celc5
Well-known member
well i suggest not in any cycle or pct. u could just stack it with a fat burner for a cut or with a creatine for a bulk. keep it simple
ReReeking HAVOC!
- Thread starter TEAR57
- Start date
well i suggest not in any cycle or pct. u could just stack it with a fat burner for a cut or with a creatine for a bulk. keep it simple
TEAR57
Member
Gotcha thanks breda.
celc5
Well-known member
no problem :cheers:
TEAR57
Member
OK so the last week or so has been crazy! So I have not posted. I have had good days and bad days but today has been an awesome day! It is 12:30 and I am pumped like nothing else! I am up to 190 lbs from a starting of 178. Body fat is up from 10 - 10.7 so a bit of fat is in there but hey still got abs:woohoo:
Ya boy!
Ya boy!
shlong
New member
No need for nolv anything......clomid and Hcg nolv can't kick start your NADS it's a selective estrogen inhibitor only for breast tissue
TEAR57
Member
Most everyone has recomended definitely having a serm on hand at least. If you were to write a post cycle for Havoc what would it look like?
TEAR57
Member
M Back
Ok so I got a pass to Golds I have been going to my local rec center and my muscles have become bored with it so I am way stoked to freaking destroy this coming week! So my food was WAY WAY WAY bad this week I have been way random and all over the place so this week gotta get it in gear. I have been Carbo Loading all weekend and I am ready to blast my legs tomorrow. :hammer:
Ok so I got a pass to Golds I have been going to my local rec center and my muscles have become bored with it so I am way stoked to freaking destroy this coming week! So my food was WAY WAY WAY bad this week I have been way random and all over the place so this week gotta get it in gear. I have been Carbo Loading all weekend and I am ready to blast my legs tomorrow. :hammer:
celc5
Well-known member
This sounds like a narrow minded statement. IF by chance you actually read some studies to back your suggestion, I challenge you to look at the big picture. You can allow a narrow scope of studies (again IF you actually did any research, but your posts makes it sound like you're parroting) to manipulate your stance on controversial topics, which is an unhealthy way to influence someone like TEAR57 who is doing his best to learn with this log.
TEAR57, just as many studies say that serms effectively instigate HPTA activity as ones that say they don't. The same can go for the debate as to extent of their liver toxicity and effective dosing protocols.
TEAR57
Member
:hammer::goodpost: Thanks dude! Thanks for your earlier recommendation regarding the Metacort btw. So as far as the Serm dosing goes are do you have any ideas 40:30:10:10
TEAR57
Member
Wake me up before you GOGO!
Day 19: Chest, Triceps, and a little bit of shoulders
I am no longer going to post dosing times because I realized that is retarded since I am not recording my thoughts on the times so...
Good workout pump was seriously going to blow my skin into pieces! EXCELLENTEH! My endurance has surely boosted I think I may have over trained last week a bit I got my BCAAs and what not but I worked out Monday-Friday and my body was feelin it for sure. Better now though.
It is hard to tell but I think I am seeing some size increase now my little brother commented on "my favorites", aka Traps. I have really wide shoulders and I was lacking in the trap department so ya.. anyhow. Ok a few things my liver or something in me was kind of hurting today so I mega dosed my milk thistle. I am curious if I am getting enough in?? I Am taking about 300 mgs a day so... sometimes I get it way way late in the day and sometimes way early ...What should I do????
Other than that things are going well DHEA is definitely defeating my lethargy issue and fish oil has relubed my joints so for now all is well scale is looking at 187 and I am not sure what my BF% is right now.
Oh and lets keep GTWrestler in our prayers he has done some damage to his knee in the middle of his Havoc cycle
PS: GABA+Spiralina=Sleepy time dream world
Day 19: Chest, Triceps, and a little bit of shoulders
I am no longer going to post dosing times because I realized that is retarded since I am not recording my thoughts on the times so...
