Prohormones

Athlete_00

New member
Hey All,

Recently joined the forum. Looking to get some insight if anyone can share.

Currently 192 lbs, 17% bodyfat & 5’10”.

Recently got back into exercising in Dec of last year, been pretty consistent since then. Ran Monster Plexx from innovative labs… I have to say I think I may have had a bunk product. Bulked for 2 months, went up roughly 5 pounds.. I assume this was water weight. Took the loss on it being a bad batch. Ended up with Andriol as I wanted to do a test base to get my levels back up. Ran Sarms in the past before and only noticed some minor strength gain. Thought about getting LGD to hopefully get some better results.

Main question, I’ve seen posts talk about loading higher amounts of 1 or 4 andro. My daily amount currently is roughly 300mg of 4 andro. While my energy and ….”connection” has come back not really noticing much else. I’ve came across content that talks about other supps. I wish MSTEN was still available as I’ve seen so much positive feedback about that. I’m sure that would help me get closer to my goals. Nevertheless starting think that these modern prohormones are…just not worth it.

Started my bulk at 191 and 19% bodyfat. I’m currently at 192 and 17% bodyfat. Do high volume calisthenics with weekly progressive overload. Switched midway through my bulk and focused on Time under tension, and switched back to high volume. When I started my bulk I was able to get about 10 clean pull ups in a set (30-40 total per day). Now sitting at 18 clean pull ups (60-70 total per day). Every set taken to Failure or within 2 reps of. I do upper/lower split, 4 days a week. Well, my strength has gone up. Tracking my intake, hitting over 180g every day in protein and over 3200 calories. I know this is kind of a nutrition log, but because I’ve been taking PH, I decided to post it here.

Can anyone give insight into this as to what may be preventing muscle gain? Thanks a million
 
At first glance I can see a huge red flag in something being done wrong. For one you're trying to bulk at 19% body fat which means you're going to have a hard time gaining muscle You're most likely going to gain more fat than muscle, I don't know what you're using to judge your body fat percentages and I'm not going to say you may or may not have actually changed 2% but what sticks out like a sore thumb is the fact that you've only gained one pound. Weight gain is food related and if you've only gained one pound and it's been more than a few weeks you're just not eating enough food. But I wouldn't be eating more food I would be dieting and if you dye it down to a solid 10 to 12%, when you start bulking again your progress will take off like a rocket ship typically by the time I've hit 15 to 16% body fat it means the bulk is done and you're starting to push things too far and I'll just keep getting fatter regardless of what I'm taking.

It seems your equating your progress to the things you're taking more than the things you're eating weight gained and weight loss is a matter of food

I used talk to text for a lot of this message so I apologize for the lack of punctuation marks lol
 
I've also never heard of anybody loading pro hormones I'm not even quite sure what that means are you just saying people taking a higher dose?
 
Smont said:
At first glance I can see a huge red flag in something being done wrong. For one you're trying to bulk at 19% body fat which means you're going to have a hard time gaining muscle You're most likely going to gain more fat than muscle, I don't know what you're using to judge your body fat percentages and I'm not going to say you may or may not have actually changed 2% but what sticks out like a sore thumb is the fact that you've only gained one pound. Weight gain is food related and if you've only gained one pound and it's been more than a few weeks you're just not eating enough food. But I wouldn't be eating more food I would be dieting and if you dye it down to a solid 10 to 12%, when you start bulking again your progress will take off like a rocket ship typically by the time I've hit 15 to 16% body fat it means the bulk is done and you're starting to push things too far and I'll just keep getting fatter regardless of what I'm taking.

It seems your equating your progress to the things you're taking more than the things you're eating weight gained and weight loss is a matter of food

I used talk to text for a lot of this message so I apologize for the lack of punctuation marks lol
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I appreciate the response!

