SOMETIMES EVEN Science Can't Help Save You--Media TRUMPS Science??

[El Machete]

Yeah, ummm - Join date of Jan 2016 with two posts... is this stuff company/council approved? I can't believe it is, it's not helping in my opinion, but it ain't my company

And I hate to rehash the facts, but OEP changed formulas more than once El Machete - it's only after the Cynanchum was added, that the problems seemed to crop up.

No, why? Did I need their permission to talk about this? BTW, this stuff is apPROVED by credible physicians that don't hide important information, misrepresent facts or commit malpractice by putting their patients in danger. Investigate the reporting doctors. If your mother had some type of liver injury, would you take her to the hospital in Hawaii or to one of the specialists that wrote the study posted by the rep? Oh, but you're right. I've only posted here twice so my opinion must be irrelevant. Guess you jumped in here in Dec '14 as a moderator of some sort. I didn't disrespect you but then again I don't have to when I have have facts to back up what I say. Also, I'' go ahead and refresh some more facts. I don't recall any of the media hype mentioning a specific ingredient AT ALL, nor did the doctors that did the reporting blaming the product. They only mentioned OEP. It wasn't until the FDA needed something more 'substantial' that they decided to come out and say "oh, it was the aegeline", without any proof btw. Now they're saying it's Cynanchum angustifolium? Why the flip flop? I guess since they said it, it must be true. Or did they prove it with their in-depth, thorough, honest analysis of the patients? Come on man, look at the facts... Pretty soon we will all have to go to a doctor a pay out the butt for prescriptions for vitamins. But you go ahead and place your money on the FDA and those quacks in Hawaii. My money's on the facts.

 

[T-Bone]

Speculators gonna speculate.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

No, why? Did I need their permission to talk about this? BTW, this stuff is apPROVED by credible physicians that don't hide important information, misrepresent facts or commit malpractice by putting their patients in danger. Investigate the reporting doctors. If your mother had some type of liver injury, would you take her to the hospital in Hawaii or to one of the specialists that wrote the study posted by the rep? Oh, but you're right. I've only posted here twice so my opinion must be irrelevant. Guess you jumped in here in Dec '14 as a moderator of some sort. I didn't disrespect you but then again I don't have to when I have have facts to back up what I say. Also, I'' go ahead and refresh some more facts. I don't recall any of the media hype mentioning a specific ingredient AT ALL, nor did the doctors that did the reporting blaming the product. They only mentioned OEP. It wasn't until the FDA needed something more 'substantial' that they decided to come out and say "oh, it was the aegeline", without any proof btw. Now they're saying it's Cynanchum angustifolium? Why the flip flop? I guess since they said it, it must be true. Or did they prove it with their in-depth, thorough, honest analysis of the patients? Come on man, look at the facts... Pretty soon we will all have to go to a doctor a pay out the butt for prescriptions for vitamins. But you go ahead and place your money on the FDA and those quacks in Hawaii. My money's on the facts.

I didn't know jack about USPLabs' past indiscretions - no offense, but they ain't exactly like the big boys in the supplement game - the "Media" had nothing to do with my opinion. I just read the 11 count indictment and did my own research on the parts that interested me, ie. the ingredients. I don't GAS about Aegeline - never heard of it - and every time I do, I shake my head at it's use as a Red Herring/Shill defense. *I* found out on my own (with the help of Sergy Brinn) that Cynanchum Auriculatum causes 100% abortions in pregnant pigs when they are fed even small amounts of it, and is listed in the Dept of Agriculture's Poison Plant Database. Maybe I should give some to my pregnant mother? The entire country of South Korea also wanted every bit of that root out of their country too, and it had nothing to do with OEP.

A root by the way, that your honorable and above board favorite company lied about on the label - it was all just crushed root and not an extract - but hey, since they knew they were lying, they figured there wasn't enough of anything that would really do anything for fat loss (or damage), in there. Integrity baby.

Go ahead and tell me about the defenses for the other 10 counts of the indictment - I'm all ears. Maybe post up, for the eleventeenth time, the .pdf paid for by Covington & Burling about how it was all 'Aleve'.

And, serious question here, is Hawaii the only place in the country where injury was reported? Not even one more, anywhere else? Because I recall that there were some CONUS too.

And BTW, I think I always say 'Alleged' and we'll see what happens in court. I know the USG blows stuff up bigger than life... but doze emails doh...

But I suggest creating new "Innocence" threads every couple months so we can all talk about the 11 count indictment again and again. It's not like everyone said their peace in the first thread that got locked after it ran its course and didn't bring it up again... UNTIL THIS ONE WAS POSTED.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Speculators gonna speculate.

And Shills gonna Shill.

 

[El Machete]

PES did not use Cynanchum Auriculatum, correct? That mofo has some seriously bad data to go along with it.

How do you know this?

