K (Phoenix)
New member
ah sigh
Not like it matters anymore.
Not like it matters anymore.
R.I.P. One+
- Thread starter Sir Savage
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K (Phoenix)
New member
Just read that. Incredible. "I never said it is safe for teens to use ph/ps/steroid. I only say there is no risk for teens to use them." "Show me where I said it was safe for teens to use them? "OOOOKAAAAY " What a way to cover your ass!!!!
YellowJacket
Banned
K (Phoenix) said:
Regardless, the point is (and he knows it) is he wouldnt hesitate to sell his product to a teen. Knowingly sell his product to a teen.
Blacksmith
New member
K (Phoenix) said:
I thought I was getting close LOL
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
Enough of this insanity. Par has done a tremendous amount for this industry, and all of this Avant bashing is baseless and ridiculous. I don't know why, but some find it hard to see what Par is arguing.
The problem Par has with homebrews is that claims are made and there is NO evidence to back the claims up. Some have claimed that homebrews are just as effective, if not more effective, than his own. Fine and good. HOWEVER, if you're going to make a claim, BACK IT UP. This is something that EVERYONE must do for the sake of credibility; even middle-school research papers are required to have references. Par has written articles on the subject of his transdermals, with scientific references a mile long, and has a collection of feedback. There is nothing of either sort for homebrew, therefore, claims cannot be made. If you want to claim that homebrews are just as effective, fine, write an article and tell us why.
And on the subject of older teens (18+), there is NO evidence that it is any worse for them than someone 21+. Show me one, just one, 18-year old individual, with severe, irreversible side-effects from responsible prohormone use. Go ahead.
Avant Labs is a great company, with very talented and innovative people working there. They've done a good deal for this industry, and they deserve a lot more credit. They certainly don't deserve all this bullshit. Avant never makes ridiculous claims, shady advertisements, or bullshit products. Quite the opposite, they make great products, conduct themselves very well, and only tolerate rational thinking. Plus, they inspired the entire 1-test/4-AD homebrew movement. This place would not exist had it not been for Avant.
If ya'll want to pick on a company, pick on a company that deserves it.
The problem Par has with homebrews is that claims are made and there is NO evidence to back the claims up. Some have claimed that homebrews are just as effective, if not more effective, than his own. Fine and good. HOWEVER, if you're going to make a claim, BACK IT UP. This is something that EVERYONE must do for the sake of credibility; even middle-school research papers are required to have references. Par has written articles on the subject of his transdermals, with scientific references a mile long, and has a collection of feedback. There is nothing of either sort for homebrew, therefore, claims cannot be made. If you want to claim that homebrews are just as effective, fine, write an article and tell us why.
And on the subject of older teens (18+), there is NO evidence that it is any worse for them than someone 21+. Show me one, just one, 18-year old individual, with severe, irreversible side-effects from responsible prohormone use. Go ahead.
Avant Labs is a great company, with very talented and innovative people working there. They've done a good deal for this industry, and they deserve a lot more credit. They certainly don't deserve all this bullshit. Avant never makes ridiculous claims, shady advertisements, or bullshit products. Quite the opposite, they make great products, conduct themselves very well, and only tolerate rational thinking. Plus, they inspired the entire 1-test/4-AD homebrew movement. This place would not exist had it not been for Avant.
If ya'll want to pick on a company, pick on a company that deserves it.
YellowJacket
Banned
Some how I knew that was coming 
Avant is a corrupt company. Practice what you preach, go read the various threads we have linked here to other sites where Par claims his product is so much better and his base is "Im Par, therefore it has to be better" I dont mind Avants as a company, just the arrogance behind it. You can not contradict left nut or right nut and not be insulted. They cant handle a debate without getting personal or trying to "out wit (LoL)" you. Chemo has asked Par a million times to debate and compare products and Par wont because that would force him to give up his formula (like anyone wants it) So until that day, I will continue to make as many claims as I would like and he can either put up or shut up.
