Some insight on TRT and PH

ba1900

New member
Hi, there. I did a search and found some info but not quite all the info I wanted. So now to my story. I'm 39, Male and was tested to find my T levels were low in March of 2012. I started Androgel 1.62 probably in September-October of 2012. Started with one pump, then two, and now I am on three. My numbers are as follows:

[TD="class: name, bgcolor: #CEAE86"]Component[/TD]
[TD="class: name, bgcolor: #CEAE86"]Total Testosterone[/TD]

[TD="class: refrange, bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]Standard Range[/TD]
[TD="class: refrange, bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]195-1138 ng/dl[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]3/9/2012[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]131[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]3/19/2012[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]148[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]4/2/2012[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]189[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]11/7/2012[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]176[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]2/4/2013[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6EDFC"]343[/TD]

I get my next test in September. I was thinking about maybe trying a cycle of PH. I have never done anything like that and am still researching, but I would like to know what is the consensus on PH with TRT. Pro's / Con's, advice. Thanks in advance for info.
 
My first advice is instead of using testosterone as a TRT, try clomid.

Secondly, I see no issue in using PH with a TRT. No different than using an AAS while on TRT
 
Thanks for the reply. As far as what I have been using, just following doctors orders on that. I will look into clomid, thanks for the tip.
 
Only reason I state to use clomid as TRT is because test shuts you down worse and makes you dependent. Clomid increases your natural test production, no shutdown.
 
Thanks for the further explanation there. I had just looked it up and saw that it was used to spur ovulation.
 
I guess a further question would be how long in general would it take for your body to stop producing testosterone on its own if using a product like Androgel.
 
I think androgel shuts you down within a week, but by 6 weeks certainly you would be shut down. I don't like how they give testosterone as a TRT when studies on clomid are popping up like the above one. I can confirm in a blood test these results too. Went from a test level of 300 to around 780 on 25mg a day. And I will not be shut down like those using test..
 
ba1900 said:
Is it possible to come back from being shut down? Been on this crap for almost a year now :(
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I bet you running clomid for an extended period of time will bring you back.

If nothing else, I was told HCG ran at 1000 iu every other day for 10 days will restart you. Then I'd cruise on clomid from that point on.
 
You could try injections instead of transdermals. Your testosterone is low because you are not absorbing the medication. Injections will solve that problem.

Don't start cycling until you have your TRT regimen locked down.
 
I had the injection first and had a reaction at the injection site. That was why I went to the gels.
 
Just had one injection done at my doctors office. The site swelled up to about 6 inches round and was hard for about a week or so. He would not do the injections after that.
 
That is unfortunate. I do not know what would cause that reaction (perhaps an allergy), but that is definitely atypical.

You could try pellets. I know next to nothing about them (I do self-administered injections), but I believe the bioavailability of the pellets is better than the transdermals, and absorption looks like your issue.
 
The reason why you are at 300 level is because you are only taking 3 pumps per day.....on 4 pumps of 1% (about equivalent to 3 of 1.62 give or take) I was at the same exact # as you. I had to bump up to 8 pumps of 1% (equivalent to 5 pumps of 1.62% approximately) in order to get to 687. Each pump seems to be equal to about 80 points towards my test level personally....1.62% might be more like 100+ points of course. Just a general random # from what I've experienced personally, and from what I've gathered from others numbers I've seen.

In regards to the clomid, you will need to be on clomid "for life" same as you would be dependent on testosterone for life....same difference. Its not like clomid will magically restore your endogenous test levels then you never have to take it again....and it has way worse sides than testosterone does, for me at least (at 25-50mg doses). It's an easier and a wiser choice to just stay on the androgel, and graduate to injections in the future.
 
What side effects? I experienced none. It is known as having very very mild side effects.

And I'd rather be on clomid for life and preserve sperm count/internal harmony than become dependent on an outside hormone that shuts you down and throws you out of whack. And according to my doctor (and I believe if you google it you can find out this too), taking clomid for an extended period of time rises natural test levels once you stop taking it.
 
Oh and yeah.....PH/DS and OTC supps/anabolics work great with TRT....hell, its testosterone....the king of all bases for a cycle :D. I've used everything from deca to epi to mecha to SD etc etc along with TRT. you really can't go wrong with test as your base when adding in other anabolics...even OTC stuff like ABE or GDA's or cortisol control work better with test.
 
Red Fox said:
What side effects? I experienced none. It is known as having very very mild side effects.

And I'd rather be on clomid for life and preserve sperm count/internal harmony than become dependent on an outside hormone that shuts you down and throws you out of whack. And according to my doctor (and I believe if you google it you can find out this too), taking clomid for an extended period of time rises natural test levels once you stop taking it.
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You will be on it for life, there is no debating that part. But hey, if you get no side effects from it? (well that you know of ;)) then by all means stick with it. provided it elevates your test levels to where it is satisfactory for you, but damn man.....in PCT? that stuff makes me a whiny, bitchy, moody, anxious, suicidal bitch :D this is at 25-50mg daily doses though...not sure if you are one of the people who take EOD or E3D or small daily doses.....
 
and quite the opposite of what you stated....clomid is WELL KNOWN for MULTIPLE side effects :D.....but anyways......
 
