NO TEST information summery

[FRITZBLITZZ]

NO Test All The Info You Need

I Think This subject needs to be divided into 2 sections....1 the subject of pinning steroids without a test base or with a test replacement and 2 running oral and TD only designer steroids and PH. I did my best to rank them in order. I also tried to only include steroids that can be obtained some are still not on the Joe shmoe UGL shopping list but a good lab or connect has these or will make a special order.

1 You can run zero test on certain compound cycles and you can run test replacements on other compounds. Many compounds can be ran without test as long as you are fine without labido, can boost your lethargy, and can keep a positive mood. I personally have no problem going without labido for a few months while focused on training...My girlfriend on the other hand would not allow that for even 1 week. Then their are compounds that need test in order to fully achieve maximum results and this is the majority of steroids. You can run Deca without test but if you run even just a small amount of test your results will be much better you have to imagine Deca 700mg alone=7....Test 300mg alone=3
But Deca 700mg/Test 300mg = 14 instead of 10 because they compound each other's effects.

Test replacements depending on the other compounds:
Primo----Primo and Mast is a great combo for thick lean gains
2-Delta---Desoxytestosterone is probably the single best test replacement as for it's gains but also it can be added to nearly anything. It is essentially a far stronger version of Primo but with some side effects where as Primo is very mild with almost 0 sides
DHB------Dihydroboldenone and Deca is equal or better than Test
EQ--------EQ as a test base with Tren actually combines with Tren better than Test
Trest-----Low-mid dose Trest can be exilent with DHT derivatives like Mast, Mestanalone, Winstrol Depot, Others with heavy AI use
Dbol-----Was used as a Test base from 70's-90's has a very high estro conversion so AI and a estro inhibiting steroid would be best combo
Proviron--Probably the weakest of the Test replacements but also very low side effects

Obviously you can run any of the test replacements on their own but here are some compounds that will have some draw backs but for the most part can run alone without Test:
Trest/ MENT- can be ran alone with good results as long as you have Letro, Aromasin, Nolvadex for bloat and gyno, and Reloxifen for gyno
Deca/ NPP-Was ran alone in high MGs in old days. It will work without Test but your labido will be gone, however lethargy and depression are lessthan other compounds without Test. Caber or Prami is a must along with low dose Aromasin
Dienolone-Has also been ran alone it's a 19-nor so caber/prami however your results are greatly increased with a test base.
Masterone-As long as you have low body fat you will get decent dense gains and cut up also better results with test
Dianabol-you will need similar support supps as MENT but you will not have near the results of MENT
Superdrol-Most powerful DHT derivative orals can give really good results alone but still a small test base will help with lethargy these include all
the greats like Anadrol to Halo to Msten no need to list them all

Using SERMS as a test base
This is an ineffective way to just confuse your HTPA, and possibly cause a very hard recovery. Think about this scenario.[Its very simplified for a reason] Your ERβ receives the signal telling Pgland release LH while your testicles are near dormant. Then it immediately receives the opposite signal to halt LH production and this happens over and over. Also you have more androgens telling your brain to halt LH rather than to produce it. How are your dormant testicles going to respond to small very short pulses of LH when it takes 4 weeks of large amounts of SERM to get your testicles to wake up and. This may [I don't know] really mess up your PCT because you have been introducing a SERM that has just been confusing and short circuiting your HTPA?

2. Oral and TD only Designer Steroids and PH Testosterone replacements and compounds that can be run without test
MENT- probably the best Test replacement since it not only enhances any additional compounds as a test replacement MENT alone gives great gains unfortunatly lower doses are needed to be able to control estro even with Letro, Asin, Nolva, and Relox
TD Trest- Almost identical to MENT but I've heard that the estro sides are easier to control. Maybe TD gives a more gradual release of Trest.

