Proprietary Blend

[Jiigzz]

I like playing devils advocate, but mostly because I understand that some companies also derive what they consider good dosages from in house testing for things like stimulants and cognitive aids.

A good dose of hup A might be 200mcg in isolation, a good dose of ALCAR might be 2-3g in isolation, but with 5+ other cognitive aids you might wind up with a massive headache so you spend time balancing it all to create a product that is both effective, and tolerated only to find Dr. Armchair picking you apart because it doesn't fit the bill of what he read about ingredients in isolation

If you use prop blends to deceive, then definitely that's an issue. No argument from me here. The majority of supp companies likely use prop blends to deceive, and that sucks for the consumer, but what about companies that are a lot smaller who put legitimate effort into testing ingredient combinations? I dont mind if they prop blend portions where they have spent effort trying to produce a good product. Maybe not prop blending the entire product, but parts of it

 

[Nac]

What evomuse products are propblended besides the topicals? Is Bright? Im just curious. I know most are open. IE: Testruction, Clear Edge, Adrenosurge etc...

From memory wasnt Clear Edge pretty much prop real early on when it first went beta pre-sale?

Some of Evomuse's most loyal customers are also the most discerning when it comes to supp bullsh1t in general...yet they (we) "tolerate" any propping dsade may do cos

-we choose to trust him for some pretty strong, fundamental reasons.

 

[210LBS]

I like playing devils advocate, but mostly because I understand that some companies also derive what they consider good dosages from in house testing for things like stimulants and cognitive aids.

But that's the thing. Sure, maybe you can't be 100% sure you will match the products prop blend but you can come pretty close. And that's the downside from a business perspective. If you create a product that uses proper clinical doses and you just throw it in as part of a prop blend then a competitor can do 2 things:

1) Copy your exact blend and cut their costs by underdosing the active ingredients, therefore stealing your market share by undercutting you.

Or

2) Do the research to find what the proper doses are and structure their blend the same way and essentially create an identical product. Will it be exactly the same? Maybe, maybe not. But you can get close enough that users would not be able to tell a difference.

To me, those reasons are good enough for a company to not use prop blends if they are legitimately dosing their products.

 

[Nac]

^Obviously not all products have ingredients that have clinical in vivo data for dosages. And, wat jiigzz said re dosing a combo of ingredients "lower" cos the net effect is better than dosing all clinically.

So youre over-stretching your argument against ALL prop blends.

 

[210LBS]

^Obviously not all products have ingredients that have clinical in vivo data for dosages. So youre over-stretching your argument against ALL prop blends.

Almost every product that comes out has active ingredients that have some sort of benchmark whether it be a study or another competitor's product. You at least hope they base it on something and don't just pull dosages out of their @$$ but you never know.

 

[Nac]

Sure, and hasnt 1fast400 claimed they went through 24585678 various combinations before settling on the recent Quake version?

Obviously its not always just a case of using clinical doses or what every other company is doing.

 

[210LBS]

Sure, and hasnt 1fast400 claimed they went through 24585678 various combinations before settling on the recent Quake version?

Obviously its not always just a case of using clinical doses or what every other company is doing.

If somebody went through that many combinations in this industry then they'll be driving themselves out of business very quickly. If anything that must have been solely taste related.
Fact is, anyone can copy a prop blend label for a fraction of the price, which should be enough reason for legit manufacturers to avoid prop blends. If anything prop blends incite more knock offs because prop blends make it easy to copy and then undercut. Even still, because prop blends are listed in order of size you can very often come within the margin of error of creating the exact prop blend if you really wanted to.

 

[Jiigzz]

But that's the thing. Sure, maybe you can't be 100% sure you will match the products prop blend but you can come pretty close. And that's the downside from a business perspective. If you create a product that uses proper clinical doses and you just throw it in as part of a prop blend then a competitor can do 2 things:

1) Copy your exact blend and cut their costs by underdosing the active ingredients, therefore stealing your market share by undercutting you.

Or

2) Do the research to find what the proper doses are and structure their blend the same way and essentially create an identical product. Will it be exactly the same? Maybe, maybe not. But you can get close enough that users would not be able to tell a difference.

To me, those reasons are good enough for a company to not use prop blends if they are legitimately dosing their products.

You might get close, or you might be drastically off. Sometines the difference between a great product and a terrible one is 2mg, especially if that ingredient in Alpha Y.

You might make a product look identical, but that doesn't mean it would feel identical.

Now if you're arguing against proping ingredients that have purported ergogenic benefit and combinations dont matter, then I can accept arguments against that.

