Nic Berg Beheading

[2gcorey]

what gets me with this entire thing is how little people understand it all. not all of them hate us, but many do and i fear more do everyday. i probably would hate our government also if i were in their shoes. i couldn't imagine an army rolling through my city and when some idiot takes a pop shot at them they open up with automatic fire. Its a job for police not a military when you're talking cities. that is if you're trying to setup a government or just take over the country. want to take it over by force, use an army! want to win the "hearts and minds" then leave the city to police.

so then a select few (maybe a lot) HATE our entire country. We all know this right? So now we become COMPLETELY disgusted at their tactics for killing a civilian? Are they suppose to charge our tanks with ak47's? We know they hate the entire country so we should know they will kill ANY american and psychological warfare is used by doing what they did on video. Does anyone remember our snipers use to scalp their victims in viet nam? Push people out of helicopters? This is when we are clearly a dominant force...

Now picture American's as the underdog being invaded...if we can scalp the dead, push live people out of helicopters when we clearly have the advantage, image us when we don't and we have to resort to gorilla warfare? I don't see why its SOOO horrible...its really all they can do. i don't agree with it, but damn people did you expect them beat on our tanks with sticks? when you're the underdog you do everything you can in war...i bet that video made a lot of americans wish we weren't there, they accomplished what they wanted!

i disagree with what they did, but its not hard to understand why they did it and i'd say they accomplished what they set out to do. Every country has people capable of that and I can assure you our military does also...if we were the underdogs things would change and all means necessary to win would be used. Its easy to play by the rules when you're kicking ass...

btw...from the looks of that video he died very fast. If you think thats bad I've seen some classified interigations while in SERE school what would make you puke! They actually killed him fairly quickly, thank God.

 

[BigVrunga]

I am trying to form an unbiased opinion and consider the rationale behind both sides of this thing. However if I, or any one of us, happened to be kidnapped or captured by these Islamic terrorist bastards, we'd probably suffer a fate similar to that of Nick Berg no matter how civilized and sophistacted we were when analyzing world politics and societal differences.

Because they are fellow human beings, I can empathize these people to some degree. But I live in America, and for the most part they hate and despise this country and everybody in it. So I dont have a moral issue with wiping Islam extreemism off the face of the Earth like the filth that it is.

I agree that the responsible militants need to be taken out and our own safety assured, but we have to remember that many of these militants were once average citizens, and public opinion on both sides is what causes a lack of understanding and may perpetuate the hate, again from both sides.

I totally agree with this statement, though. But how is it to be accomplished? You would have to go the root of WHY these people despise us so fervidly that they do the things that they do. Is it because we are allied with Israel? Or is the essence of the whole thing two religions that have bet at each others throats for the past few millenia?

Im inclined to believe that the latter has at least some part of it. How many years before both sides can appreciate and at least tolerate the differences between their respective cultures? Im sure that if someone I loved had died in the WTC or been filmed being decapitated by some Muslim zealots, I would be one of the average citizens turned militant hater. So where does it all end?

We are above barbarism, although with some of the absurd viewpoints around here I wonder how much further along we really are than they.

I think quite a bit further, for the most part. Last time I knew you couldnt kill your daughter or murder your wife legally in the United States. While our president might be somewhat of an idiot (my own opinion here), he dosent drop nerve gas on small rural towns to get his point across.

BV

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I will defer my comments to an article written by Terry Waite for the Index on Censorship magazine

Unfortunately Terry Waite used a typical liberal tactic of totally ignoring the analogy and changing the subject. There is a difference between war time and times of piece and we aren't talking about American citizens. He is looking threw the idealist rose color glasses. As you said the world is not black and white. Lets try Terry's philosophy out and see how it works.
The United States gets intelligence that Al Quada has 5 suite case nukes and 5 people that they infected with the Ebola virus. The Nukes are going to be placed in DC and the highest population cities in the United States. The people who have Ebola and going to fly around United States airports before they die. If they aren't caught millions will die. We know they are all currently in Iraq right now but all will be leaving in 24 hours when they will split up. We have just caught a few Leaders in the Al Quada group and some Iraqi terrorist. None of them will talk, in fact they believe god wants them to do this and they will be rewarded when they die. Lets bring in Terry to get the information for us. Terry says, " please, please please tell us" but the terrorist won't budge. Where do you go from there? We can't torture them to get the information and they won't talk. Well I guess you can say good bye to one million people in the united states. It doesn't look like the Terry Waite method of extracting information works too well.
Lets try it with the scenario with you child being kidnapped. The person who kidnapped you son or daughter won't talk. Are you going to treat the kidnapper nicely or are you going to do everything you can to get your child back?
My question to you is how would you get the information?

