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Nolvadex preventing shutdown during cycle

barische

barische

Active member
Study shows increase in FSH while taking 40 mg test undec + tamoxifen.

most of the time FSH and LH move in relation. has anyone done a mild cycle with nolva during? any experiences?

Study:

The combination of testosterone undecanoate with tamoxifen citrate enhances the effects of each agent given independently on seminal parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
Adamopoulos DA1, Nicopoulou S, Kapolla N, Karamertzanis M, Andreou E.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To evaluate the effects of combined tamoxifen citrate and T undecanoate treatment on seminal parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.

DESIGN:
Prospective randomized clinical study.

SETTING:
A state hospital tertiary clinic.

PATIENT(S):
Eighty oligozoospermic men were included in the protocol.

INTERVENTION(S):
Patients were randomized to receive placebo, T undecanoate (40 mg three times per day), tamoxifen citrate (10 mg two times per day), or T undecanoate plus tamoxifen citrate.

RESULT(S):
Tamoxifen citrate plus T undecanoate treatment produced a satisfactory improvement of total sperm number, motility, and functional sperm fraction after 3 and 6 months. Comparisons with other active treatment groups showed significantly higher increment values for motility and functional fraction, whereas aniline, acrosine, and free L-carnitine also were markedly better in the combination treatment group.

CONCLUSION(S):
These results indicate that the combination of tamoxifen citrate with T undecanoate not only improves significantly important seminal parameters but also compares favorably with the single treatments used. Therefore, this combination deserves a place as a first line of treatment in idiopathic oligozoospermia.
 
Nice. I have seen nolva keep T levels normal throughout a 12 week LGD cycle. Clomid kept my T levels normal during a 10 week primo/ dbol cycle

And by normal I mean within range
 
RickyBlobby said:
Nice. I have seen nolva keep T levels normal throughout a 12 week LGD cycle. Clomid kept my T levels normal during a 10 week primo/ dbol cycle

And by normal I mean within range
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So in theory, doing a mild legal PH cycle, and running a serm throughout, and after for PCT, you could technically retain most gains.
 
ValiantThor08 said:
So in theory, doing a mild legal PH cycle, and running a serm throughout, and after for PCT, you could technically retain most gains.
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In theory you should retain more gains. But IMO of more importance is you prevent or at least minimize the permanent damage to your HTPA that comes with complete shutdown.
 
I cycled when I was 19, 20, 21.. some harsh stuff. Had proper PCT after cycle, but did not use serm or HCG during cycle. I ended up not cycling after due to my weight always dropping off soon after cycle. My test shut down hard after all the cycles. I am blessed that I am fertile (have one kid, and one on the way), and am making natural gains progressively now.
 
That is interesting. Did you do blood work? I had the same theory about a SERM/SARM stack. What was your PCT like? Did you increase dosage? What was the dosage during the cycle? So you kept your gains?? Any info would be valuable, thanks in advance.
 
20mg a day according to study. I'm going to test theory out next SARM cycle I run. Way to good of info to ignore.
 
I keep hearing ppl say this works, and I'd love if it did but I've yet to see 1 person show bloodwork proving it does. Many ppl repeatedly say they have the bloods to "prove" it, but not 1 person has posted them for any1 to see.

Just my 2cents
 
Smont said:
I keep hearing ppl say this works, and I'd love if it did but I've yet to see 1 person show bloodwork proving it does. Many ppl repeatedly say they have the bloods to "prove" it, but not 1 person has posted them for any1 to see.

Just my 2cents
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That’s why I asked how much it was to get blood work done. I’m thinking about doing it myself.

I would need to run two cycles to find out if it works correct?
 
Dthcore said:
That’s why I asked how much it was to get blood work done. I’m thinking about doing it myself.

I would need to run two cycles to find out if it works correct?
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I would say get bloodwork done pre cycle and again before pct. That would show enough. For a general idea if it works. If you wanna know exactly how well it works run a seccond cycle without the serm and do the bloods to see the difference
 
Interesting that they used Andriol...

