once you hit macros, where to put extra cals?

mkretz

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This is something that really has been bothering me for a while........now i know protein requirements vary but a decent way of thinking is 1g/lb/bw .........then a decent amount of fats and carbs........but what do you do when you are taking in 4500-5000 cals? This is my issue


Ialso try to follow a carb cycling diet so on a low carb day how the heck do i get in that many cals without having rediculously high protein? I have been taking in tons of protein upwards of 300g easy on low carb days ifnot 400gs...... and fats are well over 200g as well. If I were to use the 1g/lb I woudl only take 160-165 g protein and minimal carbs so id have to have like 400g of fat.......that jsut does not seem right.....andon high carb days carbs would have to be like 800g.......that again just doesnot seem right for someone of my body size..........

input?
 
hvactech

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Wat are ur stats. 4500-5000 is alot
 
mkretz

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5'9 160-165, bulking, very active, high volume workouts, been slowly gaining for the past few months.....
 
hvactech

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Carbs to me are easier to meet my cal goal after minimums are met but im around 3k
 
mkretz

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yea like it just seems crazy to eat 400g fat lol and i like protein!!!! and i cant justify eeating liek 800g carbs everyday at my bodyweight ya know....but i dont want to hurt my body by consistently taking in 300+ g protein
 
hvactech

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Do you really feel the need for that many cals? My natural tdee is low so i never need more than 3k to build new mass, and i struggle with that lol
 
Jiigzz

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I both highly doubt you need that many calories and that you're actually consuming that many.
This.

But then again you might be an olympic rower. Curious as to what you do that would require so many calories?
 
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yea like it just seems crazy to eat 400g fat lol and i like protein!!!! and i cant justify eeating liek 800g carbs everyday at my bodyweight ya know....but i dont want to hurt my body by consistently taking in 300+ g protein
I've done the 300+gr of fat before. Cook everything in oil and a couple TBS of Peanut butter for dessert....with every meal. It's possible but not very practical.

Over the years I've learned to manipulate it kind of like a "carb backload" with a pre/intra/post shake (1 big shake) with a solid meal after. I simply eat the same without the carbs on "off days"
 

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yea like it just seems crazy to eat 400g fat lol and i like protein!!!! and i cant justify eeating liek 800g carbs everyday at my bodyweight ya know....but i dont want to hurt my body by consistently taking in 300+ g protein
You aren't going to hurt yourself with 300+ g protein/day
 

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I both highly doubt you need that many calories and that you're actually consuming that many.
x2.

OP, I know metabolisms are different and I've known guys who could eat a horse a day and not gain any fat but I bulk with fewer calories than that and I haven't seen the lighter side of 220lbs in a few years.

I would experiment reducing your calories to a level in line with your macro requirements or slightly over and monitor progress for 6 weeks or so.
 
hossjob

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Very active, high volume + bulk and wanting to eat up to 5,000 cals? You are going to have to up your protein to 1.5-2 g/lb and increase your carbs. If you are worried about adding to much fat, decrease your cals. Start at 20 X's your body weight with 45-50% coming from carbs, 30-35 from protein, and 20% from fats. If you want to carb cycle, simply eliminate your high carb post workout meal on your non training days and increase fats and protein slightly on those days.
 
mkretz

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thanks for all the input guys i really apprecateit and i havent gainedthat fast consuming thatmuch......also i dont consume that much EVERY day like today is at 4100 cuz it goes by my activity....some days i do alot more than others.......... so i do feel that i am using it sicne i haent put on too much badweight gianedabout 12-13 lbsin like 3 months, taht sems pretty healthy
 
02sixxer

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OP can you lay out your diet for me?

I am 6'2" - 220lbs and I can gain on 3000 cals. I am at 3200 right now and gaining good. Are you measuring everything with a scale and measuring cups. What is the quality of the food you are eating and supplements are you on.
 