Most all ingredients or compounds have side-effects but when the benefit outweighs them it’s great. Example; caffeine makes you jittery, but it also improves alertness and reinforces memory. Also, anything that may be beneficial taken in massive amounts can be toxic. I’ll use caffeine as an example again for this.

I did a little research about Cynanchum Auriculatum since I had never heard of it until you mentioned it was the cause for the liver issues (contrary to what the liver specialists in the study said, btw).

What I found was Cynanchum Auriculatum has many uses including an antioxidant effect, immunomodulating, antitumor, antihyperlipidemia, hair growth promoting and antidepressant effects, to name a few.

I.
Title: A C21-Steroidal Glycoside Isolated from the Roots of Cynanchum auriculatum Induces Cell Cycle Arrest and Apoptosis in Human Gastric Cancer SGC-7901 Cells
“In conclusion, CGII inhibits cell growth of human gastric cancer cells by inducing G1 phase cell cycle arrest and caspase-dependent apoptosis cascades.” Source: www(dot)hindawi(dot)com/journals/ecam/2013/180839/

II.
“3.1.6. Cynanchum Auriculatum
Native to China, C. auriculatum (Royle ex Wight) is a plant species of which the roots, according to Chinese traditional medicine, enhance immunity and espouse longevity (50). Pregnane glycosides and baishouwubenzophenone have been found to exist in C. auriculatum (51). The similarity in the structure of pregnane and that of P57 (found in H. gordonii) shows that C. auriculatum could be an alternative to H. gordonii in developing anti-obesity dietary supplementation (51). Wilfoside K1N is the most widely known pregnane glycoside, which bears great structural resemblance to P57 (51). An animal trial, involving rats, has demonstrated that Wilfoside K1N can produce a considerable appetite-inhibiting effect (51). The efficacy and safety of pregnane glycosides need to be further investigated, especially because, unlike H. gordonii, which may soon become an endangered species, C. auriculatum is an abundant plant source (50, 52).”
Source: www(dot)ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov/pmc/articles/PMC4386228/
*Note: Scroll down to # 3.1.6. All cited sources here are linked to the original article from where the info was obtained so you should verify this yourself. I did.

III.
Title: Appetite suppressing pregnane glycosides from the roots of Cynanchum auriculatum


Abstract
In the search for plant alternatives to Hoodia gordonii containing P57, a pregnane glycoside with potential appetite suppressant effect, the roots of Cynanchum auriculatum were investigated. As a result, 15 pregnane glycosides including nine never previously reported were isolated. Their structures were elucidated on the basis of extensive spectroscopic analyses and chemical methods. Appetite suppressant effect and body weight loss were observed when tested with the most abundant pregnane glycoside, wilfoside K1N, in an in vivo test with rats.
Source: Phytochemistry. 2013 Sep;93:144-53. doi: 10.1016/j.phytochem.2013.03.010. Epub 2013 Apr 18.


IV.
Title: The antidepressant effect of Cynanchum auriculatum in mice
Pharm Biol
Pharm Biol 2012 Sep 24;50(9):1067-72. Epub 2012 Jul 24.

“Abstract
Context: Antidepressant effects of various plants are generally attributed to their anti-inflammation and antioxidant activities. Cynanchum auriculatum Royle ex Wight (Asclepiadaceae) is a traditional medicinal plant in China and India used for immunological regulation, anti-inflammation, and antioxidant purposes. However knowledge about its antidepressant activity has been poorly investigated.

Objective:To investigate the antidepressant activities of the total glycosides of C. auriculatum (TGC) and its CHCl3/MeOH (10:1) fractions (TGC-D and TGC-E) in mice.

Materials and methods: TGC, TGC-D and TGC-E (20, 40 and 80 mg/kg) were intragastrically administered to mice twice a day for 5 days. The tail suspension test, forced swimming test, and locomotor activity test in mice were used to evaluate the effect of C. auriculatum. The inhibition of [3H]-serotonin reuptake in rat brain synaptosomes was detected to investigate their mechanism.

Results:TGC, TGC-D and TGC-E (80 mg/kg) decreased the immobility time by 61.7, 64.5, and 61.9% in tail suspension test. TGC (80 mg/kg), TGC-D (80 mg/kg) and TGC-E (20 mg/kg) decreased the immobility time by 32.6, 47.3, and 48.7% in forced swimming test. TGC (80 mg/kg) and TGC-E (20 and 40 mg/kg) decreased the crossing distances by 28.8, 29.5, and 36.2% in locomotor activity test. TGC, TGC-D and TGC-E (10 mg/L) inhibited serotonin reuptake by 7.4, 4.5, and 71.1% in rat brain synaptosomes, and IC50 value of TGC-E was 5.2 mg/L.

Discussion and Conclusion: TGC, TGC-D and TGC-E have potential antidepressant activities. The antidepressive effect of TGC-E maybe attributed partly by the inhibiting effect on serotonin reuptake.”