The fallowing are really only effective for adding just a bit of Test replacement if your target compound benefits from just a low Test base
4-Andro- This is a very weak PH as far as conversion but you can get away with reg dose if other compound needs little Test like DMZ
Epiandro- This would be less effective version of 4-Andro essentually a very weak weak version of Proviron
Dermacrine-This is a weak test alternative almost like adding 15mg Test/week while completley shutdown when TRT is 150-200mg/week
Stano- As far as I know this is almost useless but I may be wrong

These are the DS anf PH that you can get 80%-100% results without Test or Test replacement, they are listed in a decent order of ranking
Pheraplex/DMT-Probably the lowest side effect best single oral to run without test Desoxymethyltestosterone is just king
Superdrol- All of your very strong DHT derivitives will still be very effective without test. Think like running Masterone by it's self
Halodrol - From all accounts really gives the same effect without any Test
Msten- Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results
DMZ -Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results. Also seems to have worse sides without Test base
Epistane- You will get cut and add just a tiny bit of muscle without Test, mostly a hardener
Trenavol- Will work a little without a Test base as it's a PH to Tren, but alone it has either a weaker conversion or just weaker effect. Spawn
[Trenavol & Epistane] was extremely effective because Tren needed that DHT derivative to act as a test base or a boldenone base to really shine
All the DHEAs alone are worthless

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

Really guys??? I spent a lot of time to make this cuz it was obviously a topic many ppl wanted to know about

 

[hairygrandpa]

I think FRITZBLITZZ deserves some attention for this, as recently popping up a lot of questions regarding "Test bases".



rtmilburn alphagainz SFreed CJNator HIT4ME wesb2387 Tank999 DennisTheDane Juicedeez utz BEAST73 Alpha1agreda LeanEngineer coltonwalker Brandinooooo Sparkss Studhorse blueline438 lifted67 smith_69 rtmilburn FireTitan ChocolateClen justhere4comm matt8483 ryane87 nostrum420 mmorso thebigt Dirty Dan Bmac63095 TNlifting BEAST73 Tank999 BloodManor angcd3 habajaba mmorso cwages TheMyth DemntedCowboy lukehayd Rocket3015 Oconns28 jalfrey bloodnthunder jtmass Martyfnemec Studhorse MrKleen73

 

[Studhorse]

I'm in.

 

[Martyfnemec]

Interesting!

 

[rtmilburn]

I Think This subject needs to be divided into 2 sections....1 the subject of pinning steroids without a test base or with a test replacement and 2 running oral and TD only designer steroids and PH. I did my best to rank them in order. I also tried to only include steroids that can be obtained some are still not on the Joe shmoe UGL shopping list but a good lab or connect has these or will make a special order.

1 You can run zero test on certain compound cycles and you can run test replacements on other compounds. Many compounds can be ran without test as long as you are fine without labido, can boost your lethargy, and can keep a positive mood. I personally have no problem going without labido for a few months while focused on training...My girlfriend on the other hand would not allow that for even 1 week. Then their are compounds that need test in order to fully achieve maximum results and this is the majority of steroids. You can run Deca without test but if you run even just a small amount of test your results will be much better you have to imagine Deca 700mg alone=7....Test 300mg alone=3
But Deca 700mg/Test 300mg = 14 instead of 10 because they compound each other's effects.

Test replacements depending on the other compounds:
Primo----Primo and Mast is a great combo for thick lean gains
2-Delta---Desoxytestosterone is probably the single best test replacement as for it's gains but also it can be added to nearly anything. It is essentially a far stronger version of Primo but with some side effects where as Primo is very mild with almost 0 sides
DHB------Dihydroboldenone and Deca is equal or better than Test
EQ--------EQ as a test base with Tren actually combines with Tren better than Test
Trest-----Low-mid dose Trest can be exilent with DHT derivatives like Mast, Mestanalone, Winstrol Depot, Others with heavy AI use
Dbol-----Was used as a Test base from 70's-90's has a very high estro conversion so AI and a estro inhibiting steroid would be best combo
Proviron--Probably the weakest of the Test replacements but also very low side effects except for the methylation.