Thanks for the info AnabolicHolic. I am totally new to all this so any info is greatly appreciated. As far as the amounts, I was at 2 pumps to get up to the 300 level. My doc moved me to 3 pumps after the test came in at 300+. I get my next test done the first week in September to see where I am now.
 
First, decide if you want to be on TRT or not. This is a life decision, not something you start and stop.

Next get all of the details of your TRT under control. This includes finding the correct dose and working with your doc on other related issues such as elevated estradiol.

Finally, after a few blood work reviews, you could cycle. But you need to do end any cycle at least eight weeks before your next round of blood work. This can get tricky. If your doc sees elevated liver enzymes or out of whack lipids you could jeopardize your TRT regiment.
 
Suicide? Whiny? Bitchy? These are your clomid sides? Sounds like high aromatization to estrogen... take an ai
 
ba1900 said:
Thanks for the info AnabolicHolic. I am totally new to all this so any info is greatly appreciated. As far as the amounts, I was at 2 pumps to get up to the 300 level. My doc moved me to 3 pumps after the test came in at 300+. I get my next test done the first week in September to see where I am now.
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You should check out the anti-aging forum on this site, there is way more info there about this topic. It's very slow over there, but that is where most of the people in the know on TRT post. But yes, I was disappointed in my 350 test level at 4 pumps 1% (equivalent to ~3 pumps of 1.62%)...but it seems like you are following the 80/100+ guesstimate I "created" for the pump to point increase ratio. You would figure that at 5 pumps you should be in the 600's no doubt...but my GP moved me up slowly as well....2 pumps to 4 pumps....then I said the hell with 6 pumps, lets jump to 8 pumps and he agreed. They had me on one pump (actually 2 packets, but essentially one pump) for the first month lol. To assess tolerance, needless to say I was not happy to be shut down and on 1 pump of 1% androgel....but I just rolled with it.
 
Red Fox said:
Suicide? Whiny? Bitchy? These are your clomid sides? Sounds like high aromatization to estrogen... take an ai
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I assume you've never done a clomid PCT? In that case you would not understand. Trust me, its the clomid that creates these sides.....and its not just me, its 8-9 out of 10 guys who get these sides. I'm experienced enough to know that these issues arise only during that one month of PCT...doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out its the clomid. maybe you are immune to it, God bless you if you are......
 
Hellz if I know. I took clomid and nolva. Made me feel maybe a little happier. I have problems with apathy, I don't feel fear or excitement or any emotion outside of anger really, that's why I may not react much to those sides. I hope this doesn't come off as me trying to sound cool, I'd give anything to feel emotion, even be a whiny bitch would be nice as opposed to a statue
 
Also, remember that guys going on TRT are for the most part looking to treat symptoms, not necessarily looking to see a specific number on their blood work. While clomid will raise testosterone, it may not help with libido, ed, energy level, etc.
 
The first test after I started the Androgel had my numbers go backwards :( Talk about disheartening... So I know what you are saying. But he has been having me up it slowly. My biggest issue with the Androgel is cost. My insurance covers it after I buy my first bottle for the year, but with the changes to healthcare coming I do not know where I am going to be at in a few months so having some alternatives would be advantageous.
 
Red Fox said:
Hellz if I know. I took clomid and nolva. Made me feel maybe a little happier. I have problems with apathy, I don't feel fear or excitement or any emotion outside of anger really, that's why I may not react much to those sides. I hope this doesn't come off as me trying to sound cool, I'd give anything to feel emotion, even be a whiny bitch would be nice as opposed to a statue
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ok then you are the type who does not get these type of sides....this is a good thing, and the reason why you are able to take clomid therapy and not suffer any of its side effects. There are guys who don't have any issues while on clomid, but they are the minority. I'm prone to anxiety, but then again I'm very mentally strong.....but that stuff makes me a bitch every time man....and I know from experience that its the clomid, because this only happens to me when I'm on the stuff. I'm glad i don't need PCT anymore actually.....no more clomid!
 
Well wouldn't using clomid to increase your testosterone to the desired level give you the effects that come with that level of test?
 
jerrysiii said:
Also, remember that guys going on TRT are for the most part looking to treat symptoms, not necessarily looking to see a specific number on their blood work. While clomid will raise testosterone, it may not help with libido, ed, energy level, etc.
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I'm bad like that, I'm one of those who strive for the perfect # (800, 900, 1000...whatever it is) :D. I know its the wrong way to go about it, better to go by feel (libido, energy, mood etc.), and to have appropriate levels of all hormones (estrogen, test, prolaction etc.).....but I seem to be a #'s guy....
 
ba1900 said:
The first test after I started the Androgel had my numbers go backwards :( Talk about disheartening... So I know what you are saying. But he has been having me up it slowly. My biggest issue with the Androgel is cost. My insurance covers it after I buy my first bottle for the year, but with the changes to healthcare coming I do not know where I am going to be at in a few months so having some alternatives would be advantageous.
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Yeah this stuff is EXPENSIVE....I shudder when I look at the actual cost for 8 pumps per day for a month....YIKES!!! but so far so good, my insurance has been covering it for well over a year, and no donut hole issues or anything like that :D.....$6 a month so far, we shall see where Obama takes us though. I know you are sensitive to injections, but that would be the cheapest route to go if the androgel turns out to be cost prohibitive for you in the future. Stuff is a fraction of the cost of the gel. Or try clomid, its worth a shot to see if it works for you AND if you are able to handle any sides that may pop up....only one way to find out, try it.....
 
