Progesterone as an aromatase inhibitor?
- Thread starter made2last
- Start date
LeanEngineer
Legend
No i havent. I usual go to this page at Strong Supplement Shop when im looking for an AI product. I havent heard of that one. ha
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Andalucia
New member
I've used it as a Now brand cream at 20mg per day. First thing, it makes you feel really calm. I have noted more vascularity. Estrogen tends to make me flush and the cream stopped that flushing and seemed to improve the texture and elasticity of my skin. Looking at a steroid pathway chart, progesterone has a number of options of conversion beyond it's one direct cellular effects. So, I think it would be difficult for anyone to make a pan statement on it's effects without knowing details of the plasma or saliva levels of many other endogenous hormones at the same time.
There are a number of websites clearly advocating progesterone cream , some at up to 100mg a day for males which does seem rather excessive. They do site studies to support their claims, but I imagine there are other studies out there conflicting with their assertions.
I have found that a little progesterone cream with some testosterone gel makes me feel great. Interestingly, all my various trt attempts in various forms and doses did not boost libido, but the low dose combo with progesterone definitely did.
Is some converting to testosterone or androstenedione? It's possible. Several studies clearly point to progesterone being THE hormone of libido, not testosterone, though clearly they require suitable levels of each other for optimum function.
The brilliant endo and biologist Ray Peat advocates progesterone only treatment for men over sixty and he has published an extensive body of work on it's life extending, anti inflammatory powers. He also tested it on himself at supraphysiological doses without sides and it certainly didn't shut him down. Personally, well under the 60 bracket, I think it's something one has to try small amounts of and gauge their own responses. As for blood tests - that would be great if everybody had a blood profile on their 18th birthday, then they would know what to aim for. I'm convinced that many guys out there probably have odd combinations of hormones at 18, which due to genetics, work for them. I wish I had profiled at that age - but it's the very last thing you think about then!
Many athletes and physicians advocate pregnenolone for men, rather than progesterone. The thing is, nobody knows what way preg will go once it's in the system... Cortisol? Aldosterone? Testosterone? Progesterone is a step along the chain and it may all stay in that form effecting what prog is supposed to - like inflammation and regenerative functions. I do know it is pro thyroid and anything that supports thyroid is a big issue because even a mild hypo condition can set up a cascade of degenerative failures.
Anyway, these are my opinions and experiences and I hope they contribute to the debate
There are a number of websites clearly advocating progesterone cream , some at up to 100mg a day for males which does seem rather excessive. They do site studies to support their claims, but I imagine there are other studies out there conflicting with their assertions.
I have found that a little progesterone cream with some testosterone gel makes me feel great. Interestingly, all my various trt attempts in various forms and doses did not boost libido, but the low dose combo with progesterone definitely did.
Is some converting to testosterone or androstenedione? It's possible. Several studies clearly point to progesterone being THE hormone of libido, not testosterone, though clearly they require suitable levels of each other for optimum function.
The brilliant endo and biologist Ray Peat advocates progesterone only treatment for men over sixty and he has published an extensive body of work on it's life extending, anti inflammatory powers. He also tested it on himself at supraphysiological doses without sides and it certainly didn't shut him down. Personally, well under the 60 bracket, I think it's something one has to try small amounts of and gauge their own responses. As for blood tests - that would be great if everybody had a blood profile on their 18th birthday, then they would know what to aim for. I'm convinced that many guys out there probably have odd combinations of hormones at 18, which due to genetics, work for them. I wish I had profiled at that age - but it's the very last thing you think about then!
Many athletes and physicians advocate pregnenolone for men, rather than progesterone. The thing is, nobody knows what way preg will go once it's in the system... Cortisol? Aldosterone? Testosterone? Progesterone is a step along the chain and it may all stay in that form effecting what prog is supposed to - like inflammation and regenerative functions. I do know it is pro thyroid and anything that supports thyroid is a big issue because even a mild hypo condition can set up a cascade of degenerative failures.
Anyway, these are my opinions and experiences and I hope they contribute to the debate
jbryand101b
Banned
Da fuq?