Source: www(dot)pubfacts(dot)com/detail/22827543/The-antidepressant-effect-of-Cynanchum-auriculatum-in-mice

*Drops the mic and walks away

 

[The_Old_Guy]

FDA Poisonous Plant Database

AUTHOR(S): Han, J.; Luan, D. H.
TITLE: Sow abortion caused by feeding Cynanchum auriculatum.
YEAR: 1984 CITATION: Anim Husb Vet Med Xumu yu Shouyi, 16(6), 266 [Chinese]
FDA #: NA
ABSTRACT: Cynanchum auriculatum Royle has long been used as a herbal medicine in China. However, it can cause sows to abort even in those fed the residues after processing. About 2 oz of cooked C. auriculatum is enough to cause abortion. In 28 cases (pregnant for 63-105 days), 26 sows aborted several days after eating C. auriculatum and 2 litters were stillborn. The first oestrus after abortion was closely associated with the amount of C. auriculatum consumed.

But anyway, say I give you your 1 criminal count - was it an extract in OEP, or was it just crushed root? Cuz the label said extract. Were the COA's for certain ingredients fabricated? Was *Not* Green Coffee shipped as "Green Coffee 1, 2, 3" ?

How many more *alleged* crimes that the USG thinks it can prove, do we have left? 7?

 

[El Machete]

I didn't know jack about USPLabs' past indiscretions - no offense, but they ain't exactly like the big boys in the supplement game - the "Media" had nothing to do with my opinion. I just read the 11 count indictment and did my own research on the parts that interested me, ie. the ingredients. I don't GAS about Aegeline - never heard of it - and every time I do, I shake my head at it's use as a Red Herring/Shill defense. *I* found out on my own (with the help of Sergy Brinn) that Cynanchum Auriculatum causes 100% abortions in pregnant pigs when they are fed even small amounts of it, and is listed in the Dept of Agriculture's Poison Plant Database. Maybe I should give some to my pregnant mother? The entire country of South Korea also wanted every bit of that root out of their country too, and it had nothing to do with OEP.

A root by the way, that your honorable and above board favorite company lied about on the label - it was all just crushed root and not an extract - but hey, since they knew they were lying, they figured there wasn't enough of anything that would really do anything for fat loss (or damage), in there. Integrity baby.

Go ahead and tell me about the defenses for the other 10 counts of the indictment - I'm all ears. Maybe post up, for the eleventeenth time, the .pdf paid for by Covington & Burling about how it was all 'Aleve'.

And, serious question here, is Hawaii the only place in the country where injury was reported? Not even one more, anywhere else? Because I recall that there were some CONUS too.

And BTW, I think I always say 'Alleged' and we'll see what happens in court. I know the USG blows stuff up bigger than life... but doze emails doh...

But I suggest creating new "Innocence" threads every couple months so we can all talk about the 11 count indictment again and again. It's not like everyone said their peace in the first thread that got locked after it ran its course and didn't bring it up again... UNTIL THIS ONE WAS POSTED.

Whatever bro, I'm over it. You obviously have your mind made up and nothing, not even scientific facts, will change your mind. And that Korea incident did not involve this ingredient. It involved another 2 ingredients that they (the Korean market) were putting into their products and saying it was this ingredient. When tested they found that the products contained either a very small percentage of it or none at all. Most of them contained the other 2 which are toxic and normal levels. They even published a list for the products that DID contain this ingredient and a list of the products that said they contained this ingredient but really didn't. You obviously didn't read the entire study (again).

And yes, I read that there were some in the mainland states that made accusations, too but if you googled OEP around that time you were hit with tons of ads from lawyers "DID YOU TAKE OEP? Join our lawsuit and get money" type ads. Sounds real legit huh? A product taken all over the world, a top selling product no less, and they called it what it was- "a CLUSTER of liver issues in Hawaii". Makes no sense at all. I've been taking Usp Labs products for years and they are my favorite, hence why I am taking my time to defend them. Before Jack3d came around, every pw was LOADED with fillers, dyes, etc. and after it hit the market every tom, dick and harry came out with a "concentrated" pw that almost matched their ingredient panel. I believe they are being singled out to give gov't/congress a reason to regulate the supplement industry and I believe that pharmaceutical companies are behind it, lobbyists spend MILLIONS and the supplement market is a fast growing market. And no, I wouldn't give any type of PW/appetite supressant/stimulant to my pregnant mother, but I would to your fat sister.
-CLOSED-

 

[The_Old_Guy]

...Was it an extract in OEP, or was it just crushed root? Cuz the label said extract. Were the COA's for certain ingredients fabricated? Was *Not* Green Coffee shipped as "Green Coffee 1, 2, 3" ?

How many more *alleged* crimes that the USG thinks it can prove, do we have left? 7?

But, my questions???

