rad 140 + S4 cycle unsure now

[Djhotrock]

i have rad 140 and s4 in liquid form and was going to stack them both for a cycle mid year ready for a holiday in September, i have done few sarm cycles in past, lgd, cardarine and mk2866 all single cycles

a lad at gym told me to stack the 2 together so took his word for it

what are peoples views on this cycle?

after bit of research it seems like rad holds on to water and s4 dries it out so is this a good idea?

goal was to add some size while minimum fat gain, would i be best just running rad alone and save the s4 for a cut cycle or will i be ok stacking the 2?

mixed advice on the internet? also says about a test base? prefer not to pin which is why doing sarms

thanks in advance

 

[Jstrong20]

You can stack them. Never heard of rad causing water weight. Both give lean dry gains. I like s4 a lot but the vision sides hit me hard last time. As for the test base you can use a topical 4 Andro. What dose do you plan on running?

 

[lionking999]

Best bet is to try each one solo. See what you think of each. Then decide to stack or not.

 

[Djhotrock]

You can stack them. Never heard of rad causing water weight. Both give lean dry gains. I like s4 a lot but the vision sides hit me hard last time. As for the test base you can use a topical 4 Andro. What dose do you plan on running?

Ah great cheers mate maybe it's just rubbish what I've read on reddit then

I'm not entirely sure I bought them just after Christmas when offer on, I have enough rad for up to 12 weeks at 15mg per day and also enough s4 for 12 weeks at 50mg per day which I believe do it 2 doses due to half life

I bought sarms from sports technology labs

OK cool will look into the topical 4 andro thanks

 

[Djhotrock]

You can stack them. Never heard of rad causing water weight. Both give lean dry gains. I like s4 a lot but the vision sides hit me hard last time. As for the test base you can use a topical 4 Andro. What dose do you plan on running?

Is this topical 4 andro a cream? And is it just dhea? Is there any other product like this in oral form so its quicker than rubbing into body 2 times a day?

 

[Ironpirate]

Is this topical 4 andro a cream? And is it just dhea? Is there any other product like this in oral form so its quicker than rubbing into body 2 times a day?

Andro the giant at strong supplements is a capsule with 110mg of 4 andro. The transdermal is superior to capsules.

 

[Sage0607]

i have rad 140 and s4 in liquid form and was going to stack them both for a cycle mid year ready for a holiday in September, i have done few sarm cycles in past, lgd, cardarine and mk2866 all single cycles

a lad at gym told me to stack the 2 together so took his word for it

what are peoples views on this cycle?

after bit of research it seems like rad holds on to water and s4 dries it out so is this a good idea?

goal was to add some size while minimum fat gain, would i be best just running rad alone and save the s4 for a cut cycle or will i be ok stacking the 2?

mixed advice on the internet? also says about a test base? prefer not to pin which is why doing sarms

thanks in advance

If it was me I would swap the s4 out with acp105 I've ran both of them and acp105 to me did almost exactly the same thing as s4 but without the vision side effects

 

[SatishOG]

I hope you use Enclomiphine while on you’re Sarms

 

[Sage0607]

I hope you use Enclomiphine while on you’re Sarms

I'd prefer seeing him on a test base of some sort wether it be actual test or 4 andro. Enclomiphene can cause mental sides for a lot of people granted not to the extent of normal clomiphene does

 

[KvanH]

I'd prefer seeing him on a test base of some sort wether it be actual test or 4 andro. Enclomiphene can cause mental sides for a lot of people granted not to the extent of normal clomiphene does

That's the first time I'm hearing that. Not saying it can't happen for some users, but one of the most - if not the most appealing aspect of Enclomiphene is that it doesn't cause mental sides for people, like Clomid tends to do for many.

 

[KvanH]

I hope you use Enclomiphine while on you’re Sarms

Why would you hope that? In most cases a SERM can't keep the endogenous test production going, when using proper doses of SARMs or other suppressive compounds. At least from what I've seen.

 

[SatishOG]

Why would you hope that? In most cases a SERM can't keep the endogenous test production going, when using proper doses of SARMs or other suppressive compounds. At least from what I've seen.

