PH Test Base questions? Trest, Stano-TD, 4-AD, Demacrine?`

[ee09]

I have been trying to research test base for my next PH cycle that will start late October. Trest seems to have good reviews for strength and libido, but also aromatizes bad from what i've read. Comparing cost trest also seems a little more cost effective than Stano-TD due to the amount of bottles you would need for a cycle.

My first cycle finished up about 3 weeks ago (still in PCT). It was epistane (30/30/30/45/45/60) and lethargy kicked in pretty bad for a good portion of the cycle. Libido dropped pretty good to. Was able to perform fine, just no desire for it.

My next cycle is going to be DMZ. I have aromasin on hand as well as clomid, and nolva, so I am prepared for next PCT and combatting estrogen if I did go with trest. What are thoughts on Stano-TD? Is it more effective than the oral epi-andro? Sorry for all the questions but there is a lot of contradicting information out there, trying to get it all in one place.

 

[medinacirilo]

Which 4-AD would you plan on running? Because I LOVED AlphaGainz TD! I've never used Stano-TD or Trest, but I sure would like to

 

[nubioso]

Maybe it was just me, but I'm not sure why people think Trest makes a great test base. Paired it with Msten. Within 15 minutes of taking my first dose I could tell it just shut me down hard lol. Definitely wasn't like a previous Msten/Epiandro run. It's a 19-nor so it's going to be harsh. Yes, I had all the proper ancillaries on hand. Nolva & exem, Blockade, Ar1macare pro, etc...

I think if you use trest, you'd better still use something like 4-andro that actually converts to test otherwise you'll probably run into the same issue as you did with DMZ. I know that feeling, can do just fine, but really have no desire....it's odd.

Can't answer your question about the oral epi vs TD Stano....ultimately, epi converts to stano, so that conversion process may make the ultimate amount of stano superior in the TD. As a TD though, the bioavailability goes down, so it could be one of those '6 of one, half dozen of the other' type deals.

Either way, just remember Epi/Stano are DHT based so more androgenic than anabolic I believe. They would definitely assist with energy and libido without the bloat that 4-andro can cause as it's a wet compound.

I will end saying that I am still learning and am by far, no expert. This is just what I've picked up along the way, but if someone comes along to correct any of what I said, I'm more than willing to admit mistake and learn better info.

 

[ee09]

Which 4-AD would you plan on running? Because I LOVED AlphaGainz TD! I've never used Stano-TD or Trest, but I sure would like to

I planned on using the AlphaGainz. Only reason I was considering trest was the cost being cheaper but I think I'd rather go with something less suppressive

 

[ee09]

Thanks nubioso . You pretty much confirmed what I was already thinking. This will only be my 2nd cycle so I am trying to learn everything I can. Heard some good things about trest but maybe later on down the road

I think I'll probably end up going with oral epiandro but still like too best other opinions if anyone else has any?

 

[PhutureGenome]

Well, against popular belief, testosterone doesn't have any magical properties or specific action outside of the AR that makes it special.
What makes something a good base for a cycle is that it has to be able to aromatize and therefore partially convert into estrogen.
The reason why people have issues running compounds without test such as low libido, bad skin, and more is because whatever compounds they're running don't aromatize. In other words, their estrogen is tanked and that's not a good thing.
So essentially, yes, trest or any other compound that aromatizes will make a good base for a cycle.
Just a warning though, if you're using trest purely for a base then careful with the dosing, as it can be very touchy, due to its ability to aromatize very heavily.
Having an AI such as Aromasin on hand will be a very good idea. Possibly some nolva too in case you are particularly gyno-prone.

 

[nubioso]

Well, against popular belief, testosterone doesn't have any magical properties or specific action outside of the AR that makes it special.
What makes something a good base for a cycle is that it has to be able to aromatize and therefore partially convert into estrogen.
The reason why people have issues running compounds without test such as low libido, bad skin, and more is because whatever compounds they're running don't aromatize. In other words, their estrogen is tanked and that's not a good thing.
So essentially, yes, trest or any other compound that aromatizes will make a good base for a cycle.
Just a warning though, if you're using trest purely for a base then careful with the dosing, as it can be very touchy, due to its ability to aromatize very heavily.
Having an AI such as Aromasin on hand will be a very good idea. Possibly some nolva too in case you are particularly gyno-prone.

yeah, but having high estrogen and zero test isn't a recipe for success either. It's not that test is magical, it's that trest aromatizes heavily into estrogen, kills all test production, AND increases prolactin. It's a 3 fold punch into ruining your nuts, so you'd be better off having a real test base on hand. IE something that converts into testosterone and or test itself.