Good workout pump was seriously going to blow my skin into pieces! EXCELLENTEH! My endurance has surely boosted I think I may have over trained last week a bit I got my BCAAs and what not but I worked out Monday-Friday and my body was feelin it for sure. Better now though.
It is hard to tell but I think I am seeing some size increase now my little brother commented on "my favorites", aka Traps. I have really wide shoulders and I was lacking in the trap department so ya.. anyhow. Ok a few things my liver or something in me was kind of hurting today so I mega dosed my milk thistle. I am curious if I am getting enough in?? I Am taking about 300 mgs a day so... sometimes I get it way way late in the day and sometimes way early ...What should I do????
Other than that things are going well DHEA is definitely defeating my lethargy issue and fish oil has relubed my joints so for now all is well scale is looking at 187 and I am not sure what my BF% is right now.
Oh and lets keep GTWrestler in our prayers he has done some damage to his knee in the middle of his Havoc cycle
PS: GABA+Spiralina=Sleepy time dream world
Last edited:
celc5
Well-known member
Well here's where Trauma might be able to drop a suggestion with being so familiar with havoc.
The popular bro dosing would be 40/40/20/20. I personally prefer a more uniform taper of 40/30/20/10 or simply 30/20/10.
At our size (I only have a few pounds on you), some studies suggest that 20/20/10/10 should more than suffice in terms of gyno prevention (I'm sure a good doc on another board would like the looks of 20/20/10/10
).More studies will support clomid as your serm of choice for hpta function, but maybe that's just because it's been researched in the post cycle time frame more than the other serms. The popular bro serm for hpta function is torem, but I personally say it's no better than the others in terms of regenerating hpta from my experience with torem.
I bet you thought you asked a simple question and would get a simple answer... Ha! :frustrate
TEAR57
Member
:aargh: SO UNSIMPLIFIED! LOL! Oh and you wont have a few lbs on me for long btw:dance:Well here's where Trauma might be able to drop a suggestion with being so familiar with havoc.
The popular bro dosing would be 40/40/20/20. I personally prefer a more uniform taper of 40/30/20/10 or simply 30/20/10.
At our size (I only have a few pounds on you), some studies suggest that 20/20/10/10 should more than suffice in terms of gyno prevention (I'm sure a good doc on another board would like the looks of 20/20/10/10
More studies will support clomid as your serm of choice for hpta function, but maybe that's just because it's been researched in the post cycle time frame more than the other serms. The popular bro serm for hpta function is torem, but I personally say it's no better than the others in terms of regenerating hpta from my experience with torem.
I bet you thought you asked a simple question and would get a simple answer... Ha! :frustrate
TEAR57
Member
I have some liquid nolva...since that purchase I have read in several places on the more effective/less toxic effects of torem:frustrate
Trauma1
Legend
Nolva:
40,30,20,10 - I prefer this dosing pattern as already stated by celc.
Toremifene:
120(days 1 & 2), 90(the rest of week 1), 60, 60, 30
- I prefer Toremifine myself, but either should work fine.
celc5
Well-known member
That away bro! Tear it up :head: I WANT you to keep doing well because I'm following your log in preperation for my own havoc run in a few weeks.
Hogwash. Nolva has just as good as a reputation in terms of estrogen control and gyno prevention as all the other serms. (keep in mind that research chems will vary in terms of reliability).
It's funny how all the broskis say how much more toxic nolva is than torem. Check out the Fareston (torem) website. The site that is a major marketing site for torem and their own study shows that torem is MORE liver toxic than nolva (although it's unclear to me if this study is talking about frequency of elevated enzymes or degree of elevated enzymes).
Another side note on serm liver toxicity is that it's debatable as to whether or not serms are run long enough to have a negative impact on liver in a post cycle time frame.
On the flipside, Torem has been proven to have a friendly effect on lipids, which would make it a nice choice after a Superdrol cycle which has a rep for wrecking lipids.
In short, your nolva will probably suffice and Trauma's suggested dosing schedule looks right on target to me.
Trauma1
Legend
Agreed - I laugh everytime i read someone say how "Toxic" Nolva is compared to other serms. 