Obviously you can run any of the test replacements on their own but here are some compounds that will have some draw backs but for the most part can run alone without Test:
Trest/ MENT- can be ran alone with good results as long as you have Letro, Aromasin, Nolvadex for bloat and gyno, and Reloxifen for gyno
Deca/ NPP-Was ran alone in high MGs in old days. It will work without Test but your labido will be gone, however lethargy and depression are lessthan other compounds without Test. Caber or Prami is a must along with low dose Aromasin
Dienolone-Has also been ran alone it's a 19-nor so caber/prami however your results are greatly increased with a test base.
Masterone-As long as you have low body fat you will get decent dense gains and cut up also better results with test
Dianabol-you will need similar support supps as MENT but you will not have near the results of MENT
Superdrol-Most powerful DHT derivative orals can give really good results alone but still a small test base will help with lethargy these include all
the greats like Anadrol to Halo to Msten no need to list them all

Using SERMS as a test base
This is an ineffective way to just confuse your HTPA, and possibly cause a very hard recovery. Think about this scenario.[Its very simplified for a reason] Your ERβ receives the signal telling Pgland release LH while your testicles are near dormant. Then it immediately receives the opposite signal to halt LH production and this happens over and over. Also you have more androgens telling your brain to halt LH rather than to produce it. How are your dormant testicles going to respond to small very short pulses of LH when it takes 4 weeks of large amounts of SERM to get your testicles to wake up and. This may [I don't know] really mess up your PCT because you have been introducing a SERM that has just been confusing and short circuiting your HTPA?

2. Oral and TD only Designer Steroids and PH Testosterone replacements and compounds that can be run without test
MENT- probably the best Test replacement since it not only enhances any additional compounds as a test replacement MENT alone gives great gains unfortunatly lower doses are needed to be able to control estro even with Letro, Asin, Nolva, and Relox
TD Trest- Almost identical to MENT but I've heard that the estro sides are easier to control. Maybe TD gives a more gradual release of Trest.

The fallowing are really only effective for adding just a bit of Test replacement if your target compound benefits from just a low Test base
4-Andro- This is a very weak PH as far as conversion but you can get away with reg dose if other compound needs little Test like DMZ
Epiandro- This would be less effective version of 4-Andro essentually a very weak weak version of Proviron
Dermacrine-This is a weak test alternative almost like adding 15mg Test/week while completley shutdown when TRT is 150-200mg/week
Stano- As far as I know this is almost useless but I may be wrong

These are the DS anf PH that you can get 80%-100% results without Test or Test replacement, they are listed in a decent order of ranking
Pheraplex/DMT-Probably the lowest side effect best single oral to run without test Desoxymethyltestosterone is just king
Superdrol- All of your very strong DHT derivitives will still be very effective without test. Think like running Masterone by it's self
Halodrol - From all accounts really gives the same effect without any Test
Msten- Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results
DMZ -Will work fine without a Test base but really needs a decent base to push 100% results. Also seems to have worse sides without Test base
Epistane- You will get cut and add just a tiny bit of muscle without Test, mostly a hardener
Trenavol- Will work a little without a Test base as it's a PH to Tren, but alone it has either a weaker conversion or just weaker effect. Spawn
[Trenavol & Epistane] was extremely effective because Tren needed that DHT derivative to act as a test base or a boldenone base to really shine
All the DHEAs alone are worthless

While I agree that test is not necessarily and your assessment on individual compounds without test. I feel you are way off base with serms.

 

[bloodnthunder]

Following

 

[Matthersby]

Interesting read. There’s loads of experienced users inclined to agree that some of the stronger 19-Nors function quite well without a test base, I’d go one step further and say that running over a TrT dose of Test only with some of them only aggravates their dreadful sides..

 

[nubioso]

Interesting read. There’s loads of experienced users inclined to agree that some of the stronger 19-Nors function quite well without a test base, I’d go one step further and say that running over a TrT dose of Test only with some of them only aggravates their dreadful sides..

It's for this very reason I was planning on running my test e at 150/wk instead of 300 with tren. Acne got me like a maaafukker.

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

While I agree that test is not necessarily and your assessment on individual compounds without test. I feel you are way off base with serms.

I'm open to being educated as far as a SERM actually stimulating a necessary amount of Test while on cycle. I don't disagree that it can be used to keep your testicles awake. However from what little I have found on the subject concludes that a SERM wouldn't even be able to stimulate your testicles to half production.

 

[rtmilburn]

I'm open to being educated as far as a SERM actually stimulating a necessary amount of Test while on cycle. I don't disagree that it can be used to keep your testicles awake. However from what little I have found on the subject concludes that a SERM wouldn't even be able to stimulate your testicles to half production.