 

[VanillaGorilla]

because dealing with the fact that attitudes may have to change and understanding and appreciation of culture from both ends is hard work and a long road

You are assuming you can reason with someone who would send his child out with a bomb in his back pack. There attitudes hasn't changed much in 2000 years. This is what I mean by looking at thing threw rose colored glasses. The notion of bringing Dr. Phil in and talking about our differences with someone who would gladly blow them selves up along with you and Dr. Phil isn't a plausible idea.

I'm not saying you can tapdance around the militants over there, far from it. But in your mind you must keep the fact that many are average citizens whose attitudes and opinions are shaped and influenced heavily by the actons we take.

The problem is the terrorist are mixing themselves in with the average citizens. Some of the average citizens are also helping the terrorists. In any war innocent people are going to die. The terrorist in Iraq are killing their own people in their attacks.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

You are taking my example and stretching it to an extreme to make my statements appear ridiculous

I was trying to prove a point. In the movie godfather Al pacino was at a "business" meeting in another country. While he was there a terrorist killed himself and several other people. I think he asked a government official about it and he down played it and said that it was just a lowly dirt bag and there was nothing to worry about. Al Pacino's response was something to the effect of one person killed five that tells me that they can win. The same principle applies here. If we have a bunch of rules that the other guys don't follow that puts us at a major disadvantage. It's like getting in to a dual they had in the 1800s were you each take 5 paces and then shoot. If one side doesn't bother taking 5 paces and just shoots, he wins and the other person dies.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

No, there is never an instance where it is justified...

Let's say we captured one of the 9-11 terrorist we knew they were planning an attack on U.S soil. They wouldn't talk. Would you not do anything and let 9-11 happen which will cause 3000 people to die or get the information by any means possible?

So you torture them for the information, and if you get it, it's justified? And if there is no information, you just pass it off as it's never happened?

Yes........ we are not talking about American citizens here. If this wasn't a war and it was on American soil and we were dealing with American citizens , it would be a different story.

but are you guys really that surprised that it's taken this long for something like this to happen? Some of you guys might think humiliation is nothing compared to this, but to them, it is. To you, being piled naked with other men in a homosexual pile might not be bad, but to them, I'm sure many of those would rather be killed than be humiliated like that. And do you really think what's been caught on tape are the only things that's happened? You're naive if you think those are the only things that happened and if those are the worst.

First of all it did happen before this many times.The notion that this wouldn't of happened if we hadn't treat prisoners in the manner we did is completely false. Lets not forget these are prisoners. They are Sadam's old henchmen and terrorists. A reporter asked someone who is on duty at the prison who is being detained there. The solder told the reported he is the only member of the press who has asked that question.

But from what I've seen of the US treatments of the prisoners, it's not much better than what those terrorists did to Berg... and I'm sure it happened on a much larger scale.

You are comparing the gruesome murder of an innocent contractor to naked twister in a prison? It is asinine to compare the two. You basically have stopped short of saying he deserved it. I know in the perfect utopian world all of those prisoners are innocent but guess what? They are not. Some of the people in there probably killed American troops and/or tried to. Why aren't you so upset about that? Do you know what Sadam used to do to people in that prison? He cut off hands, fingers, tongues, and he even video taped raping a prisoners wife and daughter and showed it too him. Did you know in certain parts of the middle east that if a husbands not satisfied with his wife or is not happy with the dowry, they put her in a coffin and burn her alive. Are there good people there? I am sure that they are. There have been several stories of the people being happy with what we are doing over there. The opposition to us is a different story.

 

[houseman]

what gets me with this entire thing is how little people understand it all. not all of them hate us, but many do and i fear more do everyday. i probably would hate our government also if i were in their shoes. i couldn't imagine an army rolling through my city and when some idiot takes a pop shot at them they open up with automatic fire. Its a job for police not a military when you're talking cities. that is if you're trying to setup a government or just take over the country. want to take it over by force, use an army! want to win the "hearts and minds" then leave the city to police.

so then a select few (maybe a lot) HATE our entire country. We all know this right? So now we become COMPLETELY disgusted at their tactics for killing a civilian? Are they suppose to charge our tanks with ak47's? We know they hate the entire country so we should know they will kill ANY american and psychological warfare is used by doing what they did on video. Does anyone remember our snipers use to scalp their victims in viet nam? Push people out of helicopters? This is when we are clearly a dominant force...

