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Possible gyno need help

1 bottle? Yes,
caber? I wouldn't use it, but may help with wood. I use cialis 3mg e/d

You are right in 2 things. Letro is great at killing estro and this site is loaded with idiots.

However, OP utilized an estro blocker and still got gyno while using a 19-nor. What's that mean? Geeeee I don't know; using a prolactin agonist like tren or deca could very well be the culprit.


OP, if you were on deca and are considering getting on tren; USE a prolactin antagonist/inhibitor like prami or caber. This is common knowledge. 500 mg of deca is high, brother. Do your own research and you will see the results of high dosage 19-nor. Just google "prolactin sides from 19-nors"
 
You are right in 2 things. Letro is great at killing estro and this site is loaded with idiots.

However, OP utilized an estro blocker and still got gyno while using a 19-nor. What's that mean? Geeeee I don't know; using a prolactin agonist like tren or deca could very well be the culprit.

OP, if you were on deca and are considering getting on tren; USE a prolactin antagonist/inhibitor like prami or caber. This is common knowledge. 500 mg of deca is high, brother. Do your own research and you will see the results of high dosage 19-nor. Just google "prolactin sides from 19-nors"

Was my 3th time doing deca ?
 
Reading all these threads makes me think trenavar isn't worth it...too many extra supps needed other than nolva. Caber/letro/aromasin...all these together is expensive lolz
 
has significantly less shutdown properties than letro. Letro shuts you down. HARD.

letrozole does not shut you down at all. I don't know what bro science website you got your info from, but letrozole is used to treat infertility, and it is one of the best ai's to do this.
there is no shut down, there is however a significant reduction in estrogen, this aids significantly in hpta restoration, increasing LH/FSH, sperm count, as well as reduction/removal of gyno.
to dispute this means A) you do not read scientific literature, B) you are severely misinformed on how the body works.

Yes it is. It binds to the aromatase enzyme. Adex is a receptor blocker. A-sin pwns a-dex.

both adex, aromasin, and letrozole bind with the aromatase enzyme, there by inactivating the enzyme and keeping aromatizable androgens from converting via enzymatic reaction, into estrogen.
neither of them are estrogen receptor blockers, that is what serms do. they are selective estrogen receptor antagonist, and this means they target the estrogen receptor, binding with it preventing estrogen from being able to do so. serms will have none to little interaction with the estrogen receptor.
A serm is also not an anti estrogen, just like an ai is not a receptor blocker.

a serm still allows the aromatase enzyme to bind with androstenedione/testosterone to form estrogen, an aromatase inhibitor prevents this.

regardless of which you use at the beginning of pct, the other should be used to prevent estrogen side effects after ceasing use of the other.

You are right in 2 things. Letro is great at killing estro and this site is loaded with idiots.

However, OP utilized an estro blocker and still got gyno while using a 19-nor. What's that mean? Geeeee I don't know; using a prolactin agonist like tren or deca could very well be the culprit.


OP, if you were on deca and are considering getting on tren; USE a prolactin antagonist/inhibitor like prami or caber. This is common knowledge. 500 mg of deca is high, brother. Do your own research and you will see the results of high dosage 19-nor. Just google "prolactin sides from 19-nors"

gyno is caused from multiple hormonal disruptions, which started with the introduction of supraphysiological dosages of outside androgens.

19-nor androgens cause problems from interaction with the progestin receptor, which will enhance estrogenic side effects.

progestin and prolactin are two different hormones and have two different receptors. all androgens are able to bind with and have various interaction with the progestin receptor.

this site isn't filled with idiots, as most have been educated with data based info via this site, but it is constantly bombarded with new people who learn their info from w/e steroid website and have no clue what they are really talking about.
This isn't your/their fault fully, as you learned the misinformation from someplace, and did not know better. But I am here to open your eyes and lead you to the actual information.

If you do not like this site, that is fine, you can and should leave, it will be more helpful than to continue spreading misinformation to new people like yourself who do not know better.
 