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And a routine outline? If you're hitting the weights and eating like that you should definitely see some gains. Something is off.
 
breezy11

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Not everyone's required calories (relative to their current goal) are going to fall in line with their calculated BMR/TDEE. I'm 5'11" 210lbs and maintain at ~4500 calories. Besides the OP's metabolism and activity level being a factor, there could be absorption issues as well.
 
hvactech

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Not everyone's required calories (relative to their current goal) are going to fall in line with their calculated BMR/TDEE. I'm 5'11" 210lbs and maintain at ~4500 calories. Besides the OP's metabolism and activity level being a factor, there could be absorption issues as well.
Agreed. While bulking i put on fat at 2700-2800 cals. Im 5'6" at 183. My tdee is 2700 cals reportedly.
 
mkretz

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OP can you lay out your diet for me?

I am 6'2" - 220lbs and I can gain on 3000 cals. I am at 3200 right now and gaining good. Are you measuring everything with a scale and measuring cups. What is the quality of the food you are eating and supplements are you on.
first off i do measure with a scale and measuring cups........

todays meal....

1 cup oats with 1/2 apple, 1 ozblueberries 1.25 cups almond milk

2 eggs
1sliceffcheese
8 egg whites
4 slicescanadian bacon
6oz raw chicken mixed with veggies and 1 cup pasta sauce
4ozavocado
2.25 Tblspn oil
4 oz polish sausage
2 chicken sausages
2ozhummus
1/2 cup macand cheese
3 oz cookedgrilled chicken
green beans
2 poptarts
1 cup butterfinger ice cream
1 chobani rasperryyogurt
1 scoop of golden gains in almond milk with a TBLSP of PB
3/4 cup FF cotttage cheese
1 cup low fat cottage cheese
1slice of protein cheese cake (its the recipe that floats around on here)
 

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Very active, high volume + bulk and wanting to eat up to 5,000 cals? You are going to have to up your protein to 1.5-2 g/lb and increase your carbs. If you are worried about adding to much fat, decrease your cals. Start at 20 X's your body weight with 45-50% coming from carbs, 30-35 from protein, and 20% from fats. If you want to carb cycle, simply eliminate your high carb post workout meal on your non training days and increase fats and protein slightly on those days.
Good info right here!
 
Jiigzz

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How active are you on a daily basis? I.e. what do you do to burn that much? In line with what breezy said; if you really arnt active on a day-to-day basis that requires so many kcals but yet you need to consume them, maybe get that checked out.

On the other hand, if you are that active then dammmmmmmn your grocery bill going to get huge once you get huge haha
 
mkretz

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well..my workouts are very high volume and last around 3 hs, doa 10-15 min warmup plus cardio after and i was doing "cardio" ALOT becuase i woudl study while on the elipticalto keep me awakesoi wasbring ALOTof cals doin that
 
Sean1332

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Stop training for 3 hours and doing cardio after every workout. That's ridiculous. No wonder you have to eat so many calories. TBH, when I lowered my volume and decreased my workout times to 45-60 minutes I noticed the greatest gains.
 

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well..my workouts are very high volume and last around 3 hs, doa 10-15 min warmup plus cardio after and i was doing "cardio" ALOT becuase i woudl study while on the elipticalto keep me awakesoi wasbring ALOTof cals doin that
Can you outline your routine?
 
mkretz

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meant to put 2 hours...........

today was chest/abs/tris

banded explosive bench 10 sets of 3
banded bench 4 sets of 10
reg bench 4 sets of 10
incline bench 4 sets of 10
decline bench 4 sets of 10
4 sets of BW dips
4 sets decline machine
4 sets of DB flys
4 sets of pullovers
pulse up leg raise 100 reps total with ankle weights
leg raises 1 reps total with ankle weights
rope crunches
rope pressodwns 4sets drop on last set
rev grip pressdown 4 sets drop on last set..............ye ai know i should cutdown volume.........i do like eating so much though haha
 
Sean1332

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Way too much. Youre doing 58 sets for chest per workout. Theres no need to do every possible exercise for chest in one session haha

I say cut back on volume and reduce your cardio to just a couple times a week. You burning all those calories and not making up for them is pretty counterintuitive of your bulking. Unless of course you are making them up but having to eat 4000+ kcal to do so.
 