As far as Korea, it is my understanding that Baeksuho was being sold that contained Cynanchum Auriculatum Royal, and NOT C.A. Wilfordii, like the labels said. C.A. Royal is considered a toxic substance by Korean law. Is this not correct?

My sister was very hurt by your comment. (J/K, I don't have a sister )

Edit: And it's not personal sir, it's a passionate topic - and this *is* a discussion board. Everything in these threads is my opinion based on one government document and research - the facts will come out in court and we'll all have to be happy with what they are.

 

[El Machete]

But, my questions???

As far as Korea, it is my understanding that Baeksuho was being sold that contained Cynanchum Auriculatum Royal, and NOT C.A. Wilfordii, like the labels said. C.A. Royal is considered a toxic substance by Korean law. Is this not correct?

My sister was very hurt by your comment. (J/K, I don't have a sister )

Edit: And it's not personal sir, it's a passionate topic - and this *is* a discussion board. Everything in these threads is my opinion based on one government document and research - the facts will come out in court and we'll all have to be happy with what they are.

This thread was posted due to a new study, the NSAID overdose study is old news but still relevant. So whatever the allegations may be, my issue and point that I'm trying to make here is look at what all the physicians that blamed OEP did! It's in this NEW study posted in this NEW thread and not regurgitated news. THAT'S what this thread is about. And all the accusations about the liver cluster issues in Hawaii made by liver specialists at the Hawaiian hospital were all backed by all those agencies we "trust"; the FDA, the HCDC, etc. People characterized as previously "healthy" before taking OEP that really had more preexisting medical issues than a 60 year old diabetic crack whore. The idea I'm trying to get across is that the gov't uses scare tactics via media to help enforce the new regulations they want in order to have more control over what we can take or not take, as if we are children and because idiots can't be trusted to take the supps as directed on the label. It's a huge industry and big pharma and companies want in. Even Walmart just bought some big supp company for a huge amount of money (dont remember which one or for how much though). And speaking of fraudulent ingredients, Walmart, Target and GNC only received a seize and desist letter for selling supplements that did not even contain the ingredients that were on the label, most where just rice or wheat. Where's their indictment? And the companies that manufactured the products indictments? Point is, USP labs is being singled out, a witch hunt, and used as a means for the gov't to have more control over us and this money-making supp industry, and they're using media scare tactics to get citizens on board. And how many people does big pharma kill a year? I bet that number pails in comparison to anything in the nutritional supplement industry. They are the real criminals. And Monsanto?! They don't even have to state their ingredients on their label and they don't have to label any of their products as GMOs because the FDA and Congress are allowing them to do this. So, the same agencies that put out these indictments on USP Labs are the exact same agencies that approve drugs that kill us (the FDA has doctored data by retracting the negative study results so that it can approve and release the drug into the market knowing its harmful and deadly), or cause serious side effects and allow GMO foods to go unlabeled. To me, it's like a criminal calling another person a criminal. They have no credibility. Money talks and BS walks.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Believe me, I'm no fan of 'Nanny Big Gov', Big Pharma, or the Medical Community - I wanted Gary Johnson to win But that indictment, if proven on most of those counts, was well deserved IMO. With that, have a good one.

 

[De__eB]

This thread was posted due to a new study, the NSAID overdose study is old news but still relevant. So whatever the allegations may be, my issue and point that I'm trying to make here is look at what all the physicians that blamed OEP did! It's in this NEW study posted in this NEW thread and not regurgitated news. THAT'S what this thread is about. And all the accusations about the liver cluster issues in Hawaii made by liver specialists at the Hawaiian hospital were all backed by all those agencies we "trust"; the FDA, the HCDC, etc. People characterized as previously "healthy" before taking OEP that really had more preexisting medical issues than a 60 year old diabetic crack whore.

And there are dozens of cases not accounted for in this study.

The idea I'm trying to get across is that the gov't uses scare tactics via media to help enforce the new regulations they want in order to have more control over what we can take or not take, as if we are children and because idiots can't be trusted to take the supps as directed on the label.

What new regulations, be specific?

Last I checked geranium stems are not in the food supply before 1994, and therefore on the back of *existing* regulations, the ingredient is an NDI and would require an accepted premarket notification before sale.

And again, I'm not arguing that it's right or wrong to sell or use DMAA, but the fact is by the letter of the law it's illegal, and it is the FDAs *job* to enforce matters subject to their regulatory authority.

It's a huge industry and big pharma and companies want in. Even Walmart just bought some big supp company for a huge amount of money (dont remember which one or for how much though). And speaking of fraudulent ingredients, Walmart, Target and GNC only received a seize and desist letter for selling supplements that did not even contain the ingredients that were on the label, most where just rice or wheat. Where's their indictment? And the companies that manufactured the products indictments?

And when they were made aware of the issue, they stopped selling it.

