick in. Yet BAM also claims an increase in LH/FSH production which will increase testosterone production. So I'm a bit confused. LOL!!

FitnFirm, Viperspit...any insight into this? And if you don't know, could you please ask Author? Thank you

 

[FitnFirm]

Did I hear Author right in his interview at the ALRI website? He stated that the spirotanes found in BAM cause inhibition of the HPTA. But he added some ingredient to counteract that effect from happening??

Hmmm, so for everyone looking to incorporate BAM into their post cycle therapy, is it REALLY the best idea to do so IF there is the possibility of the spirotanes causing some HPTA inhibition when you're trying to ramp up your HPTA again? Plus, BAM raises estrogens levels to a level that is ideal and favorable for muscle growth. Again, would BAM then really be ideal to use in a post cycle therapy as you're trying to lower estrogen to get the negative feedback loop for testosterone production to kick in. Yet BAM also claims an increase in LH/FSH production which will increase testosterone production. So I'm a bit confused. LOL!!

FitnFirm, Viperspit...any insight into this? And if you don't know, could you please ask Author? Thank you

Hey, in order for you to get the best answer can you please post this at our forum where he can answer it himself? He does not have time to come here but if you post this at our forum, I will make sure he sees it and answers it to you personally !

 

[Terminator LMG]

Hey, in order for you to get the best answer can you please post this at our forum where he can answer it himself? He does not have time to come here but if you post this at our forum, I will make sure he sees it and answers it to you personally !

Thank you FnF Headin' on over there now. Here's a link to the log I created over on the site.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[FitnFirm]

Thank you FnF Headin' on over there now. Here's a link to the log I created over on the site.

Invalid Link Removed

cool, email sent to him for heads up, I think he is traveling today though, not 100% sure.

 

[same_old]

if something binds to ARs, ER's or PgR's, it has the potential to suppress you. i would not use BAM for PCT...unless i was employing a "morning dbol" approach as a quasi-bridge, which many have found to be an effective practice.

 

[Terminator LMG]

if something binds to ARs, ER's or PgR's, it has the potential to suppress you. i would not use BAM for post cycle therapy...unless i was employing a "morning dbol" approach as a quasi-bridge, which many have found to be an effective practice.

Right. I believe I will be using Bad Ass Mass after my 4 weeks of pct. BAM will be the bridge into my next cycle.

:wave: Hey Fit, Dr. D recommends one cap of Mass FX for every 50lbs of body weight. So for me that would be 5 caps of Mass FX as I weigh 253lbs. Would I benefit more from 3 caps of BAM a day given my bodyweight??

 

[FitnFirm]

Right. I believe I will be using Bad Ass Mass after my 4 weeks of post cycle therapy. BAM will be the bridge into my next cycle.

:wave: Hey Fit, Dr. D recommends one cap of Mass FX for every 50lbs of body weight. So for me that would be 5 caps of Mass FX as I weigh 253lbs. Would I benefit more from 3 caps of BAM a day given my bodyweight??

ALR does not recommend taking more than the label dosages.

 

[FitnFirm]

Did I hear Author right in his interview at the ALRI website? He stated that the spirotanes found in BAM cause inhibition of the HPTA. But he added some ingredient to counteract that effect from happening??

Hmmm, so for everyone looking to incorporate BAM into their post cycle therapy, is it REALLY the best idea to do so IF there is the possibility of the spirotanes causing some HPTA inhibition when you're trying to ramp up your HPTA again? Plus, BAM raises estrogens levels to a level that is ideal and favorable for muscle growth. Again, would BAM then really be ideal to use in a post cycle therapy as you're trying to lower estrogen to get the negative feedback loop for testosterone production to kick in. Yet BAM also claims an increase in LH/FSH production which will increase testosterone production. So I'm a bit confused. LOL!!

FitnFirm, Viperspit...any insight into this? And if you don't know, could you please ask Author? Thank you

Authors Reply to Terminator-



As a whole post cycle therapy refers to Post Cycle Therapy and many equate that to post anabolic steroid use. But since we keep the discussions on AB to supplementation it changes the answer a little.

During any supplemental protocol that inhibits HPTA activity (Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testes Axis...the boys kickin' out the androgens they make due to series of other glands telling them to do so or not) there are two possible negative feed back loops that induce this response.

1) Estrogen negative feed back loop (too much estrogen)

2) Androgen negative feed back loop (Androgen over saturation/stimulation of the neuro-net)

So the normal goal is to get the estrogen level down while stimulating the pituitary and hypothalamus to start telling the testes to get back to work.

BAM has a 4-Spirosten that does cause a mild but effective increase in estrogen. Naturally this is intended as it is a synergist for support of a true pro-anabolic environ. Is it enough to cause HPTA suppression? Yes, but to a far lessor and more normal level, not excessive...and more importantly FAR less than would allow it to be among the group of products that would REQUIRE PCT. The suppression just is not that significant. It could be used as a bridge between suppressive products, which is what Max was likely referring to. But as an optimal PCT product Restore is better designed for this task. Make sense?

 

[jmh80]

Yeah - so I wouldn't use BAM for PCT after reading that.

I'd wait till afterwards to run it - maybe 2 to 3 weeks after PCT is completed.

Good thread Terminator - reps bro!