I've read plenty of research that suggests otherwise as you pointed out celc. I personally don't believe that in the time frame that a serm is used that it would exhibit that significant of a hepatotoxic effect, but that's just me.
I've read plenty of research that suggests otherwise as you pointed out celc. I personally don't believe that in the time frame that a serm is used that it would exhibit that significant of a hepatotoxic effect, but that's just me.
celc5
Well-known member
I personally don't believe that in the time frame that a serm is used that it would exhibit that significant of a hepatotoxic effect, but that's just me.
I've seen a few cases of well timed bloodwork that support your theory after a typical methyl to 4wk serm run. Occasionally you see some mild elevated liver enzymes but there's usually holes in the plan for liver support, long cycle length, or poor timing for the blood work.
Haven't really seen much bloodwork post havoc. Trauma, any links that I might be overlooking? :think:
Trauma1
Legend
I'm going to personally do one for you with just havoc in the coming times(late this year). I'll get before and after bloodwork results done of blood count, lipid profile, and liver function.
There are blood tests that exist for havoc. I could post a few if you'd like, but i'd be willing to offer up my unbiased results for the sake of science!
I know as i've stated before that blood work is very subjective imo when taken from the online perspective, but you'd have to trust that i'd be true to my word with the results.
TEAR57
Member
Hello erbody Im back
Wow sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to this post my god my life got crazy near the end of that cycle and it is still crazy but I have internet again so.... Havoc was quite a success my ending stats:
191lbs
11.8% BF
Biggest improvements were in my traps shoulders and back. Post cycle was breezy kept most everything however about six weeks into post cycle I was required to move out of my house at the same time I quit my job...bad timing I moved in with an old friend who is an absolute carb fiend so for about a month I lived on gummy worms and pepsi with the ocassional piece of chicken. in this time I quit going to the gym because of my financial situation:sad:. Ending stats at that point turned into
195lbs and 13.5% BF
Bad news but I am back at the gym and quickly losing fat and regaining the muscle lost.
Wish me luck I will post some pictures of post cycle before my meltdown shortly.
Wow sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to this post my god my life got crazy near the end of that cycle and it is still crazy but I have internet again so.... Havoc was quite a success my ending stats:
191lbs
11.8% BF
Biggest improvements were in my traps shoulders and back. Post cycle was breezy kept most everything however about six weeks into post cycle I was required to move out of my house at the same time I quit my job...bad timing I moved in with an old friend who is an absolute carb fiend so for about a month I lived on gummy worms and pepsi with the ocassional piece of chicken. in this time I quit going to the gym because of my financial situation:sad:. Ending stats at that point turned into
195lbs and 13.5% BF
Bad news but I am back at the gym and quickly losing fat and regaining the muscle lost.
Wish me luck I will post some pictures of post cycle before my meltdown shortly.
TEAR57
Member
Thank god for muscle memory!!! Its comin back baby woooohh:head:Great to hear that you're back in the gym! Muscle memory is a great thing.
boo99
Member
TEAR57
Member
Thanks buddy boy and I will most definitely be following your HAVOC log!!!!
Havoc is incredible and your consistency will rock its world!!!!
TEAR57
Member
Thanks boo!! Just getting the last bit set up right now tomorrow January 26 will be my start day for the phera! Thanks for your support man!
boo99
Member
Heavy Weight
New member
Topform antioxidant ?
Hey their just wondering how you have liked using the TopForm antioxidants
i have been thinking about using some of their supplements, my trainer suggested i start using a few different products. One is the "Super Antioxidant called My Hero" thanks for any info or advice !
Hey their just wondering how you have liked using the TopForm antioxidants
i have been thinking about using some of their supplements, my trainer suggested i start using a few different products. One is the "Super Antioxidant called My Hero" thanks for any info or advice !
TEAR57
Member
Meh...if I had it to do over again I would probably go with RPNs NOxidant.
Anti Oxidants are a little sketch man but RPN makes great products ALWAYS