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The whole routine. How do you have the energy for 150 bench press reps? My initial thoughts are either you're doing it wrong or I reaally need to experiment with a **** ton of food!
meant to put 2 hours...........

today was chest/abs/tris

banded explosive bench 10 sets of 3
banded bench 4 sets of 10
reg bench 4 sets of 10
incline bench 4 sets of 10
decline bench 4 sets of 10
4 sets of BW dips
4 sets decline machine
4 sets of DB flys
4 sets of pullovers
pulse up leg raise 100 reps total with ankle weights
leg raises 1 reps total with ankle weights
rope crunches
rope pressodwns 4sets drop on last set
rev grip pressdown 4 sets drop on last set..............ye ai know i should cutdown volume.........i do like eating so much though haha
 
Rodja

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I can tell without a doubt that you're not anywhere the strength level to where you will benefit from accommodating resistance on your bench and they sure as hell aren't to be used for a set of 10.
 
mkretz

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i usually use the bands for spedreps(sets of 3) of in the 6-8 range but changd itup today.............and i knwo its too much but i honestlyliek eating soo much food and i think thatsyi do so much soi can eatthat much....kind of a vicious cycle.....
 
Rodja

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i usually use the bands for spedreps(sets of 3) of in the 6-8 range but changd itup today.............and i knwo its too much but i honestlyliek eating soo much food and i think thatsyi do so much soi can eatthat much....kind of a vicious cycle.....
I fully understand the purpose and role of speed bench/dynamic effort, but my point is that you're far too much of a neophyte to implement this kind of training.
 
mkretz

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I fully understand the purpose and role of speed bench/dynamic effort, but my point is that you're far too much of a neophyte to implement this kind of training.
you dont think it benefits me atall? I have been lifting for aw hile and feel like its a good way to shock my muscles.....plus ive gotten stronger using them........... maybe ill take time off of them for a few weeks
 

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you dont think it benefits me atall? I have been lifting for aw hile and feel like its a good way to shock my muscles.....plus ive gotten stronger using them........... maybe ill take time off of them for a few weeks
How much effort do you put in to your lifts? When you're done with a set, how much "gas in the tank" are you reserving as an estimate?


What you need to realize is that throwing weights around and eating will cause muscle and strength growth, especially as a newbie. This doesn't mean throwing the kitchen sink at your routine is the best, most effective method, even if you are seeing gains, and you won't see any renowned coaches or trainers advertising routines that do that for a reason.

My recommendation would be to research some effective training protocols and routines people have been using successfully. Find one that fits your goals (increased strength or hypertrophy?) and actually read the literature behind the routine to understand the why behind the what.

As you become more knowledgeable, building your own effective routines will be a viable option.

If you are deadset on your exercise selection, at least split the heavy weight work and the high rep work in to seperate sessions. And drop the bands, just go heavy with a spotter for now.

Check out:

Bill Starr
Jim Wendler
Dave Tate
Bill West
Mark Rippetoe
Arthur Jones

And of course... Joe Weider.

Read through these guys philosophies and absorb. You'll see a variety of training theories and methodologies but will understand their appropriate application.

I realize that this is about diet though. Once I hit my macros, if I still need to hit a higher calorie level, I typically fill my gap with the same macro ratios I'm shooting for, just more of them all together.
 
Sean1332

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Great advice above. I used to drive myself crazy making up my own splits trying to hit everything twice a week. Random rep ranges, no structure to my sessions, no progression, overtraining, coming on the boards asking "this routine work? what about this one I made up" I did that for years and never progressed how I have once commiting to a structured program. I'm not smart-Ill leave it to the guys that are bigger and smarter than me to tell me what to do.
 