 

[same_old]

Right. I believe I will be using Bad Ass Mass after my 4 weeks of post cycle therapy. BAM will be the bridge into my next cycle.

strictly speaking, that isnt a bridge at all....the BAM will be the next cycle.

 

[Viperspit]

strictly speaking, that isnt a bridge at all....the BAM will be the next cycle.

Good point and definitely something to think about. Not that I have anything at all against cycling anabolic steroids or PH products, but you need to give your body a break every once in awhile.

 

[Terminator LMG]

strictly speaking, that isnt a bridge at all....the BAM will be the next cycle.

Unless some information has yet to be disclosed by ALRI, I hardly think BAM is on the same level as a scheduled III anabolic/androgen steroid or any of the PH products available. Is that what you're saying?

Strictly speaking, yes, I see your point. But if Author himself is stating that the use of BAM causes such an insignificant degree of HPTA inhibition that even a post cycle therapy is NOT required, then I hardly consider the use of BAM as a true cycle that is on the same level as Ergomax LMG, Phera Plex, testosterone, etc.

I guess a question to ask is "how much down regulation of the androgen receptors then does Bad Ass Mass cause?" Because if Author is saying that BAM is insignificantly suppressive to a degree that doesn't require a post cycle therapy, then the only other possibility for time off before starting a true cycle would be because of the down regulation / over stimulation of the androgen receptors.

Hmmm...I will post the above question on ALR's forums and se what he has to say

Actually, I've posted his responses below and it looks to me that BAM is perfectly suitable for a bridge between true cycles.

 

[Terminator LMG]

Yeah - so I wouldn't use BAM for post cycle therapy after reading that.

I'd wait till afterwards to run it - maybe 2 to 3 weeks after PCT is completed.

Good thread Terminator - reps bro!

Thanks I just happened to pick this bit of info out of Author's interview and thought it a good idea to further discuss as I think it's a pretty important issue for many. I was unaware of ANY suppression prior to listening to his interview and was fully planning on incorporating BAM into my pct. Now I will definitely be holding off until I can gather up some more information.

 

[Terminator LMG]

This quote was taken from the question I asked over at ALR Industries forums @ anabolicbeast.com.

Hi Author,

To what degree, if any, does BAM cause androgen receptor down regulation? Could an individual go directly from using BAM into an AAS cycle? If not, what would be the reasons for the time needed to be taken off?

Thank you so much for your time in response

Author's Response

Interesting question.

First androgens do not actually cause AR down regulation. Many studies support the belief that the actually increase the count and to a lessor extent sensitivity. However it appears that they do cause a degree on decreased returns through some mechanism. This is more likely a result of decreased transcription between mDNA and mRNA (if they are not talking, the proteins are not listening) as well as a function of an increase in myostatin which acts as a sort of muscle grow governor.

So, can BAM do this? Like anything that has binding ability to ARs this possibility does exist. Binding time and resonance being the first basis for deciding to what degree. In this case we are discussing a lesser degree and, assuming legal means to do so existed, there would be little need for "off" periods between. Make sense?

My response back to Author

Gotcha. So to reiterate what you have said thus far...the degree of HPTA suppression with BAM is so insignificant that pct is not required. However, it would be best to begin using BAM after finishing your pct. And, a decrease in the quantity of androgen receptors from using BAM is highly unlikely, although not impossible. Any reduction in AR's from the use of BAM however would be insignificant. And, an individual can go straight from using BAM into an AAS cycle if he so desired. Did I sum that up correctly?

Author, do individuals with more muscle mass on their frame need to take a higher dose of BAM? I currently weigh 250lbs at 13% BF. I think your testing group was between 180lbs and 210lbs?? I know that with JW I had to increase the dose and really experienced benefits from 4-5 caps. Will I more than likely need to take 3 caps of BAM to experience the same effects as those taking 2?

I was instructed that prolonged exposure to high levels of androgens causes down regulation of the AR and with up regulation of the AR being caused by a low level of androgens. Are these newer studies that are showing otherwise?

Off topic here...I thought DNA is DNA is DNA, and that it was only when dealing with ribonucleic acid that we got into different classifications such as messenger RNA, transfer RNA, etc. What is mDNA?

I will post his response to this question when he responds

 

[jmh80]

mDNA is messenger DNA, I think.

 

[Kiwi]

If BAM causes a slight rise in estrogen then why does the Evolution stack recommend that you stack BAM with JW and Restore? I.e. BAM raises estrogen and the other two supplements reduce estrogen, so would these supplements not just cancel each other out??

 

[Terminator LMG]

My response/question to Author
Gotcha. So to reiterate what you have said thus far...the degree of HPTA suppression with BAM is so insignificant that post cycle therapy is not required. However, it would be best to begin using BAM after finishing your post cycle therapy. And, a decrease in the quantity of androgen receptors from using BAM is highly unlikely, although not impossible. Any reduction in AR's from the use of BAM however would be insignificant. And, an individual can go straight from using BAM into an anabolic steroids cycle if he so desired. Did I sum that up correctly?

Author, do individuals with more muscle mass on their frame need to take a higher dose of BAM? I currently weigh 250lbs at 13% BF. I think your testing group was between 180lbs and 210lbs?? I know that with JW I had to increase the dose and really experienced benefits from 4-5 caps. Will I more than likely need to take 3 caps of BAM to experience the same effects as those taking 2?