Avant is a corrupt company. Practice what you preach, go read the various threads we have linked here to other sites where Par claims his product is so much better and his base is "Im Par, therefore it has to be better" I dont mind Avants as a company, just the arrogance behind it. You can not contradict left nut or right nut and not be insulted. They cant handle a debate without getting personal or trying to "out wit (LoL)" you. Chemo has asked Par a million times to debate and compare products and Par wont because that would force him to give up his formula (like anyone wants it) So until that day, I will continue to make as many claims as I would like and he can either put up or shut up.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
Avant Labs is arrogant, therefore they are corrupt??? That is a bit of a stretch, to say the least.
And yes, you can continue to make claims all you want (even though that was not aimed at you), but nobody will believe you, and why should they?? No evidence has been provided.
You recently recieved your Master's, so you know about credibility. You back it up, or you shut up. If you make a claim about something, you say WHY you made that claim.
His attitude is not "I'm Par, therefore I'm better", it's "I've written articles on this with references and you have not".
And I don't want to give the impression that I'm saying that homebrews aren't good. Of course they are. But tell us WHY. Par has told us why he believes his are good in his articles, now who wants to step up for the homebrews??
And yes, you can continue to make claims all you want (even though that was not aimed at you), but nobody will believe you, and why should they?? No evidence has been provided.
You recently recieved your Master's, so you know about credibility. You back it up, or you shut up. If you make a claim about something, you say WHY you made that claim.
His attitude is not "I'm Par, therefore I'm better", it's "I've written articles on this with references and you have not".
And I don't want to give the impression that I'm saying that homebrews aren't good. Of course they are. But tell us WHY. Par has told us why he believes his are good in his articles, now who wants to step up for the homebrews??
YellowJacket
Banned
Well Im not the PH expert......but a BDC homebrew contains more 1-test powder and DMSO for added absorbtion....Avant's doesnt, our's is about $30 cheaper. I dont think I need to create and article, unless the really slow, "special" people would like one. Im not really in this fight to say which is better, Im telling you from the feedback we've recieved and the obvious....on paper facts. And they arent corrupt because they're arrogant. It all started when I questioned Dante, he got his panties in a bunch and decided to be a bitch and argue and those who know me, know I get off on that ****. So away I went with it.
Im not a big PH advocate or fan, but the way everyone worships those fools is pathetic. Everyone over there would listen and believe anything they say, and NO ONE has the balls to question them, I did now im the internet bad guy
Im not a big PH advocate or fan, but the way everyone worships those fools is pathetic. Everyone over there would listen and believe anything they say, and NO ONE has the balls to question them, I did now im the internet bad guy
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
Rhinoman said:
Everything is a matter of evidence. If I told you I had a brew that was twice as good as BDC's, would you believe me because I said so, or would you want to see something to back it up??
I'm sure someone else would have inspired the homebrew movement if Par hadn't, but that didn't happen. He inspired it.
No he's not a god, and his "Supplement God" image is largely satirical.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
YellowJacket said:
Understood.
This part we can really see for ourselves.
Good, this is what I'm talking about. The science behind it. BDC's has DMSO, and it provides better absorbtion because "blah blah blah". See, someone needs to write a nice, professional piece, with references, to show how good BDC's, or whoever's, brew is. Otherwise, as I said, claims cannot be made, because no evidence has been provided.
It has nothing to do with catering to the "slow" people, it is simply standard scientific procedure to back your claims and explain why "X" is better.
The personal stuff I will not comment on, because I do not know enough about it, and it is irrelevant. This is the core issue.
YellowJacket
Banned
Agreed SSX, 100%.
Chemo was writing up a scientific comparion between the two and planned to prove why his was better or whatever, but he cant, because he cant compare ingredients, etc. since Par wont release his recipe. So until he does, nothing can be done.