Ou can neg me on your silly reputation points as much as you want but when it comes to the endo system; i will mop the the floor with you when it comes to sheer knowledge.

unlike some on this forum, my reputation points come from knowing what im talking about. I am not buddy buddy with people on here, and will be the first to admit I can be a dcik, but this doesnt' stop me from getting payed for my information from various supplement companies on numerous occasions.

and I will keep you red until you stop spewing nonsense and start learning.
 
Reading all these threads makes me think trenavar isn't worth it...too many extra supps needed other than nolva. Caber/letro/aromasin...all these together is expensive lolz

these are side effects that are to be expected from using supraphysiological dosages of androgens. some androgens are more prone to sides than others, but again, possible with any androgen.
 
these are side effects that are to be expected from using supraphysiological dosages of androgens. some androgens are more prone to sides than others, but again, possible with any androgen.

Reading all this stuff recently makes feel like an idiot for running stuff with an OTC PCT....jeez I'm fking lucky I didn't **** myself up...
 
man, whats up with the bombardment of newbies coming in spewing nonsense. they should at least take some time to read post and search the forums before they post.

I'm starting to wonder though if it's the same person trolling me. I haven't had to actually explain things in like 2 years.

first a guy who doesn't know who Patrick Arnold is, now someone saying letro shuts you down hard.

:lmao:
 
Reading all this stuff recently makes feel like an idiot for running stuff with an OTC PCT....jeez I'm fking lucky I didn't **** myself up...

it happens, my first cycle of 4-androstenediol I did the same thing, but used animal stak 2 as my pct.

doesn't make you an idiot, does make you lucky.
 
it happens, my first cycle of 4-androstenediol I did the same thing, but used animal stak 2 as my pct. doesn't make you an idiot, does make you lucky.

I'm actually red because you negged me a like 1.5 yrs ago for wanting to run an OTC PCT for Mecha/Stano lolz
 
man, whats up with the bombardment of newbies coming in spewing nonsense. they should at least take some time to read post and search the forums before they post.

I'm starting to wonder though if it's the same person trolling me. I haven't had to actually explain things in like 2 years.

first a guy who doesn't know who Patrick Arnold is, now someone saying letro shuts you down hard.

:lmao:

Hahaha. It has been interesting.
Letro shutdown is no joke, though....
 
OP, Jbroscience is saying to trust his face value. I promise you he is wrong. But do yourself a solid and do not count on his or my rhetoric. Research for yourself. It's your body, not his not mine. Think critically, not subjectively like meester broscience. I may not tell you what you want to hear; I'll just tell you what I've learned empirically. Here is where your start on a search engine of your choice:

"Letro shutdown"
"Letro sides"
"Best gyno protocol"
"19-nor prolactin gyno"
"19-nor prolactin inhibition"


You will recognize the importance of non-adherence to shills like jbroscience.
 
oh, my bad, I wondered why that was. well, you seem to be on the right path for researching now.

No worries. It's because I didn't get sides or really lose a lot of gains when I used a OTC PCT...so I was like meh (actually slight hair shredded was the only side). Now I'm thinking wow if I actually used a SERM I might have kept like 100% of the gains.
 
of all the things, the not knowing who pa was just has me flabbergasted (there is a word you don't see used anymore!)

I mean, how could you do any amount of research on androgens, ai's, serms, and not come across him? that's crazy, I mean, even researching the topic of estrogen rebound yesterday, I cam across a post from pa on elite fitness! how old was that! like 03-04'.
 
of all the things, the not knowing who pa was just has me flabbergasted (there is a word you don't see used anymore!) I mean, how could you do any amount of research on androgens, ai's, serms, and not come across him? that's crazy, I mean, even researching the topic of estrogen rebound yesterday, I cam across a post from pa on elite fitness! how old was that! like 03-04'.

Lol I I saw that name pop out when I was researching trenavar. He has an article on it (trenabol but same thing)
 
OP, Jbroscience is saying to trust his face value. I promise you he is wrong. But do yourself a solid and do not count on his or my rhetoric. Research for yourself. It's your body, not his not mine. Think critically, not subjectively like meester broscience. I may not tell you what you want to hear; I'll just tell you what I've learned empirically. Here is where your start on a search engine of your choice:

"Letro shutdown"
"Letro sides"
"Best gyno protocol"
"19-nor prolactin gyno"
"19-nor prolactin inhibition"


You will recognize the importance of non-adherence to shills like jbroscience.

please, if you disagree with anything I said, go an pm or openly creat a thread calling out Patrick Arnold, or William Llewellyn, or Seth Roberts, or even Anthony Roberts.

you WILL NEVER seen any data in the literature about letrozole causing shut down.