I was instructed that prolonged exposure to high levels of androgens causes down regulation of the AR and with up regulation of the AR being caused by a low level of androgens. Are these newer studies that are showing otherwise?

Off topic here...I thought DNA is DNA is DNA, and that it was only when dealing with ribonucleic acid that we got into different classifications such as messenger RNA, transfer RNA, etc. What is mDNA?

Author's Response

Geez, perfect! Yes.

Okay, do you happen to have a copy of the old BTPB? If so there are several good research sites to look through in regard to AR up regulation but the two below are basic studies of some interest. Since AAS are not a topic on AB please forgive me for not digging deeper here.

J Appl Physiol. 2003 Mar;94(3):1153-61. Links
Overload-induced androgen receptor expression in the aged rat hindlimb receiving nandrolone decanoate.


Histochem Cell Biol. 2000 Jan;113(1):25-9. Links
The expression of androgen receptors in human neck and limb muscles: effects of training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids.

As to mDNA and mRNA...you are correct, it is a bastardized term for the template/relaying of info and the eventual cellular occurrences I have fallen into the habit of using to get a point expressed quickly...there is a message relayed...not merely an AR binding and growth occurs. lol

 

[Terminator LMG]

If BAM causes a slight rise in estrogen then why does the Evolution stack recommend that you stack BAM with JW and Restore? I.e. BAM raises estrogen and the other two supplements reduce estrogen, so would these supplements not just cancel each other out??

Excellent question, and I have wondered the same myself. One of the mechanisms by which BAM is suppose to induce its positive effects is by elevating estrogen levels to that "perfect" level that is conducive to muscle growth. Well then, how can that occur if people are stacking BAM with Jungle Warfare and Restore, as the AI's in both will prevent BAM from achieving that successful level of estrogen that is so conducive to muscle growth? There are a few options for answers that I can see, but I'd like to hear what ALRI has to say about it.

NOTE: I just posted this question over on ALR Industries forums at anabolicbeast.com. I'll post his reply when he responds.

 

[FitnFirm]

Excellent question, and I have wondered the same myself. One of the mechanisms by which BAM is suppose to induce its positive effects is by elevating estrogen levels to that "perfect" level that is conducive to muscle growth. Well then, how can that occur if people are stacking BAM with Jungle Warfare and Restore, as the AI's in both will prevent BAM from achieving that successful level of estrogen that is so conducive to muscle growth? There are a few options for answers that I can see, but I'd like to hear what ALRI has to say about it.

NOTE: I just posted this question over on ALR Industries forums at anabolicbeast.com. I'll post his reply when he responds.

Yes, Very interesting because the testers we have using the Evo stack vs. just BAM are doing better and having more positive results. More weight gain, more strength, more muscle gain, more BF% loss.

Thanks for working hard on getting the answers you need, I have been waiting a week or so for some questions I had sent ALR. He is so busy right now and he is the only one who can really answer these type of questions.

I havent been to our forum yet to check out the posts as we just got power back a little bit ago and the power surge we had fried my monitor I have crappy old one now Please feel sorry for me lol

 

[Terminator LMG]

Yes, Very interesting because the testers we have using the Evo stack vs. just BAM are doing better and having more positive results. More weight gain, more strength, more muscle gain, more BF% loss.

Thanks for working hard on getting the answers you need, I have been waiting a week or so for some questions I had sent ALR. He is so busy right now and he is the only one who can really answer these type of questions.

I havent been to our forum yet to check out the posts as we just got power back a little bit ago and the power surge we had fried my monitor I have crappy old one now Please feel sorry for me lol

I vote we chain and duct tape Author to a computer chair for a week....wait a minute....I don't think any of us are big enough to actually do that....damn :think:

No problem about the questions! :cheers: I have always enjoyed knowing just exactly how and why different supplements do what they do. It's not enough for me to just read a product description and be content with it. It's more a hobby for me.

I had a feeling that adding JW to the mix with BAM would improve results moreso than slightly elevating estrogen. JW on it's own was pretty wicked, so stacked with BAM it makes sense that testers would gain more lean mass and strength.

Crappy computer huh? Ok, I feel sorry for you!! My wife and I just recently upgraded from a dial up internet connection if that makes you feel any better! LOL!! Take care.

 

[same_old]

Unless some information has yet to be disclosed by ALRI, I hardly think BAM is on the same level as a scheduled III anabolic/androgen steroid or any of the PH products available. Is that what you're saying?

Strictly speaking, yes, I see your point. But if Author himself is stating that the use of BAM causes such an insignificant degree of HPTA inhibition that even a post cycle therapy is NOT required, then I hardly consider the use of BAM as a true cycle that is on the same level as Ergomax LMG, Phera Plex, testosterone, etc.

I guess a question to ask is "how much down regulation of the androgen receptors then does Bad Ass Mass cause?" Because if Author is saying that BAM is insignificantly suppressive to a degree that doesn't require a post cycle therapy, then the only other possibility for time off before starting a true cycle would be because of the down regulation / over stimulation of the androgen receptors.