Now picture American's as the underdog being invaded...if we can scalp the dead, push live people out of helicopters when we clearly have the advantage, image us when we don't and we have to resort to gorilla warfare? I don't see why its SOOO horrible...its really all they can do. i don't agree with it, but damn people did you expect them beat on our tanks with sticks? when you're the underdog you do everything you can in war...i bet that video made a lot of americans wish we weren't there, they accomplished what they wanted!

i disagree with what they did, but its not hard to understand why they did it and i'd say they accomplished what they set out to do. Every country has people capable of that and I can assure you our military does also...if we were the underdogs things would change and all means necessary to win would be used. Its easy to play by the rules when you're kicking ass...

btw...from the looks of that video he died very fast. If you think thats bad I've seen some classified interigations while in SERE school what would make you puke! They actually killed him fairly quickly, thank God.

Thought provoking, unbiased and onpoint.

I commend you for the courage to speak out in what are likely VERY unpopular comments.

A

 

[hamper19]

Really, what I think is a bigger problem is the technology. Cameras and video?! There are things that happen in war that the rest of the world just doesn't need to see or know about. I don't care for the embedded reporters. It's also bad judgment for the troops to be carrying around cameras and camcorders so they can docment their wartime experience. Believe me - they aren't going to be needing to 'refresh' their memory anytime soon. Cameras are going to end up doing much more harm than good. Politicians will play politics and more troops will die in the name of political correctness. They've been trying to fight PC wars since Vietnam (Tet??).

That is my stand on it....they need to get all the media out of the friggin middle of this. The point is it is war, not a reality TV show. **** happens...I say ban the news coverage and journalists...they are causing nothing but danger for people

h19

 

[MarcusG]

Soldiers were supposed to be using the camera's to document confessions not for their own perverted porn stashes. Ban news coverage and get sanitized news just like the first gulf war?


More interesting news:
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[shercolt]

Berg video

I watched the video today at around 11:00AM....out and about doing things and running errands since I didn't have to go in to work today, my mind still feels like mush....

The video changed me, it changes the way I feel, speak, look, think, and even how I go throughout my daily life. I no longer take little **** for granted. I'm proud to live on this great land, and if it means that I have to sacrifice my life for others, then so be it. I'm on the edge of my seat wanting to become a warrior. Knowing myself though, if and when I go over seas, I'd lose my mind, I'd crack up, start shooting every mutherfvcker that is male and non-allied. I get too caught up in sensitive ****, and I fvcking lose it. It's uncontrollable, thats just me...

However, when viewing the video, I thought to myself, why are the guys re-reading the same pages? Why does the poor guy sitting on the floor not look anything like Nick Berg?? Why did the screaming start WAY before they even took him down to the ground? Why does the screams sound so much like womens?? In fact, I actually thought there was some sort of "outside" audience that was showing sympathy for him, then when the beheading began, just thought to myself, "Well, that's probably just low-grade sound and shitty camera speed, etc."

I know, that sounds eactly like what SHeesh posted in the link, butthat was my first immpression as well, TO A "T"....

I only hope that it was propaganda, and not true. It would not surprise me the least. Let me tell you somethign else, if it WAS propaganda, then they sure as hell got the point across to me, and it worked...

The following isn't just a mere "ego trip" either. I need some closure for this, and until I get it, it will only continue to worsen for myself, and the people around me...

There are many unusual points in the Berg video. Notice how well-fed the kidnappers are, and how light-colored their skin is ? They stand like American military. The terrorist who has been alleged to have done the beheading has an artificial leg, yet he moves about with no problem. The timing displayed on the video is military time. Islamics don't use that.
When someone is beheaded, just like an animal, there is a massive amount of blood loss. There is no blood on the terrorist's hands or clothes. Very little blood on the decapitated head. And, when a person is decapitated, the jaw drops and they eyes are usually open. There are many other questionable aspects to this tape.

 

[spitboy2000]

Is the walk on the moon fake too?

There are many unusual points in the Berg video. Notice how well-fed the kidnappers are, and how light-colored their skin is ? They stand like American military. The terrorist who has been alleged to have done the beheading has an artificial leg, yet he moves about with no problem. The timing displayed on the video is military time. Islamics don't use that.
When someone is beheaded, just like an animal, there is a massive amount of blood loss. There is no blood on the terrorist's hands or clothes. Very little blood on the decapitated head. And, when a person is decapitated, the jaw drops and they eyes are usually open. There are many other questionable aspects to this tape.

 

[shercolt]

Is the walk on the moon fake too?

I don't know about the walk on the moon, but I, and many others, have found the Berg tape to be suspicious. When I first saw it, without the actual beheading, on CBS news, I said to myself, " Hmmm. Those men in the background stand like Americans, and they are too well fed compared to other tapes showing terrorists. Curious how this tape came out the day after the prison scandle broke. If you look at the whole tape, you go from seeing Berg sitting on the ground to laying on his stomach with his head pointed away from the camera. His body does not resist the cutting of his neck, which is a reflex. He does not squirm to get away. Further, once the voice box has been cut, a person cannot speak, much less scream. Do you really believe that it was just a "chance occurrence" that the # 1 terrorist we have in custody, the so called "19th plane jacker" had Berg's e-mail address from college ? Why was Berg carrying a copy of the Koran in his luggage ? Shall I go on ?