Karl Hoffm said:
PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA

Before delving into this subject, I'd like to say first and foremost, that in users of anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS) the first step in combating the development of gynecomastia, or male breast enlargement, is to eliminate the causative agent: the anabolic steroid. Drug-induced gynecomastia almost invariably resolves on its own when a person quits taking the drugs responsible for it, if caught before permanent fibrosis develops. Unfortunately, most AAS users don't want to employ this simple approach, for obvious reasons, so the foregoing will all be under the assumption that a person wants to prevent or treat gyno and still continue steroid use.

In the belief that certain anabolic steroids increase prolactin levels as well as act as agonists at the progesterone receptor, some have advocated the use of antiprolactin agents, like bromocriptine, or progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 to treat AAS related gynecomastia, in lieu of more traditional drugs like tamoxifen.

In truth, the etiology of gynecomastia is unknown and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF-1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to ameliorating the problem.

Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (19). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, are often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: "Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism" (20). However, this is a moot issue in AAS users whose gonadotropin secretion is already blunted.

According to research cited in (20), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels.

The presence of mild hyperprolactinaemia is therefore not uncommon in patients with estrogen excess. Significant primary hyperprolactinaemia, on the other hand, may directly stimulate epithelial cell proliferation in an estrogen-primed breast, causing epithelial cell proliferation and gynaecomastia.

So rather than focusing solely on lowering prolactin levels which may be elevated in users of aromatizing androgens, attacking estrogen should be the first line of action.

GH and IGF-1 are considered critical to the proliferation of mammary tissue. An excellent review of the role played by these hormones, as well as a general overview of gynecomastia can be found here: [lost link; possibly Invalid Link Removed

Since elevated GH and IGF-1 are considered important to the anabolic effect of AAS, it would be impractical and counterproductive to attempt to prevent gynecomastia by blocking GH/IGF.

Progesterone acts in concert with estrogen to promote breast development, and at least part of any role played by synthetic progestins may be to stimulate IGF-1 production in the breast. But again, blocking the action of progesterone or synthetic progestins is not practical. Specific progesterone receptor antagonists like RU-486 block not only the progesterone receptor, but the androgen receptor as well, and have actually been associated with the development of gynecomastia (21). In any case, progesterone is thought to act on the breast to enhance the effects of estrogen (22) so once again, attacking estrogen is the easiest and most logical approach.

DHT gel (Andractim) or a generic knockoff might help as well. DHT is thought to act as an aromatase inhibitor (23) and perhaps compete directly with estrogen for binding at the estrogen receptor (24). DHT has been used in several case reports and controlled trials to successfully treat gynecomastia. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to combine DHT gel with tamoxifen. I would recommend tamoxifen rather than an aromatase inhibitor due to the simple fact that tamoxifen has been widely used in numerous controlled studies to succesfully treat gynecomastia, whereas the evidence to support the efficacy of aromatase inhibitors is scanty at best.

(19) Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1984 Feb;105(2):167-72

(20) Ismail AA, Barth JH.Ann Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607

(21) Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6

(22) Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2

(23) Perel E, Stolee KH, Kharlip L, Blackstein ME, Killinger DW
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Mar;58(3):467-72

(24) Casey RW, Wilson JD.
J Clin Invest 1984 Dec;74(6):2272-8
 
going to just quote his research, as he's already put it together.

tilereaker said:
OK, first things first...the thread title is meant to provoke some discussion. I'm not sold on the idea of "prolactin induced gyno" but I'd like to hear people's explanations of this and find out where they are getting their info from. And I realize that this should probably be in the science section, but I think a lot of people don't look there and more people here will hopefully get something out of this.

