Post-Workout Carbs: Yes? Or nah?

Bossmoss94

Bossmoss94

New member
According to Kris Gethin, recent human studies have shown that body builders do not deplete their glycogen stores in their bodies enough to supplement with post workout carbs. He himself, had barely touched his glycogen stores after a 2 1/2 hour workout.
What is everyone's thoughts on this? I know I use post workout carbs. I've experimented with different kinds and I think I can tell a difference between taking them and not taking them (placebo effect? :P).
Let's pick each other's brains ?
 
I have some carbs pre/intra and then I just take a protein shake after training followed with food when I get home. I don't think it is necessary to take carbs directly after strength training. I rather get home and eat my carbs.
 
Deplete glycogen stores? Not a chance. Unless you run a marathon or fasted for like 24h. Correct me if Im wrong
 
I just take some whey post workout..
 
Lyle:

Invalid Link Removed

Which leads us towards an ideal of post-workout nutrition. First and foremost I should point out that if you train and don’t eat anything afterwards (and this assumes you haven’t eaten a few hours before), the body will actually remain in a net catabolic state. That is, protein breakdown will be greater than protein synthesis. That’s bad. But only really applies if you’re training first thing in the morning after a fast (how many studies are done) and haven’t eaten anything.

The answer there is clearly protein alone which will be vastly superior to carbohydrate alone. Because while consuming carbohydrates will decrease protein breakdown, only protein will increase protein synthesis (and provide the building blocks for building new muscle).

In any case, that’s the overall conclusion that I draw from looking at the body of literature: while protein alone is superior to carbohydrates alone, the combination of the two will have the greatest impact on promoting muscle growth (as well as having other beneficial effects on muscle glycogen, etc). How much of each? Well that depends on a host of other factors that will have to wait for a later article (The Protein Book)

Alan Aragon:

Invalid Link Removed

When are Carbs and Protein VERY Important Post-workout?

Carbs:
- During leg Training + HIIT Cardio or doing a 2-3 hour intense workout session
Protein:
-Resistance Training in a fasted state (no meal consumed at least 3-4 hours prior)

When are Carbs and Protein of lesser importance Post-workout?

Carbs:
- 1-2 hour training session after a pre-workout meal (Small or mixed 2-3 hours prior to session)
Protein:
- Training after a meal composed of 20-40g Protein at least 1-2 hours prior to a workout in a fed state.

Overall Cliffs:

- Nutrient Timing can be beneficial but window of opportunity is not as big as believed
- Provided protein rich meal 3-4 hours prior to training, there is no stress about immediate post-workout protein supplement or meal
- Consume .4-.5g/kg of LBM in a pre/post workout exercise window spaced 4-6 hours depending on meal size.
- Post workout carb intake does not meaningful increase aabolicsm unless doing a 2 a day workout session involving same muscle groups. Glycogen is not a limting factor if you can consume enough Carbohydrates daily in the 24 hour period.

Layne Norton also has a video on Carbohydrate Metabolism:

[video=youtube;4T05SZ5JcwA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T05SZ5JcwA[/video]
*discuss carbohydrates and their effects on anabolism, fat loss, metabolism, and metabolic adaptation.

30g glucose vs. 90g glucose post workout with 30g whey:
Invalid Link Removed
 
Shaner091 said:
BeastFitness
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tag man!

So in regards to post workout intake, first we need to look at a few factors: time of day training, intensity of training session, current goals, current intake, current peri-workout nutrition, etc. As you can see there are many variables to consider before determining PWO CHO intake.

Its not as simple as making a blanket statement saying "you need post workout carbs" because thats going to depend on your pre-workout and intra-workout nutrition as well. Say you workout for 2-3 hours of truly intense training and your consuming intraworkout carbs+aminos…that intraworkout BECOMES part of your post workout given the length of the session. Now does that mean that post workout is useless? Not at all. Implementing more nutrients post workout are only going to aid you in optimal growth and recovery.