Maybe if your on s23 but rad and lgd your balls will stay on

 

[KvanH]

Maybe if your on s23 but rad and lgd your balls will stay on

I've seen some report success, but I've seen more reports of failure. And many of the successful one's have used a silly low dose like 10 mg or something of the SARM.

 

[Smont]

I've seen some report success, but I've seen more reports of failure. And many of the successful one's have used a silly low dose like 10 mg or something of the SARM.

All the "sucessful" serm on cycle as a base are always for a baby dose og some oral and ususlly the report of "it works" isint backed up by anything other then the person saying it worked. A serm is not optimal for a base in any way. Plain old dhea from wallmart would do a better job and im not reccomending plain dhea as a base either. Just a comparison

 

[Mikereyn513]

Maybe if your on s23 but rad and lgd your balls will stay on

Wtf!? Are you saying if run a serm alongside lgd or rad your natural test production will stay on?

 

[KvanH]

All the "sucessful" serm on cycle as a base are always for a baby dose og some oral and ususlly the report of "it works" isint backed up by anything other then the person saying it worked. A serm is not optimal for a base in any way. Plain old dhea from wallmart would do a better job and im not reccomending plain dhea as a base either. Just a comparison

I've seen some with blood work, but yeah most of the time people go by 'feel' and/or run insufficient doses to have a productive cycle anyways.

 

[Smont]

I've seen some with blood work, but yeah most of the time people go by 'feel' and/or run insufficient doses to have a productive cycle anyways.

You would need bloodwork on a compound with no serm and then that same compound with a serm for it to be relevant. And everyone is different.

example, no matter what i run and no matter how long im on i have yet to become fully shutdown. 4.5 years of blast n cruise and i still have functional testes with no hcg or serm.

Trust me you do not want to cycle with a serm as a "test base". I would love for everyone to buy 100 bottles of enclo and use my discount code. But id be steering ppl in the wrong direction if i promoted that. Im hurting my own poxkets by telling ppl dont use a serm on cycle as a base. Use your serms for pct.

I do think enclo is the most useable option out of serms if your someone running very short low dose cycles. But when a cycle is short and low dose your very likely not going to completely shutdown anyways. And, if your gonna use a serm in the first place id still just save it for pct. Serms have there own health risks, its not something to take if not necessary. Im not really directing any of this at you. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject. I have told ppl to start there serm early on short runs. Id rather they use something like 4 or dermacrine tho and save the serm for pct

 

[KvanH]

You would need bloodwork on a compound with no serm and then that same compound with a serm for it to be relevant. And everyone is different.

example, no matter what i run and no matter how long im on i have yet to become fully shutdown. 4.5 years of blast n cruise and i still have functional testes with no hcg or serm.

Trust me you do not want to cycle with a serm as a "test base". I would love for everyone to buy 100 bottles of enclo and use my discount code. But id be steering ppl in the wrong direction if i promoted that. Im hurting my own poxkets by telling ppl dont use a serm on cycle as a base. Use your serms for pct.

I do think enclo is the most useable option out of serms if your someone running very short low dose cycles. But when a cycle is short and low dose your very likely not going to completely shutdown anyways. And, if your gonna use a serm in the first place id still just save it for pct. Serms have there own health risks, its not something to take if not necessary. Im not really directing any of this at you. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject. I have told ppl to start there serm early on short runs. Id rather they use something like 4 or dermacrine tho and save the serm for pct

That's a decent point about blood work on a compound without and with the SERM and to compare. I've never seen blood work done like that, but I think I've seen some (rare) bloodwork where their test production didn't go down or was slightly elevated on some type of SERM+SARM (a decent dose) run, compared to pre-cycle bloods. I don't remember the specifics. So I'd say it's more likely that in that case the SERM has negated the suppression of the SARM, than that the person just doesn't get suppressed from the SARM in the first place and also doesn't have his test production elevated (more than slightly) from the SERM. But like I said, that's seems to be a rare occasion.