Chemo was writing up a scientific comparion between the two and planned to prove why his was better or whatever, but he cant, because he cant compare ingredients, etc. since Par wont release his recipe. So until he does, nothing can be done.
K (Phoenix)
New member
Sorry bro. The Fina boards were doing homebrew back then using formulae that are totally different from Avantlabs. Remember Avantlabs never disclose their formular. So you wouldn't have the % to copy squat. We did the work ourselves. 60% Iso, 30% IPM, 10% OA. The original Kentuckey Fried Chicken recipe 
.
But that is a moot point.
Thousands of fina users have gotten result very close to injection if they use 4-5X the amount of injection. So we can conclude that it is about 20-25% absorption rate. Yeah I am sure thousands of Fina users cycle results are no match for something written by Par.
And not one homemade users have gotten bad result.
Why do we claim it is as good as Avant's? Same dosage. Same result. Everyone who uses it, gets the same effect. It gets so fvcking tiresome hearing the same ol BS about no proof. It is just proof that not to their liking.
Of course, my words are garbage. So be it. Not that I give a rat ass anyway.
I am sick of arguing about this already. Always the same crap over and over again.
Btw, when Par originally thought his mix was lucky to get 20% , he recommended a dosage. Now that he claims 40%, how come he is still recommending the same dosage? You would think logic would require a reduction of dosage used.
.But that is a moot point.
Thousands of fina users have gotten result very close to injection if they use 4-5X the amount of injection. So we can conclude that it is about 20-25% absorption rate. Yeah I am sure thousands of Fina users cycle results are no match for something written by Par.
And not one homemade users have gotten bad result.
Why do we claim it is as good as Avant's? Same dosage. Same result.
Everyone who uses it, gets the same effect. It gets so fvcking tiresome hearing the same ol BS about no proof. It is just proof that not to their liking. Of course, my words are garbage. So be it. Not that I give a rat ass anyway.
I am sick of arguing about this already. Always the same crap over and over again.
Btw, when Par originally thought his mix was lucky to get 20% , he recommended a dosage. Now that he claims 40%, how come he is still recommending the same dosage? You would think logic would require a reduction of dosage used.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
Rhinoman said:
That was an extreme example, but still, if a claim is made no matter what it is, evidence is needed to back it up. THAT is common sense.
Everything in science is a matter of evidence, and this is a matter of science.
YellowJacket
Banned
Oh God, where have I heard that beforeSirSavageX said:
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
K (Phoenix) said:Sorry bro. The Fina boards were doing homebrew back then using formulae that are totally different from Avantlabs. Remember Avantlabs never disclose their formular. So you wouldn't have the % to copy squat. We did the work ourselves. 60% Iso, 30% IPM, 10% OA. The original Kentuckey Fried Chicken recipe
Understood. When I first posted, I said the 1-Test/4-AD homebrew movement. That's what I meant, not the ORIGINAL homebrew movement. Sorry 'bout that.
Thousands of fina users have gotten result very close to injection if they use 4-5X the amount of injection. So we can conclude that it is about 20-25% absorption rate. Yeah I am sure thousands of Fina users cycle results are no match for something written by Par.
And not one homemade users have gotten bad result.
Gotcha'. However, since there is no injectable 1-Test to compare to One or One+, Par wrote an article to explain why he felt his had such a high absorption. That's the issue: because there is no injectable to compare to, Par wrote an article explaining why he feels his is the best; homebrewers have not done this for 1-Test. There has not been a strong, central piece that brings all of the evidence together for a homebrew formula.
Why do we claim it is as good as Avant's? Same dosage. Same result.
Understood. I have not seen this myself, but then again, I have not looked very hard. It would be nice to have a collection of feedback, in addition to a nice, professional article, no?
Btw, when Par originally thought his mix was lucky to get 20% , he recommended a dosage. Now that he claims 40%, how come he is still recommending the same dosage? You would think logic would require a reduction of dosage used.
