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Save your money on pump products, Cialis is the way to go

The Express 42

The Express 42

Well-known member
I saw someone suggest using 5mg Cialis about 30 mins pre workout and Ive been using it on every day except leg day and the pump is unbelievable and if you can get it from a legit source 5 mg 5-6 times a week is much more cost effective. I don't think Ill ever go a different route as far as a pump product. Figured I would share because its been working wonders for me.
 
Wouldn't the body become used to it, thus having to up the dose constantly over time? I'd also be afraid you would no longer get an erection on your own? (I know nothing about ed meds!)
 
As far as I know the once daily dose is 5mg for older men and then never develop a tolerance
 
Brick Tannen said:
Wouldn't the body become used to it, thus having to up the dose constantly over time? I'd also be afraid you would no longer get an erection on your own? (I know nothing about ed meds!)
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This is what I've heard too.

Also some interesting/concerning things:

In October 2007, the FDA announced that the labeling for all PDE5 inhibitors, including tadalafil, requires a more prominent warning of the potential risk of sudden hearing loss as the result of postmarketing reports of deafness associated with use of PDE5 inhibitors.
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On October 6, 2011, the U.S. FDA approved tadalafil to treat the signs and symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). BPH is a condition in males in which the prostate gland becomes enlarged, obstructing the free flow of urine. Symptoms may include sudden urges to urinate (urgency), difficulty in starting urination (hesitancy), a weak urine stream, and more frequent urination - especially at night. The FDA has also approved tadalafil for treatment of both BPH and erectile dysfunction (ED) where the two conditions co-exist.
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From Wikipedia

Also, it seems like Viagra would be the better alternative if you're just trying to get a temporary pump in the gym.

Cialis versus Viagra: Cialis works within 15-30 minutes and lasts 36 hours while Viagra works within 30-60 minutes and lasts about 4 hours.
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Unless the pump lasts the full 36 hours... ?

Will Brink has some good things to say about Viagra/Cialis and it's potential to build muscle tho: Invalid Link Removed

So, I read the entire clinical pharmacology on Cialis and it doesn't say anything about physical dependency on it to get an erection after using it or Viagra, which is also a PDE5 inhibitor. However, I found several studies that indicated tachyphylaxis (rapidly diminishing response to successive doses of a drug, rendering it less effective.) might occur in PDE5 inhibitors. Invalid Link Removed

Curr Vasc Pharmacol. 2006 Apr;4(2):89-93.
The management of phosphodiesterase-5 (PDE5) inhibitor failure.
Lau DH1, Kommu S, Mumtaz FH, Morgan RJ, Thompson CS, Mikhailidis DP.
Author information
Abstract
The oral phosphodiesterase type 5 (PDE5) inhibitors have made a valuable contribution to the treatment of erectile dysfunction (ED). PDE5 inhibitors enhance cavernosal smooth muscle relaxation, vasodilatation and penile erection. However, PDE5 inhibitors are not always effective. Decreased efficacy, cost, incorrect administration, lack of sexual stimulation, vascular risk factors associated with ED and vascular or neurogenic diseases are causes of PDE5 inhibitor failure. Tachyphylaxis may also occur. This is defined as reduced tissue responsiveness to a drug in the presence of a constant concentration of this drug. Treatment failure may cause considerable distress. If dose titration, more attempts and continuous dosing of PDE5 inhibitors (taken on a daily basis) fail to resolve the initial PDE5 inhibitor failure, clinicians need to consider alternative treatments. These include sublingual apomorphine, intracavernosal/intraurethral pharmacotherapy, vacuum devices, the insertion of a prosthesis and penile vascular surgery. Combination therapy like prostaglandin E(1) (PGE(1)) with doxazosin (dox; an alpha-1-blocker) or ketanserin (ketan; a 5-HT(2) antagonist) as well as other pro-erection agents, like Endothelin-1 antagonists, angiotensin II antagonists (valsartan/losartan), adrenomedullin, Rho kinase inhibitors and nitric oxide (NO) donors may be beneficial in the treatment of ED. However, these combination therapies need to be validated. Adding an androgen to a PDE5 inhibitor may help when circulatory testosterone levels are low. The early use of PDE5 inhibitors in patients with hypertension, hyperlipidaemia or diabetes with concomitant ED and treating these risk factors may improve corporeal blood flow and lead to long-term preservation of cavernosal function. Therefore, the efficacy of PDE5 inhibitors may be maintained. Targeting the risk factors of ED (similar to those for arteriosclerosis) in the early stages of the disease may prevent the development or decrease the severity of ED.
PMID: 16611151 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Source: Invalid Link Removed