Did they keep on selling the products and claiming that their rice flour was actually <whatever the ****>?

Also, where was the evidence of Wal Mart executives saying "it's okay, just forge the COA and call this rice flour something else"?

Point is, USP labs is being singled out, a witch hunt, and used as a means for the gov't to have more control over us and this money-making supp industry, and they're using media scare tactics to get citizens on board.

They're being singled out to set a precedent, play by the rules. The entire industry skirts the LAW with regularity. You can disagree with the law all you want, but you accept the risks of violating it.

And how many people does big pharma kill a year? I bet that number pails in comparison to anything in the nutritional supplement industry.

That's irrelevant, the law still says what it says about dietary supplements, and we are all obligated to follow it for face the consequences

They are the real criminals. And Monsanto?! They don't even have to state their ingredients on their label and they don't have to label any of their products as GMOs because the FDA and Congress are allowing them to do this.

Oh now I see, you're one of the delusional clowns that thinks GMOs are bad and big pharma is out to kill everyone.

So, the same agencies that put out these indictments on USP Labs are the exact same agencies that approve drugs that kill us (the FDA has doctored data by retracting the negative study results so that it can approve and release the drug into the market knowing its harmful and deadly), or cause serious side effects and allow GMO foods to go unlabeled. To me, it's like a criminal calling another person a criminal. They have no credibility. Money talks and BS walks.

Take off the tin foil hat, seriously.

I don't see how USPlabs can in any way argue that their DMAA was actually extracted from Geranium, per their labels. Extracted by what manufacturing process? from which massive quantities of geranium?

And no it's not just USPLabs doing that, I would imagine that a significant majority of the industry engages in the same practice for some ingredient or another.


I don't think USPLabs did anything that isn't daily business practice at a significant portion of the supplement industry, and a lot of companies do worse things. But in the end, no matter how many people are doing it, it's against the law and up to the government's discretion to prosecute it.

 

[El Machete]

This thread was posted due to a new study, the NSAID overdose study is old news but still relevant. So whatever the allegations may be, my issue and point that I'm trying to make here is look at what all the physicians that blamed OEP did! It's in this NEW study posted in this NEW thread and not regurgitated news. THAT'S what this thread is about. And all the accusations about the liver cluster issues in Hawaii made by liver specialists at the Hawaiian hospital were all backed by all those agencies we "trust"; the FDA, the HCDC, etc. People characterized as previously "healthy" before taking OEP that really had more preexisting medical issues than a 60 year old diabetic crack whore.

And there are dozens of cases not accounted for in this study.

Yes, I know, but after reading about the biased and uneducated conclusions and data found in the case studies of the Hawaiian liver specialists in this recent clinical study, would you trust their conclusions on the remaining cases you mention? Or better yet, if you had liver problems, would you go to these Hawaiian doctors?




The idea I'm trying to get across is that the gov't uses scare tactics via media to help enforce the new regulations they want in order to have more control over what we can take or not take, as if we are children and because idiots can't be trusted to take the supps as directed on the label.

What new regulations, be specific?

Example 1 (regarding the FDA and NDI's and their proposterous draft guidances): www(dot)anh-usa(dot)org/fda-new-sneak-attack-on-supplements/

Example 2 (gov't using scare tactics to prevent people from buying foreign drugs which are cheaper and which take $ from big pharma's overpriced drugs): www(dot)nytimes)dot)com/2014/03/25/opinion/scare-tactics-over-foreign-drugs.html?_r=0

Example 3 (gov't using scare tactics to be able to create legislation to invade our privacy): www(dot)eff(dot)org/deeplinks/2015/08/it-again-law-enforcement-officials-anti-encryption-new-york-times-op-ed


The examples go on and on and are used to show how govt agencies use scare tactics.




Last I checked geranium stems are not in the food supply before 1994, and therefore on the back of *existing* regulations, the ingredient is an NDI and would require an accepted premarket notification before sale.

And again, I'm not arguing that it's right or wrong to sell or use DMAA, but the fact is by the letter of the law it's illegal, and it is the FDAs *job* to enforce matters subject to their regulatory authority.

Refer back to Example #1 above



It's a huge industry and big pharma and companies want in. Even Walmart just bought some big supp company for a huge amount of money (dont remember which one or for how much though). And speaking of fraudulent ingredients, Walmart, Target and GNC only received a seize and desist letter for selling supplements that did not even contain the ingredients that were on the label, most where just rice or wheat. Where's their indictment? And the companies that manufactured the products indictments?

And when they were made aware of the issue, they stopped selling it.

Did they keep on selling the products and claiming that their rice flour was actually <whatever the ****>?

Also, where was the evidence of Wal Mart executives saying "it's okay, just forge the COA and call this rice flour something else"?