You mentioned the oddities that you saw. Think about it. Berg's beheading diverted the American public's attention away from what the U.S. was doing in the Iraqi prisons as seen in the photos. Now, we were shown a much more horrible act of violence than what we did: Berg's bloodless beheading.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I don't know about the walk on the moon, but I, and many others, have found the Berg tape to be suspicious. When I first saw it, without the actual beheading, on CBS news, I said to myself, " Hmmm. Those men in the background stand like Americans,

Chemo addressed some of the issues that you brought up. How do you know what middle Eastern people stand like?

Do you really believe that it was just a "chance occurrence" that the # 1 terrorist we have in custody, the so called "19th plane jacker" had Berg's e-mail address from college ? Why was Berg carrying a copy of the Koran in his luggage ? Shall I go on ?

Yes. Where are you getting this info from? Post the links.

Think about it. Berg's beheading diverted the American public's attention away from what the U.S. was doing in the Iraqi prisons as seen in the photos.

It really didn't. The liberal press focused mainly of the prison scandal. The New York Times had close to 40 front page stories on it. I doubt Berg got half of that. I personally don't think the prison scandal was that big of a deal. The press hates bush so they focused on it as long as they could.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

It's funny how people are selective in which conspiracy theories they subscribe to. Clinton......... nope didn't do anything wrong. Bombing an aspirin factory at the height of the Lewinski scandal? That's just a crazy conspiracy theory. Bush is evil and everything he does is a conspiracy.

 

[jjjd]

i'm sorry, i was busy looking out the window at the black helicopter above my house, and the illuminati has been invading my head with a buzzing sound, what were you saying?

 

[shercolt]

First, I work with a lot of mid Eastern men and they do not stand like the captors in the video. Compare it to other videos of terrorists. Berg's captors were too well-fed. Compare to other videos. Why did the main captor keep going back to the same page of his statement as he "read" it ?

Even "Rummy" was seen and heard (even on Fox News) as stating that it was just a "coincidence" that the "19th hijacker" had Berg's e-mail address. Even O'Reilly said that he found it "suspicious" at the very least.

If you have been keeping up with the prison scandle, you will read and hear, almost weekly, that a "higher up" has blamed the person above him or her in the military hierarchy. O'Reilly has stopped talking about this, but once in a while on Fox News they will mention the "next person" to point the finger upwards. It was not just a group of out of control men and women as Hannity would have one believe.

 

[NPursuit]

Who gives a **** what happened to those prisoners. I don't see the Iraqi's mourning for the U.S. civilians or soldiers over there getting killed trying to rebuild and secure their **** ass country, because they didn't have the strength or the balls to do it themselves. I'm fed up with seeing our people die over there for them.

 

[lifted]

You gotta think though....even if all those things checked out from that article, then why would and how would the video get posted on an Islam web-site??

Think about it, that dude (the terrorist leader, forget his name) that was said to be responsible for the beheading would be calling out the US in some for or another and saying that he wasn't responsible...(think about the train bombings in Spain not long ago)

Now this same site is also the one that just recently posted those pics and info about that saudi-US native that got kidnapped and taken to wherever...so, whomever was responsible for the beheading, is also responsible for the new kidnapping....and in this case, it would be the US that keeps getting flack for a conspiracy and propaganda...

The only way that it could happen was if the US actually owned that website, had a middle-eastern civilian run it in disquise, and then somehow post about the new kidnapping....

Although, I don't understand why the CIA can't track the IP down and at least get a lead as to where the terrorists were hosted from...

 

[shercolt]

Berg

Who gives a **** what happened to those prisoners. I don't see the Iraqi's mourning for the U.S. civilians or soldiers over there getting killed trying to rebuild and secure their **** ass country, because they didn't have the strength or the balls to do it themselves. I'm fed up with seeing our people die over there for them.

It is a person's choice to give a **** if they want to. Why should they mourn for anyone but themselves. We are like aliens to them. Democracy is just as alien, too. However, the Iraqis were so beaten down by Sadam for so long that they did not have the strength or the balls to free themselves. I, like thousands of other Americans, am tired, too, of seeing our young people die over there for them. However, they are dying because of an administration that is the most secretive and deceptive in recent history.