SquatsAndOats
Active member
Seems interesting. Progesterone cream is readily available too
jbryand101b
Banned
Don't do it
Andalucia
New member
Ok firstly, prog is NOT used as an anti E in males, at least not in the sense that one would use arimidex or chrysin. However, there is clear and persistent evidence that progesterone opposes the effects of estrogen in males and females. The former is anti inflammatory, the latter is highly inflammatory at anything over minimal 'normsl' levels. In fact, estrogen is mostly a "shock" hormone which rises and falls to initiate or preclude specific physiological events like menstruation, puberty, embryonic sex selection etc. Estrogen will determine the sex of a male after conception and estrogen will 'masculinise" that male at puberty. Estrogen also plays a critical role in sex drive, rising and falling at crucial moments to initiate a mental and physical response.
Back to progesterone. This hormone is a vital step in the production of allopregnenolone, a neurosteroid which determines resistance to stress and depression via the gabaergic system, as well functions in sexual behaviour. It does this in enzymatic concert with DHT. These two hormones balance each other out in a complicated feedback system. The fact that the testes of young males produce progestrone and testosterone should make it obvious it is an essential hormone in this sex, it should also be of concern when there is testicular failure in one form or another. In fact the combination of both hormones are demonstrated in several studies to provide relief to TRT non responders and those with erectile issues. I believe there is one trt physician who uses this combo as a staple of his basic treatment schedule.
As for sources - Ray Peat has over 40 years laboratory and clinical research behind him, is an endo lecturer at US and Mexican universities, and runs a small consultation practise. I trust his vast experience moreso because Peat's generous intellect via his website is a no-frills, no pills research hub bar none. He's not a walking health business like so many physicians turned gurus turned online distributor all over the web and talk circuit. If you want to know more about progesterone then type his name into the search box with progesterone and see what you find. I'd also point out that when hospitals have really difficult cases to crack, they call in Peat, a bit like the TV character House.
If anyone says there is no role for progesterone in TRT or other male hormonal dilemmas then they would need to ask whey it is floating around the plasma of young adult males in such high levels. I am not advocating the use progesterone cream as an anti-E, I am asking people to study this remarkable hormone in context of all the other sex hormones and make educated decisions about it's role, if any, in their own hormone treatment. I will post some links later. Peat advocates the 'safer' approach of pregnenolone but is apparently not averse to short term, low doses of progesterone in adult males. I have found the effects of both to be rather different, indicating that the way my endo system deals with raw material is more complex than a simple steroidal pathway chart, and 'simplification' is a term pretty much at odds with how our individual hormone chemistry actually works.
Back to progesterone. This hormone is a vital step in the production of allopregnenolone, a neurosteroid which determines resistance to stress and depression via the gabaergic system, as well functions in sexual behaviour. It does this in enzymatic concert with DHT. These two hormones balance each other out in a complicated feedback system. The fact that the testes of young males produce progestrone and testosterone should make it obvious it is an essential hormone in this sex, it should also be of concern when there is testicular failure in one form or another. In fact the combination of both hormones are demonstrated in several studies to provide relief to TRT non responders and those with erectile issues. I believe there is one trt physician who uses this combo as a staple of his basic treatment schedule.
As for sources - Ray Peat has over 40 years laboratory and clinical research behind him, is an endo lecturer at US and Mexican universities, and runs a small consultation practise. I trust his vast experience moreso because Peat's generous intellect via his website is a no-frills, no pills research hub bar none. He's not a walking health business like so many physicians turned gurus turned online distributor all over the web and talk circuit. If you want to know more about progesterone then type his name into the search box with progesterone and see what you find. I'd also point out that when hospitals have really difficult cases to crack, they call in Peat, a bit like the TV character House.
If anyone says there is no role for progesterone in TRT or other male hormonal dilemmas then they would need to ask whey it is floating around the plasma of young adult males in such high levels. I am not advocating the use progesterone cream as an anti-E, I am asking people to study this remarkable hormone in context of all the other sex hormones and make educated decisions about it's role, if any, in their own hormone treatment. I will post some links later. Peat advocates the 'safer' approach of pregnenolone but is apparently not averse to short term, low doses of progesterone in adult males. I have found the effects of both to be rather different, indicating that the way my endo system deals with raw material is more complex than a simple steroidal pathway chart, and 'simplification' is a term pretty much at odds with how our individual hormone chemistry actually works.
jbryand101b
Banned
Da fuq?