Remember that your not ONLY looking at glycogen stores but also maximizes MPS and increasing recovery time. Everything CAN work but finding what is OPTIMAL is better, so its really going to be person to person dependent.

But, what is a universal statement is "PERI-WORKOUT NUTRITION WILL ONLY HELP YOU."


No offense but Kris Gethin is an idiot…not a fan of him personally (mainly because he makes the most bold statements or training protocols simply to get the attention of the masses and expand his brand…thats not my style of marketing.)
 
I always whip up a post-workout shake with a small amount of frozen fruit, fat free milk, and protein powder. In my experience, that little bit of fruit curves that after workout lethargy that can sometimes set in. Plus it taste awesome!
 
Came in to post the Alan Aragon study the The Solution linked. I think it's also important to note that meeting your overall macros/cals by the end of the day, nutrient timing likely won't make that much of an impact on your goals. And, as mentioned above, the "window" is quite longer than initially thought. People overthink this a lot when they're not even meeting their basic calorie requirements.
 
Epolis13 said:
Came in to post the Alan Aragon study the The Solution linked. I think it's also important to note that meeting your overall macros/cals by the end of the day, nutrient timing likely won't make that much of an impact on your goals. And, as mentioned above, the "window" is quite longer than initially thought. People overthink this a lot when they're not even meeting their basic calorie requirements.
Click to expand...

I would also add for example Chris aceto is a bigger advocate of pre workout carbs to post workout carbs. His clients eat pow fat muffins and brownies during prep .

John meadows is also very big on peri workout nutrition as Alex stated . Give the body what it wants at the most opportune times for optimal training

Especially for those in a fasted State it may be better to give the body some carbs to
Help fight fatigue during a workout. Not to mention provide a better training environment.

The goal of the athlete is one to consider too. Not everyone has the caloric allotment to shuttle a lot of carbs around or post workout . Some people when dieting have to limit themselves to nothing to get shredded (carb wise)

For the casual gym goer it could be an experiment to see what works best with your body .
 
Great stuff in here. I have to say that if you eat consistently I have found that just Whey post workout is about as good as it gets for a bodybuilder and then eat a solid meal fairly soon afterwards. I have to say though, I never did intra workout carbs but with a scoop of cytomax with my bcaa during workout I def noticed a positive difference in energy levels (when I was bulking). That's just my .02
 
Probably needed when you are on gear or if a serious BB competitor or athlete (explaining stance of Norton, Aragon, etc.).

If you aren't, not needed at all. I've been now strict keto 3 months straight with zero carb refeeds and carbs below 40g every day, doing 5/3/1 program and strength or endurance never fell. I have never felt better or stronger in my life. Carbs can go screw themselves. Fats for life. :)

I also train fasted (no actual meal since 9 pm previous night) at 7 am and don't eat afterwards until at least 1 pm (only have 10g BCAAs pre, some EAAs intra and anoher 10g BCAAs post). No muscle loss at all. Quite the contrary. And I highly doubt I'm the only one.
 
The Solution said:
I would also add for example Chris aceto is a bigger advocate of pre workout carbs to post workout carbs. His clients eat pow fat muffins and brownies during prep .

John meadows is also very big on peri workout nutrition as Alex stated . Give the body what it wants at the most opportune times for optimal training

Especially for those in a fasted State it may be better to give the body some carbs to
Help fight fatigue during a workout. Not to mention provide a better training environment.

The goal of the athlete is one to consider too. Not everyone has the caloric allotment to shuttle a lot of carbs around or post workout . Some people when dieting have to limit themselves to nothing to get shredded (carb wise)

For the casual gym goer it could be an experiment to see what works best with your body .
Click to expand...

All of this. Personally I've found periworkout nutrition/carbs to be extremely beneficial for the type of training I do.
 
Epolis13 said:
All of this. Personally I've found periworkout nutrition/carbs to be extremely beneficial for the type of training I do.
Click to expand...