Really? Do you have a link? Perhaps feedback, in addition to his research, led him to believe it had a much higher absorption that he originally thought. A reduction in the recommended dose wouldn't necessarily be needed, as long as the product was decently priced, giving good results, and within reasonable safety guidelines. If you're getting good results with dose "x", keep taking it, you don't have to cut it down to "1/2x" or whatever just because your original estimation seemed to be a little off.
Sir Savage
Board Sponsor
YellowJacket said:
Oh God, where have I heard that before
Ah, but you cannot deny it.
And actually, I think he said something along the lines of "This is a matter of science--your feelings mean **** all." So, I was slightly original.
Now, if you'll all kindly excuse me, there's a hit going down in Grand Theft Auto: Vice City that has my name all over it.
K (Phoenix)
New member
He has financial motive to invest the time and effort to write long winded crap on it. We examined the cycle results from so many fina users (btw, they used a less effective formulation that has no OA) and are convinced of the efficiency. When people used the recipe with 1-test instead of Fina, they get about the same result as those reported by Avant users. Are we suppose to say "oh fvck that! "?
We have been doing this to help out the bros to save money. We don't give a **** if people don't buy it. "I am not going to spend my own money to help your save your money. If you don't believe me then go fvck yourself.
" That is our attitude. see above. There are lots of people who are perfectly satisfied with homebrew. People have no incentive to spend the time and effort to document this ****. We don't do it for money.
What do you mean? Back when I posted the question about Biotest's crooks making false claim about their Androsol getting 40%, Par posted that he would be lucky that his got 20+% . The post should be there at BB.com. You can search for it. His comment on DMSO increasing the effectiveness is also in post over there.
Its not feedback that leads him to believe the mix is doing 40%. They won't dare to claim that, b/c there is zero basis for such claim. We challenged him to get a blood test done, he said it costs too much. You shouldn't be making this **** up, bro.
A reduction in dosage would be prudent, given there is the consideration of the socalled "Hardcore dosage" not recommended to beginner.
When you first estimated that the starting dosage is 40-50mg beginner and 60-75 mg hardcore. Now you discovered (not by anything but simply b/c he wrote a freaking article saying he thinks the mix is actually giving 40%) you have been dosing 80 mg to the beginner and 120mg to the hardcore, all your original safety parameters have been shot to hell. So if that was true then, you have been overdosing your customers all along!! But what the hell, screw that, since no one died, lets just keep overdosing them then?
I am telling you that the transdermal mix was doing 20-25% and is still doing 20-25% today. Again, no one believes me. Fine. I am the fvcking idiot. No surprise there. Adding DMSO changes the absorption rate. To what , I dunno.
John Benz
Banned
Here are a few quotes that show Par's arrogance. Go read the entire thread posted by YJ. It is an enlightening look at his character. These quotes just scratch the surface.
SSX, Please show us a link to the double blind studies done by Par proving his absorption rates. He shows studies indicating this and that, but NONE AT ALL that show anything regarding his claims. And yet he states that the burden of proof now lies with BDC because he has written his articles and done his studies. Whoopdeedoo! He has shown NO evidence at all, and we are supposed to take his opinion as gospel.
SSX, Please show us a link to the double blind studies done by Par proving his absorption rates. He shows studies indicating this and that, but NONE AT ALL that show anything regarding his claims. And yet he states that the burden of proof now lies with BDC because he has written his articles and done his studies. Whoopdeedoo! He has shown NO evidence at all, and we are supposed to take his opinion as gospel.
jbrad1 said:
WanaKnowMore said:
Par Deus said:
Big Daddy Chemo said:
Par Deus said:
Par Deus said:
Par Deus said:
jweave23
Registered User
It's really late so I will edit this post later, but I can say I remember reading the threads at BB.com where this was discussed. Par originally stated around 20% or so, then when asked about homebrew he upped that magic number to 40, although he admitted he had no scientific basis when confronted.