That’s great to know! I thought I’d rather try bulking to try to get some size, so when I start my cut I’d actually have muscle to show from it. I’ve tried researching as much as I can, and the PH were just supposed to be a supplement to give me an edge on it all if possible. And yes, my mistake, I was meaning increasing the doses when saying loading. Circling back though, content I’ve came across was always bulk first to build a base then cut. So this is a big kick in the rear for me lol

I’ll implement this immediately though and switch to cutting to try to get down to 10%!
 
Athlete_00 said:
have to say I think I may have had a bunk product. Bulked for 2 months, went up roughly 5 pounds.. I assume this was water weight. Took the loss on it being a bad batch. Ended up with Andriol as I wanted to do a test base to get my levels back up. Ran Sarms in the past before and only noticed some minor strength gain. Thought about getting LGD to hopefully get some better results.
Click to expand...

Highly doubt you had bunk product. Those things aren’t dosed high enough to produce the results you had in mind….But honestly I don’t think you’re dialed in enough to need that crap or see results from them anyway.
Not a knock on you at all. Just getting back in the gym and eating is everything!

What I see as a red flag is you thinking that andriol product “would get your test up” It’s SUPPRESSIVE everything you mentioned lowers test.

Personally I’m seeing some of my best results eating as much clean protein and carbs/fats as possible, sleeping better with use of YouTube meditations and not stressing over my training or supplements, yada yada yada. (And I’m early 40s with decades doing this lol)

Highly important!! Stay the fucckkk away from MSten.

Best
 
Thanks for the post!

Yeah, I’m going to take the next 2-3 months cutting back, going to reach 10% body fat before bulking. Sleep is probably the hardest thing for me, usually manage 7 hours on average. Some times just suffer severe insomnia and only get 2 hours a night. Been supplementing some 5HTP and ashwaganda to hopefully get it corrected. I might have to throw those meditation videos in as well lol
 
Right there with ya, with sleep!!

I do a 10mg melatonin, which usually helps.

The guided meditation, gives something to focus on, calm the racing mind etc. Yeah it feels a little corny at first but when ya get past that and give in to it, it works….The best part is the next day not remembering where in the video you drifted off at. The guy I recommend is Jason Stephenson.


…when you shred down, yeah you may ‘feel small’….give it time, you will have such a rebound! When you’re lean and that new muscle starts to pack on, some creatine and nitric oxide supplements will go a long way!!
 
Melatonin seems to not do much, sometimes I fake 20mg and it doesn’t even help me doze off. I’ll try it with the sleep guide and hopefully no whammies. Looking forward to the cut, I’ll post back here with updates. I appreciate the info!
 
Athlete_00 said:
Thanks for the post!

Yeah, I’m going to take the next 2-3 months cutting back, going to reach 10% body fat before bulking. Sleep is probably the hardest thing for me, usually manage 7 hours on average. Some times just suffer severe insomnia and only get 2 hours a night. Been supplementing some 5HTP and ashwaganda to hopefully get it corrected. I might have to throw those meditation videos in as well lol
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Magnesium glycinate and valerian root help me. Valerian root I always have very vivid dreams whenever I take it after I have not been taking it for awhile.
 
I find sleep aids help short term but then end up hindering sleep after a week or so. Better to find out whats actually harming your sleep. Do you take caffeine after mid day, supplements after mid day?

I had really bad insomnia from 12 years old up until 35. Fixed it by only having 1 coffee in the morning, taking all my supplements with breakfast and adding in cardio to my resistance training.
 
LeanEngineer said:
Magnesium glycinate and valerian root help me. Valerian root I always have very vivid dreams whenever I take it after I have not been taking it for awhile.
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I’ll try those! At one point I was at 8 hours of sleep amongst 3 days in the middle of my bulk. That was obviously a big problem. Valerian root I’m really curious to try
 
Joshlm69 said:
I find sleep aids help short term but then end up hindering sleep after a week or so. Better to find out whats actually harming your sleep. Do you take caffeine after mid day, supplements after mid day?