Andalucia
New member
I saved this commentary on prog from 'Chillin' - a very knowledgeable poster at Allthingsmale.
"PROGESTERONE
"
The progesterone metabolism function which interferes with erections is progesterone's competition with both testosterone and DHT for androgen receptors.
ie: the more progesterone in your system, the more progesterone molecules get "sucked into" cells via androgen receptors instead of testosterone, and instead of DHT.
Penile tissues make a LOT of androgen receptors
......Invalid Link Removed
and so do heart tissues
......Invalid Link Removed
On that basis the penile tissues aren't going to function optimally when they're overwhelmed by progesterone.
The same cells which consume (and metabolize) testosterone also consume (and metabolize) progesterone, therefore the progsterone which gets "sucked into" a cell does get metabolized soon enough - it doesn't accumulate in those cells (as a long-lived obstuction), and it's not excreted un-metabolized (as junk).
Personally I supplement with TD progesterone as raw material for the production of cortisol (longer lived and more gradual delivery than oral HC), and to counter the effect of competition for androgen receptors I always take TD prog with some TD testosterone."
It appears prog/test levels have, therefore, to be finely tuned to the individual's needs. Bear in mind that cortisol appears to act as a 'medium' facilitating the delivery and activation of sex hormones. So, if you have too little, all the testosterone injected will have little effect.
"PROGESTERONE
"
The progesterone metabolism function which interferes with erections is progesterone's competition with both testosterone and DHT for androgen receptors.
ie: the more progesterone in your system, the more progesterone molecules get "sucked into" cells via androgen receptors instead of testosterone, and instead of DHT.
Penile tissues make a LOT of androgen receptors
......Invalid Link Removed
and so do heart tissues
......Invalid Link Removed
On that basis the penile tissues aren't going to function optimally when they're overwhelmed by progesterone.
The same cells which consume (and metabolize) testosterone also consume (and metabolize) progesterone, therefore the progsterone which gets "sucked into" a cell does get metabolized soon enough - it doesn't accumulate in those cells (as a long-lived obstuction), and it's not excreted un-metabolized (as junk).
Personally I supplement with TD progesterone as raw material for the production of cortisol (longer lived and more gradual delivery than oral HC), and to counter the effect of competition for androgen receptors I always take TD prog with some TD testosterone."
It appears prog/test levels have, therefore, to be finely tuned to the individual's needs. Bear in mind that cortisol appears to act as a 'medium' facilitating the delivery and activation of sex hormones. So, if you have too little, all the testosterone injected will have little effect.
kisaj
Legend
Everything stems from pregnenolone, but there is no way to determine the pathway it takes and sometimes pregnenolone steal occurs and converts to high levels of prog and cort and low levels of DHEA, so supplementation is needed. Personally, I'd never start adding in prog or any additional hormones without knowing where you stand to begin with because at that point it is just a chasing game.
EatMoar
Well-known member
It is quite interesting. It can form anything depending on the enzyme availability in your cells. It is the precursor to androgens (minus cholesterol of course). I found it interesting how cleavage just a few bonds results in DHt then another results in testosterone. ****ing love science.
Andalucia
New member
If you consider that up to 50% of the Caucasian European population have individuality/defect on the MTHFR gene, then it must be reasonable to assume that Cyp450 liver enzymes probably have a wide individual variability too.