Regarding serms on cycle usage: as off now most that tried taking normal/high dosages of aas with a serm got shuttdown or severly supressed. In some instances LH stayed up to a degree but testosterone production was significantly reduced. Androgens effect testies not just hypothalamus. So LH can stay up (as in the case of ostarine for example) but testosterone production in the testicles get's shuttdown.

When I took ostarine my LH in 5 full weeks time dropped from 3.5 to 3.0 but my total T was zero. So no amount of serms would help and ostarine is considered mild. This will probably vary from substance to substance though.

Other thing to mention is that serms only block estrogen at the hypothalamus but there are also androgen receptors that create a negative feedback loop. So blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus will only get you so far.

The key to keeping your hpta on during a cycle is PROBABLY to be on a really small cycle. Like 25mg var or 10mg tbol, 10mg dbol... Going to normal doses like 50 - 75mg tbol/var/dbol will probably shutt you down but suppression might be delayed for a few weeks. Which imo does matter as there is a difference if you were suppressed for 8 weeks or just 4... And if LH stays a bit up, then recovery will be much easier.

My point beeing, using serm on cycle can help but you have two options:
- take really low dosages of aas and run them for 8 weeks or longer. Like 20mg of var for 8 weeks.
- take a normal dosage off a single oral aas, get shuttdown in week 3 - 5, stop the cycle at week 6 and have a lot easier recovery.

What might help:
- take the aas only once per day in the early morning
- start taking the serm a week before aas
- take a moderate dose of a serm: ie. 20mg tamox ed.
 
Jinsun said:
Interesting that they used Andriol...

Regarding serms on cycle usage: as off now most that tried taking normal/high dosages of aas with a serm got shuttdown or severly supressed. In some instances LH stayed up to a degree but testosterone production was significantly reduced. Androgens effect testies not just hypothalamus. So LH can stay up (as in the case of ostarine for example) but testosterone production in the testicles get's shuttdown.

When I took ostarine my LH in 5 full weeks time dropped from 3.5 to 3.0 but my total T was zero. So no amount of serms would help and ostarine is considered mild. This will probably vary from substance to substance though.

Other thing to mention is that serms only block estrogen at the hypothalamus but there are also androgen receptors that create a negative feedback loop. So blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus will only get you so far.

The key to keeping your hpta on during a cycle is PROBABLY to be on a really small cycle. Like 25mg var or 10mg tbol, 10mg dbol... Going to normal doses like 50 - 75mg tbol/var/dbol will probably shutt you down but suppression might be delayed for a few weeks. Which imo does matter as there is a difference if you were suppressed for 8 weeks or just 4... And if LH stays a bit up, then recovery will be much easier.

My point beeing, using serm on cycle can help but you have two options:
- take really low dosages of aas and run them for 8 weeks or longer. Like 20mg of var for 8 weeks.
- take a normal dosage off a single oral aas, get shuttdown in week 3 - 5, stop the cycle at week 6 and have a lot easier recovery.

What might help:
- take the aas only once per day in the early morning
- start taking the serm a week before aas
- take a moderate dose of a serm: ie. 20mg tamox ed.
Click to expand...

I was thinking test as the base at 300mg a week with an SD kick start. 12 week cycle, might be pushing it though.
 
Dthcore said:
I was thinking test as the base at 300mg a week with an SD kick start. 12 week cycle, might be pushing it though.
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No way you'll be able to keep hpta up with 300mg's of test. People can't maintain hpta with a trt dose of test. You need less androgenic compounds. Either dht orals or injectables like primo... also short half life aas taken in the AM might help.
 
Jinsun said:
No way you'll be able to keep hpta up with 300mg's of test. People can't maintain hpta with a trt dose of test. You need less androgenic compounds. Either dht orals or injectables like primo... also short half life aas taken in the AM might help.
Click to expand...