Statements about "prolactin induced gyno" often appear in discussions about "progestins" and "progesterone gyno." I feel that there is a lot of confusion about these two hormones and how they relate to gyno formation. I'd like to try to give my perspective on this and why I feel these are incorrect, or at least too simplistic explanations for the potential of a given compound to cause gyno symptoms.

I'm going to start with a discussion of progesterone and "progestins" and then talk a bit about prolactin. Hopefully all this will stimulate a good discussion. Like I said above, I'd like to hear where people are getting their info on "progestin gyno" and "prolactin gyno."


What does progesterone do?

In women, progesterone has multiple roles during pregnancy It causes changes in uterine tissue necessary for implantation and aids in the development of the breast ductal system in preparation for lactation.





Progesterone is a key precursor and steroidogenic intermediate for all bioactive natural steroids and the progesterone receptors A and B are structurally and evolutionarily the closest members of the nuclear receptor superfamily to the androgen receptor. Yet, although progesterone has crucial gestational and lactational roles in female reproductive physiology, it has no well established role in male reproductive physiology apart from a possible role in sperm function (234), possibly via non-genomic rather than a classically genomic mechanism (235). Nevertheless functional nuclear progesterone receptors are expressed in male brain, smooth muscle and reproductive, but not most non-reproductive tissues (236). Synthetic progestins, steroidal structural agonistic analogs of progesterone, are potent inhibitors of pituitary gonadotropin secretion used widely for female contraception and hormonal treatment of disorders such as endometriosis, uterine myoma and mastalgia. Used alone, progestins suppress spermatogenesis but cause androgen deficiency including impotence (237, 238) so androgen replacement is necessary. Non-human primate studies indicate that this is mediated via a central hypothalamic-pituitary site of action rather than direct effects on the testis (239).
Invalid Link Removed
Other effects we are interested in:

1) Antagonism of 5alpha-reductase. One theory is that progesterone competes with testosterone for binding to 5a-R. This would reduce the conversion of T to DHT and thus lower DHT levels. In males, this can be considered a "feminizing effect."

2) Elevates SHBG levels. SHBG binds to testosterone much better than to estrogen. Therefore, increased SHBG levels will decrease free test levels faster than free estrogen. This will create a transient imbalance in the free (active) T/E ratio. (On a side note, this difference in affinity for SHBG also means that estrogen can be released from SHBG "more easily" than test by supplements that are meant to interfere with test-SHBG interactions).

3) Can be converted to androstenedione, which can then be converted to estradiol. Increased levels of progesterone could lead to increased circulating estrogen.

4) In men, excess progesterone can rapidly shut down the HPTA.

5) Down-regulate or up-regulate ER expression? (Haven't found a clear answer to this yet, but it is an important question)


What is a progestin?

From my experience, on this and other boards you can find lots of references to such and such steroid/prosteroid/prohormone being a "progestin" and thus a string of warnings for people to watch out for gyno (which isn't a bad warning under any circumstances, really). However, many of these compounds, at least from what I can tell, are not, in fact progestins, at least in a strictly chemical sense. Here's Patrick Arnold talking about progestins:






Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

most of these componunds people are calling progestins are not really progestins. they share vague chemical similarity with known pharmaceutical progestins and maybe have slight progestational activity but in my expert opinion would NOT fall into the category of progestin. they would be considered in the androgen class.

case in point would be estra-4,9-dien-3,17-dione





Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

[a] "progestin is something that has progestational activity. but the complicated thing is most androgens have a certain degree of progestational activity (albeit minor for most)

its really a subjective call. certainly something like norethindrone from birth control pills can be considered a progestin (even though it has substantial androgenic activity). and then norethandrolone would be considered an androgen (even though it is very close in structure to norethindrone and has substantial progestational activity)

then there is the chemical aspect of what is a progestin

there are two classes of progestins - the C20-keto progestins such as classic progesterone and its derivatives, and the 17alpha-ethynyl estren derivatives such as norethindrone and norgestrel

i would think anything that is not in these structural classes would not be considered a progestin by an authority in this field. the only supplement i am aware of that fit this definition was the stuff that was in the old methyl-1-p (which was a C20-keto derivative)"
So as you can see, one problem is that while most of these compounds cannot be chemically classified as progestins, it is, as PA said, possible that some of them (or some of their metabolites) may have some level of activity at the progesterone receptor. I, for one, would like to see such info for many of these compounds, but I doubt that I could scour PubMed for the next year and be able to compile a halfway decent chart of "compounds and their metabolites that may or may not have progestational activity (that may or may not lead to gyno)."

