Question about 5-DHEA

[Riptor]

Hi everyone,

I posted a a few queries about 5-DHEA a week or two ago as it’s now been include in a the updated version of a topical fat loss product I wanted to use and there was some debate about it.
I’ve included an excerpt below and just wanted to know your thoughts on whether using this at 100mg (max) per day would be safe or would I need to be precautious about using an Estrogen inhibitor?


5-DHEA

5-DHEA has been popular in the life extension crowd since the 1980’s. It’s typically used for its ability to support energy and general well being. More recently, higher doses of 5-DHEA have been used to improve body composition due to DHEA’s mild anabolic and thermogenic effects. This makes 5-DHEA an excellent choice for cutting during a calorie deficient diet, since 5-DHEA has good muscle sparing properties.
5-DHEA converts to testosterone at a rate of about 1%, however it has high conversion to 5-androstenediol, where it gets its mild androgenic and anabolic effects. 5-DHEA’s thermogenic properties come from its conversion to 7-Keto DHEA.
Due to 5-DHEA’s mild androgenic effects it rarely produces hair loss or acne. Although 5-DHEA has moderate estrogenic effects, it rarely produces gyno or undesirable estrogenic side effects. Some more sedentary users have reported anxiety or sleeplessness with DHEA, which is likely related to the neurosteroid activity in the brain. However, this effect is also reported as “motivational energy” which is a frequently reported benefit of 5-DHEA.

 

[sns8778]

One issue, and I think this happened in the other thread too, was that people may think or have thought you were talking about different things bc the term 5 DHEA has been used over the years to talk about different things.

The diagram you showed above shows regular DHEA and shows some converting to 5-androstenediol.

Assuming you're talking about regular DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone), I personally only use 50 mg. per day max myself of that ingredient in topical form.

If you choose to experiment with higher dosages, I would use something like Inhibit-E with it if it were me - which would be good in a way because if you're going for fat loss, Inhibit-E helps modulate estrogen and can help give you a leaner, dryer, harder physique.

 

[Dustin07]

the term 5 DHEA has been used over the years to talk about different things.

I definitely find the DHEA's confusing lol

I personally only use 50 mg. per day max myself of that ingredient in topical form.

is 50mg the normal 1 pump dose on the XPG DHEA? I loved that and might be adding more to my personal pharmacy soon.

 

[sns8778]

Yes, XPG DHEA-50 Gel is 50 mg. per ml. (100 ml per bottle so 100 day supply)

I'm glad that you enjoyed that. I'm using that myself and really like it - super convenient, 1 ml once per day.

 

[Stacks1]

If you wanted to use something to control estrogen (and I'm not saying you necessarily have to), I would go with something like Inhibit E, like @sns8778 suggested. I usually like Virtus for an OTC AI but it would be too strong for DHEA. Inhibit E would be a good option if you felt you wanted to run something for estrogen control.

 

[Riptor]

@sns8778 Thanks for the feedback ! I think the 5- DHEA is probably a marketing ploy, but in all honesty I didn’t want to use DHEA at all ! I just wanted to use an effective 7-Keto topical to help getting to 8% body fat but didn’t realise that the formula had being updated with 5-DHEA, which is a real shame as the product was a good deal . So, I’ll have to return it and look for an alternative 7-Keto topical.

 

[sns8778]

@sns8778 Thanks for the feedback ! I think the 5- DHEA is probably a marketing ploy, but in all honesty I didn’t want to use DHEA at all ! I just wanted to use an effective 7-Keto topical to help getting to 8% body fat but didn’t realise that the formula had being updated with 5-DHEA, which is a real shame as the product was a good deal . So, I’ll have to return it and look for an alternative 7-Keto topical.

Xtreme Performance Gels is launching their FL7 7-OXO Gel within the next 2 weeks. (7-OXO is 7-Keto)

They also have Ab-Solved which is 7-OXO, Resveratrol, Punicic Acid, and Phosphatidylserine in a localized carrier.

A neat thing about XPG is that they use the Avant Labs carrier systems and each product is customized based on the ingredients, in order to deliver maximum benefits.

 

[Riptor]

@sns8778 thanks for mentioning Ab-solved ! I’ll definitely look into this because my main focus was to reduce the last remaining fat pockets on lower back, obliques, love handles and lower abs and get below 10% bf.

Just I put things into perspective I wanted to get an understanding and have a few other queries:

Would say 50g of DHEA would ‘likely’ cause less side effects (hair loss/ estrogen) if taken transdermally than orally, and if only applied to the abdominal areas?