Primo and SD be more ideal?
 
Dthcore said:
Primo and SD be more ideal?
Click to expand...

Yeah most likely. Or just 10 to 15mg SD for 3-4 weeks. Or primo at 200 - 300 for 12 weeks maybe. But tbh this is all speculation and you wont know what works or not untill you'll try it for yourself.
 
Jinsun said:
No way you'll be able to keep hpta up with 300mg's of test. People can't maintain hpta with a trt dose of test. You need less androgenic compounds. Either dht orals or injectables like primo... also short half life aas taken in the AM might help.
Click to expand...
And that's the point, to see what it can handle, I say go with the test and sd. If he runs a little 4 week oh cycle and it holds up everyone is gonna be mislead.
 
I have paid for the $36 total T and free. At some point I will show up to lab. I am very skeptical post my results either way because I see way too many young kids coming here asking about AAS/SARMS, etc way before they should. This information if positive may make AAS use more desirable as further reduced sides. Biggest examples are the people still asking about superdrol use, which is a terrible drug to use.
 
Jinsun said:
Interesting that they used Andriol...

Regarding serms on cycle usage: as off now most that tried taking normal/high dosages of aas with a serm got shuttdown or severly supressed. In some instances LH stayed up to a degree but testosterone production was significantly reduced. Androgens effect testies not just hypothalamus. So LH can stay up (as in the case of ostarine for example) but testosterone production in the testicles get's shuttdown.

When I took ostarine my LH in 5 full weeks time dropped from 3.5 to 3.0 but my total T was zero. So no amount of serms would help and ostarine is considered mild. This will probably vary from substance to substance though.

Other thing to mention is that serms only block estrogen at the hypothalamus but there are also androgen receptors that create a negative feedback loop. So blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus will only get you so far.

The key to keeping your hpta on during a cycle is PROBABLY to be on a really small cycle. Like 25mg var or 10mg tbol, 10mg dbol... Going to normal doses like 50 - 75mg tbol/var/dbol will probably shutt you down but suppression might be delayed for a few weeks. Which imo does matter as there is a difference if you were suppressed for 8 weeks or just 4... And if LH stays a bit up, then recovery will be much easier.

My point beeing, using serm on cycle can help but you have two options:
- take really low dosages of aas and run them for 8 weeks or longer. Like 20mg of var for 8 weeks.
- take a normal dosage off a single oral aas, get shuttdown in week 3 - 5, stop the cycle at week 6 and have a lot easier recovery.

What might help:
- take the aas only once per day in the early morning
- start taking the serm a week before aas
- take a moderate dose of a serm: ie. 20mg tamox ed.
Click to expand...

I agree with your points. no tamox/clomid going to prevent suppression when high doses are used. the study exampled used a low to moderate dose. So just like you have mentioned low dose, already low suppression drugs + nolva would be optimal.

Also low AR binding agents may be optimal also = dbol - which showed 66% reduction of test levels at short time period just used on its own. I wonder how much would that be reduced with use of AI because we know that aromatised estrogen is also suppressive.

optimal trial cycle
10mg dbol first thing morning
AI to reduce aromatization.
nolva..

or

anavar is already speculated to be low suppression but there is 5 day study on college students which showed ~30-40% reduction of Test but day 5 but no reduction at day 3. But study done on AIDS patients over 12 weeks showed about the same amount of test reduction at 12 week point so the suppression amounts are conflictive.
 
barische said:
anavar is already speculated to be low suppression but there is 5 day study on college students which showed ~30-40% reduction of Test but day 5 but no reduction at day 3. But study done on AIDS patients over 12 weeks showed about the same amount of test reduction at 12 week point so the suppression amounts are conflictive.
Click to expand...

Interesting. What were the dosages if var used in those studies and did test fall off even more later on or did it stay at app the same level?