J Urol. 2001 Sep;166(3):927-31.
Long-term efficacy of sildenafil and tachyphylaxis effect.
El-Galley R1, Rutland H, Talic R, Keane T, Clark H.
Author information
Abstract
PURPOSE:
We observed that patients who initially responded to sildenafil frequently became resistant to it with time. We evaluated the long-term efficacy of sildenafil.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
A telephone survey was conducted of patients during the first year of sildenafil usage, and another one was completed 2 years later of the same group.
RESULTS:
During the first survey, the etiology of impotence included post radical prostatectomy in 25, arterial insufficiency in 26, diabetes in 19, neurogenic impotence in 12, suspected venous leak in 9, proved venous leak in 7, Peyronie's disease in 6 and unspecified in 47 patients. The overall improvement rate, which was defined as the ability to initiate and maintain erections for successful intercourse, was 74%. The dose necessary to achieve this response was 100 mg. sildenafil in 15% of patients, 50 mg. in 83% and 25 mg. in 2%. During the second survey, information was collected on 82 patients and only 43 (52%) had continued treatment. Of the 69 patients who reported an initial good response 41 (59%) were still using sildenafil, and of the 43 who were still using it 16 (37%) had to increase the dose by 50 mg. to achieve an adequate result. There was no significant relationship between the need to increase the dose and frequency of treatment per month. Reduction in efficacy ranged from 15% to 50% (mean 36 +/- 12%) and the time to loss of efficacy ranged from 1 to 18 months (mean 11 +/- 5). Of the 82 patients in the second surgery, 39 (48%) stopped using sildenafil. A total of 28 (74%) patients reported a good initial response on the first survey, and 6 had spontaneous erections and no longer needed treatment. However, 14 (50%) patients discontinued sildenafil because of the loss of efficacy. In this group 10 patients had side effects, mainly headache and flushing of the face and nose, and only 2 discontinued treatment because of them.
CONCLUSIONS:
Our data suggest that there is a possible tachyphylaxis effect with sildenafil. Of the patients who were followed for 2 years 20% had to increase the sildenafil dose to have the same effect and 17% discontinued use due to loss of efficacy.
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Dose optimisation
PDE5 inhibitors may fail because of inadequate dosage. Sildenafil should be started at 50 mg (25 mg for elderly patients and patients with hepatic cirrhosis or renal impairment) and titrated to a maximum dose of 100 mg to achieve maximum response. Doses higher than 100 mg may be effective, but they have a significantly higher risk of side effects and 31% of men discontinue treatment.7 Vardenafil and tadalafil should be started at 10 mg with dose titration to achieve either an optimal response or a maximum dose of 20 mg.4,5

Another consideration is the possibility of tachyphylaxis (decreased responsiveness after repeated doses). One study reported a 17% rate of discontinuation for sildenafil owing to loss of efficacy after two years. Another study reported that high concentrations of sildenafil increased PDE5 expression in cultures of cavernosal smooth muscle cells; these findings provide a molecular basis for tachyphylaxis.9 However, this study used higher concentrations than those approved for patients. Tachyphylaxis has not been confirmed clinically, and further long term studies are required. A more plausible explanation of decreased efficacy is progressive worsening of the underlying cause of erectile dysfunction—for example, worsening atherosclerosis or diabetes.

Daily dosing with PDE5 inhibitors
In patients who were unresponsive to on-demand tadalafil, treatment with daily tadalafil significantly improved all treatment outcomes. Successful intercourse increased from a mean of 21% with on-demand 20 mg tadalafil to 58% with daily 10 mg tadalafil. This improvement is probably related to improved endothelial function.

Recent studies show that men with symptoms of hypogonadism have a reduced response to PDE5 inhibitors. Treatment with testosterone significantly improved the response to sildenafil in men with erectile dysfunction who initially had low initial serum concentrations of testosterone. [Nothing to do with the conversation, just thought that was an interesting factoid]

Summary points

Although oral phosphodiesterase type 5 (PDE5) inhibitors have improved the treatment of erectile dysfunction, 30-35% of men do not respond to these drugs In patients who do not initially respond to PDE5 inhibitors, the response may be improved by educating patients on the correct use of the drug, optimising the dose, daily dosing of the drug (rather than on-demand), improving comorbid conditions, treating hypogonadal men with testosterone PDE5 inhibitors can also be combined with other classes of drug. Alternative treatments include injecting drugs intracavernosally, and providing psychosexual therapy, vacuum constriction devices, and penile prostheses
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So, what I've seem to read is that some patients just don't respond to these classes of drugs - about 30-35%, and have to use some other type of drug or treatment or combination of drugs to get an erection. One problem seems t stem from these men having low testosterone levels which can often help resolve the problem.

But, instead of actually showing PDE5 inhibitors cause 'physical dependence' and are required to have an erection, if there is ED, taking a daily dose will probably solve the problem. I couldn't find any data that showed taking PDE5 inhibitors for 'recreational purposes' other than sex impaired the ability to get erections later down the road.

I even found a weird study about a guy who took 1300mg of Viagra everyday for ten years for some because it quit working for him at anything but that dose, but his only negative side effect was blurred vision. Invalid Link Removed
 

The ≈20% of subjects requiring a dose increase after 2 years could quite easily be explained by subjects' vascular function continuing to decline. Target market is old guys, after all.

The non-responders may also have such ****ty endothelial function that no amount of cGMP can compensate for their disastrous cardiovascular system. This is a very different population than healthy, resistance-trained, young males (i.e. this forum).
 
adobepot also makes some good points, and I doubt my funds will allow me to continue with it for 2 years straight and do I have the same risk of tachyphylaxis at 5mg 4-5 times a week? Interesting stuff
 
Cooter Flap said:
adobepot also makes some good points, and I doubt my funds will allow me to continue with it for 2 years straight and do I have the same risk of tachyphylaxis at 5mg 4-5 times a week? Interesting stuff
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If you can find someone selling raw powder it is dirt cheap by the gram.
 
Cialis and viagra combo is how I get down, 5mg of cialis daily and 10mg of viagra pwo. Keeps my BP perfect as well.
 
yates84 said:
Cialis and viagra combo is how I get down, 5mg of cialis daily and 10mg of viagra pwo. Keeps my BP perfect as well.
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Been keeping my BP in check on cycle as well. I take 7mg Cialis PWO 2 days on, 1 off. Killer pump, BP good, increased blood flow to all muscles, wood like an aluminum bat...love the stuff.

Will be taking a break from it for a couple months though just like with anything else.
 
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