Evidence?!?! LMAO. How can we have evidence if they weren't even investigated??? All they got was a seize and desist letter. The products in question were tested and they contained a small fraction, if any at all, of what they had on the ingredients list. Plus, they contained ingredients that weren't even mentioned either. Wheat?! That's really cool to not include that, especially if you're allergic to it. Totally different. compared to the whole DMAA thing. And really, the synthetic compound is the equivalent of the natural one. That's why it's called a synthetic version. And after all the scare tactics they used about DMAA, it was actually found NOT to be the cause of all those military issues by a panel of their own physicians, from the DoD, they concluded DMAA had nothing to do with those issues, synthetic or not. I posted a link to their final report in a previous post here.



Point is, USP labs is being singled out, a witch hunt, and used as a means for the gov't to have more control over us and this money-making supp industry, and they're using media scare tactics to get citizens on board.

They're being singled out to set a precedent, play by the rules. The entire industry skirts the LAW with regularity. You can disagree with the law all you want, but you accept the risks of violating it.

Ok, so finally we agree on something, that they are being singled out. And I understand that a law is a law but shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? Or do you believe it's ok to make an example of someone by exaggerating, lying, creating false medical reports and using the media as a scare tactic to make a mountain out of a mole hill? If I broke a law, I would expect, at the very least, fair and ethical treatment so that true justice may be served.





And how many people does big pharma kill a year? I bet that number pails in comparison to anything in the nutritional supplement industry.

That's irrelevant, the law still says what it says about dietary supplements, and we are all obligated to follow it for face the consequences

It is NOT irrelevant when the laws don't apply to the pharmaceutical companies the way they do to the supplement companies. Why do they create these laws? For consumer safety. Why is consumer safety not a priority when it comes to big pharma? That's like creating a law and saying it only applies to black people. Justice should be justice, equally and for all.



They are the real criminals. And Monsanto?! They don't even have to state their ingredients on their label and they don't have to label any of their products as GMOs because the FDA and Congress are allowing them to do this.

Oh now I see, you're one of the delusional clowns that thinks GMOs are bad and big pharma is out to kill everyone.


Whoa, REALLY? You think GMOs are a good thing? You think Monsanto is a good company? And you think big pharma only has our well-being in mind and is an honest and ethical entity? Another sucker is born every minute... Go ahead and eat your frankenfish salmon, screw every honest farmer by contaminating their crops then suing them for it and keep taking that Vioxx cuz it was approved by the FDA, so it must be safe.



So, the same agencies that put out these indictments on USP Labs are the exact same agencies that approve drugs that kill us (the FDA has doctored data by retracting the negative study results so that it can approve and release the drug into the market knowing its harmful and deadly), or cause serious side effects and allow GMO foods to go unlabeled. To me, it's like a criminal calling another person a criminal. They have no credibility. Money talks and BS walks.

Take off the tin foil hat, seriously.

I need to keep it on or else the aliens will read my mind.




I don't see how USPlabs can in any way argue that their DMAA was actually extracted from Geranium, per their labels. Extracted by what manufacturing process? from which massive quantities of geranium?

Who the fug cares? Do you think that the millions of people that took it read the label, saw 'dimethylalamine 1,3' and said "sounds like a natural ingredient to me!" They bought it, took it, and guess what?, It worked! That's why it was the best thermo out there. I just saw a bottle of OEP with DMAA sell for $120! And Jack3d with DMAA is going for close to that too on eBay. USp labs didn't say it had that ingredient, whether natural or synthetic, then didn't put it in the product at all, like the plethora of other companies that did that and only got a seize and desist letter.




And no it's not just USPLabs doing that, I would imagine that a significant majority of the industry engages in the same practice for some ingredient or another.


I don't think USPLabs did anything that isn't daily business practice at a significant portion of the supplement industry, and a lot of companies do worse things. But in the end, no matter how many people are doing it, it's against the law and up to the government's discretion to prosecute it.

Yes, ...but to FAIRLY prosecute. Not in the manner they have been doing it, by using tactics that are far more sneaky, dishonest and unethical than the alleged behavior they are prosecuting.

 

[De__eB]

Yes, I know, but after reading about the biased and uneducated conclusions and data found in the case studies of the Hawaiian liver specialists in this recent clinical study, would you trust their conclusions on the remaining cases you mention? Or better yet, if you had liver problems, would you go to these Hawaiian doctors?

Why do you think they only picked 4 of the patients to take another look at, instead of analyzing all of the patients?

Could it be that having been retained in defense of USPLabs, Covington and Burling commissioned them to look for evidence to suggest that OEP was not the culprit?

I'm not saying it was or wasn't, I'm just saying that the truth probably lies somewhere in between that the prosecution and the defense would have you believe.