Hmmm...I will post the above question on ALR's forums and se what he has to say

Actually, I've posted his responses below and it looks to me that BAM is perfectly suitable for a bridge between true cycles.

bro, you can use the stuff anyway you want...but i personally think it's good practice to not take the word of the salesman on the effects of the merchandise....this is an utterly untested "androgen", and its inhibitory effects are unknown. you want to risk your PCT by using it, have at it.

and ALR never said he doesnt think it's suppressive. YOU said that. this is all he said:

So, can BAM do this? Like anything that has binding ability to ARs this possibility does exist. Binding time and resonance being the first basis for deciding to what degree. In this case we are discussing a lesser degree and, assuming legal means to do so existed, there would be little need for "off" periods between. Make sense?

so his answer is "maybe"..."a lesser degree"...which for me, is the safe answer, and completely insufficient for me to trust that it wont.

 

[Terminator LMG]

bro, you can use the stuff anyway you want...but i personally think it's good practice to not take the word of the salesman on the effects of the merchandise....this is an utterly untested "androgen", and its inhibitory effects are unknown. you want to risk your post cycle therapy by using it, have at it.

Please don't take this personally because it is not intended as such, but I'd rather go straight to the source and creator of the compound than take the opinion a faceless forum member whom I have no idea what kind of educational and clinical background he or she may have. You make excellent points, and I do agree to some degree that it is simply too early to tell whether or not BAM would be safe to use after a post cycle therapy. I think it best to start using a couple weeks after finishing a successful pct. That I believe could be answered by bloodwork. Author is a verifiable source however, and has spent the last couple of years researching these compounds, and knows more about these compounds than any of us on these forums. And although he is a salesman, that doesn't discredit the statements he is making about his own product. He has safety and legality issues to consider as well in his statements.

Re-read the following

My response/question to Author

Gotcha. So to reiterate what you have said thus far...the degree of HPTA suppression with BAM is so insignificant that post cycle therapy is not required. However, it would be best to begin using BAM after finishing your post cycle therapy. And, a decrease in the quantity of androgen receptors from using BAM is highly unlikely, although not impossible. Any reduction in AR's from the use of BAM however would be insignificant. And, an individual can go straight from using BAM into an anabolic steroids cycle if he so desired. Did I sum that up correctly?


Author's Response

Geez, perfect! Yes.

I didn't state that I'd be using BAM as part of my post cycle therapy. I asked if it would be a good idea to use either during post cycle therapy or after post cycle therapy. Base on what Author says above, BAM is safe to use after a successful post cycle therapy.

and ALR never said he doesnt think it's suppressive. YOU said that. this is all he said:

so his answer is "maybe"..."a lesser degree"...which for me, is the safe answer, and completely insufficient for me to trust that it wont

No, no, and no. This is what Author said and you can find it in FitnFirms post up above with Author's first response to my first question. You can also find it here at anabolicbeast. Invalid Link Removed

BAM has a 4-Spirosten that does cause a mild but effective increase in estrogen. Naturally this is intended as it is a synergist for support of a true pro-anabolic environ. Is it enough to cause HPTA suppression? Yes, but to a far lessor and more normal level, not excessive...and more importantly FAR less than would allow it to be among the group of products that would REQUIRE post cycle therapy. The suppression just is not that significant. It could be used as a bridge between suppressive products, which is what Max was likely referring to. But as an optimal PCT product Restore is better designed for this task. Make sense?

Again...and more importantly FAR less than would allow it to be among the group of products that would REQUIRE post cycle therapy. The suppression just is not that significant. It could be used as a bridge between suppressive products.


So there we have it. BAM can be used as a bridge between suppressive products because the degree of HPTA inhibition is so insignificant. Now again I do NOT think it is best for pct at all. But 4 weeks after a pct, sure why not.

 

[same_old]

So there we have it. BAM can be used as a bridge between suppressive products because the degree of HPTA inhibition is so insignificant. Now again I do NOT think it is best for post cycle therapy at all. But 4 weeks after a post cycle therapy, sure why not.

LMAO....why did you even bother asking the question, if you were going to draw your own conclusion based on whatever flawed logic you wanted to believe?

"acceptable for use after a successful PCT" is NOT the same as, not even close to: "can be [responsibly] used as a bridge between successive cycles"

if you cant see that, i hope other, more conscientious people can.

 

[Terminator LMG]

LMAO....why did you even bother asking the question, if you were going to draw your own conclusion based on whatever flawed logic you wanted to believe?

"acceptable for use after a successful post cycle therapy" is NOT the same as, not even close to: "can be [responsibly] used as a bridge between successive cycles"

if you cant see that, i hope other, more conscientious people can.

I believe that you are the one reading into and drawing your own conclusions based on your own logic. At no point in any of my questions to author, nor in his responses, does the phrase "can be [responsibly] used as a bridge between successive cycles." If YOU think it is irresponsible to use BAM as a bridge between cycles, then that's you're opinion. We are however discussion facts here and not morality. Author has made no mention of it being "irresponsible" to use BAM between cycles. In fact, he's stated that it is alright to do.

I personally prefer contributing to the forums here at AM moreso that other forums due to the quality of discussion members engage in. Let's keep it that way. This is coming down to "no I'm right mommy...no I'm the one who's right." That doesn't help anyone.

I need to requote this....

LMAO....why did you even bother asking the question, if you were going to draw your own conclusion based on whatever flawed logic you wanted to believe?.

How is my logic flawed? I asked a question and Author responded. I wanted further clarification, so I re-phrased what Author stated, and in his own words he stated "Geez, Perfect! Yes!" in response to what I rephrased. If I was in any part wrong, he would not have responded in the manor in which he did. So I did not read into anything. The quotes are up above for all to read.