Doesn't anyone else remember these threads that K has been talking about? The whole homebrew thing was washed away so damn quickly that it didn't get to linger that long I guess. I'll look up some tomorrow and see if I can get links, although some aren't there anymore.
Doesn't anyone else remember these threads that K has been talking about? The whole homebrew thing was washed away so damn quickly that it didn't get to linger that long I guess. I'll look up some tomorrow and see if I can get links, although some aren't there anymore.
1Fast400
Well-known member
Ok enough of this BS about how Par won't debate chemo. It was after the above post that Chemo just magically went away in the thread. Now you all claim to have Par's formula. You've even posted on bb.com how you had it tested 3 times. There is NO reason chemo would not be able to debate the above question. The question was asked on neutral ground (not here or mindandmuscle.net). So if BDC is the "ole great one" why is he not answering this question?
I laugh at how you say others worship Par, yet you guys are so far up BDC's ass the only light you guys get is when bdc goes to take a ****.
K (Phoenix)
New member
Par has seen the formular posted. He simply denies it is correct. I dunno if he is lying or his mixer is screwing him. I have even conveyed this info thru private channel to him and hoped he looked into it. I told them the % we got was real . But I heard nothing back. So, go figure.
windwords7
Well-known member
Let me just say that we need to keep the discussion civil. This thread has been fine so far, a few others however were not. I know that there are "guests" coming here to view this thread specifically, so if these "unknowns" decide to post, keep it level. Thanks.
K (Phoenix)
New member
I dunno. You have to ask Chemo that question.
curt2go
Homebrew Help, Inc.
Yeh I always though it was funny when he raised the absorption rate on his when the homebrew came out...
1fast the reason i think BDC does not answer Par is that all Par does is cut BDC down and turns things personal. He just can;t fathom that someone was smart enough to make something that rivals his product. So what do you do then. Try to discredit it... And that what he does. Talk to ya...
PS... Anymore squabbling in this thread i will shut it down.... Some of these threads are tunning into ****. Lets keep this place a good place for info not Drama... Thanx guys....
1Fast400
Well-known member
You guys have used the argument that Par does not want to debate delivery with Chemo. When he is presented the chance he runs. He could post his answer here, on his own forum, and he does not.
Am I trying to egg him on, you bet. I want him to debate Par on transdermal delivery. There is not a link you can post which shows them debating it yet and I'm sure we all know why.
curt2go
Homebrew Help, Inc.
How can chemo "debate" with someone when Par does not have any test to back up his end. He has a bunch of speculation and educated guesses. As do we.( I sound like Dante... sorry). What are they going to debate test scores or something? There has only been one person kicked out of here do you really want to be the second? Talk to ya...
Blacksmith
New member
SirSavageX said:
When the law suit hits you'll be up to your eyeballs in cases.
It's not a matter of if.... it's a matter of when, dumbass.
Exactly what is responsible PH use LOL ?
What if the kid is 13 or 15 .
You still sell to those kids too.
Chemo
Brewing Anabolic Minds
Actually, you have no idea why I'm not pursueing it until Par makes the final move and publish his own formula.
- I will not compare to a formula that is "close" as this is not the same as his. If his products are being pulled why not publish his recipe??
- For the same reason that I do not want to use ellaborate products descriptions explaining the true effectiveness of the products I hesistate in comparing and publishing an estimate of absorption. In todays atmosphere with big brother the effective delivery solutions are being hunted and disposed of quickly. Low key is the secret to survival in the game...
- DMSO cannot be included as part of the comparison as it is bundled as a solvent only in case of accidental spillage of powders.
- There was a thread developing the homebrew formula on bb.com that had links to various works cited for choice in ingredients. Some were the same ones Par used but 80% of my references are in that thread. Does he want me to summarize or can he not read for himself?