The Solution said:
The goal of the athlete is one to consider too.
Click to expand...

^^^BOTH of those are MAJOR points for people to consider. How extreme are your goals? How extreme is your training? If they're both extreme then obviously taking nutrient timing to the extreme is going to be essential


Rushie said:
Probably needed when you are on gear or if a serious BB competitor or athlete (explaining stance of Norton, Aragon, etc.).
Click to expand...

This is something else not many talk about. Yes peri-workout nutrition is beneficial for everyone BUT if you have someone utilizing specific compound protocols, the need for certain nutrients at certain times peri-workout comes into play as then your looking at increasing specific factors, ensuring your not going hypo, not interfering with exogenous hormone timing, etc…the list goes on and on.

An obvious example is exogenous insulin. If your taking exogenous insulin then you'll NEED intraworkout carbohydrates (not to the degree that many believe but still they are needed)
 
The Solution said:
Lyle:

Invalid Link Removed

Which leads us towards an ideal of post-workout nutrition. First and foremost I should point out that if you train and don’t eat anything afterwards (and this assumes you haven’t eaten a few hours before), the body will actually remain in a net catabolic state. That is, protein breakdown will be greater than protein synthesis. That’s bad. But only really applies if you’re training first thing in the morning after a fast (how many studies are done) and haven’t eaten anything.

The answer there is clearly protein alone which will be vastly superior to carbohydrate alone. Because while consuming carbohydrates will decrease protein breakdown, only protein will increase protein synthesis (and provide the building blocks for building new muscle).

In any case, that’s the overall conclusion that I draw from looking at the body of literature: while protein alone is superior to carbohydrates alone, the combination of the two will have the greatest impact on promoting muscle growth (as well as having other beneficial effects on muscle glycogen, etc). How much of each? Well that depends on a host of other factors that will have to wait for a later article (The Protein Book)

Alan Aragon:

Invalid Link Removed

When are Carbs and Protein VERY Important Post-workout?

Carbs:
- During leg Training + HIIT Cardio or doing a 2-3 hour intense workout session
Protein:
-Resistance Training in a fasted state (no meal consumed at least 3-4 hours prior)

When are Carbs and Protein of lesser importance Post-workout?

Carbs:
- 1-2 hour training session after a pre-workout meal (Small or mixed 2-3 hours prior to session)
Protein:
- Training after a meal composed of 20-40g Protein at least 1-2 hours prior to a workout in a fed state.

Overall Cliffs:

- Nutrient Timing can be beneficial but window of opportunity is not as big as believed
- Provided protein rich meal 3-4 hours prior to training, there is no stress about immediate post-workout protein supplement or meal
- Consume .4-.5g/kg of LBM in a pre/post workout exercise window spaced 4-6 hours depending on meal size.
- Post workout carb intake does not meaningful increase aabolicsm unless doing a 2 a day workout session involving same muscle groups. Glycogen is not a limting factor if you can consume enough Carbohydrates daily in the 24 hour period.

Layne Norton also has a video on Carbohydrate Metabolism:

[video=youtube;4T05SZ5JcwA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T05SZ5JcwA[/video]
*discuss carbohydrates and their effects on anabolism, fat loss, metabolism, and metabolic adaptation.

30g glucose vs. 90g glucose post workout with 30g whey:
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Nice reading, thanks!


BeastFitness said:
^^^BOTH of those are MAJOR points for people to consider. How extreme are your goals? How extreme is your training? If they're both extreme then obviously taking nutrient timing to the extreme is going to be essential




This is something else not many talk about. Yes peri-workout nutrition is beneficial for everyone BUT if you have someone utilizing specific compound protocols, the need for certain nutrients at certain times peri-workout comes into play as then your looking at increasing specific factors, ensuring your not going hypo, not interfering with exogenous hormone timing, etc…the list goes on and on.