Totally agree. It's not about keeping natural testosterone being produced, as it won't with most anything except maybe anavar or 11-keto.

Rather it's about keeping LH and fsh levels within range, making sure the hypothalamus and pituitary are maintaining their function. So once any suppressive gear is out of you system your testicles will respond much faster. As "waking up" the hypothalamus is the slowest part of the process, imo.

 

[brofessorx]

Even though I wasn’t tagged ( probably for the reason I’m about to post) I’ll be the one to be a negative Nancy.

I stopped reading after your first paragraph an chalked everything up to broscience.
I see no sources listed referencing data based research. Yes anecdotal evidence has its place, but only in addition to data. There’s plenty of research on steroids.
I don’t advise anyone to read this and instead do your research from the following:
Seth Roberts “anabolic pharmacology”
William Llewelyn “anabolics” (w/e latest edition is)
Julius vida androgenic anabolic agents: chemistry and pharmacology.

If you’re going to be using anabolics, don’t be a cheap ass and invest in this so you really know wtf your doing/talking about.

Then of course reading up on post from users such as Patrick Arnold, henryV, brymaster, etc.

 

[brofessorx]

Totally agree. It's not about keeping natural testosterone being produced, as it won't with most anything except maybe anavar or 11-keto.

Rather it's about keeping LH and fsh levels within range, making sure the hypothalamus and pituitary are maintaining their function. So once any suppressive gear is out of you system your testicles will respond much faster. As "waking up" the hypothalamus is the slowest part of the process, imo.

Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.

 

[rtmilburn]

Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.

Well there is a study showing that you can keep normal LH levels on cycle with clomid.

 

[rtmilburn]

Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.

Also I have not seen any evidence that suggest either of us is correct here. It's all broscience with this, so to make assumptions like this and state them as fact is definitely misleading. Now this could very well be the case no doubt.

However, hcg has its problems as well. It upregulates aromatase, possible desensitization in lyding cells, and it's insanely delicate compound—that can be hard to source the drug, that maintained high enough potency to sell for actual pharmacies, let alone for online— so I think using hcg on cycle is just as big of a risk as trying a clomid or torem on cycle, to maintain LH levels.

Give it a shot and see for yourself, I liked it I've known others who liked it. Also known some that won't do it again, because they felt mentally off the whole cycle.

 

[Straightforwa]

Good read. I think guys over complicate this guys are running all these different compounds peptides sarms when theyd grow more just off a gram of test. All these compounds does anyone hit the stage? I compete and am around top competitor's and believe me none of them are running and of this stuff. Its simple . Plus if your not going on stage or have a sponcer why take all these things when its not needed 500mgs of test training hard and eating should be plenty for most.

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.

I am not disagreeing with you as I stated "what little I could find on the subject" meaning real science articles. Could you expand your idea with more detail as far as LH desensitization?

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

Even though I wasn’t tagged ( probably for the reason I’m about to post) I’ll be the one to be a negative Nancy.

I stopped reading after your first paragraph an chalked everything up to broscience.
I see no sources listed referencing data based research. Yes anecdotal evidence has its place, but only in addition to data. There’s plenty of research on steroids.
I don’t advise anyone to read this and instead do your research from the following:
Seth Roberts “anabolic pharmacology”
William Llewelyn “anabolics” (w/e latest edition is)
Julius vida androgenic anabolic agents: chemistry and pharmacology.

If you’re going to be using anabolics, don’t be a cheap ass and invest in this so you really know wtf your doing/talking about.

Then of course reading up on post from users such as Patrick Arnold, henryV, brymaster, etc.

OK well I can just throw your comments out the window "if you stopped reading" ???
Half of this is actually based from scientific articles that I have in my Evernotes, another 25% based on knowledgeable AM members like fuiledpassion and others, and another 25% based on reputable steroid sites. The other thing you should have picked up on is... I was not writing a STICKEY that was ten pages log. IE I wrote Test replacements and their best partnered compound in 1 sentence without much info on why....because plenty of people can use google search and the search key on AM!!! This was just a Summery not an in depth guide to everything you need to know about running cycles without Test

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

Also I have not seen any evidence that suggest either of us is correct here. It's all broscience with this, so to make assumptions like this and state them as fact is definitely misleading. Now this could very well be the case no doubt.

