Phosphatidic Acid study

[Rockzilla]

Is this the usual referred study in which people used PA? This study shows no increases compared to placebo in RESISTANCE TRAINED men of strength, muscle, and lean body mass.

It is located on nrcresearchpress.com I can't post the link.

 

[Tylerclee]

The most important question is how does PA affect you.

 

[Rockzilla]

I mean, I seriously think my muscles are fuller and I have had better cognitive functions since being on it. But I really think that studies like these that don't find a benedit should take precedence over what I feel.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

You are a smart man then PA has only been shown effective when tested by people with some sort of "stake" in the outcome. The two studies that were non-bias third party - found no positive outcome. And Wilson has lost my interest, personally - when you have almost every major "Who's Who" in the legit research community questioning his stuff (HMB-FA Study)....

On the flip side - the stuff is so damn cheap *and* a healthy fat source - you're probably spending your money on a lot more useless things already.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I mean, I seriously think my muscles are fuller and I have had better cognitive functions since being on it. But I really think that studies like these that don't find a benedit should take precedence over what I feel.

As far as I know, it's only the one study that showed no improvements above placebo, while the previous studies showed benefits, although there is the issue of funding in some other studies. The new study isn't perfect either though, as training volume seemed to be unusually low. Either way, I don't think that one study puts the "nail in the coffin" for PA quite yet, especially since it's something that's safe and pretty cheap from the lecithin granules, seems to be generally healthy, and has good user feedback.

 

[jameschoi]

I bought a can for ten bucks yesterday. Hope this works.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

I like it, it's cheap and I def feel it at higher doses. Don't see a reason to remove it from my diet, considering the other benefits. I will continue to follow along.

Old_Guy: you've been on a mission lately. But, I ain't mad about it.

 

[jameschoi]

I like it, it's cheap and I def feel it at higher doses. Don't see a reason to remove it from my diet, considering the other benefits. I will continue to follow along.

Old_Guy: you've been on a mission lately. But, I ain't mad about it.

How much do you take prior to a workout.

 

[rugger48]

The most important question is how does PA affect you.

Thats not completely true now is it?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You are a smart man then PA has only been shown effective when tested by people with some sort of "stake" in the outcome. The two studies that were non-bias third party - found no positive outcome. And Wilson has lost my interest, personally - when you have almost every major "Who's Who" in the legit research community questioning his stuff (HMB-FA Study)....

On the flip side - the stuff is so damn cheap *and* a healthy fat source - you're probably spending your money on a lot more useless things already.

Didn't one of the two studies that didn't show results use a good bit less than 750mg though? It wouldn't surprise me that it didn't work, especially since, anecdotally, higher doses seem to work better, and 750mg is viewed as the "minimum" dose. Although all the positive studies did have some sort of "funding" or "involvement," they weren't ALL Wilson studies if I recall, which is a good thing, haha. As you said, lecithin granules are cheap and have other health benefits, so aren't going to be a real waste of money either.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Didn't one of the two studies that didn't show results use a good bit less than 750mg though? It wouldn't surprise me that it didn't work, especially since, anecdotally, higher doses seem to work better, and 750mg is viewed as the "minimum" dose. Although all the positive studies did have some sort of "funding" or "involvement," they weren't ALL Wilson studies if I recall, which is a good thing, haha. As you said, lecithin granules are cheap and have other health benefits, so aren't going to be a real waste of money either.

But does 750mg matter - if it was Wilson who tested that amount? Did he test less than 750 mg (which was 400mg Pre and 350 mg Post or Am/PM on non-training days) too? I can't recall.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

But does 750mg matter - if it was Wilson who tested that amount? Did he test less than 750 mg (which was 400mg Pre and 350 mg Post or Am/PM on non-training days) too? I can't recall.

I think it was also non-Wilson, but still "funded" studies that used 750mg as well, and perhaps the 750mg came from what was found to be effective in rodents once converted? It seems very likely that less PA would be less effective, no? Especially with so many anecdotal reports of higher doses being more effective.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

But does 750mg matter - if it was Wilson who tested that amount? Did he test less than 750 mg (which was 400mg Pre and 350 mg Post or Am/PM on non-training days) too? I can't recall.