On the other hand, if transdermal DHEA was applied to small abdominal fat pockets would there be a higher risk of it aromatising into Estrogen?

Would 7-Keto in FL7-OXO Gel ‘likely’ be more effective at fat loss that Ab-Solved since it’s also systemically increasing T3 levels?

Conversely, would T3 be suppressed following discontinuation of FL7-OXO Gel or would they be expect to regulate back to normal levels?

Also even though FL7-OXO is systemic, would there be any benefit in applying this locally to abdominal fat deposits if you did want to minimise sides?

Much appreciated!

 

[sns8778]

@sns8778 thanks for mentioning Ab-solved ! I’ll definitely look into this because my main focus was to reduce the last remaining fat pockets on lower back, obliques, love handles and lower abs and get below 10% bf.

Just I put things into perspective I wanted to get an understanding and have a few other queries:

Would say 50g of DHEA would ‘likely’ cause less side effects (hair loss/ estrogen) if taken transdermally than orally, and if only applied to the abdominal areas?

On the other hand, if transdermal DHEA was applied to small abdominal fat pockets would there be a higher risk of it aromatising into Estrogen?

Would 7-Keto in FL7-OXO Gel ‘likely’ be more effective at fat loss that Ab-Solved since it’s also systemically increasing T3 levels?

Conversely, would T3 be suppressed following discontinuation of FL7-OXO Gel or would they be expect to regulate back to normal levels?

Also even though FL7-OXO is systemic, would there be any benefit in applying this locally to abdominal fat deposits if you did want to minimise sides?

Much appreciated!

An-Solved is a great product. I've used it and had great results with it.

Would say 50g of DHEA would ‘likely’ cause less side effects (hair loss/ estrogen) if taken transdermally than orally, and if only applied to the abdominal areas?

I think its important that we clarify - we are talking about regular DHEA, as in XPG DHEA-50 Gel.

Yes, I think that topical DHEA is much better than oral.

DHEA-50 Gel is systemic - there is no reason to apply it to the abdominal areas. I use 1ml (50 mg.) in the morning and apply it to the inside of my wrist or bicep.

On the other hand, if transdermal DHEA was applied to small abdominal fat pockets would there be a higher risk of it aromatising into Estrogen?

There is no reason that I'm aware of to apply a topical systemic regular DHEA to the abdominal areas. Sure, I could figure out a way to make a sales pitch and a theory as to why to, but it would be just that.

Look at it this way - I'm cutting super intensely right now and I use DHEA-50 Gel every day and don' use it on my abs.

Would 7-Keto in FL7-OXO Gel ‘likely’ be more effective at fat loss that Ab-Solved since it’s also systemically increasing T3 levels?

There is a lot more to the way that 7-OXO/7-Keto works than t3 levels. I don't even really think of it in terms of t3 levels myself.

Ab-Solved and FL7 isn't an either/or - you can use them both because Ab-Solved is localized and FL7 is systemic.

I also frequently state - any localized carrier is going to have some systemic effects, just to a minor degree.

Conversely, would T3 be suppressed following discontinuation of FL7-OXO Gel or would they be expect to regulate back to normal levels?

There should be no t3 suppression while on or coming off of it.

Also even though FL7-OXO is systemic, would there be any benefit in applying this locally to abdominal fat deposits if you did want to minimise sides?

There are people that have reported good localized benefits with 7-OXO being applied directly to the abdomen and love handle areas. So it may have some localized effect, although most of the benefit I believe will be systemic.

Additionally, both Napalm Xtreme and LipoDerm Xtreme will launch within the next month and a half or so, and they are both topical fat loss products.

 

[delsolrob]

Yes, what we call DHEA is technically 5-DHEA - they can be used interchangeably.

DHEA is beneficial in leaning - particularly if your natural DHEA levels are low. As stated above, DHEA is a neurosteroid and does boost Neuro activity. This is generally a good thing and shouldn't be a problem for sleep if you keep you DHEA dosing to the morning...especially with transdermal applications, as there is a slow release caused by buffering the active in the layers of the dermis.

This is part of the reason I only recommend applying most of our products - like dermacrine - in the morning. applying too late in the day can cause some issues with sleep.

If you want a really effective fat loss product (hormonal) - At this time the most potent fat destroyer would be 11-kt - Iron Legion has XI-KT and Iconic Formulations has Ultra Eleven. 11-kt is amazing for maintaining lean body mass while cutting and is fantastic for melting fat away.