Doing just 10mg od bol is imo a waste. I think 20mg var for 8 to 12 weeks might be interesting or something similiar with tbol. Also a short 3 week sd 10mg cycle would be interesting.
 
Smont said:
And that's the point, to see what it can handle, I say go with the test and sd. If he runs a little 4 week oh cycle and it holds up everyone is gonna be mislead.
Click to expand...

That amount of test + sd we dont need to experiment, we know he will get shuttdown :) Tbh, why wouldn't we want to do shorter cycles? They are less damaging to the hpta in the long run, especially if serms are used to keep hpta alive to an extent.

Regarding normal dosages, we already have two examples I think with tbol and a serm. They both got shuttdown in 6 weeks time. One had some LH but no test and the other no test, LH unknown.
 
Jinsun said:
Interesting. What were the dosages if var used in those studies and did test fall off even more later on or did it stay at app the same level?

Doing just 10mg od bol is imo a waste. I think 20mg var for 8 to 12 weeks might be interesting or something similiar with tbol. Also a short 3 week sd 10mg cycle would be interesting.
Click to expand...

It was 15mg and only lasted those 5 days
 
Jinsun said:
That amount of test + sd we dont need to experiment, we know he will get shuttdown :) Tbh, why wouldn't we want to do shorter cycles? They are less damaging to the hpta in the long run, especially if serms are used to keep hpta alive to an extent.

Regarding normal dosages, we already have two examples I think with tbol and a serm. They both got shuttdown in 6 weeks time. On had some LH but no teet and the other no test, LH unknown.
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There's a few ppl on this board telling ppl the opposite. And more and more ppl are starting to preach it who have never tried it. Look around there's a lot of that bull**** going on lately
 
Okay so what the hell are we looking at here at this point. I already have test E and SD. Going to be getting Epi as well soon.

I would prefer to use what I have and be in cycle 12 weeks.
 
Smont said:
There's a few ppl on this board telling ppl the opposite. And more and more ppl are starting to preach it who have never tried it. Look around there's a lot of that bull**** going on lately
Click to expand...

And that’s the real problem I believe if someone believes in this he won’t know if it works or not unless he tries.

The real question is if someone tries it is the outcomes going to be worse that the expected shutdown without a SERM on cycle ?
 
Dthcore said:
Okay so what the hell are we looking at here at this point. I already have test E and SD. Going to be getting Epi as well soon.

I would prefer to use what I have and be in cycle 12 weeks.
Click to expand...

Don't use the serm on cycle and save it only for pct with those dosages.
 
Wow. Lots of info but nothing tested yet as far as the SARM/SERM stack. I am thinking of doing it and I will make a log of what happens. Using anything stronger than a SARM is not possible for me so this test will not provide much info for people considering that kind of stack.
 
MANLYUSERNAME said:
Wow. Lots of info but nothing tested yet as far as the SARM/SERM stack. I am thinking of doing it and I will make a log of what happens. Using anything stronger than a SARM is not possible for me so this test will not provide much info for people considering that kind of stack.
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The problem with sarms is you don't really know what your getting. Sarms are often spiked or replaced with a prohormone. Id rather take something I can trust so I know what I'm up against.
 
Smont said:
The problem with sarms is you don't really know what your getting. Sarms are often spiked or replaced with a prohormone. Id rather take something I can trust so I know what I'm up against.
Click to expand...

x2, our source sells ostarine/ cheapest sarm for $11 /gm.. where orals dbol/winny etc, $2-4/gm so technically you can sell dbol/winny for less than quarter the price with better results....
 
barische said:
x2, our source sells ostarine/ cheapest sarm for $11 /gm.. where orals dbol/winny etc, $2-4/gm so technically you can sell dbol/winny for less than quarter the price with better results....
Click to expand...

Holy shet that’s a smoking deal!!!!!!!! Take all my money!! Snorting winny and dbol for breakfast!!
 
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