 

[Nac]

Fact is, anyone can copy a prop blend label for a fraction of the price, which should be enough reason for legit manufacturers to avoid prop blends.

Cool, it seems then that you acknowledge there are legit manufacturers who arent trying to fuk you over with the use of prop blends, even though you may disagree with their reasons for using a prop blend.

 

[210LBS]

You might get close, or you might be drastically off. Sometines the difference between a great product and a terrible one is 2mg, especially if that ingredient in Alpha Y.

You might make a product look identical, but that doesn't mean it would feel identical.

Now if you're arguing against proping ingredients that have purported ergogenic benefit and combinations dont matter, then I can accept arguments against that.

You bring up 2 good points. But first of all, from a business perspective, if you are properly dosing your supplements and you throw them into a "prop blend" then you are basically asking for cheaper knock offs. Someone can easily take your prop blend at a lower cost, allocate the savings into sales and marketing, and then eat your market share.

As for the difference in products being a 2mg difference making a big impact - yes, that can be true. However, those ingredients still have to be listed in order. So if something is only 2mgs it should be near the end of the prop blend. As long as there is some benchmark for me to compare that ingredient to, I can most likely dose it at an effective rate into my prop blend if I wanted.

 

[Woody]

I like playing devils advocate, but mostly because I understand that some companies also derive what they consider good dosages from in house testing for things like stimulants and cognitive aids.

A good dose of hup A might be 200mcg in isolation, a good dose of ALCAR might be 2-3g in isolation, but with 5+ other cognitive aids you might wind up with a massive headache so you spend time balancing it all to create a product that is both effective, and tolerated only to find Dr. Armchair picking you apart because it doesn't fit the bill of what he read about ingredients in isolation

If you use prop blends to deceive, then definitely that's an issue. No argument from me here. The majority of supp companies likely use prop blends to deceive, and that sucks for the consumer, but what about companies that are a lot smaller who put legitimate effort into testing ingredient combinations? I dont mind if they prop blend portions where they have spent effort trying to produce a good product. Maybe not prop blending the entire product, but parts of it

Sorry.
If it's not the pubmed/suppversity isolated dose it's obviously an underdosed, ineffective product. Trust me, I'm an internet scientist.

 

[210LBS]

Cool, it seems then that you acknowledge there are legit manufacturers who arent trying to fuk you over with the use of prop blends, even though you may disagree with their reasons for using a prop blend.

Absolutely. I think many companies may use prop blends just because that's the way things are done. All I'm saying is that it may be a better business decision to not use prop blends. A prop blend doesn't mean the product sucks, however it can end up causing more problems than solutions.

 

[smith_69]

Where on that wiki page does it say "vast majority of consumers want open labels"

think you might be crossing my reply with someone else, go back and look- I never said "vast majority of consumers want open labels"

 

[smith_69]

Where on that wiki page does it say "vast majority of consumers want open labels"

I did say "Vast majority of consumers were led to believe the FDA was going to ban supplements "

 

[Jiigzz]

think you might be crossing my reply with someone else, go back and look- I never said "vast majority of consumers want open labels"

Apologies, must have misread that!

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Most are, but the topicals are huge hits and used among some users ITT despite not knowing the ingredient amounts. Sure, they may fall under cosmetic, but you still use the product without knowing the exact dosages.

I don't like continually referring to them but they're the one company I know plenty of anti prop blenders love to use and it makes no sense.

I've already explained numerous times about topicals - if nobody can see / agree on what I've said, then that's that. Basically, find me an identical open label topical... If not, then its just use nothing at all.

As far as your "that's just copying the label" that's all I need to do - you think actual exact amounts matter? See my response about that, above somewhere. What does a guy do in a store or online? Looks at the label and buys.

I'm off to CVS for a 10ml vial of Test Cyp - so y'all have a good one, peace out! ?

 

[SFreed]

This topic is always a fun read.

 

[smith_69]

Apologies, must have misread that!

:cheers:

 

[Jiigzz]

I've already explained numerous times about topicals - if nobody can see / agree on what I've said, then that's that. Basically, find me an identical open label topical... If not, then its just use nothing at all.

As far as your "that's just copying the label" that's all I need to do - you think actual exact amounts matter? See my response about that, above somewhere. What does a guy do in a store or online? Looks at the label and buys.

I'm off to CVS for a 10ml vial of Test Cyp - so y'all have a good one, peace out! ?

It doesn't matter from a "look" standpoint but it will once they actually use it.