I feel that for discussion's sake, when talking about compounds we should try to know whether they are progestins or androgens with some progestational activity. For example, nandrolone supposedly is able to activate the PR (progest. receptor) about 1/5th as well as progesterone itself, whereas trenbolone is closer equal activation. Neither of these compounds can be chemically classified as progestins, yet have substantial progestational activity.

(continued below)
 
tilebreaker said:
Gynecomastia?





Almost 25% of all cases of gynaecomastia are currently classified as idiopathic. In this group of patients, circulating sex hormones, SHBG and gonadotrophins are within reference limits. The development of gynaecomastia is attributed to an altered tissue response which may be due to reduction in androgen receptors (75) and/or a local increase in aromatase activity in the breast.(46) Reduction in androgen receptors may be congenital or induced by drugs.

Ann Clin Biochem 2001; 38: 596-607
The effects of progesterone listed above, namely reduced levels of DHT and elevated SHBG may be integral to any role in gyno formation.

Here's another quote that I think is relevant (but I don't know the original source) talks about the contribution of DHT levels:






Originally Posted by purplehaze

"In addition to elevated IGF-1, lowered DHT levels resulting from endogenous testosterone suppression may contribute to gyno from non aromatizing steroids. Gyno is a reported side effect from finasteride use. Some have attributed this to elevated estrogen levels due to the fact that there is more testosterone to be aromatized, since less test is being converted to DHT. Other researches think that DHT has a direct antiestrogenic effect on breast tissue.

Studies have shown that DHT can actually block estrogen from binding to the estrogen receptor in mammary tissue (1). DHT also is an aromatase inhibitor (2). Even more interesting is the fact that transdermal DHT cream has been used successfully to treat gyno (3).

It may be that the estrogen/DHT ratio is more important to the development of gyno than the estrogen/testosterone ratio."
So what may be happening is:

1) Progestin/progesterone ---> increased progesterone receptor signaling (which leads to) --> increased IGF-1 expression ----> stimulation of alveolar hyperplasia (not sure exactly how much this contributes to gyno)

2) Progestin/progesterone ---> increased progesterone receptor signaling--> lowered DHT levels ---> decreased antiestrogenic DHT activity in breast tissue = decreased DHT block of estrogen receptors in breast AND decreased DHT anti-aromatase activity in breast

The question that must be asked for each individual androgen is how much relative progestational activity does it have.

For example if nandrolone blocks DHT formation more so than trenbolone, but trenbolone elevates SHBG more than nandrolone, the relative importance of these effects will determine which compound is more likely to lead to gyno. By most accounts, nandrolone is more effective at this (especially when combined with test, which likely results in elevated estrogen at the same time), suggesting that the effects on DHT are more critical.


Prolactin

Where does prolactin come into this? Prolactin is a pituitary hormone that causes lactation. During pregnancy, it is the combined rise in estrogen and progesterone that contributes to prolactin production, i.e. progesterone causes development of the gland, and estrogen causes accumulation of prolactin that will eventually cause secretions (both of which probably depend on GH and IGF-1 signaling). In women, the drop in estrogen and progesterone after birth basically releases a hold on prolactin induced milk secretion. Here, estrogen and progesterone suppress lactation until after the baby is born; then levels of E and P drop off and prolactin takes over.


Is there a similar thing happening in men taking progestational androgens? In this case it might be that increased E and progestational signaling (if you're on a suppressive compound that also acts on the progesterone receptor) causes gyno formation (and increased prolactin levels), and then when you stop the compound and go into PCT (loss of E and progestational signaling), lactation is possible.

In men,





In general, an increase in effective oestrogen/androgen ratio, irrespective of the cause, may actually stimulate prolactin release and increase circulating concentrations.