An obvious example is exogenous insulin. If your taking exogenous insulin then you'll NEED intraworkout carbohydrates (not to the degree that many believe but still they are needed)
Click to expand...

Exactly, never had any intra-post carbs but now that Im playing igf1-des try some cyclic dextrin and peptopro intra but still dont know if they are that essential
 
GreekTheBrick said:
Exactly, never had any intra-post carbs but now that Im playing igf1-des try some cyclic dextrin and peptopro intra but still dont know if they are that essential
Click to expand...

Glad you posted because that IS essential with DES. DES will cause a rapid drop in glucose levels and have insulin like effects. Carbs are a must. If your having carbs then might as well have another nutrient to increase your growth potential (like the peptopro you have in)
 
BeastFitness said:
Glad you posted because that IS essential with DES. DES will cause a rapid drop in glucose levels and have insulin like effects. Carbs are a must. If your having carbs then might as well have another nutrient to increase your growth potential (like the peptopro you have in)
Click to expand...

Good to know Im not wasting my money! Thanks brother
 
I stopped all carbs after my PrWO meal - haven't noticed any deleterious effects. I still have some body fat though - maybe if I was 7% I wouldn't GAS, but I think all the talk about glycogen depletion in people who just lift weights for an hour or two is way overblown.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I stopped all carbs after my PrWO meal - haven't noticed any deleterious effects. I still have some body fat though - maybe if I was 7% I wouldn't GAS, but I think all the talk about glycogen depletion in people who just lift weights for an hour or two is way overblown.
Click to expand...

Remember that stored fat cells can act as a caloric medium and your most likely utilizing those during your workout

And too many people look at 'glycogen depletion' and not the HOST of other anabolic benefits OF intra and post workout supplementation. Depleting glycogen stores is near the bottom of the list of importance when you have many other hormonal and translocating effects going on
 
BeastFitness said:
Remember that stored fat cells can act as a caloric medium and your most likely utilizing those during your workout

And too many people look at 'glycogen depletion' and not the HOST of other anabolic benefits OF intra and post workout supplementation. Depleting glycogen stores is near the bottom of the list of importance when you have many other hormonal and translocating effects going on
Click to expand...

Straight up knowledge
 
BeastFitness said:
Remember that stored fat cells can act as a caloric medium and your most likely utilizing those during your workout

And too many people look at 'glycogen depletion' and not the HOST of other anabolic benefits OF intra and post workout supplementation. Depleting glycogen stores is near the bottom of the list of importance when you have many other hormonal and translocating effects going on
Click to expand...

Yeah, but with increased translocation and things being elevated for long periods post exercise, the need to consume carbs immediately post, or in a short window thereafter is dramatically reduced (provided non fasted).
 
I NEED post workout carbs. Why? We'll because I'm starving. Glycogen depletion? Unlikely. Anecdotally, I have sustained good performance after very intense bouts of contact sports (constant sprinting, etc.), and I have had bad performance when refueling.
Another factor to take into account: I don't have the citation at hand (this was a while ago), but I remember reading a while ago a study that found long term adaptations occurred from resistance training with glycogen depletion. So it may not be a bad thing after all, especially if you do any type of competition based sport. But again, that's just what I remember from it.
 
toddmuelheim said:
Straight up knowledge
Click to expand...

Thanks brother!

Jiigzz said:
Yeah, but with increased translocation and things being elevated for long periods post exercise, the need to consume carbs immediately post, or in a short window thereafter is dramatically reduced (provided non fasted).
Click to expand...

This is to broad of a statement to make and doesn't apply to everyone. What if someone is a high level athlete and NOT utilizing intraworkout nutrition? Then post workout nutrition becomes more important. And in reverse, if a high level athlete is consuming intraworkout nutrition then post workout does reduce BUT is still beneficial.