I had really bad insomnia from 12 years old up until 35. Fixed it by only having 1 coffee in the morning, taking all my supplements with breakfast and adding in cardio to my resistance training.
Click to expand...
Yeah, most of the time I have a couple C4’s, but never really drink caffeine after 5pm. I guess this is the next step, detoxing from caffeine of dropping it to one per day
 
sounds like you are on the right path.

caffeine takes about 8-10 hours to clear out your system - with the half-life being about 5-6 hours

Getting your sleep dialed in should be a top priority from a health, muscle-building, and longevity standpoint.

You can use tools like chatgpt to help create a sleep hygiene routine that best aligns with your lifestyle.

looking at sleep from a holistic perspective is important - it's not just the bedtime that matters. lifestyle factors like how you start your day, how soon you are getting sunlight in your eyes and consuming coffee, afternoon activities, and of course when you go to sleep and wake up based on your chronotype can help.

I am a huge advocate for getting your sleep routine locked in.

here is an example that chatgpt created for me:


Absolutely! Since you’re snowboarding from October to May, working as a product owner, and prepping for interviews, your sleep routine should support recovery, mental clarity, and energy levels. Here's a structured sleep hygiene routine optimized for performance and recovery:

Your Optimized Sleep Hygiene Routine​

⏰ Wake-up Time: 6:30–7:30 AM (consistent daily)
🌙 Bedtime: 10:30–11:30 PM (aim for ~8 hrs of sleep)

Morning Routine (Sets the Tone)​

  1. Expose Yourself to Natural Light (ASAP) ☀️
    • Stand outside for 5–10 minutes or open the blinds immediately after waking.
    • Helps regulate your circadian rhythm and cortisol levels.
  2. Hydrate Immediately 🥤
    • 16–20 oz of water before coffee.
    • Optional: Add electrolytes or lemon + sea salt for better hydration.
  3. Exercise / Movement 🏋️‍♂️
    • Light stretching, bodyweight exercises, or a morning walk to boost energy.
    • On workout days: Strength training or cardio in the first half of the day.
  4. Caffeine Timing ☕ (Delay by 60–90 mins if possible)
    • Avoid coffee immediately after waking (let natural cortisol wake you up).
    • Last caffeine intake: No later than 2–3 PM to avoid sleep disruption.

Afternoon & Evening Wind-Down (Prepares You for Sleep)​

  1. Limit Blue Light After Sunset 📱➡️😴
    • Use blue light blocking glasses after 7–8 PM.
    • Enable “Night Mode” on phone/laptop/screens.
    • Dim overhead lights or switch to warm lighting.
  2. Control Stimulants & Large Meals 🍽️
    • Avoid heavy meals 2–3 hours before bed (reduces indigestion & heart rate spikes).
    • Avoid alcohol on weeknights—it disrupts deep sleep.
  3. Magnesium + Wind-Down Supplements 💊
    • Magnesium Glycinate (300–400 mg) – relaxes muscles & nervous system.
    • Optional: GABA or L-theanine if you have a busy mind.

Pre-Bed Routine (30–60 Mins Before Sleep)​

  1. Set a Sleep Alarm ⏰ (Yes, for bedtime!)
    • Helps signal it’s time to start winding down.
  2. Hot Shower or Bath (~90 mins before bed) 🚿♨️
    • Raises core temp temporarily, triggers a cooling effect, and signals sleep.
  3. Sleep Environment Optimization 🛏️
  • Cold Room (60–67°F)
  • Total Darkness (blackout curtains or eye mask)
  • White noise (if needed)
  1. Reading / Journaling (No Screens) 📖
  • Read fiction or a low-stress book.
  • Brain dump tomorrow’s to-do list to clear mental clutter.
  1. Breathwork or Meditation (if anxious) 🧘‍♂️
  • 4-7-8 breathing (inhale 4 sec, hold 7 sec, exhale 8 sec).
  • Short guided meditation (e.g., Headspace or Calm app).

Bonus: Track & Optimize​

  • Use Oura Ring, WHOOP, or Apple Watch for sleep tracking.
  • Keep a consistent schedule (even on weekends).
  • If you wake up groggy, check:
    ✅ Hydration?
    ✅ Late caffeine or alcohol?
    ✅ Room temp?
 