Ann Clin Biochem 2001; 38: 596-607
and





Invalid Link Removed

Prolactin stimulates epithelial cell proliferation only in the presence of estrogen and enhances lobulo-alveolar differentiation only with concomitant progesterone.
and with regard to gyno:




Although prolactin receptors have been demonstrated in breast tissue, including gynecomastia [19], hyperprolactinemia probably plays an indirect role in gynecomastia by causing central hypogonadism. Most men with gynecomastia do not have elevated serum prolactin levels, and not all men with hyperprolactinemia develop gynecomastia. Nevertheless, it has been shown in cultured breast cancer cells that prolactin and sex steroid receptors (especially the progesterone receptor [PgR]) may be coexpressed and may cross-regulate each other?s expression [20,21]; acute prolactin treatment produced an increase in PgR and a decrease in AR content. If this were to occur in the breast tissue of hyperprolactinemic men, the resulting increase in PgR expression and decrease in AR expression could promote breast tissue growth and result in gynecomastia.

[19] Gill S, Peston D, Vonderhaar BK, et al. Expression of prolactin receptors in normal, benign, and malignant breast tissue: an immunohistological study. J Clin Pathol 2001;54:956?60.

[20] Ormandy CJ, Hall RE, Manning DL, et al. Coexpression and cross-regulation of the prolactin and sex steroid hormone receptors in breast cancer. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1997;82(11): 3692?9.

[21] Gutzman JH, Miller KK, Schuler LA. Endogenous human prolactin and not exogenous human prolactin induces estrogen receptor a and prolactin receptor expression and increases estrogen responsiveness in breast cancer cells. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 2004;88:69?77.

from: Endocrinol Metab Clin N Am (2007) 36: 497?519

While prolactin and progestins on their own don't seem to cause gyno, is it possible that something similar to the post-pregnancy lactation in women could happen in men taking progestational androgens? In this case it might be that increased E and progestational signaling (if you're on a suppressive compound that also acts on the progesterone receptor) causes gyno formation (and increased prolactin levels), and then when you stop the compound and go into PCT (loss of E and progestational signaling), lactation is possible.

(continued below)

the data is right there for you to dispute. go an find data based studies that disprove those data based studies.
 
I know it's "big cat", but what he is saying is correct. the data supports it.

big cat said:
Nice work. Sorry for the necrobump, but found this information more interesting now than ever. Interesting tidbits you may want to add is that androgens overall decrease prolactin. another is that gyno has always and still is treated solely with anti-estrogen therapy (barring surgery once it gets too big and androgen therapy if the cause is hypogonadism) with no research being done into newer or better ways of treatment. This lends further credence that neither progestins nor prolactin plays any role in gyno in the absence of estrogen, and that standard anti-estrogen therapy (preferably at the receptor to avoid direct drug/ER interactions) should cause gyno to regress in any and all cases.

Its also crucial to remember that nandrolone is in fact estrogenic, estimated at about 60 percent as estrogenic as estradiol itself, because it can activate Estrogen receptor elements through the AR. Neither PR blockers, aromatase inhibitors or estrogen receptor blockers had any significant effect on the estrogenic action of nandrolone. (for references do a search for my post "profiles for the book" in the AAS section) and that this and not some illustrious unproven effect is the reason that it can cause gyno.

50+ years of research and countless blood tests have always shown androgens to decrease prolactin levels, with no account ever of androgens having a positive effect on prolactin of prolactin signalling in healthy tissue in the absence of estrogen.

Weidenbach et al (1980) performed a study in castrated and adrenalectomized rats. These rats showed a severe drop in prolactin levels. Treatment with testosterone did not affect prolactin, but treatment with estradiol drastically increased prolactin. The reason for the drop in prolactin in these rats was therefore likely due to the removal of estrogen-producing organs, clearly demonstrating the estrogen-dependency of prolactin release.

big cat said:
One thing that has been shown to cause an increase in prolactin however :





1: Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2007 Jan;10(1):46-51. Links
Effects of L-arginine supplementation on exercise metabolism.McConell GK.
Department of Physiology, The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria, Australia. [email protected]

