Performance on HCG vs TRT

living2die, here is a chart which supports the idea of excess pregnenalone converting to progesterone:

Invalid Link Removed

It makes a lot of sense that adrenal support formulas contain preg since it helps support cortisol when the adrenal glands can not produce enough. Someone with adrenal fatigue will have PREG heavily converting to PROG.
 
Thanks G-Pump.
So does hCG stimulate pregnenolone production (via P450scc pathway) in the testes, or the other various manufacturing sites in the body (adrenal gland, etc.), or at both sites? When hCG works as LH to stimulate testes to produce T, do the Leydig cells in the testes produce straight T, or does the hCG stimulate the production of Pregnenolone in the testes, and through the hormonal cascade, eventually the Preg convert into T through the natural synthesis of chemical reactions?

I wish we had some evidence, confirmed through reliable hormonal panel testing, that oral Pregnenolone increases increases Preg itself, and doesnt, as in your case, be synthesized into other hormones along the hormonal channel, (i.e. PROG).

Does anyone know the bioavailability of PREG? cant seem to find it anywhere.


Gutterpump said:
living2die, here is a chart which supports the idea of excess pregnenalone converting to progesterone:

Invalid Link Removed

It makes a lot of sense that adrenal support formulas contain preg since it helps support cortisol when the adrenal glands can not produce enough. Someone with adrenal fatigue will have PREG heavily converting to PROG.
Click to expand...
 
living2die said:
Thanks G-Pump.
So does hCG stimulate pregnenolone production (via P450scc pathway) in the testes, or the other various manufacturing sites in the body (adrenal gland, etc.), or at both sites? When hCG works as LH to stimulate testes to produce T, do the Leydig cells in the testes produce straight T, or does the hCG stimulate the production of Pregnenolone in the testes, and through the hormonal cascade, eventually the Preg convert into T through the natural synthesis of chemical reactions?

I wish we had some evidence, confirmed through reliable hormonal panel testing, that oral Pregnenolone increases increases Preg itself, and doesnt, as in your case, be synthesized into other hormones along the hormonal channel, (i.e. PROG).

Does anyone know the bioavailability of PREG? cant seem to find it anywhere.
Click to expand...

FWIW, it seems to me that more often than not, taking oral preg doesn't increase preg serum levels in a significant way. That said, Crisler claims preg serum test is unreliable and worthless. Mariano apparently disagrees, as he routinely orders it.

I didn't notice any effect from oral preg and suspect that it's played a part in my jacked E2 levels. I suspect the same may be true of the oral DHEA I am taking, 50 mgs. sustained release.

I feel like using these supplements is a science experiment, trial and error. It'd be nice to arrive at a better understanding. Based on how many times living2die has tee'd up the issue on the various board, without a real cogent response, I am not holding my breath for any clear resolution. But I encourage him to continue asking the questions.

Good luck.
 
The deeper I dig, the more lost i become. haha. We all want to find that 'fountain of youth' where we function at the highest level of performance that our bodies are capable of. The Ponce de Leon complex.

Jinxie,
How much oral PREG were you taking? In reference to the hormone chart, would you say that by backtracking and analyzing the 'smoking gun,' (your high e2 levels), we can assume that your pregnenolone levels must have been amped up at some point along the hormonal cascade, but your body is wired to convert excess pregnenolone into hormones along the river, which led to your jacked e2 levels by way of conversion to estradiol?

jinxie said:
FWIW, it seems to me that more often than not, taking oral preg doesn't increase preg serum levels in a significant way. That said, Crisler claims preg serum test is unreliable and worthless. Mariano apparently disagrees, as he routinely orders it.

I didn't notice any effect from oral preg and suspect that it's played a part in my jacked E2 levels. I suspect the same may be true of the oral DHEA I am taking, 50 mgs. sustained release.

I feel like using these supplements is a science experiment, trial and error. It'd be nice to arrive at a better understanding. Based on how many times living2die has tee'd up the issue on the various board, without a real cogent response, I am not holding my breath for any clear resolution. But I encourage him to continue asking the questions.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
 
living2die said:
The deeper I dig, the more lost i become. haha. We all want to find that 'fountain of youth' where we function at the highest level of performance that our bodies are capable of. The Ponce de Leon complex.

Jinxie,
How much oral PREG were you taking? In reference to the hormone chart, would you say that by backtracking and analyzing the 'smoking gun,' (your high e2 levels), we can assume that your pregnenolone levels must have been amped up at some point along the hormonal cascade, but your body is wired to convert excess pregnenolone into hormones along the river, which led to your jacked e2 levels by way of conversion to estradiol?
Click to expand...

Was taking 100 mgs. If I ever take it again, it will be a transdermal, as HAN always recommends.

Dude, if I were you, I'd be on the couch eating doughnuts, after finishing a bucket of fried chicken. It may not make me younger, but it would make me damn happy, as I wouldn't have to worry about where the calories would be headed.