However, hcg has its problems as well. It upregulates aromatase, possible desensitization in lyding cells, and it's insanely delicate compound—that can be hard to source the drug, that maintained high enough potency to sell for actual pharmacies, let alone for online— so I think using hcg on cycle is just as big of a risk as trying a clomid or torem on cycle, to maintain LH levels.

Give it a shot and see for yourself, I liked it I've known others who liked it. Also known some that won't do it again, because they felt mentally off the whole cycle.

I personally under the same name but only 1 z.. FRITZBLITZ wrote up a whole article about clomid during cycle. I wrote this years ago when HCG was starting to become the norm. You can probably find it if AM archives old articles. If I remember properly 1 study in animals [probably rats] responded to clomid as keeping small amounts of Test production [ meaning testes are awake] and minimizing testicle atrophy better than HCG. The article I read the animals were given more clomid than I would suggest being safe though, probably 2x what we would find reasonable during cycle.
I tried pulsing clomid at very small doses during a 16 week cycle. I had no side effects but I also don't normally get atrophy. When I did my PCT I felt like I was fully recovered by week 2! I still did a 6 week PCT. If I was to do this again I would DEFINITELY use Torem instead of clomid for tons of reasons. Mainly I have moved on to Enclomid and Torem for PCT, and Nolva used during cycle to fight bloat and other estro sides.

 

[RickyBlobby]

I don't think proviron is liver toxic..

 

[RickyBlobby]

I'm open to being educated as far as a SERM actually stimulating a necessary amount of Test while on cycle. I don't disagree that it can be used to keep your testicles awake. However from what little I have found on the subject concludes that a SERM wouldn't even be able to stimulate your testicles to half production.

only 25mg/day clomid kept my test level at 450 while on a moderate cycle of 400mg primo/ 50mg Dbol. Spurfy checks his LH and FSH on cycle while on torem, and even though its weaket than clomid his levels are always in normal range.

It's not about keeping natural testosterone being produced, as it won't with most anything except maybe anavar or 11-keto.

Rather it's about keeping LH and fsh levels within range, making sure the hypothalamus and pituitary are maintaining their function. So once any suppressive gear is out of you system your testicles will respond much faster. As "waking up" the hypothalamus is the slowest part of the process, imo.

Not true. Spurfy verified SERMS keep LH and FSH within range. The pituitary stays fully awake on SERMS

Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.

A SERM does accomplish this. Not an AI.

Well there is a study showing that you can keep normal LH levels on cycle with clomid.

Yes there is. And many user reports verifying the same thing.

I personally under the same name but only 1 z.. FRITZBLITZ wrote up a whole article about clomid during cycle. I wrote this years ago when HCG was starting to become the norm. You can probably find it if AM archives old articles. If I remember properly 1 study in animals [probably rats] responded to clomid as keeping small amounts of Test production [ meaning testes are awake] and minimizing testicle atrophy better than HCG. The article I read the animals were given more clomid than I would suggest being safe though, probably 2x what we would find reasonable during cycle.
I tried pulsing clomid at very small doses during a 16 week cycle. I had no side effects but I also don't normally get atrophy. When I did my PCT I felt like I was fully recovered by week 2! I still did a 6 week PCT. If I was to do this again I would DEFINITELY use Torem instead of clomid for tons of reasons. Mainly I have moved on to Enclomid and Torem for PCT, and Nolva used during cycle to fight bloat and other estro sides.

The fact that the SERM prevented atrophy attests to the fact that it keeps the HTPA awake

 

[rtmilburn]

I personally under the same name but only 1 z.. FRITZBLITZ wrote up a whole article about clomid during cycle. I wrote this years ago when HCG was starting to become the norm. You can probably find it if AM archives old articles. If I remember properly 1 study in animals [probably rats] responded to clomid as keeping small amounts of Test production [ meaning testes are awake] and minimizing testicle atrophy better than HCG. The article I read the animals were given more clomid than I would suggest being safe though, probably 2x what we would find reasonable during cycle.
I tried pulsing clomid at very small doses during a 16 week cycle. I had no side effects but I also don't normally get atrophy. When I did my PCT I felt like I was fully recovered by week 2! I still did a 6 week PCT. If I was to do this again I would DEFINITELY use Torem instead of clomid for tons of reasons. Mainly I have moved on to Enclomid and Torem for PCT, and Nolva used during cycle to fight bloat and other estro sides.