PURPOSE OF REVIEW: To describe the influence of acute and chronic administration of L-arginine on metabolism at rest and during exercise. RECENT FINDINGS: There has been substantial examination of the effect of infusion and ingestion of L-arginine at rest. It has been clearly demonstrated that L-arginine administration improves endothelial function in various disease states. In addition, L-arginine infusion at rest increases plasma insulin, growth hormone, glucagon, catecholamines and prolactin. Such hormonal changes affect metabolism. There has, however, been very little examination of the effect of increases in L-arginine availability during exercise. This is important to study as there is preliminary evidence that L-arginine infusion, probably via increases in nitric oxide (NO), alters skeletal-muscle metabolism during exercise. There is a need for further research, especially to understand the mechanisms of how L-arginine affects exercise metabolism and also to determine whether the hormonal responses that occur in response to L-arginine at rest are also present to some extent during exercise. SUMMARY: This line of research may have important therapeutic implications as there are indications that L-arginine augments the effects of exercise training on insulin sensitivity and capillary growth in muscles.
 
OP, do your own research brother. Trust me.

why don't you help him out and post data based information showing what you say it is correct.

you've managed to get my lazy ass up to actually finding and posting the data, which is an enormous feat, but have some respect and post your data.

I'll check back later cause my wife is getting pissed at me spending so much time on the computer, I will be happy to see data based information (these are research studies if you're not sure) showing your points are correct.
 
I am on other boards. Plus I'm working on my capstone for my master's. And I'm about to jump on an aero-plane. And I have to train a client at 0500, before doing air force obligations. Sorry bro.
 
Nolva with an anti-prolactin and letro is the best gyno protocol when a 19-nor is involved. However, would you recommend running nolva on-cycle? Hell; IMHO OP should be coming off-cycle and reducing his gyno before starting tren lol.
 
I am on other boards. Plus I'm working on my capstone for my master's. And I'm about to jump on an aero-plane. And I have to train a client at 0500, before doing air force obligations. Sorry bro.

You seriously sound so proud of yourself.
One of you shows up every few months and insults senior members while bragging constantly.
 
Anybody who is experiencing serious gyno shouldn't be switching tp tren and trying to kill gyno after running adex on the 1st half of a cycle.

Just curious. So in your opinion what should be taken on cycle then PCT if someone is using Trenavar?
 
Any 19-nor, especially tren, should be ran with a HRT dosage of test... Bot high-test as it exponentiates tren sides.

One can argue that a maintenance dose of T3 (25 mics) Can be added since hypothyroidism can occur with 19-nors and hypothyroidism is actually associated in some studies with elevated prolactin. I always recommend Aromasin on-cycle because of it's affinity for LH and FSH and estrogen rebound is uncommon due to its suicide inhibition of the aromatase enzyme. I personally loved prami with tren as my anti-p because I learned to fine taper it and started getting it's levels elevated by incrementally introducing it in my system prior to cycle, though only a small percentage of bros respond well to prami so caber works. I prefer a natty test booster over hcg to keep the boys going though some disagree. As a PCT:

HCG or clomid and most do not discuss toremifene though i love it.
aromasin (start tapering immediately on short esters to a half dose for several weeks and wait 2 weeks on longer esters).... Though this is tricky because some need a full dose Aromasin dose for a month after stopping an AAS stack.
Prami: start tapering a 2 week after stopping short ester tren, 4 weeks after longer esters)
Stronger natty testboosters are an option.
GW at 20 mgs to maintain gains and fight muscle catabolism
MK2866 at 10-15mgs... Though I know many who use a full dose for four weeks and continue natty test booster for 8.
 
You seriously sound so proud of yourself.
One of you shows up every few months and insults senior members while bragging constantly.

It's all good, I'm on all the major forums too, its part of being a rep for c.e.l. and sns, but members like coop, pa, brymaster, henryv, and myself who all have other jobs besides posting on multiple boards find time to share our knowledge.

In between clients right now, still waiting for anything to back up claims.
 
This can be called bro science also. Buuuut, I recently stopped Tren E and as the ester has cleared, my lumps stopped growing and stopped being sensitive. People say prolactin gyno is not lumps but puffy growth. Now from what I experienced, I don't believe this. I was running letro and Test and Trest at small doses. Shouldn't have aromatized much. But with this recent experience, I'm starting to change my thinking about what exactly prolactin gyno is. But it is definitely a real concern.
 