AnabolicHolic said:
Yeah this stuff is EXPENSIVE....I shudder when I look at the actual cost for 8 pumps per day for a month....YIKES!!! but so far so good, my insurance has been covering it for well over a year, and no donut hole issues or anything like that :D.....$6 a month so far, we shall see where Obama takes us though. I know you are sensitive to injections, but that would be the cheapest route to go if the androgel turns out to be cost prohibitive for you in the future. Stuff is a fraction of the cost of the gel. Or try clomid, its worth a shot to see if it works for you AND if you are able to handle any sides that may pop up....only one way to find out, try it.....
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F Obama garbage president. I am 26, med school student
 
Red Fox said:
F Obama garbage president. I am 26, med school student
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oh shyt, yeah you are young :D better to get on clomid at your age maybe.....I assumed you were around late 30's and beyond since you were talking about long term clomid therapy and TRT.
 
I have brought up the injections everytime I see him... He is erring on the gel side at the moment... But if things do change I do believe I will be more insistent.
 
ba1900 said:
I have brought up the injections everytime I see him... He is erring on the gel side at the moment... But if things do change I do believe I will be more insistent.
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Same here.....this guy is insistent on the gel's....and the alternative is once or twice per month 100mg test cyp injections....I will pass on that rollercoaster ride. I posted elsewhere in this forum yesterday on how the higher dosing of the gels provides MORE mg of testosterone than one or even two 100mg per month injections. But these doc's think the injection protocol is somehow more heavy duty than the gels :D can't let just anybody get on them injections! Cost will be a great reason for switching to injections in the future though...if the doc does not sympathize with that situation maybe he shouldn't be a doctor, you do need to be empathetic in that profession and work with your patient and their needs.
 
He has been pretty good with me, so I can not complain too much. Its more frustrating dealing with this issue than anything.
 
That was my next ? for you.

Lowered shbg increases free test. Does clomid effect that as well? (Limited research ability ATM)
 
I found this on a diff forum

you can not accurate measure e2 or shbg on clomid because it can act as an estrogen itself giving false readings .
 
David Dunn said:
At 48 yo for life is not as daunting as at 26 yo. :D

Let us also not forget that free test is the critical factor and not just total test.
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I just went over this with an endo I visited (who I will not be seeing again....) and he requested free test, that I have been asking for the past 2 labs mind you at the GP. So that is ONE thing I agreed with him on. OH and the PSA test, I never had one at the GP. OH and the estradiol test in place of total estrogen. Essentially I like what he chose for labs, but everything else he had to say was bullshyt :D Is there a test for SHBG levels? I don't see it on the form....but I know they can write in requests not listed.
 
Red Fox said:
Also apparently clomid raises SHBG by 30%
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So according to that it may be raising test but it is binding it more rendering it useless (not free). Additionally I believe increased shbg will also elevate e2 or increase aromatization.

Some food for thought...
 
David Dunn said:
So according to that it may be raising test but it is binding it more rendering it useless. Additionally I believe increased shbg will also elevate e2.

Some food for thought...
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Very good points. I will do research into this. I'm leaning towards injecting 1000iu of HCG every other day for 10 days to restart test productions.
 
One other question, If my T-Levels are already low and my production has been cut off by taking the Androgel... Will a PCT help bring it back up? Would a PCT help without running PH?
 
A PCT type protocol for an extended period of time would be your only option. Basically taking Clomid ED, along with test boosters and all that good stuff if you want to, and then getting labs every month or two to check your progress. good luck getting one of these endo's to prescribe you clomid for this purpose though, they will look at you like you have 3 heads and tell you its a women's fertility drug and they will lose their license if they prescribed it for something its not indicated for. Sad but true, you may have to go RC or overseas pharm and that is totally hit or miss. So yes, the PCT protocol is your best bet, but you would be taking it long term as opposed to taking it for one month only, and its only gonna bring you back to whatever test level you were at previous to getting on the androgel once you cease taking the clomid...most likely.
 
AnabolicHolic said:
A PCT type protocol for an extended period of time would be your only option. Basically taking Clomid ED, along with test boosters and all that good stuff if you want to, and then getting labs every month or two to check your progress. good luck getting one of these endo's to prescribe you clomid for this purpose though, they will look at you like you have 3 heads and tell you its a women's fertility drug and they will lose their license if they prescribed it for something its not indicated for. Sad but true, you may have to go RC or overseas pharm and that is totally hit or miss. So yes, the PCT protocol is your best bet, but you would be taking it long term as opposed to taking it for one month only, and its only gonna bring you back to whatever test level you were at previous to getting on the androgel once you cease taking the clomid...most likely.
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He knows what he is saying. I got legit clomid though...
 
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