Ya i felt as if using serm on cycle allowed me to bounce back to normal MUCH faster, which help maintain my gains. I did still feel a bit supressed initially coming off, but not as bad as i have in the past; however, this could just be because of different steriods being used.

Is a serm on cycle superior to hcg? I dont know, and i don't think we will ever truly know the that answer. I can tell you sourcing good hcg is not an easy task, soucring good igf-1 is probably easier.

Side note who has been on a steady dose of trt, with stable bloodwork, then added hcg? I ask because im curious in the difference in your e2 and total T and shbg levels (shbg should raise with hcg, but i have a suspicious i might). Ive seen some studies but i have bot seen much real world data on this.

 

[rtmilburn]

I don't think proviron is liver toxic..

Its not.

 

[rtmilburn]

only 25mg/day clomid kept my test level at 450 while on a moderate cycle of 400mg primo/ 50mg Dbol. Spurfy checks his LH and FSH on cycle while on torem, and even though its weaket than clomid his levels are always in normal range.


Not true. Spurfy verified SERMS keep LH and FSH within range. The pituitary stays fully awake on SERMS

A SERM does accomplish this. Not an AI.


Yes there is. And many user reports verifying the same thing.


The fact that the SERM prevented atrophy attests to the fact that it keeps the HTPA awake

For the portion you qouted me on, i think you missed interpreted what I was saying, as i was saying exactly the same thing you did.

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

I don't think proviron is liver toxic..

My bad I got 2 compounds mixed up I'll edit

 

[brofessorx]

Also I have not seen any evidence that suggest either of us is correct here. It's all broscience with this, so to make assumptions like this and state them as fact is definitely misleading. Now this could very well be the case no doubt.

However, hcg has its problems as well. It upregulates aromatase, possible desensitization in lyding cells, and it's insanely delicate compound—that can be hard to source the drug, that maintained high enough potency to sell for actual pharmacies, let alone for online— so I think using hcg on cycle is just as big of a risk as trying a clomid or torem on cycle, to maintain LH levels.

I don’t see why so many new people to this field have such a problem buying these books. Maybe this is why none of the knowledgeable veterans post anymore.

Give it a shot and see for yourself, I liked it I've known others who liked it. Also known some that won't do it again, because they felt mentally off the whole cycle.

It’s not bro science it’s physiology.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4827511/
It is clearly known that, gonadotropin releasing hormones from the pituitary gland (LH, FSH) have growth promoting effects on testis development. Therefore, a decrease in LH release from the pituitary gland, may in turn result in a decreased testosterone level, and as a result, testicular atrophy occurs (31). In this regard, the present study, showed that the size of the testis of long-term mature and immature groups were lower than those of in the control group. Suprophysiological doses of ND were caused interaction between ND and AR in cells (13). ND-receptor complex affected hypothalamus- pituitary-gonadal axis by negative feedback and reduced the level of LH and FSH.

A decrease of LH form pituitary gland showed that Leydig cells were reduced and receptors on Leydig cell that interaction with LH was inactive. Following production of testosterone was decreased, which closely resemble with present study that the level of testosterone was decreased in the long- term mature and immature groups. Because of decreasing the level of FSH, Sertoli cells had not sufficient growth and development (32, 33).

I’d love to read the study showing clomid caused lh levels to remain elevated during supraphysiological dosages of steroids enough to prevent desensitization oh the testes to the effects of lh.
Lh/fsh production doesn’t ever stop even on supraphysiological dosages of steroids, it just slows. I’ve used serms on cycle and idk about lh production, but they did nothing for fsh as my balls still shriveled up.

I don’t see why so many people new to this field have such a problem buying these books. Back in the day, these were essential readings recommended to all newcomers here on this forum.

 

[RickyBlobby]

I’ve used serms on cycle and idk about lh production, but they did nothing for fsh as my balls still shriveled up.
.

I don't know how high your AAS dosage was, how high your SERM dosage was or anything, but there are several people on here who reported to have maintained testicular size onn cycle utilizing SERMS. There is a study backing t up too. You start at 50mg clomid EOD and titrate up to 50mg as needed to maintain testicular size.