Please show us where my logic is flawed. Again, if Author is concurring with my rephrasing, I hardly see how I am reading into any of this.


Let's do this. Tell us why you think using BAM as a bridge between cycles is irresponsible? What if BAM was discontinued a couple weeks prior to the cycle starting...would that still be "irresponsible" to you? Clarify please.

 

[same_old]

BAM suppresses natty test. even the salesman says so. how much? nobody knows.

conventional wisdom says not to use anything suppressive during PCT (and by the way, a bridge is defined as use of drug DURING PCT, thru to the next cycle...not in between)

is it starting to make sense? you've twisted the info to try and rationalize BAM as a bridge, but you're ignoring the obvious.

or is it that you think ALR's predictions about what this drug may or may not do are more important than the actual feedback about its suppressive nature? if that's the case, then no clinic on logic will help.

 

[Terminator LMG]

BAM suppresses natty test. even the salesman says so. how much? nobody knows. .

You are equating the "insignificant" amount of HPTA inhibition that BAM cause with the massively significant HPTA inhibition that superdrol, PP, ergo, testosterone, Dbol, etc causes. The degree is not the same!! Author has clearly stated that the level of suppression is so insignificant that a post cycle therapy isn't required. This is likely due to the elevation of LH and FSH that BAM causes. LH and FSH are two key hormones necessary for testosterone production and hence the "insignificance" that any minor elevation in estrogen might have on the HPTA.

conventional wisdom says not to use anything suppressive during post cycle therapy

Agreed. I wasn't advocating or stating I would use BAM DURING post cycle therapy, or that anybody should. I even stated that it is best to use it AFTER post cycle therapy. You seem to be missing this in my posts.

(and by the way, a bridge is defined as use of drug DURING post cycle therapy, thru to the next cycle...not in between).

You're probably missing that I'm not saying to use BAM during post cycle therapy because we have different ideas of what a "bridge cycle" is. A simple miscommunication. If that is the true definition of a bridge, then I have been mistaken this entire time. My understanding of a bridge product is a product used between cycles and AFTER post cycle therapy to bridge one cycle to the next cycle. Examples of such bridge products (from my understanding) would be an NHA stack like Rebound Reloaded and ActivaTE or Jungle Warfare. A bridge product in my understanding is anything administered that is not hormonal. While NHA stacks influence hormone levels by raising testosterone levels, you aren't administering testosterone directly (which would yield suppression). It makes NO sense to me to use a suppressive compound DURING a post cycle therapy to bridge a cycle. That would totally distort the entire purpose and point of a post cycle therapy which is to restore homeostasis in the HPTA axis.

is it starting to make sense? you've twisted the info to try and rationalize BAM as a bridge, but you're ignoring the obvious.

or is it that you think ALR's predictions about what this drug may or may not do are more important than the actual feedback about its suppressive nature? if that's the case, then no clinic on logic will help.

What makes sense to me is that I've gone directly to Author L. Rea and asked if it is alright to use BAM inbetween cycles and after post cycle therapy. He has stated yes.

What YOU perceive as twisting of information may simply be a miscommunication between the two of us on what a "bridge" is. But what I don't understand is how you believe I have twisted the information when I have asked Author if it is alright to use BAM after a post cycle therapy and he has responded with a resounding "yes." If you don't like his answer, then take it up with him over on anabolicbeast and pick his brain. When you're done doing so, copy and paste the answers back over hear and contribute some objective information to this thread, rather than offering nothing but "what ifs".

According to your logic, anybody who runs cycles can never use BAM because you're equating the "insignificant" HPTA inhibition as being equal to the massively significant HPTA inhibition caused by superdrol, PP, ergo, test, etc. The fact is that BAM elevates LH and FSH, two key hormones that are essential for test production. And this is why any inhibition that MAY be caused by the slight elevation in estrogen is insignificant. Is this starting to make sense now? Have you read the product write up yet??? The inhibition is SO minor that it is insignificant. Yet during a critical stage such as post cycle therapy you would not want to use it. After those 4 weeks of post cycle therapy, then go for it. I have stated this before.

I have done everything to try and further the information here in this thread. You're simply speculating on "what ifs" that you have made no effort to seek any answers to. When you do, feel free to comeback and contribute.

I appreciate the debate as it only benefits everyone here. Yet a debate can no longer further itself when one side bases their argument off of pure speculation, which is what you have done and are doing. Again, go over to anabolicbeast and start a thread with Author to discus this. We have already concluded from Author's own words that it is alright to use BAM after a pct.

 

[same_old]

Is this starting to make sense now? Have you read the product write up yet??? The inhibition is SO minor that it is insignificant. Yet during a critical stage such as post cycle therapy you would not want to use it. After those 4 weeks of post cycle therapy, then go for it. I have stated this before.

I have done everything to try and further the information here in this thread. You're simply speculating on "what ifs" that you have made no effort to seek any answers to. When you do, feel free to comeback and contribute.