Had no idea that that caffeine had that high of a half life. I guess I’ll have to restrict caffeine to just morning time. Some tid bits I’ll be taking from that list! With my current sleep, just leaving gains on the table.
 
KlausCoin said:
sounds like you are on the right path.

caffeine takes about 8-10 hours to clear out your system - with the half-life being about 5-6 hours

Getting your sleep dialed in should be a top priority from a health, muscle-building, and longevity standpoint.

You can use tools like chatgpt to help create a sleep hygiene routine that best aligns with your lifestyle.

looking at sleep from a holistic perspective is important - it's not just the bedtime that matters. lifestyle factors like how you start your day, how soon you are getting sunlight in your eyes and consuming coffee, afternoon activities, and of course when you go to sleep and wake up based on your chronotype can help.

I am a huge advocate for getting your sleep routine locked in.

here is an example that chatgpt created for me:


Absolutely! Since you’re snowboarding from October to May, working as a product owner, and prepping for interviews, your sleep routine should support recovery, mental clarity, and energy levels. Here's a structured sleep hygiene routine optimized for performance and recovery:

Your Optimized Sleep Hygiene Routine​

⏰ Wake-up Time: 6:30–7:30 AM (consistent daily)
🌙 Bedtime: 10:30–11:30 PM (aim for ~8 hrs of sleep)

Morning Routine (Sets the Tone)​

  1. Expose Yourself to Natural Light (ASAP) ☀️
    • Stand outside for 5–10 minutes or open the blinds immediately after waking.
    • Helps regulate your circadian rhythm and cortisol levels.
  2. Hydrate Immediately 🥤
    • 16–20 oz of water before coffee.
    • Optional: Add electrolytes or lemon + sea salt for better hydration.
  3. Exercise / Movement 🏋️‍♂️
    • Light stretching, bodyweight exercises, or a morning walk to boost energy.
    • On workout days: Strength training or cardio in the first half of the day.
  4. Caffeine Timing ☕(Delay by 60–90 mins if possible)
    • Avoid coffee immediately after waking (let natural cortisol wake you up).
    • Last caffeine intake: No later than 2–3 PM to avoid sleep disruption.

Afternoon & Evening Wind-Down (Prepares You for Sleep)​

  1. Limit Blue Light After Sunset 📱➡️😴
    • Use blue light blocking glasses after 7–8 PM.
    • Enable “Night Mode” on phone/laptop/screens.
    • Dim overhead lights or switch to warm lighting.
  2. Control Stimulants & Large Meals 🍽️
    • Avoid heavy meals 2–3 hours before bed (reduces indigestion & heart rate spikes).
    • Avoid alcohol on weeknights—it disrupts deep sleep.
  3. Magnesium + Wind-Down Supplements 💊
    • Magnesium Glycinate (300–400 mg) – relaxes muscles & nervous system.
    • Optional: GABA or L-theanine if you have a busy mind.

Pre-Bed Routine (30–60 Mins Before Sleep)​

  1. Set a Sleep Alarm ⏰(Yes, for bedtime!)
    • Helps signal it’s time to start winding down.
  2. Hot Shower or Bath (~90 mins before bed) 🚿♨️
    • Raises core temp temporarily, triggers a cooling effect, and signals sleep.
  3. Sleep Environment Optimization 🛏️
  • Cold Room (60–67°F)
  • Total Darkness (blackout curtains or eye mask)
  • White noise (if needed)
  1. Reading / Journaling (No Screens) 📖
  • Read fiction or a low-stress book.
  • Brain dump tomorrow’s to-do list to clear mental clutter.
  1. Breathwork or Meditation (if anxious) 🧘‍♂️
  • 4-7-8 breathing (inhale 4 sec, hold 7 sec, exhale 8 sec).
  • Short guided meditation (e.g., Headspace or Calm app).