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you dont think it benefits me atall? I have been lifting for aw hile and feel like its a good way to shock my muscles.....plus ive gotten stronger using them........... maybe ill take time off of them for a few weeks
They're not going to benefit you at all because you're too inexperienced with proper technique, the uses of accommodating resistance, and, I'm going to guess, not benching enough.
 
mkretz

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thanks for all the advice guys i really appreciate it, i will def work on decreasing trianing volume, today i limited mysel to 1.5horus with warmups so thats t least an hour shorter than normalso im happy.

in regards to gas leftin the tank honestly itdepends on the day but somedayim whooped and need aLOT of preworkout to getthrough, esp, some leg days, droppin to the floor after drop sets on suats and leg pressesand hacks...........legs sore for a week.......

i did teh layne norton power/hypertrphy split fora whle and lovedit but i had a partner and a psotter for those heavy days, i dont have that anymore ewhich sux!
 
mkretz

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I do want to get stronger but i woudl say my main focus is to get bigger (hypertrophy)........what recommendations as regard to programs do you have? thanks again
 
Sean1332

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any program by the people mentioned above

you gettin bigger depends on your diet, and not burning all 4,000 cals like you have been.
 
Sean1332

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and your workouts shouldn't be dictated by how much prewo you take.
 
mkretz

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btw congrats guys, we made the newsletter lol!!!
 

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Time the Extra Macros

I usually eat in the 3,500-4,000 range when growing, and I try to keep protein below 280g to reduce potential kidney strain. I have read that whey protein, fish and fowl are all neutral on kidneys, and I try to lean to those protein sources. But better safe than sorry. Of all the three macros, protein is the least desirable as an *energy* source, so just take the amount you need to create a nitrogen-rich environment for muscle repair and building. Don't take so much that your body is forced to get a big portion of its energy from protein.

For the rest of the macros, I prefer to go heavier on the fat. A feeding of fat contains double the calories per gram, and burns longer and steadier throughout the day. When you're eating that much fat, though, you want to pay attention to the quality of the fats. Get most of the excess fat from olive oil, and get in a good amount of Omega-3 and MCT (don't overdo either one, though.) You can add two teaspoons of olive oil in with a scoop of whey powder in cold water and stir; morning and night gives you an extra 500 calories a day of fat. Get another 4 tbsp by putting extra on salads, tuna, using olive oil to brown your ground beef in the morning, etc. and you're up to 1,000 calories a day from olive oil alone. 8 tbsp a day is a pretty good target, in my experience. Then you have 1 tbsp MCT (max) in your coffee, a few tablespoons of butter, and the fat that comes naturally in your meat. That's a lot of calories. Try to minimize vegetable and soy oil.

High-carb intake comes immediately after your workouts, up to 4 times per week. This can be more processed sugary or starchy carbs as long as you worked out really hard. Then there is room for additional carb intake on the days of your heaviest workouts (2-3 days a week) where you eat carbs throughout the day. Stack the carbs toward things like yams and oats. Then on the 3 non-workout days, drop carbs to much lower levels. Beyond that, just avoid mixing carbs and fat in the same meal. That is, on your high-carb meals, keep the fat to a minimum. And when you're eating high-fat meals with butter, olive oil, etc. just avoid any carbs.

It sounds kind of complicated, but it's not that hard. It's like "Is today one of my hardest workouts? If so, go ahead and have oats and yams in the morning with salmon, fruit juice and whey after the workout, and then lots of carbs and protein during the day", or "Is today a non-workout day? If so, chug olive oil and eat sardines and avoid any carbs that aren't veggies".

Anyway, what I am describing is just "carb cycling", and carb cycling isn't for everyone. You can go the other direction, and aim for low fat by increasing protein and carbs. I think the main thing is still to avoid mixing carbs and fat in the same meal.
 
Rodja

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ALL protein, regardless of source, puts some strain through the kidneys. Look up PRAL for further information regarding protein and renal stress.
 

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thanks for all the advice guys i really appreciate it, i will def work on decreasing trianing volume, today i limited mysel to 1.5horus with warmups so thats t least an hour shorter than normalso im happy.

in regards to gas leftin the tank honestly itdepends on the day but somedayim whooped and need aLOT of preworkout to getthrough, esp, some leg days, droppin to the floor after drop sets on suats and leg pressesand hacks...........legs sore for a week.......

i did teh layne norton power/hypertrphy split fora whle and lovedit but i had a partner and a psotter for those heavy days, i dont have that anymore ewhich sux!
Just grab a random dude at the gym when you need a spot. It's a easy as, "Excuse me, can I get a spot real quick?" Pick a guy who looks like he knows his way around a weight room for safety sake. You'd be surprised how willing people are to help out. Ask for form and technique help too, even if you don't think you need it. It's all well and good to get advice online but some things are better demonstrated in person.