I appreciate the debate as it only benefits everyone here. Yet a debate can no longer further itself when one side bases their argument off of pure speculation, which is what you have done and are doing. Again, go over to anabolicbeast and start a thread with Author to discus this. We have already concluded from Author's own words that it is alright to use BAM after a post cycle therapy.

holy crap bro. i cant teach a pig to dance.

would someone else step in here and speak this fella's language? because apparently he isnt getting it. let me requote myself:

or is it that you think ALR's predictions about what this drug may or may not do are more important than the actual feedback about its suppressive nature? if that's the case, then no clinic on logic will help.

please reread.

if you want to guinea pig BAM, go ahead - but do NOT post preliminary conjecture about a product's suppressiveness as if it were fact, ok? that's irresponsible considering the (increasingly younger and more impatient) audience.

a little flashback....

DS said superdrol would be milder than M1T. well, the lipid panels have not shown that, at all.

Max LMG was purported as anti-progestinic, and would reduce progestin sides. it isnt, and it doesnt. folks have gotten prolactin gyno on it.

see a trend?

 

[FitnFirm]

holy crap bro. i cant teach a pig to dance.

would someone else step in here and speak this fella's language? because apparently he isnt getting it. let me requote myself:



please reread.

if you want to guinea pig BAM, go ahead - but do NOT post preliminary conjecture about a product's suppressiveness as if it were fact, ok? that's irresponsible considering the (increasingly younger and more impatient) audience.

a little flashback....

DS said superdrol would be milder than M1T. well, the lipid panels have not shown that, at all.

Max LMG was purported as anti-progestinic, and would reduce progestin sides. it isnt, and it doesnt. folks have gotten prolactin gyno on it.

see a trend?

Having a bad day dude? :blink:

 

[Terminator LMG]

Having a bad day dude? :blink:

Nah, I think he's just upset because he can't produce a single shred of evidence against what Author L. Rea has stated about his product. Some people just jump to conclusions and assume the worst with everything :fool2:

I bet he's the kind of guy that waits 2 years to try a product and then carefully weighs out each pill on a scale to make sure it meets label claims...that is after he carefully inspects each capsule for needle holes like candy being given to a 6 year old on halloween. :toofunny:

No wait, I've got a better one. Maybe the episode of American Idol that he auditioned on aired last week and he's pissed because not only are his friends making fun of him for being an Idol reject, but the whole country is laughing at him :nutkick: :rofl:

Ok, I'm sorry. Now I'm just being immature.

 

[Terminator LMG]

if you want to guinea pig BAM, go ahead - but do NOT post preliminary conjecture about a product's suppressiveness as if it were fact, ok? that's irresponsible considering the (increasingly younger and more impatient) audience.

*Sigh*....deep breath...dude, this is what Author said. Not me. I'm simply contributing information straight from the horses mouth to this forum. You have posted yet another post with absolutely ZERO information to prove your point...just more speculation on your part.

Again, take it up with Author bro, not me. These are his words, not mine. I'm not the one posting "preliminary conjecture", Author is. I'm bringing what he has stated over to this forum for everyone to read.

that's irresponsible considering the (increasingly younger and more impatient) audience.

Irresponsible is making posts like you have as if they were fact, with absolutely zero effort on your part to provide any objective data to support your speculations and "what ifs". I must apologize though as I forgot you've personally met every forum member on these boards and you happen to know they're all kids running around here.

a little flashback....

DS said superdrol would be milder than M1T. well, the lipid panels have not shown that, at all.

superdrol may not be milder on the lipids, but it's milder on the muscle cramps, lethary, depression and HPTA suppression (although still suppressive, yet not nearly as destructive as M1T was in 2 weeks). Just because it isn't milder on lipids doesn't mean that it isn't milder OVERALL. I seem to sense that when you have one tiny piece of data, you tend to make wide and sweeping generalizations with that informtion, yet you make no effort to prove otherwise. I sense a trend here with you.

Max LMG was purported as anti-progestinic, and would reduce progestin sides. it isnt, and it doesnt. folks have gotten prolactin gyno on it.
see a trend?

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. BAM is not on the same level as superdrol or Max LMG.

The key word you're missing with this one is that it would "REDUCE" progestin sides, not completely ELIMINATE progestin sides. It was a progestin derived steroid!! LOL!! What the hell did people expect? Anyone not aware of the potential side effects from progestin based compounds should never have touched them.

The unfortunate side of the coin with the early designer products was that in order for them to be available to us, the companies could not disclose a whole heck of a lot of information about them. People were asking and unfortunately never received any answers. Companies were tyring to rebound from a major loss in their sales of prohormones. Designer products walked on the borderline of legality. Hence the silence.

We can freely ask questions about these products and receive answers because they do not challenge or walk on the boarder line of legality like the designer products did. I asked Author, he gave a straight forward answer. Again, if you don't like it, go take it up with him.

And for the 10 billionth time I am not advocating that ANYBODY use this product during post cycle therapy. Please, read, read, read and get this through your head!! Nor am I stating that I am or will be using it in a post cycle therapy. YOU ARE MISSING THIS VERY KEY POINT!!! And damn bro, anyone can use a frickin' AI with the product if they are so damn convinced like you are that an earth shattering amount of unproported suppression is going to occur....which it won't, because again, Author, the man who has spent the last few years working very closely with they compounds has stated so.

I would be much more concerned if I were you if Author failed to mention any amount of insignificant inhibition being a possibility. That he has come out and openly discussed it however says to me the guy is being honest.

 

[same_old]

no rebuttal necessary.

 

[Terminator LMG]

no rebuttal necessary.