It doesn't have to be an either or. Why can't it be an and?

hewhoisripped said:
I NEED post workout carbs. Why? We'll because I'm starving. Glycogen depletion? Unlikely. Anecdotally, I have sustained good performance after very intense bouts of contact sports (constant sprinting, etc.), and I have had bad performance when refueling.
Another factor to take into account: I don't have the citation at hand (this was a while ago), but I remember reading a while ago a study that found long term adaptations occurred from resistance training with glycogen depletion. So it may not be a bad thing after all, especially if you do any type of competition based sport. But again, that's just what I remember from it.
Click to expand...

LOVE that you do what works FOR YOU! It completely changes from person to person, genetics to genetics, goals to goals, etc.
 
I'm currently doing this (have been for a while) and am still progressing nicely (I'd have to go deep into the log book math to see an exact percentage pro/con - but I haven't felt the need as I perceive no regression what so ever):

Invalid Link Removed
 
hewhoisripped said:
I NEED post workout carbs. Why? We'll because I'm starving. Glycogen depletion? Unlikely. Anecdotally, I have sustained good performance after very intense bouts of contact sports (constant sprinting, etc.), and I have had bad performance when refueling.
Another factor to take into account: I don't have the citation at hand (this was a while ago), but I remember reading a while ago a study that found long term adaptations occurred from resistance training with glycogen depletion. So it may not be a bad thing after all, especially if you do any type of competition based sport. But again, that's just what I remember from it.
Click to expand...

BeastFitness said:
LOVE that you do what works FOR YOU! It completely changes from person to person, genetics to genetics, goals to goals, etc.
Click to expand...

I think its great that we can pull from each other to see what works. I always have a small amount of carbs post-workout. I blend up some frozen fruit in my post-workout protein shake, which helps prevent that after workout lethargy that can sometimes set in (and it taste great!).

All and all, we wont come to an ultimate conclusion on this topic. I agree with BeastFitness about genetics/goals. I would also toss in the bag, workout intensity. If lift for 1 1/2 hours, I am cool with just protein, but if I do intense cardio for that same amount of time, I better get some carbs in me similar to hewhoisripped.
 
Joe12 said:
I think its great that we can pull from each other to see what works. I always have a small amount of carbs post-workout. I blend up some frozen fruit in my post-workout protein shake, which helps prevent that after workout lethargy that can sometimes set in (and it taste great!).

All and all, we wont come to an ultimate conclusion on this topic. I agree with BeastFitness about genetics/goals. I would also toss in the bag, workout intensity. If lift for 1 1/2 hours, I am cool with just protein, but if I do intense cardio for that same amount of time, I better get some carbs in me similar to hewhoisripped.
Click to expand...

COMPLETELY seconded Joe12

Take me for example. My goal is to become a pro bodybuilder, my workouts are within the 2.5-3.5 hour range, and I have an extremely high volume threshold…so for me, peri-workout NEEDS to be optimal or else my progress and/or recovery would suffer
 
I eat carbs around my workouts I find it helps me get a better workout in overall and I feel more energetic than if I lift on no carbs or semi-fasted

For me this is 30-50g pre by an hour or so and often 30-50g more intra with HBCD and I eat post workout with another 50-60g ( from food typically rice/oats and other grains - I don't use a post workout supplemental carb ) trial and error as to what works best for you.

John Meadows has a lot of discussion on this should check out some of his videos
 
BeastFitness said:
Remember that stored fat cells can act as a caloric medium and your most likely utilizing those during your workout

And too many people look at 'glycogen depletion' and not the HOST of other anabolic benefits OF intra and post workout supplementation. Depleting glycogen stores is near the bottom of the list of importance when you have many other hormonal and translocating effects going on
Click to expand...

Utilizing fat as a substrate while training? Yeah, if you're doing some very low intensity training. The RER while training with any sort of intensity is going to deviate to using glucose/glycogen far more heavily than fats. It likely won't get you to 1.0 or above, but to say fats are most likely used is inaccurate.

I personally use between 100-150g of carbs (along with BCAAs) while training and it's a complete difference in volume that I can handle with and without it.
 