 

[brofessorx]

Search for that study on clomid now

 

[rtmilburn]

It’s not bro science it’s physiology.
I’d love to read the study showing clomid caused lh levels to remain elevated during supraphysiological dosages of steroids enough to prevent desensitization oh the testes to the effects of lh.
Lh/fsh production doesn’t ever stop even on supraphysiological dosages of steroids, it just slows. I’ve used serms on cycle and idk about lh production, but they did nothing for fsh as my balls still shriveled up.

I think are you failing to see is the serms dont block the estrogen receptor, it modulates them. Its actually a reverse agonist at ER-a, so its sending the complete opposite signal estrogen would. This signals the body to produce GnRH, which signals for lh and fsh, and thus testosterone, but i dont need to tell you that.

Studies have shown you can keep lh and fsh levels stable with clomid while being administered a steriod.

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/48/2/222/2679057?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/36/2/285/2685989?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Im sure there is more but im not gonna spend hours digging this up.

Also ive yet to read anything indicating that the testes get desensitized to lh, without having it constanly present in high levels. That is broscience!

 

[rtmilburn]

Also im not buying no damn book these "gurus" have put together. I can research, i have access to a massive medical database, so im going to read these studies myself and learn myself.

 

[brofessorx]

I think are you failing to see is the serms dont block the estrogen receptor, it modulates them. Its actually a reverse agonist at ER-a, so its sending the complete opposite signal estrogen would. This signals the body to produce GnRH, which signals for lh and fsh, and thus testosterone, but i dont need to tell you that.

Studies have shown you can keep lh and fsh levels stable with clomid while being administered a steriod.
I posted the study using supraphysiological dosages of deca above

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/48/2/222/2679057?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/36/2/285/2685989?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Im sure there is more but im not gonna spend hours digging this up.

Also ive yet to read anything indicating that the testes get desensitized to lh, without having it constanly present in high levels. That is broscience!

Going through your studies, but the first study is using clomid and testing the effects on lh/fsh after administering lrh ( luteinizing releasing hormone)

The second study spends most of the abstract discussing the diurnal patterns of lh/fsh in the 4 test subjects stating clomid didn’t effect their patterns in two of them.
The last sentence states on day 4 test p was given, an it increased testosterone, but didn’t have an effect on the clomid treated mens lh/fsh. “testosterone propionate injection (25 mg) on day 4 of clomiphene treatment further elevated circulating T levels without lowering serum gonadotropins.”
Even though there were only 4 men, we still need more information, we don’t know if this is from one injection of test p, or how long it was ran for? Kind of left hanging on that one.

 

[rtmilburn]

Going through your studies, but the first study is using clomid and testing the effects on lh/fsh after administering lrh ( luteinizing releasing hormone)

You obviously havent read the whole thing. It also talk about co-administration with testosterone. I wish i could give you links to read them of my databases instead too, as posting these links i have to hope you have a database which can access the full text.

 

[RickyBlobby]

During chronic clomiphene therapy, neither T nor E when given in doses equal to twice their mean production rate in normal men, nor the nonaromatizable androgens, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone, in dosages equipotent to the infused T were capable of suppressing serum LH or FSH levels or altering the responses of LH and FSH to LRH administration.

 

[rtmilburn]

During chronic clomiphene therapy, neither T nor E when given in doses equal to twice their mean production rate in normal men, nor the nonaromatizable androgens, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone, in dosages equipotent to the infused T were capable of suppressing serum LH or FSH levels or altering the responses of LH and FSH to LRH administration.

Qouted perfectly for me.

 

[brofessorx]

I thank you for the research, I enjoyed reading it. I don’t expect anymore and after reading/searching through various other studies regret suggesting the reading materials. I also don’t have the time or patience to continue search for studies to support what I’m saying.
I have no dog in this fight, it’s not my body.
I hope some will read those books.

Lastly I was pointing out the lrh that was injected because it will cause an increase in lh to be made/ released similar to how hcg acts like artificial lh only this hormone causes your body to naturally produce more lh.

But I’m intrigued enough to give it a shot for 10 week cycle of test c/p next time.