No rebuttal was ever necessary on your part to begin with. Objective and verifiable information to support your point was. I understand that companies make false claims and that pct is no time to include new and untested products, hence my continued belief that BAM should only be used after a successful pct has been completed. Yet you act as if ALR Industries is not being truthful. Again, I would be more worried if Author didn't say anything about the minor and insignificant levels of HPTA suppression that BAM may cause. He's been up front and forth coming about it. It's not like users will find out months down the road from blood results that they might be slightly suppressed liked users of SD found out later about the destruction SD caused on their lipids.

 

[swole210]

Hey Terminator! Awesome job on working hard and digging up some very good questions about BAM and such! It's a good thing you have taken it upon your self to find out about these things straight form the lions mouth. I would have probably tried using BAM as an addition to a PCT protocol had I not read this thread. Props to you for posting your questions as well as the replies you got from Author, and informing others on a very valid topic! Again thanks, as you got some of my questions answered!:study:

 

[Terminator LMG]

Hey Terminator! Awesome job on working hard and digging up some very good questions about BAM and such! It's a good thing you have taken it upon your self to find out about these things straight form the lions mouth. I would have probably tried using BAM as an addition to a post cycle therapy protocol had I not read this thread. Props to you for posting your questions as well as the replies you got from Author, and informing others on a very valid topic! Again thanks, as you got some of my questions answered!:study:

No prob :cheers: Glad I could help out.

 

[Terminator LMG]

Hey, you know, I was just kickin' around ideas and you guys can tell me what you think.

I think that Bad Ass Mass would actually be a great addition after post cycle therapy. Reason being is that most of us are still using the designer compounds that tend to negatively affect cholesterol values one way or another. Add that to the use AI's that are heavily suppressive to estrogen levels (low estrogen levles aren't necessarily the best for cholesterol values either.) So although the typical cycle of an AI is start high and slowly ween yourself off with a lower dosage week by week, I'm guessing that cholesterol values still aren't fully recovered even at the end of a post cycle therapy.

I think that due to the minor and favorable level of estrogen elevation that BAM causes, that it would make a great addition to a post-post cycle therapy stack. That way you're restoring your estrogen levels to a healthy level that is favorable to good cholesterol values and you can focus on recovering your lipids with fish oils and red yeast rice.

 

[swole210]

Hey, you know, I was just kickin' around ideas and you guys can tell me what you think.

I think that Bad Ass Mass would actually be a great addition after post cycle therapy. Reason being is that most of us are still using the designer compounds that tend to negatively affect cholesterol values one way or another. Add that to the use AI's that are heavily suppressive to estrogen levels (low estrogen levles aren't necessarily the best for cholesterol values either.) So although the typical cycle of an AI is start high and slowly ween yourself off with a lower dosage week by week, I'm guessing that cholesterol values still aren't fully recovered even at the end of a post cycle therapy.

I think that due to the minor and favorable level of estrogen elevation that BAM causes, that it would make a great addition to a post-post cycle therapy stack. That way you're restoring your estrogen levels to a healthy level and you can focus on recovering your lipids with fish oils and red yeast rice.

You bring up a pretty good and interesting point there Terminator! I know I have been pretty sensitive to some of the PS or PH with regards to blood pressure issues, and I have noticed BP still pretty high while on my PCT, probably due to the almost total eradication of estrogen form some of these Ai's. So perhaps it isn't that bad for PCT as we are starting to think it is:blink: .

 

[Terminator LMG]

You bring up a pretty good and interesting point there Terminator! I know I have been pretty sensitive to some of the PS or PH with regards to blood pressure issues, and I have noticed BP still pretty high while on my post cycle therapy, probably due to the almost total eradication of estrogen form some of these Ai's. So perhaps it isn't that bad for PCT as we are starting to think it is:blink: .

Thanks. I think that even if BAM was used in pct, the use of the serm or AI would negate any effects that BAM has on estrogen levels anyways. I think though that adding BAM after a pct would be very beneficial in restoring estrogen levels to a level that is also favorable to healthy cholesterol.

 

[same_old]

I know I have been pretty sensitive to some of the PS or PH with regards to blood pressure issues, and I have noticed BP still pretty high while on my post cycle therapy, probably due to the almost total eradication of estrogen form some of these Ai's.

generally HBP issues on-cycle arise from water retention, glycogen surplus (leading to excess salt), or anxiety (EQ, tren). never heard of low E causing it, at least in the short term...what mechanism do you suspect?

unless you just confused HBP with cholesterol??? :think:

 

[Viperspit]

Guys, I'm really not trying to be an ass here, but this is going off topic again and relating to AAS/PCT.

While I have nothing against the usage of steroids, there is a forum for these types of discussions, there is also a PCT forum.

I kindly ask you to discuss these matters in those forums and let's keep this one for ALR related supps and/or usage with other OTC supps.

Thanks in advance.

 

[swole210]

Guys, I'm really not trying to be an ass here, but this is going off topic again and relating to anabolic steroids/post cycle therapy.

While I have nothing against the usage of steroids, there is a forum for these types of discussions, there is also a PCT forum.