Rodja said:
Utilizing fat as a substrate while training? Yeah, if you're doing some very low intensity training. The RER while training with any sort of intensity is going to deviate to using glucose/glycogen far more heavily than fats. It likely won't get you to 1.0 or above, but to say fats are most likely used is inaccurate.
Click to expand...

Reread my post. That was taking into consideration the person was training fasted, not consuming anything intra, etc.
 
Rodja said:
Doesn't matter. It depends on their RER.
Click to expand...

Its completely situational to the individual and their current state of nutritional intake, training, etc.

You make very broad statements and things just don't simply come down to 1 factor, ever. Once again, you only ever comment on a post of mine to become controversial so once again I'll stop responding to your posts because I'm not a fan of the internet arguing back and forth behind a keyboard. But ultimately, you need more experience with actual practical application. It shows in every post.
 
BeastFitness said:
Its completely situational to the individual and their current state of nutritional intake, training, etc.

You make very broad statements and things just don't simply come down to 1 factor, ever. Once again, you only ever comment on a post of mine to become controversial so once again I'll stop responding to your posts because I'm not a fan of the internet arguing back and forth behind a keyboard. But ultimately, you need more experience with actual practical application. It shows in every post.
Click to expand...

Talking about RER and substrate utilization is not controversial. That's straight Ex Phys, which you should know. How long they can sustain a particular RER is another topic (this is where it's individualized), but that's not my point. My point is that without knowing their RER at any given moment, you cannot say what their primary substrate is.

Funny when you have people swinging from your sack that you'll respond, but not when someone points out an inaccuracy with one of your statements. Also, I've been training others from the amateur to the professional level for 12+ years now in a variety of sports. I don't appreciate your snide remarks.
 
BeastFitness said:
Thanks brother!



This is to broad of a statement to make and doesn't apply to everyone. What if someone is a high level athlete and NOT utilizing intraworkout nutrition? Then post workout nutrition becomes more important. And in reverse, if a high level athlete is consuming intraworkout nutrition then post workout does reduce BUT is still beneficial.

It doesn't have to be an either or. Why can't it be an and?
Click to expand...

My point was that Glut4 translocation is elevated up to 24hrs post exercise, and this is after a single acute training episode, so the need to maximise its benefits immediately post exercise is reduced when not training multiple times throughout the day:

Invalid Link Removed

Everyone is different, but the data on it is pretty solid.
 
The Solution said:
I would also add for example Chris aceto is a bigger advocate of pre workout carbs to post workout carbs. His clients eat pow fat muffins and brownies during prep .

John meadows is also very big on peri workout nutrition as Alex stated . Give the body what it wants at the most opportune times for optimal training

Especially for those in a fasted State it may be better to give the body some carbs to
Help fight fatigue during a workout. Not to mention provide a better training environment.

The goal of the athlete is one to consider too. Not everyone has the caloric allotment to shuttle a lot of carbs around or post workout . Some people when dieting have to limit themselves to nothing to get shredded (carb wise)

For the casual gym goer it could be an experiment to see what works best with your body .
Click to expand...

Synthetic anabolics change the metabolic demand for food.

We can't really listen to those who base their nutrition off Anabolics unless you are on anabolics..
 
Jiigzz said:
My point was that Glut4 translocation is elevated up to 24hrs post exercise, and this is after a single acute training episode, so the need to maximise its benefits immediately post exercise is reduced when not training multiple times throughout the day:

Invalid Link Removed

Everyone is different, but the data on it is pretty solid.
Click to expand...

Careful....if you question him or point out a flaw he'll just say you're being controversial. Makes me wonder if he even knows what RER is and how it pertains to substrate usage.
 
kisaj said:
I train fasted and consume 32oz of chocolate milk immediately post workout.
Click to expand...

Sounds delicious

Edit: had to Google 32oz into mls. 1 litre? That would wreck me lol
 
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