Btw, not at any point have I been a proponent of that protocol or said that it's a good idea. Even if blood work would show it to be working ok for some, you'll quickly run in to a wall with lowish dose of SARMs as your only option for cycles you can/could run, like we've talked about previously when this idea gets pitched every now and then.

 

[Sage0607]

That's the first time I'm hearing that. Not saying it can't happen for some users, but one of the most - if not the most appealing aspect of Enclomiphene is that it doesn't cause mental sides for people, like Clomid tends to do for many.

I am not sure if I can name other forums here or not so I won't but yea there are many people saying they still get emotional sides from enclomiphene as a pct. I took it and would say the emotional sides are still worse then nolvadex but that's just me of course everyone is different. Keep in mind serms do act similar to estrogen in the body so it does make sense. 100000% better then clomid though I cannot stand clomid personally

 

[Smont]

I am not sure if I can name other forums here or not so I won't but yea there are many people saying they still get emotional sides from enclomiphene as a pct. I took it and would say the emotional sides are still worse then nolvadex but that's just me of course everyone is different. Keep in mind serms do act similar to estrogen in the body so it does make sense. 100000% better then clomid though I cannot stand clomid personally

How long ago are we talking. At one point i know that people were selling clomid labeled as enclo.

Thats also a good point about serms and estrogen and for anyone whos not aware, if your taking a serm and ai at the same time they make eachother less effective. So i can see a lot of problems trying to control estrogen sides brought on by a serm used as a base.

 

[Sage0607]

How long ago are we talking. At one point i know that people were selling clomid labeled as enclo.

Thats also a good point about serms and estrogen and for anyone whos not aware, if your taking a serm and ai at the same time they make eachother less effective. So i can see a lot of problems trying to control estrogen sides brought on by a serm used as a base.

I used it in my last pct from tbol about 3 months ago. It was from what most would consider a reputable source as well. And it's hard to say whether or not it was enclo or clomid but I can tell you clomid is unbearable to me and this enclo was pretty bearable just not the most fun thing ever.

 

[Smont]

I used it in my last pct from tbol about 3 months ago. It was from what most would consider a reputable source as well. And it's hard to say whether or not it was enclo or clomid but I can tell you clomid is unbearable to me and this enclo was pretty bearable just not the most fun thing ever.

Good to know, ive got a few bottles of enclo, i really dont have any use for them. Ive been trying to think of ways to expariment with it to at least have a personal experience. Ive used every other serm but im on trt now so i only use a little ralox or nolva here and there if i get a gyno flare up. Maybe on my next cruise il take some enclo to see what it can do for my lh and fsh. Follow it up with a little dhea and pregnolone

 

[Sage0607]

Good to know, ive got a few bottles of enclo, i really dont have any use for them. Ive been trying to think of ways to expariment with it to at least have a personal experience. Ive used every other serm but im on trt now so i only use a little ralox or nolva here and there if i get a gyno flare up. Maybe on my next cruise il take some enclo to see what it can do for my lh and fsh. Follow it up with a little dhea and pregnolone

Sounds like a plan! The problem is everyone will react completely different as you know obviously. I know guys who take clomid and claim to not be effected by it at all then there's me being a complete loner on the stuff hahaha

 

[KvanH]

I am not sure if I can name other forums here or not so I won't but yea there are many people saying they still get emotional sides from enclomiphene as a pct. I took it and would say the emotional sides are still worse then nolvadex but that's just me of course everyone is different. Keep in mind serms do act similar to estrogen in the body so it does make sense. 100000% better then clomid though I cannot stand clomid personally

Ok. To my knowledge it's the Zuclomiphene in Clomid, that usually would induce the emotional sides for people, or at least has the bigger effect on that. It would make sense, since Zuclo is an ER agonist whereas Enclo is an ER antagonist. I've never tried Clomid, but I don't feel anything on Enclo. Tamox can make me feel pretty crappy. So far on this forum I haven't seen anybody report emotional issues on Enclo before. Again, I'm not disputing your findings, just telling what I've seen or not seen and felt myself.