Any 19-nor, especially tren, should be ran with a HRT dosage of test... Bot high-test as it exponentiates tren sides. One can argue that a maintenance dose of T3 (25 mics) Can be added since hypothyroidism can occur with 19-nors and hypothyroidism is actually associated in some studies with elevated prolactin. I always recommend Aromasin on-cycle because of it's affinity for LH and FSH and estrogen rebound is uncommon due to its suicide inhibition of the aromatase enzyme. I personally loved prami with tren as my anti-p because I learned to fine taper it and started getting it's levels elevated by incrementally introducing it in my system prior to cycle, though only a small percentage of bros respond well to prami so caber works. I prefer a natty test booster over hcg to keep the boys going though some disagree. As a PCT: HCG or clomid and most do not discuss toremifene though i love it. aromasin (start tapering immediately on short esters to a half dose for several weeks and wait 2 weeks on longer esters).... Though this is tricky because some need a full dose Aromasin dose for a month after stopping an AAS stack. Prami: start tapering a 2 week after stopping short ester tren, 4 weeks after longer esters) Stronger natty testboosters are an option. GW at 20 mgs to maintain gains and fight muscle catabolism MK2866 at 10-15mgs... Though I know many who use a full dose for four weeks and continue natty test booster for 8.

Expensive as fuk...
 
It's all good, I'm on all the major forums too, its part of being a rep for c.e.l. and sns, but members like coop, pa, brymaster, henryv, and myself who all have other jobs besides posting on multiple boards find time to share our knowledge.

In between clients right now, still waiting for anything to back up claims.

Just got off plane. Nope definitely not wasting time proving to you that letro has the potential to drop e levels into single digis, thus countering libido and bone calcification. Basic knowledge.
 
This can be called bro science also. Buuuut, I recently stopped Tren E and as the ester has cleared, my lumps stopped growing and stopped being sensitive. People say prolactin gyno is not lumps but puffy growth. Now from what I experienced, I don't believe this. I was running letro and Test and Trest at small doses. Shouldn't have aromatized much. But with this recent experience, I'm starting to change my thinking about what exactly prolactin gyno is. But it is definitely a real concern.

Agreed. The only time I ever got lumps I was running pharm grade anastrazole with deca. It was one little lump but I stopped cycle and threw letro at it. Then it subsided with prami/nolva/letro combo.

You know how it is man. I have a friend who puffs and drinks on cycle, was running tren and high test and didn't run any support and carried an 8% bodyfat... All for mens league softball..... And by friend I mean guy who I was tight with in high school, years ago who keeps in contact. Then you hear horror stories about bros running gratuitous HRT doses of 250 mgs getting lumps.


There are other guys who run proviron with high test with no AI.... No problems.


As finite as the science is, there are infinite scenarios depending upon how well your genetics handles exogenous hormones.
 
Just got off plane. Nope definitely not wasting time proving to you that letro has the potential to drop e levels into single digis, thus countering libido and bone calcification. Basic knowledge.

That isn't shut down. Lmao, you don't even know your terminology, or your changing your story because you can't find any data to back up your claim that "letro shuts you down hard" (because none exist)

Everyone knows letro wipes out estrogen to almost none, this why it works so well for its numerous clinical applications.

But shut you down? No, it has no effect on htpa function.
 
That isn't shut down. Lmao, you don't even know your terminology, or your changing your story because you can't find any data to back up your claim that "letro shuts you down hard" (because none exist)

Everyone knows letro wipes out estrogen to almost none, this why it works so well for its numerous clinical applications.

But shut you down? No, it has no effect on htpa function.

It shuts down your dick bro. "Or your* changing your story....."


*you're
 
It shut's down your dick bro. "Or your* changing your story....."

*you're

I've been very clear on what I was referring to regarding shut down.

I've never experienced limp dick with letro because I've always ran cialis and inhibit p with it.

Too much or too little estrogen will have a negative impact on libido. All aromatase inhibitors have this potential side effect.
 
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