Example 1 (regarding the FDA and NDI's and their proposterous draft guidances): www(dot)anh-usa(dot)org/fda-new-sneak-attack-on-supplements/

Example 2 (gov't using scare tactics to prevent people from buying foreign drugs which are cheaper and which take $ from big pharma's overpriced drugs): www(dot)nytimes)dot)com/2014/03/25/opinion/scare-tactics-over-foreign-drugs.html?_r=0

Example 3 (gov't using scare tactics to be able to create legislation to invade our privacy): www(dot)eff(dot)org/deeplinks/2015/08/it-again-law-enforcement-officials-anti-encryption-new-york-times-op-ed


The examples go on and on and are used to show how govt agencies use scare tactics.

-The draft guidance is just that, a draft, it was published for industry comment, and the massive amount of industry backlash resulted in the guidance being tabled for years for further discussion.

-Look at it this way in regards to protectionist stances about foreign drugs. There are a lot of safe online pharmacies out there that you can order from. There are also a lot of UNSAFE pharmacies out there that you can order from. These international pharmacies are outside the reach of U.S. law enforcement. If you buy one drug and get something else that kills you, you have no civil discourse and the government has no judicial authority to do a damn thing about it.

-What does anti-encryption law have to do with dietary supplements?

Refer back to Example #1 above

It's by the book illegal before that draft guidance ever existed.

Evidence?!?! LMAO. How can we have evidence if they weren't even investigated??? All they got was a seize and desist letter. The products in question were tested and they contained a small fraction, if any at all, of what they had on the ingredients list. Plus, they contained ingredients that weren't even mentioned either. Wheat?! That's really cool to not include that, especially if you're allergic to it. Totally different. compared to the whole DMAA thing. And really, the synthetic compound is the equivalent of the natural one. That's why it's called a synthetic version. And after all the scare tactics they used about DMAA, it was actually found NOT to be the cause of all those military issues by a panel of their own physicians, from the DoD, they concluded DMAA had nothing to do with those issues, synthetic or not. I posted a link to their final report in a previous post here.

You don't think the state AG investigated them to look for evidence of malice? You really don't think a guy trying to make his name in politics off the back of a major victory did his due diligence?

It doesn't matter if DMAA was or wasn't the cause of the issues.

It doesn't matter if synthetic DMAA is the same as natural DMAA.

The label said extracted DMAA, the products contained synthetic DMAA. When confronted with this, USPLabs (And really every other company in the industry) repeatedly said they were using extracted DMAA. How do you not see the difference between this and what happened with the generic box store supplements?

Ok, so finally we agree on something, that they are being singled out. And I understand that a law is a law but shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? Or do you believe it's ok to make an example of someone by exaggerating, lying, creating false medical reports and using the media as a scare tactic to make a mountain out of a mole hill? If I broke a law, I would expect, at the very least, fair and ethical treatment so that true justice may be served.

USPLabs (allegedly) led the FDA on a goose chase for years on multiple fronts in regards to multiple different issues.

If you get pulled over for speeding and are polite, you're probably getting off with a warning, and the cop is pretty unlikely to decide he thinks you're doing something shady and search your car for weed.

If you get pulled over for speeding and act like an ******* and are dodgy, you're probably getting a ticket, and you're probably getting arrested over your weed.

Is it "fair?" maybe, maybe not, but if you decline to cooperate with the authorities, they're going to come back to get you, hard.

It is NOT irrelevant when the laws don't apply to the pharmaceutical companies the way they do to the supplement companies. Why do they create these laws? For consumer safety. Why is consumer safety not a priority when it comes to big pharma? That's like creating a law and saying it only applies to black people. Justice should be justice, equally and for all.

Dietary Supplements are not Drugs.

The two fall under entirely different regulations.

The people who enforce drug regulations are an entirely different group of people than the ones who enforce supplement regulations.

It's not like there's some pharma crony sitting at his desk suppressing evidence of drug company misdeeds while searching anabolicminds for supplement companies to go after.

Whoa, REALLY? You think GMOs are a good thing? You think Monsanto is a good company? And you think big pharma only has our well-being in mind and is an honest and ethical entity? Another sucker is born every minute... Go ahead and eat your frankenfish salmon, screw every honest farmer by contaminating their crops then suing them for it and keep taking that Vioxx cuz it was approved by the FDA, so it must be safe.

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Try and even explain any mechanism by which GMOs are categorically unsafe? You can't, I guarantee it.

I need to keep it on or else the aliens will read my mind.

I hope the aliens find my mind worth reading

 

[Duywayne]

Who the fug cares? Do you think that the millions of people that took it read the label, saw 'dimethylalamine 1,3' and said "sounds like a natural ingredient to me!" They bought it, took it, and guess what?, It worked! That's why it was the best thermo out there. I just saw a bottle of OEP with DMAA sell for $120! And Jack3d with DMAA is going for close to that too on eBay. USp labs didn't say it had that ingredient, whether natural or synthetic, then didn't put it in the product at all, like the plethora of other companies that did that and only got a seize and desist letter.
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For what its worth, I went through my stash of OEP and all of the labels just say "1,3-Dimethylamylamine HCl." There is no wording of "Geranium" anywhere on the label.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

This thread was posted due to a new study...