Bonus: Track & Optimize​

  • Use Oura Ring, WHOOP, or Apple Watch for sleep tracking.
  • Keep a consistent schedule (even on weekends).
  • If you wake up groggy, check:
    ✅ Hydration?
    ✅ Late caffeine or alcohol?
    ✅ Room temp?
Click to expand...
That looked too clean and organized not to be a chapgpt output :ROFLMAO:
 
Struggling a little with understanding the timeline and you also didn’t even really mention what you are trying to accomplish. You’ve mentioned you were attempting to bulk but that’s about it.

Again idk the time frame, but if your body fat measuring was accurate you’d have gained 5lbs of muscle in that time frame (and lost 4lbs or so of fat) which isn’t nothing. Hard to tell though since you also mentioned gaining 5lbs over two months as well.

Idk why you felt the need to jump on hormones when you were literally just getting back into the swing of things, you’d have made plenty of progress just catching back up to previous progress. Especially considering you also seemed to jump back and forth between training programs, sticking with something might help to better measure your progress.

Your muscle gain will come down to just consistently stimulating via proper training and eating adequate amounts to sustain progress. Regardless of if you jump on any hormonal assistance the consistency in being able to assess your progress and know which things to switch if things slow down or don't progress.

I think if you just focus in on your actual long term goals it can help you decide how far to push a bulk or to cut then bulk. There are trade offs to the different approaches which will depend on the individual, situation, and end goal.

As far as sleep I'd echo cutting the caffeine sooner. 12-1 is my cut off usually unless I really really need it and don't mind it possibly interfering with sleep for some reason that day.
 
LeanEngineer said:
That looked too clean and organized not to be a chapgpt output :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
hahaha i use chatgpt all day long for work, personal goals, etc etc

even pay for the premium subscription too

reminds me of the old franks red hot commercials

chatgpt - i use that **** on everything

1740673933077.webp
 
KlausCoin said:
hahaha i use chatgpt all day long for work, personal goals, etc etc

even pay for the premium subscription too

reminds me of the old franks red hot commercials

chatgpt - i use that **** on everything

View attachment 249565
Click to expand...
Have you tried Grok as well? I use both and compare responses.
 
Resolve10 said:
Struggling a little with understanding the timeline and you also didn’t even really mention what you are trying to accomplish. You’ve mentioned you were attempting to bulk but that’s about it.

Again idk the time frame, but if your body fat measuring was accurate you’d have gained 5lbs of muscle in that time frame (and lost 4lbs or so of fat) which isn’t nothing. Hard to tell though since you also mentioned gaining 5lbs over two months as well.

Idk why you felt the need to jump on hormones when you were literally just getting back into the swing of things, you’d have made plenty of progress just catching back up to previous progress. Especially considering you also seemed to jump back and forth between training programs, sticking with something might help to better measure your progress.

Your muscle gain will come down to just consistently stimulating via proper training and eating adequate amounts to sustain progress. Regardless of if you jump on any hormonal assistance the consistency in being able to assess your progress and know which things to switch if things slow down or don't progress.

I think if you just focus in on your actual long term goals it can help you decide how far to push a bulk or to cut then bulk. There are trade offs to the different approaches which will depend on the individual, situation, and end goal.

As far as sleep I'd echo cutting the caffeine sooner. 12-1 is my cut off usually unless I really really need it and don't mind it possibly interfering with sleep for some reason that day.
Click to expand...
Yeah. My mistake, allow me to clarify. The 2 months that I was bulking was the time frame I changed in bodyweight and bodyfat. My goal was to build a better “muscle base” before cutting. I’m trying to add a total of 20-25 lbs of Lean muscle( I understand that will take some time). And I was partially consistent throughout 2024, roughly 2-3 months on and then a month break between sometimes.

I did try changing from Volume to Time under tension focus, did about 2 weeks then went back to High volume with full ROM to get deep stretches of the muscle.

Nevertheless, that’s what I decided on, going to stick with high volume, and focus on a cut for the next two months before rebounding into a Bulk.

And completely agree, I’ve been keeping a stronger eye on when my last caffeinated drink is, aiming to stop closer to noon.
 
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