 

[Sage0607]

Ok. To my knowledge it's the Zuclomiphene in Clomid, that usually would induce the emotional sides for people, or at least has the bigger effect on that. It would make sense, since Zuclo is an ER agonist whereas Enclo is an ER antagonist. I've never tried Clomid, but I don't feel anything on Enclo. Tamox can make me feel pretty crappy. So far on this forum I haven't seen anybody report emotional issues on Enclo. Again, I'm not disputing your findings, just telling what I've seen or not seen and felt myself.

Yea no worries man. I honestly feel great on nolvadex so I'm surprised you feel like crap on it. The one thing I don't like about nolvadex is the lowering of igf1

 

[KvanH]

Yea no worries man. I honestly feel great on nolvadex so I'm surprised you feel like crap on it. The one thing I don't like about nolvadex is the lowering of igf1

Well maybe I should add, that the Tamox I used was from an UGL, that I'm not so sure about their quality and haven't used anymore. Their Proviron was nice though

 

[KvanH]

Thats also a good point about serms and estrogen and for anyone whos not aware, if your taking a serm and ai at the same time they make eachother less effective. So i can see a lot of problems trying to control estrogen sides brought on by a serm used as a base.

That's interesting. Do you know or remember how/why exactly they make eachother less effective?

 

[Smont]

That's interesting. Do you know or remember how/why exactly they make eachother less effective?

I do not, but ive heard this from my uncles doc whos a family friend and ive heard several BB coaches talk about this. I found out about it researching gyno protocols. The reason to lower estrogen before you start the serm is so they dont compete with each other. I will ask my uncle if he can get some info on why it happens.

 

[Sage0607]

I do not, but ive heard this from my uncles doc whos a family friend and ive heard several BB coaches talk about this. I found out about it researching gyno protocols. The reason to lower estrogen before you start the serm is so they dont compete with each other. I will ask my uncle if he can get some info on why it happens.

I am going to take a wild guess and say they compete for the same receptors and if you take an ai it's gonna kick the serm off the receptor. Or if it's a suicidal ai it will deactivate that receptor the serm is trying to interact with. I could definitely be wrong though

 

[KvanH]

I am going to take a wild guess and say they compete for the same receptors and if you take an ai it's gonna kick the serm off the receptor. Or if it's a suicidal ai it will deactivate that receptor the serm is trying to interact with. I could definitely be wrong though

AI's bind to aromatase entzymes, which convert test to estro and therefore when aromatase entzyme is occupied by the AI, it can't bind to test and convert it to estro. Irreversible AI's essentially kill the aromatase entzyme off they bind to.

SERM binds to estrogen receptors, occupying the receptor, so estro can't bind to it and have activity on the receptor.

So I don't see a confliction there. But these things are more complicated of course and have several downstream effects and so on, so at this point I don't know how that happens, but am very interested to learn.

 

[Smont]

I am going to take a wild guess and say they compete for the same receptors and if you take an ai it's gonna kick the serm off the receptor. Or if it's a suicidal ai it will deactivate that receptor the serm is trying to interact with. I could definitely be wrong though

I dont think a AI binds to estrogen recptors, serms do tho

 

[Sage0607]

AI's bind to aromatase entzymes, which convert test to estro and therefore when aromatase entzyme is occupied by the AI, it can't bind to test and convert it to estro. Irreversible AI's essentially kill the aromatase entzyme off they bind to.

SERM binds to estrogen receptors, occupying the receptor, so estro can't bind to it and have activity on the receptor.

So I don't see a confliction there. But these things are more complicated of course and have several downstream effects and so on, so at this point I don't know how that happens, but am very interested to learn.

Yea I always thought that serms had some minor effects on the aromatase receptors aside from just attaching to the estrogen receptor, but I guess it wouldn't make sense

 

[Sage0607]

I dont think a AI binds to estrogen recptors, serms do tho

Yea like I said could definitely be 100% wrong with my saying. I read somewhere that the serms have a low binding to the aromatase receptors but don't necessarily activate or deactivate them they just bind taking up the spot on them but it is a stretch to say the least