I kindly ask you to discuss these matters in those forums and let's keep this one for ALR related supps and/or usage with other OTC supps.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry Viper! But I my self am relating to BAM in the use of PCT for over the counter stuff, which is still legal, and have given me HBP issues in the past. I know a lot of these orals are harsh on lipid values, and are also anti estrogenic in them self. I also know that most of the otc PCT stuff I have taken such as the various AI's, crush estrogen levels even further, and that does pertain to HBP issues. So That brings me again to wonder if BAM would really not be a bad idea for PCT, given it cause the "right" amount of e to be produced:think: . Just wondering , and trying to get my now confused head straight:fool2: !

 

[FitnFirm]

Sorry Viper! But I my self am relating to BAM in the use of post cycle therapy for over the counter stuff, which is still legal, and have given me HBP issues in the past. I know a lot of these orals are harsh on lipid values, and are also anti estrogenic in them self. I also know that most of the otc PCT stuff I have taken such as the various AI's, crush estrogen levels even further, and that does pertain to HBP issues. So That brings me again to wonder if BAM would really not be a bad idea for PCT, given it cause the "right" amount of e to be produced:think: . Just wondering , and trying to get my now confused head straight:fool2: !

BAM is not marketed for PCT. Using our product in this manner is your decision.

 

[swole210]

BAM is not marketed for post cycle therapy. Using our product in this manner is your decision.

Thanks FnF for clearing that up. Allthough I never did see it marketed as such, I guess I was assuming it could be used in PCT.. Anywho, I will be using the Evo stak very , very soon, along w/AP. I have been off my PCT for over 2 months now, so I have not used anything other than food and multi's. SO time for me to get some help in the supplemtation dept., and the Evo stack is what I chose! Again, I was just curious to the whole BAM/ PCT thing, and asking questions and allthough it is my choice to use in what ever fashion I wish, I will use it as you guys recomend...as a BAD ASS CYCLE! Thanks again!:wave:

 

[FitnFirm]

Thanks FnF for clearing that up. Allthough I never did see it marketed as such, I guess I was assuming it could be used in post cycle therapy.. Anywho, I will be using the Evo stak very , very soon, along w/AP. I have been off my post cycle therapy for over 2 months now, so I have not used anything other than food and multi's. SO time for me to get some help in the supplemtation dept., and the Evo stack is what I chose! Again, I was just curious to the whole BAM/ PCT thing, and asking questions and allthough it is my choice to use in what ever fashion I wish, I will use it as you guys recomend...as a BAD ASS CYCLE! Thanks again!:wave:

If you follow this link Invalid Link Removed you can see the two cycles we have for cutting and bulking. You have made a great choice and I am sure you will be happy with that stack. We have quite a few logs going and some are coming to an end right now and have been running the stack for 30 days, so you can learn how others haveprogressed.

Let me know if you have any other questions !

 

[Terminator LMG]

Guys, I'm really not trying to be an ass here, but this is going off topic again and relating to anabolic steroids/post cycle therapy.

While I have nothing against the usage of steroids, there is a forum for these types of discussions, there is also a post cycle therapy forum.

I kindly ask you to discuss these matters in those forums and let's keep this one for ALR related supps and/or usage with other OTC supps.

Thanks in advance.

No prob Viper. I forget sometimes and I certainly didn't plan for the conversation to evolve as such. :cheers:



I'll rock this party over to a more appropriate forum.

:djparty:

 

[same_old]

I also know that most of the otc PCT stuff I have taken such as the various AI's, crush estrogen levels even further, and that does pertain to HBP issues. So That brings me again to wonder if BAM would really not be a bad idea for PCT, given it cause the "right" amount of e to be produced

where did you read that LOW E causes elevated BP? the general consensus is that HIGH E would cause it, due to water retention.

 

[Terminator LMG]

where did you read that LOW E causes elevated BP? the general consensus is that HIGH E would cause it, due to water retention.

Swole210,

I have to agree with same_old on this one. Elevated estrogen is going to cause higher levels of water retention, which will likely result in elevated blood pressure. Low estrogen levels, resulting in a net loss of water retention should decrese blood pressure. It is the low estrogen levels that can have a negative effect on your lipid profiles, but not blood pressure.

 

[swole210]

Swole210,

I have to agree with same_old on this one. Elevated estrogen is going to cause higher levels of water retention, which will likely result in elevated blood pressure. Low estrogen levels, resulting in a net loss of water retention should decrese blood pressure. It is the low estrogen levels that can have a negative effect on your lipid profiles, but not blood pressure.

That is what I was trying to get at, that low estrogen levels are bad for your lipid profile, which in turn is bad for your BP. Now on the short term it is noe problem I'm sure, but after a 4-6 week cycle of an oral which is harsh on your lipid profile and also is very anti estrogenic, and then going another 4 weeks or so on some of these very strong otc Ai's, then this will not help out your lipid profile, but keep it in a negative state for a mcuh longer time, which could in turn(I think:blink: ) can cause some bp problems. Now I may be wrong and just miss understood some information, or mis interpreted it, but I have noticed my bp staying elavated through PCT,when taking an Ai, right after an oral cycle in which my bp was increased. I've noticed a reduction in my bp after I've been off my pct for a bit:think:. But you guys are totally right about high estrogen levels cause high bp due to the increased water rentention( like in a wet Test Cypionate and Dianabol cycle:twisted: ). Oh crap.... I started jabbing away, and I think I got off the original topic again ! Thanks Terminator and same old for your input on this guys:thumbsup:

 

[maddenizor]

Very interesting read