Mike, you've had a bug up your ass towards me and anyone that is interested in effective products that are reasonably priced. Why is that?
Chemo
Blacksmith
New member
curt2go said:
Glad to be hear,
I'm quickly wearing out my welcome
on the old site, but anyone who even suggests
PHs for kids are harmless is a dumbass.
If you don't come out and say it unequivocally
when pressed on the issue,
while giving any excuse
then you condone it.
1Fast400
Well-known member
You know why I have issues with you. It mainly deals with the fact that you lied to me way back when. I had nothing but good intentions for you. I gave you my phone number and time to call me to help you set up a store. All you talked about was how you were not going to set up an online shop, blah blah blah. Then 3 weeks later this website starts up. I gave you all those contacts and everything. If you would have TOLD me you were going to do this, I still would have given you the information. After you start up your little business you talk about how it is not for profit, oh please. You don't start a business for charity. You didn't buy your stuff from the patent holder, which really pissed me off. All you talked about is how you were this upstanding business guy and ethics this and ethics that, then you go and intentionally violate that law. If you never would have made the comments about it (ethics) it would have been different. I'm glad you buy it from PA, that is what you SHOULD do. You don't get an award for doing what your supposed to. Do I need to continue?
windwords7
Well-known member
This personal stuff has nothing to do with the topic. You should take it to PM in regards to this stuff. I tell you what, I will delete the post and send it to Chemo for you in a PM.
ShadowJack
Board Supporter
For those that are interested:
Link to the thread: Link Removed
Please note that this thread is from Nov. 2001, so I am not surprised to see that Par's absorption estimate was modified as time went on. Just to claify, note that in re-reading a few more threads, Par stated that DMSO did achieve 25% delivery over 24 hours with testosterone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Link to the thread: Link Removed
Thread date from Sep. 2002.
K (Phoenix) said:
Par Deus said:
Link to the thread: Link Removed
Please note that this thread is from Nov. 2001, so I am not surprised to see that Par's absorption estimate was modified as time went on. Just to claify, note that in re-reading a few more threads, Par stated that DMSO did achieve 25% delivery over 24 hours with testosterone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K (Phoenix) said:
Par Deus said:
Link to the thread: Link Removed
Thread date from Sep. 2002.
Chemo
Brewing Anabolic Minds
Mike, get over yourself. You gave me contact info to 3 distributors of which I do not buy from any of them. I get my powders from China or PA...and you did not give me contact info to any of them. I built this of my own time and research NOT from the distributor list that you gave me. As a side note, I'm not buying from the distributors you gave me but will be SELLING to one of them directly. Maybe you can buy my products when Europa offers them...
I spoke with you about an online shop and last time I checked protein, MRP's, multi's, and the other products that usually characterize such a business are not offered here. I have not "violated" your trust since this is still inline with what we discussed. In addition, this forum and site was started after the homebrew topics were pulled from bb.com. You claim that the letter never existed but the topics were pulled nonetheless. Was it coincidental timing or prior knowledge?
As for the 4-AD...it is still none of your business either way UNLESS you hold the patent. You are merely using that as a vehicle to attack. If that is the only ammo you have I suggest you seek prefessional counseling to control your emotional problems.
Chemo
1Fast400
Well-known member
excuse me while I laugh...i'm sure you won't be pulled within seconds if this actually happened. You think you can get by the FDA for some reason?
I knew there was a little contingent of people who were sticking together. I was getting bombed with IM's all day long from these people. I was curious to see who was connected to who, hence the letter story. All it did was prove me right.
Yes, bad business ethics aren't my concern. I wonder if Enron said the same?
Because it is/was the truth
I guess this is where the biggest misunderstanding lies. You think I give two shits about all this. I love busting your balls because I need the humor value. When dealing with the volume of emails I deal with (is it safe to take creatine?) sometimes you need a little humor. I'm not losing sleep over any of this, so please deflate your ego and come back down to earth
round 2
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