We discussed this in the big PA thread. Here's links to the studies:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/243179-im-phosphatidic-acid-99.html#post5647205
It looks like 2 of the 3 studies have Wilson's name somewhere, although it's at the end of the long list, not the beginning like it is for his HMB studies. As for the lower dose study, it only used 250-375mg PA, that's 1/3 to 1/2 of the 750mg dose, so it's not really surprising that it didn't really do much IMO, there has to be some minimum dose with everything for it to "work." Look at the context, assuming 4-7% PA in lecithin granules, 250mg is only 3.57-6.25g, or roughly 1/2 to 4/5 of a tablespoon. That's a very small amount. Even the 750mg PA comes out to 1.5-2.5 tbsp of the lecithin granules. I don't see any reason to bother with less than 750mg PA, especially if you're getting it from lecithin granules. I understand the purpose of testing lower doses though, especially with the higher cost of concentrated PA, but for most of our purposes, I'd go with at least 750mg, so the 250-375mg study isn't really all that relevant IMO.

 

[kisaj]

Interesting topic for me as I was flamed for calling it out in the past. All I saw from it personally and with people that were trying it out was bloat. No strength improvement, no comp benefits, no endurance benefits, just a "fuller" look.

 

[jameschoi]

Interesting topic for me as I was flamed for calling it out in the past. All I saw from it personally and with people that were trying it out was bloat. No strength improvement, no comp benefits, no endurance benefits, just a "fuller" look.

I just wasted ten bucks then lol

 

[ws65]

Time for the call out to our resident PA expert who has used this before and given his feedback...Uncle Danes, you are needed here. Unless you are working out often and hard, you will receive no mTOR benefits from PA. But as previously stated, it is a healthy source of fat and some other health benefits that escape me at the moment.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

What constitutes working out hard? I'd like to think I train pretty damn hard the four days a week, I do.

 

[ws65]

I would classify that as working out hard

 

[Nac]

I notice significant muscle fullness @1500mg per day. No bloat, and not much else either. Any other benefits are so subtle I find they get lost in the noise.

 

[Danes]

Interesting topic for me as I was flamed for calling it out in the past. All I saw from it personally and with people that were trying it out was bloat. No strength improvement, no comp benefits, no endurance benefits, just a "fuller" look.

I find this new PA study boring and it really tell us "nothing"
1. Look at the Training volume. To low! (Set ++).

I will post this again which is written of a good scientist who really know what he is saying and here is what he mean about new PA study:

"It's a 3 days a week training schedule using something that upregulates mTOR for which results are not going to be all the acute in the first place. Useless other than pointing out that recreationally training people will not benefit from it.".

PA is one of the best natural compounds where most of people had nice benefits from it.

Bloat from concentrated PA product or Soy Lecithin granules ?

 

[kboxer7]

You are a smart man then PA has only been shown effective when tested by people with some sort of "stake" in the outcome. The two studies that were non-bias third party - found no positive outcome. And Wilson has lost my interest, personally - when you have almost every major "Who's Who" in the legit research community questioning his stuff (HMB-FA Study)....

On the flip side - the stuff is so damn cheap *and* a healthy fat source - you're probably spending your money on a lot more useless things already.

The bigger issue is the way in which muscle mass was measured, and even more importantly the duration of the study. Increasing mTOR (and by association hopefully protein synthesis) is going to take a LONG TIME to show measurable results. Its the kind of thing you'd want to run for a couple months minimum and then measure.

Muscle fullness I personally believe is greatly enhanced within 2 weeks. Not muscle mass, but fullness due to (likely) increased glycogen retention etc. brought about from extra volume. This is a personal observation but I've replicated this studying my measurements on 3 occasions now with just SL as my PA source.

#JustMy2Cents

 

[jameschoi]

The bigger issue is the way in which muscle mass was measured, and even more importantly the duration of the study. Increasing mTOR (and by association hopefully protein synthesis) is going to take a LONG TIME to show measurable results. Its the kind of thing you'd want to run for a couple months minimum and then measure.