 

[Riptor]

An-Solved is a great product. I've used it and had great results with it.

Would say 50g of DHEA would ‘likely’ cause less side effects (hair loss/ estrogen) if taken transdermally than orally, and if only applied to the abdominal areas?

I think its important that we clarify - we are talking about regular DHEA, as in XPG DHEA-50 Gel.

Yes, I think that topical DHEA is much better than oral.

DHEA-50 Gel is systemic - there is no reason to apply it to the abdominal areas. I use 1ml (50 mg.) in the morning and apply it to the inside of my wrist or bicep.

On the other hand, if transdermal DHEA was applied to small abdominal fat pockets would there be a higher risk of it aromatising into Estrogen?

There is no reason that I'm aware of to apply a topical systemic regular DHEA to the abdominal areas. Sure, I could figure out a way to make a sales pitch and a theory as to why to, but it would be just that.

Look at it this way - I'm cutting super intensely right now and I use DHEA-50 Gel every day and don' use it on my abs.

Would 7-Keto in FL7-OXO Gel ‘likely’ be more effective at fat loss that Ab-Solved since it’s also systemically increasing T3 levels?

There is a lot more to the way that 7-OXO/7-Keto works than t3 levels. I don't even really think of it in terms of t3 levels myself.

Ab-Solved and FL7 isn't an either/or - you can use them both because Ab-Solved is localized and FL7 is systemic.

I also frequently state - any localized carrier is going to have some systemic effects, just to a minor degree.

Conversely, would T3 be suppressed following discontinuation of FL7-OXO Gel or would they be expect to regulate back to normal levels?

There should be no t3 suppression while on or coming off of it.

Also even though FL7-OXO is systemic, would there be any benefit in applying this locally to abdominal fat deposits if you did want to minimise sides?

There are people that have reported good localized benefits with 7-OXO being applied directly to the abdomen and love handle areas. So it may have some localized effect, although most of the benefit I believe will be systemic.

Additionally, both Napalm Xtreme and LipoDerm Xtreme will launch within the next month and a half or so, and they are both topical fat loss products.

Thank you for your advice here as I’ve never used 7-Keto or DHEA transdermal or capsules before so didn’t know what to expect. I’ve only ever used Yohimbine HCL / Alpha Yohimbine based products and Y-HCL transdermals like Lipoderm (original).

 

[Riptor]

Yes, what we call DHEA is technically 5-DHEA - they can be used interchangeably.

DHEA is beneficial in leaning - particularly if your natural DHEA levels are low. As stated above, DHEA is a neurosteroid and does boost Neuro activity. This is generally a good thing and shouldn't be a problem for sleep if you keep you DHEA dosing to the morning...especially with transdermal applications, as there is a slow release caused by buffering the active in the layers of the dermis.

This is part of the reason I only recommend applying most of our products - like dermacrine - in the morning. applying too late in the day can cause some issues with sleep.

If you want a really effective fat loss product (hormonal) - At this time the most potent fat destroyer would be 11-kt - Iron Legion has XI-KT and Iconic Formulations has Ultra Eleven. 11-kt is amazing for maintaining lean body mass while cutting and is fantastic for melting fat away.

Thank you for your explanation of DHEA. So basically DHEA, 5-DHEA. 5-AD are all the same thing?

Is 50mg DHEA a generally safe amount that could be taken transdermally with minimal side effects or is it mandatory to take an anti-estrogen?

The reason I ask is because there are lots of literature on the internet about DHEA sides e.g hair loss, fertility issues, gyno etc an the bottle for Dermacrine also mentions a reduction in fertility, so I’m trying to determine whether this is actually the case in general or if it’s the case for a few outliers.

Look forward to your thoughts on this.

 

[sns8778]

Thank you for your advice here as I’ve never used 7-Keto or DHEA transdermal or capsules before so didn’t know what to expect. I’ve only ever used Yohimbine HCL / Alpha Yohimbine based products and Y-HCL transdermals like Lipoderm (original).

To answer another of your questions - yes, 50 mg. of regular DHEA is safe to take topically; I do myself every day and a lot of other people do as well. It's better to take it like that than in capsules, and millions of ppl use the capsules.

The Lipoderm you're thinking of was Lipoderm-Y. We haven't had any demand really to bring that one back, but will be bringing out an updated version of LipoDerm Ultra which will now be called LipoDerm Xtreme and an updated version of Napalm that will now be called Napalm Xtreme.

I'm loving the ability to bring back some of the OG Avant Labs topicals with updated versions.