You must be blessed with a high metabolism and/or you are eating extremely well.
 
thank you Jinxie, i am flattered by your remarks : ) everyone in my family is skinny. my dad is 64, and at 5'10'' 155lbs is just about as lean and toned i am. my mom is 61 and has ran multiple marathons in her lifetime, and not just your weekend warrior i might add...she qualified for the boston marathon etc, with a p.r. around 3 hrs. because of my family's fat phobia, gaining weight simply was avoided at all costs. nurture vs nature definatley became intermingled in that respect. the apple does not fall far from the tree...

if you want more pics, i will gladly submit, no homo lol




jinxie said:
Was taking 100 mgs. If I ever take it again, it will be a transdermal, as HAN always recommends.

Dude, if I were you, I'd be on the couch eating doughnuts, after finishing a bucket of fried chicken. It may not make me younger, but it would make me damn happy, as I wouldn't have to worry about where the calories would be headed.

You must be blessed with a high metabolism and/or you are eating extremely well.
Click to expand...
 
living2die said:
thank you Jinxie, i am flattered by your remarks : ) everyone in my family is skinny. my dad is 64, and at 5'10'' 155lbs is just about as lean and toned i am. my mom is 61 and has ran multiple marathons in her lifetime, and not just your weekend warrior i might add...she qualified for the boston marathon etc, with a p.r. around 3 hrs. because of my family's fat phobia, gaining weight simply was avoided at all costs. nurture vs nature definatley became intermingled in that respect. the apple does not fall far from the tree...

if you want more pics, i will gladly submit, no homo lol
Click to expand...


LOL, dude. I won't be requesting more submission of anything, brother, though I appreciate the public offering. If it were a PM, I may be a bit scared.:run:

Sounds like you have a good mixture of nature and nurture. (Your folks sound damn impressive.) It's never just about the genes, at the extremes, and your core is ripped.

Once I get my cardiac issues under better control, I hope to be able to re-engage in cardio, so I can start cutting. Of course, first I need to rebuild. It's tough when you cant go heavy (because of recovery from surgeries) or do much in the way of aerobic conditioning. But at least my shoulders are stable such that they wont dislocate every 6 months. I keep telling myself that, as I realize it's going to take a good year to fully recover. Bigger, faster, stronger . . . eventually! My orthopedic surgeon thinks I'm a madman for having both shoulders and my elbow done in 3 weeks. But IMO it's better than spreading the rehab over multiple years.

Hurry up and find us that fountain, bro -- I ain't feeling younger!!! Meanwhile, you may want to collect opinions on the efficacy of transdermal DHEA/preg vs. oral.

Keep on keepin' on . . .
J
 
yes, fitness is important. body morphology is key as well. keeping your figure trim will lead to a longer life. bottom line, the less you eat the longer you will live (dont starve yourself or anything lol). dr. crisler said that the oral PREG occasionally causes sedation, while TD PREG rarely if ever, does. that is the only difference that dr. crisler notified me of. besides better absorption via TD preg, im treating both forms as identicles (Oral vs TD). if i could get a script for TD preg, i would, but that is impossible so the oral route will have to suffice.

for me, it comes down to HCG. if you want to get on trt, but your dr. wont prescribe you hcg, you are better off not jumping on the trt bandwagon at all. on T monotherapy, i felt like crap, even when my T was in the upper normal range and sometimes super physiological range.

i have been on oral PREG for about 1 week, and feel subtle differences in mood. its effects seem very similar to the effect that hcg has on me psychologically (good feeling).


jinxie said:
LOL, dude. I won't be requesting more submission of anything, brother, though I appreciate the public offering. If it were a PM, I may be a bit scared.:run:

Sounds like you have a good mixture of nature and nurture. (Your folks sound damn impressive.) It's never just about the genes, at the extremes, and your core is ripped.

Once I get my cardiac issues under better control, I hope to be able to re-engage in cardio, so I can start cutting. Of course, first I need to rebuild. It's tough when you cant go heavy (because of recovery from surgeries) or do much in the way of aerobic conditioning. But at least my shoulders are stable such that they wont dislocate every 6 months. I keep telling myself that, as I realize it's going to take a good year to fully recover. Bigger, faster, stronger . . . eventually! My orthopedic surgeon thinks I'm a madman for having both shoulders and my elbow done in 3 weeks. But IMO it's better than spreading the rehab over multiple years.

Hurry up and find us that fountain, bro -- I ain't feeling younger!!! Meanwhile, you may want to collect opinions on the efficacy of transdermal DHEA/preg vs. oral.