Muscle fullness I personally believe is greatly enhanced within 2 weeks. Not muscle mass, but fullness due to (likely) increased glycogen retention etc. brought about from extra volume. This is a personal observation but I've replicated this studying my measurements on 3 occasions now with just SL as my PA source.

#JustMy2Cents

How much did you take each day to get that fullness.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

What constitutes working out hard? I'd like to think I train pretty damn hard the four days a week, I do.

See the big PA thread. I gave links to the studies, and tried to give some more information on the studies, such as training protocol, subject characteristics, etc. This new study that didn't show significant effects was pretty low frequency and volume. Here's from an old post of mine:

Looking at this, the dose of PA was the same in all the studies (750mg/day), and the timing was pretty consistent with other studies when they specified the timing, so that's not an issue. The inclusion of hydrolyzed collagen protein taken post-workout is also similar to other studies, so that's not really an issue either, and does well to replicate the other studies. The 3 sessions per week is also similar to the other studies, which used 3-4 sessions per week, but it seems that the total volume per week is a good bit less than the other two studies that actually specified this information (I couldn't find the information for Study 3).

Where Study 1 involved doing chest exercises 2x per week, with a total volume of 14 sets per week, Study 2 also hit chest 2x per week. I couldn't find the number of sets, but it involved 3 exercises on one day, and 2 on the other. Compare that with the NEW study that only hit chest 1x per week, with a total of 8 sets per week, from a total of two exercises.

For legs, it seems that Study 1, 2, and NEW all hit legs 2x per week, but Study 1 had 26 total sets per week compared to only 16 in NEW, and Study 2 had 4 exercises one day and 2 the other, while NEW only had 2 exercises on both days.

It seems that this new study has less volume (and less frequency at times) than the other studies. Maybe that's a contributing factor? I'll go through and check the gains made in each study to see if the studies with more volume noted greater increases than the new study with lower volume.

Here's some info on the baseline lifts and progress made during the 8 weeks (I rounded the baseline numbers to the nearest 5 for some reason):

I know that the new study measured muscle thickness, but I really would have liked to see LBM measured.

 

[pbandy1]

IMO it is a supplement to skip until more conclusive studies are done. Money better spent elsewhere.

 

[kboxer7]

How much did you take each day to get that fullness.

I'd need to look back at my logs/notes but iirc it ranged from 3-5 tbsp per day. At 3 tbsp it was a single dose, at 4-5 I split it into two doses.

 

[Danes]

IMO it is a supplement to skip until more conclusive studies are done. Money better spent elsewhere.

ArA and PA are one of few compound that worked for most guys.

http://m.ajpendo.physiology.org/content/early/2017/01/26/ajpendo.00230.2016.abstract

 

[Rockzilla]

I started with fearns at 4Tbsp a day then transitioned into Tr1umph and a tablespoon of fearns a day. Fearns is about to run out so I'm am going from 1200 to 900.

Like I said I feel like I experienced more muscle fullness but since I was losing weight this could have been attributed to actually being more lean and being more insulin sensitive.

 

[bdcc]

Shameless plug, I made a video discussing all phosphatidic acid research to date (human trials measuring muscle growth, not acute trials) and their research funding. Easy summary for anyone interested.

https://youtu.be/fcU62RHX0hU

 

[Danes]

Shameless plug, I made a video discussing all phosphatidic acid research to date (human trials measuring muscle growth, not acute trials) and their research funding. Easy summary for anyone interested.

https://youtu.be/fcU62RHX0hU

I mean PA has potential but it need to be dosed higher than recommended.
I personaly felt nothing from standard dose such as 750mgm
One of few ingredients that really helped me achieve more results than without it.

I also love the glycogen retention effect from it. (Always adding bodyweight) without eating extra calories. And I was using caps (concentrated PA product such as Mediator)

 

[ma70]

IMO it is a supplement to skip until more conclusive studies are done. Money better spent elsewhere.

It's like 10 bucks a month.