You are too young to remember that Pres. Lyndon Johnson lied to the American people and to Congress about the N. Vietnamese attacking U.S. ships in the infamous Gulf of Tonkin crisis. Kennedy lied about the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba. Rosevelt lied about Pearl Harbor. It appears now that the U.S. knew that Japan was going to strike Pearl Harbor. My point is, the Bush administration continues to lie to the American people so he and his fellow dictators will have an excuse to "liberate" Iraq, to take away our freedoms. We are trying to impose a cultural - religious change on the Iraqi people. Would you want Islamics to come to America and get rid of our government, imposing their will on us ?

 

[shercolt]

The website that originally posted the Berg video was only up long enough for ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, and Fox News to download a copy. The website then went down. Al Jazeer news was unable to get a copy before the site went down.

The terrorist who is alleged to have beheaded Berg was reported to have been murdered or died nearly a year ago. Can't say you did not do it if you are already dead. If he was who he, or another, stated he was on the tape then why cover your face. Why hide ?

I am not sure if that same site is now up again and posting the pics of the kidnapped American. Regardless, the US has the technology to locate where the website originates. Finally, how was the U.S. able to name all of the kidnappers within two days of the beheading ?

You gotta think though....even if all those things checked out from that article, then why would and how would the video get posted on an Islam web-site??

Think about it, that dude (the terrorist leader, forget his name) that was said to be responsible for the beheading would be calling out the US in some for or another and saying that he wasn't responsible...(think about the train bombings in Spain not long ago)

Now this same site is also the one that just recently posted those pics and info about that saudi-US native that got kidnapped and taken to wherever...so, whomever was responsible for the beheading, is also responsible for the new kidnapping....and in this case, it would be the US that keeps getting flack for a conspiracy and propaganda...

The only way that it could happen was if the US actually owned that website, had a middle-eastern civilian run it in disquise, and then somehow post about the new kidnapping....


Although, I don't understand why the CIA can't track the IP down and at least get a lead as to where the terrorists were hosted from...

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Even "Rummy" was seen and heard (even on Fox News) as stating that it was just a "coincidence" that the "19th hijacker" had Berg's e-mail address. Even O'Reilly said that he found it "suspicious" at the very least

Do you have any links to post on this subject?

If you have been keeping up with the prison scandle, you will read and hear, almost weekly, that a "higher up" has blamed the person above him or her in the military hierarchy. O'Reilly has stopped talking about this, but once in a while on Fox News they will mention the "next person" to point the finger upwards. It was not just a group of out of control men and women as Hannity would have one believe.

Than it was most likely a psyops type of program to get information/ and or build an information network. I don't have a problem with this. These are not innocent people we are dealing with.

It is a person's choice to give a **** if they want to. Why should they mourn for anyone but themselves. We are like aliens to them. Democracy is just as alien, too. However, the Iraqis were so beaten down by Sadam for so long that they did not have the strength or the balls to free themselves. I, like thousands of other Americans, am tired, too, of seeing our young people die over there for them. However, they are dying because of an administration that is the most secretive and deceptive in recent history.

Why should we care about captured terrorist playing naked twister with a pair of drawers on their head? You keep presuming that all the prisoners are innocent which they are not. Second, Iraq never had democracy in 2000 years. I think the closest thing they had was a king who didn't last too long.

However, they are dying because of an administration that is the most secretive and deceptive in recent history

I think you will find if you did some reading on the Clinton administration that they would come pretty close to the deceptive, secretive, and corrupt in recent history.

You are too young to remember that Pres. Lyndon Johnson lied to the American people and to Congress about the N. Vietnamese attacking U.S. ships in the infamous Gulf of Tonkin crisis. Kennedy lied about the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba. Rosevelt lied about Pearl Harbor. It appears now that the U.S. knew that Japan was going to strike Pearl Harbor. My point is, the Bush administration continues to lie to the American people so he and his fellow dictators will have an excuse to "liberate" Iraq, to take away our freedoms. We are trying to impose a cultural - religious change on the Iraqi people. Would you want Islamics to come to America and get rid of our government, imposing their will on us ?

Post some links on news stories proving that Bush deliberately lied about going into Iraq. If there is proof he should be impeached. There have been several people who like to throw the Bush lied term around. My guess is they are just parroting the Michael Moore crowd. Every time I ask some one to offer proof on the subject no one does. As I have said many times at this point you can say that the Bush administration made some really bad decisions but you can't say they lied. I am not convinced that there were no WMDs. The problem I have is the bait and switch they used. The said our reason for going in was that Iraq presented a clear and present danger to the united states and now it'd about democracy for people who hate us.

 

[NPursuit]

It is a person's choice to give a **** if they want to. Why should they mourn for anyone but themselves.

They shouldn't, which is why we shouldn't care if they are free or not. If they wanted democracy and or freedom they would have fought for it themselves like we did. Although at the same time we are losing our freedoms in this country as everyday passes.