It's been a while since I was a beginner and even then I started lifting in jr. high for our athletics programs so I always had some guidance. I don't know of many beginner bodybuilding programs (hypertrophy). They could be out there en masse but I think it's because you have to have a basis of strength and know how to really get in to a hypertrophy program to begin with. Maybe some others will chime in though.

I can't post links which is highly annoying and don't remember the name of another thread I'm posting in but regarding strength I mentioned buildin a foundation over there.

Essentially, Think about dinner. You can lift a fork 100 times and not induce hypertrophy. Imagine squatting 200 pounds for reps and then imagine squatting 400 pounds for reps. The higher level of strength alone will increase your capacity for size.

I am willing to bet you are a beginner for all practical intents and purposes and should start with Bill Starrs 5x5 or Mark Rippetoe's variation of it until you hit at least intermediate strength levels.*

From there I would recommend Bill Wests Westside method to gain appreciable strength and then a bulking plan known as Doggcrap for your hypertophy. It will let you eat a **** ton too, don't worry.

You can't build a house without a foundation. Get your squats, deadlifts, bench and overhead presses up to par with the programs above. I would also recommend a website called exrx dot net. (still can't post links) They have charts outlining beginner,intermediate, advanced guidelines and definitions to place yourself in the right program plus a ton of useful, practical info.


* I recommend 5x5, westside and doggcrap because that's what I have used. I still do. I cycle through routines as the year goes on personally. Strength in the fall, bulk in the winter, cut during spring and 5x5 (with personal tweaks and additions at this point) in the summer. You need to do whatever your chosen strength routine tells you until it's over, then assess where you are experience wise and plan your next move accordingly.

These days I do tweak routines or make up my own to bring up lagging body parts et cetera but highly recommend getting on pre-planned routines for at least a few years. The selection work is already done for you and you will learn alot as you go. Jim Wendler's 531 is super popular right now for strength, Big Beyond Belief is a great one for hypertrophy with a few templates designed for varying experience levels too.


I know my post is long winded but to wrap up:

1. Build strength first (what are your numbers?) - Starr, Wendler, West, Ripptoe, Tate
2. Pick a hypertrophy plan when you have the strength to actually make it worthwhile - Weider, Jones, Trudel (Doggcrap), Costa (big beyond belief)

Don't rush to number two. Routines geared to strength will still build muscle mass. You just need your emphasis on strength first. Bodybuilding is a marathon made up of lots and lots of sprints.
 
mkretz

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thanks alot for that post man! i feel my strength is decent, not as good as it was when i was playin college football but bench is almost 1.5x bw, squat i 2x bw and dl is almost 2.5x bw

i was thinking of starting layne nortons power/hypertrophy split routinewhat do u guys think about that
 
mkretz

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alsolooking at westside....i like the explosiveness training
 
02sixxer

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I am going to make a seperate post of this, but I have tried several of Matt Kroc's workouts from T-Nation and they are some of the best I ve ever done. They cross post them hiere is the news letter quite often.
 
Type O Hero

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You probably don't need that many calories. Just consistency and time.

Your body can only digest and absorb so much at once, and I would imagine that there's absolutely no way whatsoever that your body is making full use of 5000 calories worth of food. No way.

When I was younger and bulking, I'd try to go overboard. Then as I got older, I realized that I could make equal progress by eating substantially less. As in, I used to shoot for 3500-4000 calories per day, then realized that I could make the same progress at closer to 2600ish.

Eating 5000 calories is just going to make you feel like you've got another full time job on your hands. Not to mention feeling like ****. It's easy to go overboard.

My opinion..
 
Type O Hero

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Get on a natty test boosting stack so you're test is elevated allowing you to put on mass a little easier. That way, you'll feel great, be putting on muscle mass, and not have to be eating like a horse all the time.

Erase
EndoSurge
DAA
 
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I believe he's on TRT.
 

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