"Well, have your caber on hand and AI"...yeah, that still leaves low test. It's a test base because it provides testosterone which then also aromatizes. I wouldn't just say 'anything that aromatizes' is considered a test base

This lists derivatives, here we're mainly noting test:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_androgens/anabolic_steroids

 

[mike33511]

Believe it or not, testosterone would be your best option!

In lieu of that, I would go with 4-andro, as it converts to test. Vicious Labs Freak Show is going to be the best value you can find for 4-andro, as it has the best price per gram of the compound. One bottle will be enough to run 300mg for 45 days, so it should last you your entire cycle. It comes out to only $54 with a 10% off code.

DMZ and 4-andro would be an awesome cycle.

 

[ee09]

nubioso PhutureGenome thanks for the input.

Nubioso, what dose of trest were you taking? Do ever if you think it could be used in a low dose as test base or odd the short half life a problem when trying too use that way?

I'm 35 and my body doesn't seem predisposed too gyno (always fairly lean) but this will only be my second cycle and trying to minimize sides as much as possible. Right now I'm really leaning away from trest but still researching

 

[ee09]

Believe it or not, testosterone would be your best option!

In lieu of that, I would go with 4-andro, as it converts to test. Vicious Labs Freak Show is going to be the best value you can find for 4-andro, as it has the best price per gram of the compound. One bottle will be enough to run 300mg for 45 days, so it should last you your entire cycle. It comes out to only $54 with a 10% off code.

DMZ and 4-andro would be an awesome cycle.

Awesome! Thanks Mike i am definitely going to check out that deal. Not trying to be cheap, but looking for best value.

Where are you looking too get that deal? You ordering straight from vicious labs? I'm about to do a search now. If this is against board rules I will edit

 

[nubioso]

Awesome! Thanks Mike i am definitely going to check out that deal. Not trying to be cheap, but looking for best value.

Where are you looking too get that deal? You ordering straight from vicious labs? I'm about to do a search now. If this is against board rules I will edit

Mike may have already done this, but I'll send you a PM ee09. Mike has also given me solid information over at vicious labs. His knowledge is years beyond mine for sure!

 

[ee09]

mike33511

Would you recommend the freak show (4-dhea) over the psycho circus (r-dhea)? I'm definitely ordering one of these. Looking at this thread below seems like the androsterone would be good too

 

[ee09]

Edit: can't post link but it was another thread in anabolic minds titled:


The difference between DHEA 1-DHEA 4-DHEA R-DHEA and 7-DHEA

 

[mike33511]

mike33511

Would you recommend the freak show (4-dhea) over the psycho circus (r-dhea)? I'm definitely ordering one of these. Looking at this thread below seems like the androsterone would be good too

Yes, the 4-DHEA should be your first choice, as it converts to testosterone. You could definitely add Psycho Circus (androsterone) or Dark Carnival (epiandrosterone) if funds permit.

 

[nubioso]

Yeah, they all do different things. Like Mike said, the 4-andro is the only one of those that converts to Testosterone. The others convert to DHT. Androsterone and Epiandrosterone are 1 difference away from being the same. One is the alpha isomer one is the beta. All 3 compliment each other well.

Androsterone has anti-estrogen effects, the epiandrosterone does not from what I understand. Both convert to stanolone ultimately.

I plan on running a 4, R-andro, Epiandro run some time in the near future myself. The R-andro should help negate the estrogen from the 4-andro. Epiandro will provide the energy boost for PWO, Andro provides the calming more "alpha" feel from what I've heard people say. I've only used Epiandro myself and the energy is indeed true as well as aggression, and I don't mean that you want to get into fights, just hit the weights.

 

[JahCure]

What about using an oral cyclo 4-ad as a test base? It's not going to be as cost effective as 4-andro but should be stronger

 

[ee09]

Yeah, they all do different things. Like Mike said, the 4-andro is the only one of those that converts to Testosterone. The others convert to DHT. Androsterone and Epiandrosterone are 1 difference away from being the same. One is the alpha isomer one is the beta. All 3 compliment each other well.

Androsterone has anti-estrogen effects, the epiandrosterone does not from what I understand. Both convert to stanolone ultimately.