 

[shercolt]

Re: Berg

See below VanillaGorilla[
QUOTE=VanillaGorilla]Do you have any links to post on this subject?
If you go back into the archives of any paper or news program, say Fox News, right after the Berg video was released, you will find a lot of info about Berg.
Not all of the prisoners were innocent, but not all were guilty. It has been estimated by the Red Cross that 80 % of the detainees were simply picked-up off the streets of Bagdad.

The degree to which the military had the prisoners involved in homosexual behaviors says more about those military personnel's own unresolved issues than anything else. Just because someone is guilty does not mean that they have to be sexually humiliated. If you think about it, why go to all the trouble of doing that in the first place. Keep the prisoners locked in their filthy hot cells if they are guilty.

Iraq has never had a modern democracy. Their people and culture pre-date the birth of Christ. Iraq is really the birthplace of civilizaton. Check your history books. Their kingdoms lasted hundreds of years. If you admit that they have never had a democracy, why would you think that they would want one now, much less understand one now ?

Clinton was a lier, too. However, in the examples I gave you, except for the Bay of Pigs invasion, all of those lies lead to a war. Kennedy's lies about Cuba almost lead to a war. Clinton's lies did not. The only way to prove that Bush "deliberately" lied would be to prove a "conspiracy" to lie. You think Cheney and Rummy are going to admit to that ? Bush was so afraid of the 9/11 commission that he had to have the VP there so they could get their stories straight.

Bush's switch and bait was not to give the Iraqi people a democracy. It was for a "regime change." That meant get Sadam out regardless. But wait. Lets see what happens after June 30th. Lets see if Bush et al. gives the Iraqis a democracy. Lets see what Bush's reaction is to a growing civil war between the Sunis and the Kurds. Bush will not let control of Iraq go into the hands of someone else.

Than it was most likely a psyops type of program to get information/ and or build an information network. I don't have a problem with this. These are not innocent people we are dealing with.

Why should we care about captured terrorist playing naked twister with a pair of drawers on their head? You keep presuming that all the prisoners are innocent which they are not. Second, Iraq never had democracy in 2000 years. I think the closest thing they had was a king who didn't last too long. Got to go, guy. I will check back Friday.



I think you will find if you did some reading on the Clinton administration that they would come pretty close to the deceptive, secretive, and corrupt in recent history.


Post some links on news stories proving that Bush deliberately lied about going into Iraq. If there is proof he should be impeached. There have been several people who like to throw the Bush lied term around. My guess is they are just parroting the Michael Moore crowd. Every time I ask some one to offer proof on the subject no one does. As I have said many times at this point you can say that the Bush administration made some really bad decisions but you can't say they lied. I am not convinced that there were no WMDs. The problem I have is the bait and switch they used. The said our reason for going in was that Iraq presented a clear and present danger to the united states and now it'd about democracy for people who hate us.[/QUOTE]

 

[MarcusG]

.....
Why should we care about captured terrorist playing naked twister with a pair of drawers on their head? You keep presuming that all the prisoners are innocent which they are not. Second, Iraq never had democracy in 2000 years. I think the closest thing they had was a king who didn't last too long.
....

The same reason why we should care if Jessica Lynch had alligator clips on her genitals singing the athem balancing on an box.

Prison officials told the ICRC that 75-90% of detainees were innocent. IMO most were rounded up along with the bad by US troops who have little idea on whats going on and don't speak the language.

Is naked twister and head panties an euphemism for psychological torture now? I guess E+E training psy torture must be such a fun thing. And what about some people being beaten to death? Can we call it the anvil chorus?

And its getting worse with minors getting tortured now along with the incarceration of women (wives/mistresses) to get some people to talk.

 

[shercolt]

hidden prisoners

Quick note: Why were Rummy and Tenet hiding certain prisoners ? Later
[
QUOTE=MarcusG]The same reason why we should care if Jessica Lynch had alligator clips on her genitals singing the athem balancing on an box.

Prison officials told the ICRC that 75-90% of detainees were innocent. IMO most were rounded up along with the bad by US troops who have little idea on whats going on and don't speak the language.

Is naked twister and head panties an euphemism for psychological torture now? I guess E+E training psy torture must be such a fun thing. And what about some people being beaten to death? Can we call it the anvil chorus?

And its getting worse with minors getting tortured now along with the incarceration of women (wives/mistresses) to get some people to talk.[/QUOTE]

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Not all of the prisoners were innocent, but not all were guilty. It has been estimated by the Red Cross that 80 % of the detainees were simply picked-up off the streets of Bagdad.

The red cross isn't exactly a reliable source of information. The have a far left political ideology. They want us to charge Sadam or "let him go". I think that pretty much says it all.