 

[brofessorx]

Also im not buying no damn book these "gurus" have put together. I can research, i have access to a massive medical database, so im going to read these studies myself and learn myself.

I missed this, but the only possible “guru” out of the books could be William Llewelyn and his anabolics series of books. His writings fall in line with dan duchaine and his underground books. Although Llewelyn list references ( as do all other authors) which help tremendously on ones search for knowledge.
The other two authors are professionals in the field of steroid chemistry. Which is important in understanding steroids and how modifications to the structure can change things.
Most people just quote the info from “vida” and haven’t read or possibly even seen the book, the a:a numbers are at the end of the book for reference after reading and learning about steroids, their structure and function, which is covered in the first 4 chapters:
If you really want to understand steroids, it’s right there for whoever wants to learn.
I really don’t understand how anyone who likes steroids wouldn’t be fascinated by looking at the content of these chapters and want to learn more.

 

[DennisTheDane]

I think FRITZBLITZZ deserves some attention for this, as recently popping up a lot of questions regarding "Test bases".



rtmilburn alphagainz SFreed CJNator HIT4ME wesb2387 Tank999 DennisTheDane Juicedeez utz BEAST73 Alpha1agreda LeanEngineer coltonwalker Brandinooooo Sparkss Studhorse blueline438 lifted67 smith_69 rtmilburn FireTitan ChocolateClen justhere4comm matt8483 ryane87 nostrum420 mmorso thebigt Dirty Dan Bmac63095 TNlifting BEAST73 Tank999 BloodManor angcd3 habajaba mmorso cwages TheMyth DemntedCowboy lukehayd Rocket3015 Oconns28 jalfrey bloodnthunder jtmass Martyfnemec Studhorse MrKleen73

Thanks dad! Great reading!

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

Your backwards. Getting the htpa going again happens pretty quickly, even quicker with drugs. It’s getting the desensitized testicles to become sensitive to the effects of lh again that can be slow. This is why low dosages of hcg are recommended on cycle, to keep the testicles sensitive to the effects of lh.
Lh production never stops, it just slows dramatically.
A serm and/or an ai will not accomplish this.

This is 100% wrong. I have read many studies on the effects of HCG, and when on cycle your testicles are not desensitized to LH they are actually in a state of hyper sensitivity after going for a long period of time with a gerbil drip of LH. In fact your more at risk of overstimulating your ledigs by taking too much HCG and causing more harm than good. HCG doses are way too high for most ppl that take it. I have plenty of HCG but don't use it on cycle, I personally think it's not needed unless you suffer severely from testy atrophy. Also The HTPA is not fast at switching gears at all. If this was the case you could take a shot of Test, draw blood the next day, and have very low LH. Or vice versa you would only need a 1 week PCT rather than the traditional 4 but now 6 weeks that is more beneficial.

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

While I agree that test is not necessarily and your assessment on individual compounds without test. I feel you are way off base with serms.

So my write up on SERMS was as a viable Test replacement to run along a steroid cycle. We both agree it can be used to keep LH and FSH from falling flat and keep the testicles awake. Like I stated a did a whole write up on pulsing clomid rather than using HCG, so for the most part we are in agreement.

I have read what Rickyblobby [how do you do that @ thing?] has given an example of 50mg clomid ED to keep relatively normal LH, FSH, and Test while introducing exo AAS. Now assuming this can be duplicated there are 2 things that come to mind. 1 clomid has it's own side effects especially at high doses. When I PCT with clomid it is 50/50/25/25/12.5/12.5e2d so I'm only taking 50mg for 2 weeks. How great are the side effects that occur if you are taking 50mg clomid while your on a 16 week cycle fallowed by a 6 week PCT? The other thing that comes to mind is gaining a tolerance. Not only for clomid which I believe if taken at that dose for that long of a time is inevitable, But a tolerance to SERMS in general, I realize that each SERM acts in a slightly different way, but so do the many types of opiates from opium to heroin to oxycontin. They all have a slightly different way to interact with the opiod receptor but which ever mix or match you take continues to grow your tolerance for opiates. If your using clomid at 50mg ed for say 12+6 weeks twice a year I would assume you would gain a tolerance for SERMS after just 1 year JMO.