Pregnenolone did not work for me. It made me puffy and flushed in combo with T Cyp. Yet progesterone did the opposite and it's only one enzymatic step from pregnenolone. I have tinkered with dose. For me, about half a pump of Now Progesterone Cream at 10mg rubbed into the inner forearm sets me up well for the day. I use treble the amount of testosterone gel at 30mg in a ratio that seems appropriate based on comparative 'normal' levels. I am aiming to 'top up' what I don't have. As progesterone counters estrogen, the estrogen receptors are uprated - but they only have so far to go. That I can ascertain, this is a phase that guys 'ride out' to good things on the other side. T gel does aromatise, and I try to avoid that using daily small doses of Arimidex - about 1/8th of a 1mg pill. Yes, I can see that this combo looks a bit of a hassle, but then, I doubt we were meant to 'reboot' our sex hormone system in the grand scheme of nature. I recall Bill Roberts writing about the pointless pursuit of chasing SHBG levels, and focusing on getting estrogen under firm control in older males. He proposed that Letrozole was the superior drug of choice in very small daily doses. I hope to try that vs Adex.
As for progesterone cream with T I was amazed at it's speed of effect - literally within minutes I felt calmer, relaxed, happier, focused. In less than 48hrs I could see positive effects on facial skin. But I felt virtually nothing for days with pregnenolone as a standalone, then I would become really lean and vascular and wired as hell with a pounding heart. That, from experience, was a major DHT boost minus the testosterone. TRT doctor Crisler pointed out that DHT can boost the nervous system causing anxiety and restlessness. Older males have a tendency to have pronounced 5AR expression to compensate for lower T. I've seen a study where higher dose testosterone was used to lower 5AR in men over 60. Again here comes progesterone to the rescue - it counters high DHT levels.
If a Now prog cream pump dispenser is only 20 dollars, it doesn't cost much to experiment with levels as part of an overall hormonal therapy protocol.
Pregnenolone did not work for me. It made me puffy and flushed in combo with T Cyp. Yet progesterone did the opposite and it's only one enzymatic step from pregnenolone. I have tinkered with dose. For me, about half a pump of Now Progesterone Cream at 10mg rubbed into the inner forearm sets me up well for the day. I use treble the amount of testosterone gel at 30mg in a ratio that seems appropriate based on comparative 'normal' levels. I am aiming to 'top up' what I don't have. As progesterone counters estrogen, the estrogen receptors are uprated - but they only have so far to go. That I can ascertain, this is a phase that guys 'ride out' to good things on the other side. T gel does aromatise, and I try to avoid that using daily small doses of Arimidex - about 1/8th of a 1mg pill. Yes, I can see that this combo looks a bit of a hassle, but then, I doubt we were meant to 'reboot' our sex hormone system in the grand scheme of nature. I recall Bill Roberts writing about the pointless pursuit of chasing SHBG levels, and focusing on getting estrogen under firm control in older males. He proposed that Letrozole was the superior drug of choice in very small daily doses. I hope to try that vs Adex.
As for progesterone cream with T I was amazed at it's speed of effect - literally within minutes I felt calmer, relaxed, happier, focused. In less than 48hrs I could see positive effects on facial skin. But I felt virtually nothing for days with pregnenolone as a standalone, then I would become really lean and vascular and wired as hell with a pounding heart. That, from experience, was a major DHT boost minus the testosterone. TRT doctor Crisler pointed out that DHT can boost the nervous system causing anxiety and restlessness. Older males have a tendency to have pronounced 5AR expression to compensate for lower T. I've seen a study where higher dose testosterone was used to lower 5AR in men over 60. Again here comes progesterone to the rescue - it counters high DHT levels.
If a Now prog cream pump dispenser is only 20 dollars, it doesn't cost much to experiment with levels as part of an overall hormonal therapy protocol.
EatMoar
Well-known member
Currently on derma at 4 pumps daily. Seems like good stuff. I'd rather have some type of DHT derivative but whatever.
EatMoar
Well-known member
7 weeks now and I've used it in previous cycles.