I feel like Al Pacino...

New study? Are you talking about the one in the link provided by USPLabsRep in the very first post? The one in 'Annals of Hepatology', dated January - February, Vol 15 No. 1 2016?

The Official Journal of the Mexican Association of Hepatology, the Latin-American Association for Study of the Liver and the Canadian Association for the Study of the Liver.

What, not good enough for any American Pubs? So we have a paid German, "publishing" in a Can/Mex journal.

Read the Conflict of Interest Disclosure - it's the same one that appears any time good old Rolf is involved:

CONFLICT
OF INTEREST DISCLOSURE

Rolf Teschke received... for consultation by Covington
& Burling LLP Washington DC. ...

I'm not convinced this is *new* at all, it just looks like a rehash, just in a 2016 "re-print"... Not that it matters, even if it's brand new, Rolf was still on the dole.

 

[De__eB]

I feel like Al Pacino...

New study? Are you talking about the one in the link provided by USPLabsRep in the very first post? The one in 'Annals of Hepatology', dated January - February, Vol 15 No. 1 2016?



What, not good enough for any American Pubs? So we have a paid German, "publishing" in a Can/Mex journal.

Read the Conflict of Interest Disclosure - it's the same one that appears any time good old Rolf is involved:



I'm not convinced this is *new* at all, it just looks like a rehash, just in a 2016 "re-print"... Not that it matters, even if it's brand new, Rolf was still on the dole.

I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with the study, a non insignificant portion of the hepatitis cases probably have other contributing causes, and the defense in lawsuits would be crazy not to point that out.

 

[Admin]

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[El Machete]

For what its worth, I went through my stash of OEP and all of the labels just say "1,3-Dimethylamylamine HCl." There is no wording of "Geranium" anywhere on the label.

Holy ****e, you're right. I've got 2 original Jack3d and 1 (unopened) original OEP and both of them have it written just like that. Good catch. Wish the FDA didn't ban it. It's like the ephedra thing all over again. People can't be trusted to take **** as indicated on the label so they fug it up for everyone else and then mommy and daddy gov't steps in to control what we can or cannot take. Truly sucks big sweaty hairy donkey balls

 

[El Machete]

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My sentiments exactly.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with the study, a non insignificant portion of the hepatitis cases probably have other contributing causes, and the defense in lawsuits would be crazy not to point that out.

Sure, of course. I think I'm on record in one of the other threads saying everything in it may be 100% - but I give less credence to Gun Control Studies commissioned by Sarah Brady as well. In any case, even if no product harmed anyone, there's still 10 other allegations to go. The other 10 seem to be brushed off, and I see no defenses ever offered for those. "Science" has nothing to do with using crushed roots instead of the label "Extract", or putting whatever in a bag, and labeling it Green Coffee. Or faking COAs.

--Insert Cool Patrick Stewart GIF Here--

 

[USPlabsRep]

I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with the study, a non insignificant portion of the hepatitis cases probably have other contributing causes, and the defense in lawsuits would be crazy not to point that out.

I do think it makes sense to read the section "Analysis of Regulatory Assessment" starting at the end of page 92 and ending at the beginning of Page 94.

If the process of identifying a case patient in General is faulty, there is a bigger systemic issue at hand.

 

[De__eB]

I do think it makes sense to read the section "Analysis of Regulatory Assessment" starting at the end of page 92 and ending at the beginning of Page 94.

If the process of identifying a case patient in General is faulty, there is a bigger systemic issue at hand.

Well, I think the systems in place to identify outbreaks are generally assumed to have a decent false positive rate no?

Point being, it's better to get some false positives than to be late to the game in catching something right?

Ultimately, the CDCs agenda isn't to ascribe blame to you or deem you guilty, it's to identify and respond to disease trends, and to find and deal with likely causes.

Now, it's certainly dishonest scapegoating for the media or the FDA to then report on the total # of cases rather than a winnowed down number that they believe are actually attributable to OEP, especially given that many of the cases they already knew hadn't consumed OEP at all.

--

At the end of the day, a non insignificant portion number of the cases did occur in people that were taking OEP, and that would be a rather odd coincidence.

Whether those people had other contributory underlying issues or pathologies in play is of course up for discussion, but I think it will be a tough sell to say that OEP in no way contributed to a single persons hepatitis.

--

In the end, I'll just repeat that a lot of the things USPLabs got indicted for are standard industry practice, and while they might be being targeted for the FDA by nature of a grudge over having been one of the biggest players in DMAA and one of the few companies to initially resist the FDAs attempts to remove DMAA from the market, the alleged behaviors are still violations of the law, and this really should be a wake up call to everyone in the industry as to what the very real consequences can be if you bark up the wrong tree.