Keep on keepin' on . . .
J
Click to expand...
 
living2die said:
yes, fitness is important. body morphology is key as well. keeping your figure trim will lead to a longer life. bottom line, the less you eat the longer you will live (dont starve yourself or anything lol). dr. crisler said that the oral PREG occasionally causes sedation, while TD PREG rarely if ever, does. that is the only difference that dr. crisler notified me of. besides better absorption via TD preg, im treating both forms as identicles (Oral vs TD). if i could get a script for TD preg, i would, but that is impossible so the oral route will have to suffice.

for me, it comes down to HCG. if you want to get on trt, but your dr. wont prescribe you hcg, you are better off not jumping on the trt bandwagon at all. on T monotherapy, i felt like crap, even when my T was in the upper normal range and sometimes super physiological range.

i have been on oral PREG for about 1 week, and feel subtle differences in mood. its effects seem very similar to the effect that hcg has on me psychologically (good feeling).
Click to expand...


I am pretty certain you can get TD preg without a script. Is it not in Dermacrine -- maybe just DHEA? I am pretty certain I have seen it on the Net, at US companies. And I cant speak for Crisler, but I know HAN/Matrix thinks TD is far superior. I cant say that I feel anything from the oral -- certainly doesn't help my sieve of a memory, as it is often touted.

Glad you are responding positively. Are you on hCG mono now as well? If so, what's your regimen look like, if you'd like to share. I, too, am on hCG mono. Besides some E2 issues, it's worked well for me. Hopefully, my reduced per diem dose, EOD @ 500 IUs instead of E3Ds @ 800 IUS, will help. I really don't want to be taking a lot of adex, as it destroys your lipid profile. Now taking .2 mgs EOD, a modest dose.
 
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I've just dropped my dose of T down to 125mg a week from 250mg, and am now doing HCG @ 500iu eod after the shot to see how I feel and will test after a few weeks on this protocol. I'm going to keep dosing 10mg of aromasin on the day of each shot until the test as well. I'm thinking previously that the HCG at a really high dose drove my e2 up too high. I think if I really work hard on other issues, I may be a better responder to HCG...Issues such as digestion and certain deficiencies.

Oh for Dermacrine, it has DHEA + PREG + RESV + Crysin in it as far as I know. I think for some people, it may have too much DHEA for them and may push their T+E levels up too much (TD Dhea tends to convert to T on the shoulders and back). This is what I've heard from a few people, but a lot of people really love it too.

Dermacrine typical TD dose:

DHEA – 8 mg/ml
Pregnenolone – 3 mg/ml
7,8 Benzoflavone (99%) – 4 mg/ml
Resveratrol (99%) – 4 mg/ml
Chrysin (99%) – 1 mg/ml
 
Dermacrine might be a nice concoction, but it seems a bit overpriced. it runs at about $60 or so for a months supply. that's not peanuts, or i am just poor.

Your protocol looks sweet. When you retest, and if hypothetically your E2 levels are a little high, i still wouldnt reduce your hcg regiment. I would leave that as it is and just reduce T. or, just reduce the T/HCG in proportion to one another.

thus far are you experiencing any water retention issues, or signs of feminization-induced side effects i.e. gyno, fat deposits on hips?




Gutterpump said:
I've just dropped my dose of T down to 125mg a week from 250mg, and am now doing HCG @ 500iu eod after the shot to see how I feel and will test after a few weeks on this protocol. I'm going to keep dosing 10mg of aromasin on the day of each shot until the test as well. I'm thinking previously that the HCG at a really high dose drove my e2 up too high. I think if I really work hard on other issues, I may be a better responder to HCG...Issues such as digestion and certain deficiencies.

Oh for Dermacrine, it has DHEA + PREG + RESV + Crysin in it as far as I know. I think for some people, it may have too much DHEA for them and may push their T+E levels up too much (TD Dhea tends to convert to T on the shoulders and back). This is what I've heard from a few people, but a lot of people really love it too.

Dermacrine typical TD dose:

DHEA – 8 mg/ml
Pregnenolone – 3 mg/ml
7,8 Benzoflavone (99%) – 4 mg/ml
Resveratrol (99%) – 4 mg/ml
Chrysin (99%) – 1 mg/ml
Click to expand...
 
Nope, I'm on a keto diet again, no water retention and cutting atm - vascularity and hardness is up right now :) I always lose water when I'm on low carbs. I have no gyno either and no chest fat, never have. The only area I have fat to lose is around the midsection though, but that's mainly because of poor diet over the past 4 months.

I'm currently taking 75mg of dhea sublingually and doing a 30day run of TD 7-keto DHEA...so I'm not going to bother testing cortisol for a couple months as the results will be skewed.

On this current test I'm going to check Total T/Bio/Free, e1, e2, progesterone, DHT, SHBG (I'm also on nutraplanet's divanex right now - 95% divanil, stinging nettle extract), albumin, DHEA-S and maybe IGF-1. Possbily doing thyroid panel as well again but I don't think I have issues there besides being previously iodine deficient.

edit: the price of Dermacrine is not so bad because of the other added goodies. But overall, it's gives a nice boost to TRT at times.
 
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