SquatsAndOats
Active member
Would it be worth it to use now brand cream as a standalone?I've used it as a Now brand cream at 20mg per day. First thing, it makes you feel really calm. I have noted more vascularity. Estrogen tends to make me flush and the cream stopped that flushing and seemed to improve the texture and elasticity of my skin. Looking at a steroid pathway chart, progesterone has a number of options of conversion beyond it's one direct cellular effects. So, I think it would be difficult for anyone to make a pan statement on it's effects without knowing details of the plasma or saliva levels of many other endogenous hormones at the same time. There are a number of websites clearly advocating progesterone cream , some at up to 100mg a day for males which does seem rather excessive. They do site studies to support their claims, but I imagine there are other studies out there conflicting with their assertions. I have found that a little progesterone cream with some testosterone gel makes me feel great. Interestingly, all my various trt attempts in various forms and doses did not boost libido, but the low dose combo with progesterone definitely did. Is some converting to testosterone or androstenedione? It's possible. Several studies clearly point to progesterone being THE hormone of libido, not testosterone, though clearly they require suitable levels of each other for optimum function. The brilliant endo and biologist Ray Peat advocates progesterone only treatment for men over sixty and he has published an extensive body of work on it's life extending, anti inflammatory powers. He also tested it on himself at supraphysiological doses without sides and it certainly didn't shut him down. Personally, well under the 60 bracket, I think it's something one has to try small amounts of and gauge their own responses. As for blood tests - that would be great if everybody had a blood profile on their 18th birthday, then they would know what to aim for. I'm convinced that many guys out there probably have odd combinations of hormones at 18, which due to genetics, work for them. I wish I had profiled at that age - but it's the very last thing you think about then! Many athletes and physicians advocate pregnenolone for men, rather than progesterone. The thing is, nobody knows what way preg will go once it's in the system... Cortisol? Aldosterone? Testosterone? Progesterone is a step along the chain and it may all stay in that form effecting what prog is supposed to - like inflammation and regenerative functions. I do know it is pro thyroid and anything that supports thyroid is a big issue because even a mild hypo condition can set up a cascade of degenerative failures. Anyway, these are my opinions and experiences and I hope they contribute to the debate
Andalucia
New member
Squatsandoats - I think if you were to use it standalone, then you would notice effects that could not be caused by anything else and gauge how it works for you. My father is 70 and is now trialling 10mg as cream per day. He said that applying it to a long standing knee injury gave him major relief within 24 hours, and he also felt the calming effect. He is combining with 25mg DHEA oral. Another thing he noticed was his erratic blood pressure was normalising and staying lower.
If progesterone is providing a direct antagonistic effect to estrogen and suppressing it's actions, then I would assume one of two results from using prog cream - (1) the body attempts to 'normalise' by increasing estrogenic activity to counter the exogenous prog dose; (2) the body accepts prog as a 'missing' component of normal endocrine function and benefits are seen quickly. This is why I think it's best to work with small physiological doses from the beginning and titrate. That way, negative 'reactions' can be avoided.
I have spoken with women whose use of natural prog cream elevated serum levels after a few weeks at 20mg per day, when their own gyno told them that the cream had no serum benefit.
For me, I have felt physical and mood effects within minutes/hours of application to the thin skin on my inner arms. It is tempting to immediately up the dose to increase those effects but I have found that only to create negative rebound effects. A little dose and a little patience seems to work best in my opinion.
Have a look round the web for some testimonials/experiences with male prog cream use - there are many.
If progesterone is providing a direct antagonistic effect to estrogen and suppressing it's actions, then I would assume one of two results from using prog cream - (1) the body attempts to 'normalise' by increasing estrogenic activity to counter the exogenous prog dose; (2) the body accepts prog as a 'missing' component of normal endocrine function and benefits are seen quickly. This is why I think it's best to work with small physiological doses from the beginning and titrate. That way, negative 'reactions' can be avoided.
I have spoken with women whose use of natural prog cream elevated serum levels after a few weeks at 20mg per day, when their own gyno told them that the cream had no serum benefit.
For me, I have felt physical and mood effects within minutes/hours of application to the thin skin on my inner arms. It is tempting to immediately up the dose to increase those effects but I have found that only to create negative rebound effects. A little dose and a little patience seems to work best in my opinion.
Have a look round the web for some testimonials/experiences with male prog cream use - there are many.