The degree to which the military had the prisoners involved in homosexual behaviors says more about those military personnel's own unresolved issues than anything else. Just because someone is guilty does not mean that they have to be sexually humiliated. If you think about it, why go to all the trouble of doing that in the first place. Keep the prisoners locked in their filthy hot cells if they are guilty.

This is a war and these are not American citizens. You leave them in a hot cell they won't talk and we won't get the information we need. If for example we determined the best way to break down the prisoners is sexual humiliation and they get information to prevent attacks and save Americans lives I don't have a problem with it.

Iraq has never had a modern democracy. Their people and culture pre-date the birth of Christ. Iraq is really the birthplace of civilization. Check your history books. Their kingdoms lasted hundreds of years. If you admit that they have never had a democracy, why would you think that they would want one now, much less understand one now ?

That's what I just said in my last post. I am not disagreeing with you on that.

Bush's switch and bait was not to give the Iraqi people a democracy. It was for a "regime change." That meant get Sadam out regardless. But wait. Lets see what happens after June 30th. Lets see if Bush et al. gives the Iraqis a democracy. Lets see what Bush's reaction is to a growing civil war between the Sunis and the Kurds. Bush will not let control of Iraq go into the hands of someone else.

Bush's initial reason for going into Iraq was that we had information that they had or were trying to acquire WMDs and we a clear and present danger to America.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Clinton was a lier, too. However, in the examples I gave you, except for the Bay of Pigs invasion, all of those lies lead to a war. Kennedy's lies about Cuba almost lead to a war. Clinton's lies did not. The only way to prove that Bush "deliberately" lied would be to prove a "conspiracy" to lie. You think Cheney and Rummy are going to admit to that ? Bush was so afraid of the 9/11 commission that he had to have the VP there so they could get their stories straight.

What are you talking about with the bay of pigs? The bay of pigs was a CIA operation. Kennedy apparently was clashing with them. Kennedy pulled the air support from the operation with lead many Cuban revolutionaries and people in the CIA to hate him. He fired the head of the CIA Alan Dulles shortly after that in my memory serves me correctly.

The only way to prove that Bush "deliberately" lied would be to prove a "conspiracy" to lie. You think Cheney and Rummy are going to admit to that ?

There are other ways such as paper trails, memos, and witnesses. If there was any of this it would be splashed on the front page of the new York times until he was impeached or resigned.

Clinton's lies did not

Clinton did a hell of allot more than lie.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Prison officials told the ICRC that 75-90% of detainees were innocent. IMO most were rounded up along with the bad by US troops who have little idea on whats going on and don't speak the language.

That's funny because on one of the news shows I was watching a reported asked one the solders stationed at the prison who was being held there and the solder told him he was the first member of the press to ask him this.

Is naked twister and head panties an euphemism for psychological torture now? I guess E+E training psy torture must be such a fun thing. And what about some people being beaten to death? Can we call it the anvil chorus?

This is a war, they aren't American citizens, and they aren't on American soil. If they have two people with information about a car bomb plan that's going to kill people and they kill one of them and the other talks than we saved lives and killed someone who would have hesitated to kill one of us. If you want to continues to believe that all these people are innocent that's your choice. I wouldn't take the red crosses word as being accurate though which seems to be what your basing your opinions on.

And its getting worse with minors getting tortured now along with the incarceration of women (wives/mistresses) to get some people to talk.

Again were are you getting this information from? Woman can be burned alive in the middle east just because their spouses aren't happy with them. Many people are also harboring terrorists and helping them get away.

 

[MarcusG]

That's funny because on one of the news shows I was watching a reported asked one the solders stationed at the prison who was being held there and the solder told him he was the first member of the press to ask him this.

huh? Misdirection? It still doesn't refute the fact that most of them were innocent. Taguba's report stated 60% innocent. Coalition intelligence officials stated 70-90%. Did Rummy get angry about that figure stated by the ICRC?

This is a war, they aren't American citizens, and they aren't on American soil. If they have two people with information about a car bomb plan that's going to kill people and they kill one of them and the other talks than we saved lives and killed someone who would have hesitated to kill one of us. If you want to continues to believe that all these people are innocent that's your choice. I wouldn't take the red crosses word as being accurate though which seems to be what your basing your opinions on.

Ok, if the ICRC was leftist then why did they keep mum all the while until a big paper broke the news as required by their neutral status?
The fact is those 2 people with information about the car bomb is inaccurate. US troops are mostly interrupting people finishing their rice pilaf dinners and then throwing them naked into cells with head panties.

Again were are you getting this information from? Woman can be burned alive in the middle east just because their spouses aren't happy with them. Many people are also harboring tårrorists and helping them get away.