I plan on running a 4, R-andro, Epiandro run some time in the near future myself. The R-andro should help negate the estrogen from the 4-andro. Epiandro will provide the energy boost for PWO, Andro provides the calming more "alpha" feel from what I've heard people say. I've only used Epiandro myself and the energy is indeed true as well as aggression, and I don't mean that you want to get into fights, just hit the weights.

Appreciate all the help. I'm definitely ordering the 4-andro but I want to try the others in the future.

I do have a bottle of epistane laying around and I started a thread a while back about it, but what would you think about bridging dmz to epistane while using 4-andro as a base? I may just save epistane for later but if I did use it, maybe something like: (aware both are methyls but only combining 2 weeks)

DMZ (16mg pills)
32/32/32/32/0/0

Epistane
0/0/20/20/30/40

4-andro
300/300/300/300/300/300

With clomid, nolva, and aromasin on hand. Probably use 12.5 mg aromasin e3d if any sides from estrogen.

 

[nubioso]

I think you'd be fine. Even if it's "Just" 2 weeks, I strongly recommend you run something that has TUDCA with it for your on cycle support. 500mg minimum. If you already have your on cycle support you're set with and it doesn't have TUDCA in it, that's fine, just go grab a bottle of TUDCA by itself.

2 oral methyl's will put a hurting on your liver for sure...I know, because when I was very first learning, I mistakenly did it with zero TUDCA and liver values came back fuuuuuuukked lol. I was running Blocked, then Ar1macare Pro.

I'd rather err on the side of caution and make sure your liver does okay. You only get one. =P

 

[ee09]

Yah I'm still in the fence about running epistane together. I know those can be tough. I do have tudca on hand as well, but regardless I may just run dmz and save epistane too add to a non methyl later. Still want too keep researching

 

[nubioso]

Yeah, or you could up the dosage of each and just do 3 weeks DMZ, 3 weeks Epistane so you're not worrying about crossover. Or, start higher and taper down quicker and still have a cross over but at smaller dosages.

Something like:

DMZ (16mg pills)
48/48/48/0/0/0

Epistane
0/0/0/30/40/45

-OR-

DMZ (16mg pills)
48/48/32/16/0/0

Epistane
0/0/10/20/30/40


Ultimately though, you're screwing up your liver no matter what. There's also the mind set of, you're nitpicking the amount of damage that's going to be there no matter what you do lol. Like I've heard many pros say....you gotta step in knowing the risks and be willing to accept them.

 

[ee09]

nubioso yah I do like these layouts. I wanted 4 weeks off epistane if I do bridge since first run with epi took 2.5-3 weeks to kick in.

Would it be a bad idea too stretch this out too 7 weeks? That too much for a liver? Maybe

Dmz
32/48/48/32/0/0/0

Epi
0/0/0/10/30/40/40

Maybe through week 4 lower dmz to 16second half of week and raise epi too 20

Not trying to push the limits or anything just seeing what is a reasonable risk to take lol.

 

[nubioso]

Well, as I'm sure you've read a million times around here when it comes to these things. Everyone is different. There's always going to be that guy that says he ran 1g of DMZ and bathed in epistane and "Had perfect liver values" etc....

Take a look at this thread man, I've got it bookmarked:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/277121-dosing-guide-popular.html

Here's another one with mostly the same information, but a couple others that aren't on the first.

http://www.anabolicandrogenicresearch.com/pro-hormone-compound-info.html

Lastly.....like someone once said to me when I was getting really technical about what to pick and dosing etc....etc... "You're missing the forrest, looking for trees."

Zoom out and look at the big picture. Just pick whatever dosing schedule you can most easily stick to and do it. There isn't going to be any perfect combo to avoid liver damage and nobody can even begin to guess what will or will not do more damage, unless the question is "If I took DMZ, or drank a glass of water, which will hurt my liver?" lol

Would it really help if someone random person on the internet said "Yeah dude, top 1 for sure." Nah.....just pick one and see, that's how you learn. Plus I could throw a wrench in it and say "Nah dude, 2 weeks is fine for Epiandro, just get to it"....which honestly, it really should be for that particular compound. =P

Good luck, brotha!

 

[ee09]

Thanks for the links and all the advice! You've been a huge help! I get bogged down in the details sometimes for sure

I will continue too research up until I start my next cycle and hopefully log this one. I'll tag you in it once I get going in case you're interested

 

[nubioso]

Sounds good man. Indeed, tag away.