LMuscle
Well-known member
I'm very curious to use the gel I haven't opened yet, but am reluctant due to the horror stories of guys getting progesterone related erectile disfunction, which lasts for months. I bought it hoping to see a libido increase when combined with my TRT regimen, but I'm very cautious now. It's almost spring/summer (mating season), so a limp/dead dick would be a depressing nightmare.
kisaj
Legend
Personally, I prefer to keep my DHT and control estrogen in other ways. Progesterone is a 5-alpha-reductase. This blocks testosterone to DHT conversion. Unless you are estrogen dominant, there really is no reason for a <60 yo man to be supplementing with progesterone and never without blood work to know where you are starting from.
Andalucia
New member
Perhaps the missing link to DHT's failure to guarantee libido is progesterone? There are guys on here and other forums with sky high DHT and no libido to speak of, as well as those with E within range experiencing the same.
This article provides a balanced TRT viewpoint I think:
Invalid Link Removed
This article provides a balanced TRT viewpoint I think:
Invalid Link Removed
LMuscle
Well-known member
From all the articles and posts I've read, I wouldn't touch progesterone cream with a 10ft pole. I've read posts of guys saying they've had a dead dick for 6+ months after using a bit of progesterone cream every day for a couple weeks. Scary sh-t
uprightrows
Active member
Ummm... I think a lot of the people who are confused here might be getting progesterone confused with prolactin. One definitely causes ED (prolactin) which tends to be elevated when you have high levels of progesterone which suddenly drop (hence the leaky nips when you stop 19-nors), progesterone does not cause ED and may cause the opposite, but that doesn't mean its a good idea to add a lot of exogenous progesterone because when you come off.... hello elevated prolactin.
kisaj
Legend
No there is no confusion.
kisaj
Legend
It is easy to find what you want to hear. The point is, you will be very hard pressed to find endos or hormone therapists that would agree with men taking progesterone unless they were deficient and even then, the first step is pregnenolone supplementation. I've had this discussion with many people in this industry and it is universally agreed that they would not go this route unless needed. My father's urologist said that they have looked into this for prostate cancer therapy, but even they do not feel comfortable with recommending it.
Point being, stop slathering yourselves with this unless you know you actually need it and then discuss with your doc to see if this is the correct approach.
Andalucia
New member
The point is that that there is a lack of research of big pharma into the effects of a BIOIDENTICAL progesterone. They only make money from taking a perfectly designed hormone and clipping a carbon ring or two off that molecule. Put simply, synthetic progesterone is dangerous. It's no wonder, therefore, that physicians are sceptical based on the track record of available 'drugs'.
The point about prolactin is sound science. Progesterone is a default mechanism for suppressing elevated prolactin. The former is antiinflammatory, pro dopamine and pro thyroid. The latter opposes all three. If someone stops using a progesterone analog, a prolactin rebound is likely as natural progestrone production is already suppressed.
"So far, the rule in most estrogen/progesterone research has been to devise experiments so that claims of benefit can be made for estrogen, with the expectation that they will meet an uncritical audience. In some studies, it’s hard to tell whether idiocy or subterfuge is responsible for the way the experiment was designed and described, for example when synthetic chemicals with anti-progesterone activity are described as “progesterone.”
The one guy who actually does the research (free of drug company bribes) and tests it on himself at supra physiological doses, who had TRT mapped out and critiqued before it became a therapeutic option, and then published all his body of work for free... is bound to attract a critical response...
Invalid Link Removed
The point about prolactin is sound science. Progesterone is a default mechanism for suppressing elevated prolactin. The former is antiinflammatory, pro dopamine and pro thyroid. The latter opposes all three. If someone stops using a progesterone analog, a prolactin rebound is likely as natural progestrone production is already suppressed.
"So far, the rule in most estrogen/progesterone research has been to devise experiments so that claims of benefit can be made for estrogen, with the expectation that they will meet an uncritical audience. In some studies, it’s hard to tell whether idiocy or subterfuge is responsible for the way the experiment was designed and described, for example when synthetic chemicals with anti-progesterone activity are described as “progesterone.”
The one guy who actually does the research (free of drug company bribes) and tests it on himself at supra physiological doses, who had TRT mapped out and critiqued before it became a therapeutic option, and then published all his body of work for free... is bound to attract a critical response...
Invalid Link Removed