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Taguba's report also stated among the list of abuses:-
Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees.

And where have you heard about women being immolated for keeping their spouses 'happy'? And do you have statistics on the 'many' people actively helping terrorists? What has it got to do with prisoner abuse?

 

[VanillaGorilla]

huh? Misdirection? It still doesn't refute the fact that most of them were innocent. Taguba's report stated 60% innocent. Coalition intelligence officials stated 70-90%. Did Rummy get angry about that figure stated by the ICRC?

You are basing this information on the Red Cross. As I have said before the IRC has a political agenda. They want us to charge Sadam or set them free. Set him free? That position alone is enough to discredit them. You can not take the word of the red cross as fact yet you continually do so and base your entire argument on that figure.

Ok, if the ICRC was leftist then why did they keep mum all the while until a big paper broke the news as required by their neutral status?

Look up the IRC's positions on some topics you will find they are consistent with someone on the left.

The fact is those 2 people with information about the car bomb is inaccurate

First of all the two people with the information was a hypothetical situation though it could or did happen. I believe something like that did happen when a solder ( can't remember his name) was questioning an Iraqi who wouldn't talk. He fired a shot near him and told him the next one would kill him. The prisoner talked and they got information that saved lives. Any way he got into trouble as a result of his actions which IMO is ridiculous.

US troops are mostly interrupting people finishing their rice pilaf dinners and then throwing them naked into cells with head panties.

Marcus if you want to believe that all Iraqis are doing nothing wrong and Americans are doing everything wrong that is your business. The problem is it's simply not true. The problem with the war is that we are fighting terrorist mixed in with the general population. Judging from the Iraqi people cheering when a car bomb goes off and kills Americans, Do you think it's likely or unlikely that if a group of terrorists started shooting at troops these people who harbor them in their homes or help them get away?

Taguba's report also stated among the list of abuses:-
Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees.

Why shouldn't they video tape and photograph terrorists? If we let them go then we know who they are and could possibly set up some surveillance on them or do you mean like snuff films?

And where have you heard about women being immolated for keeping their spouses 'happy'?

Anthropology classes in college and several news outlets like 20/20 and sixty minutes have done stories on the subject. It's pretty well known.

And do you have statistics on the 'many' people actively helping terrorists? What has it got to do with prisoner abuse?

Marcus the military isn't going to release something like that. It's a no brainier to figure out. What it has to do with the prison abuse I will repeat again. The people who are in there are in there for a reason. It's either a psy-ops program or a few twisted individuals. If it's a psy-ops program then most likely they are trying to break down the terrorists to see what they know and to set up a informant network so in the future we can get information from them or follow them. This information could be when there will be attacks on our troops or the Iraqi government infrastructure. The end result is saving American troops lives and saving Iraqi citizens lives.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

The first story is credible and the second one probably isn't. The source of the story comes from " stories you won't see on cnn" and coming from Britain. Also the information is from a journalist for al-Jazeera television. They also say "The allegations cannot be verified independently". Which like several other stories you posted means that the entire article is based on one persons testimony and there is no evidence to support the persons story. They are investigating the first one.

 

[shercolt]

Friday

The Bay of Pigs operation was an attempt to overthrow Castro, change the regime because it was communist, and there were Soviet nuclear weapons aimed at the U.S. However, Kennedy underestimated Castro and his supporters and pulled out of a direct war with Castro. Bush et al did not like Sadam's regime, wanted to change it, and there were WMD (i.e., missiles) which" could reach the eastern coast of the U.S." Bush et al. underestimated the resistance in Iraq. Sound familiar ?

Underlings, historically, take the fall for their commanding officer(s). In cases with extreme sensitivity, they are told that, if caught, or if the info leaks out, they will take the fall, they will take the blame. It is part of their duty to assure continuity at the higher levels of the military and government. Paper trails are becoming a thing of the past. There will be no paper trails in the November election in the state of Florida, and many other states.. The new voting machines do not print out a copy of what the voter just voted for or against. These machines have already been shown to be susceptible to hacking. An elected attorney, in the attorney general of California's office, is attempting to prevent the use of these machines in the November elections, unless they are altered so as to generate a paper copy. The republicans are figthting this. My point is that critical documentation is becoming scarce.

Yes, Clinton did a hell of a lot more than lie, but he did not get us to invade a foreign country while slowly eroding our personal liberties. Why does the government need to know which books I check out at a public library ? When asked yesterday why it took so long for NORAD to scramble fighter jets after the remaining hijacked planes, the Commander of NORAD responded, and I am paraphrasing here: " We need to be more concerned about fighting terrorists in Afganistan."

What are you talking about with the bay of pigs? The bay of pigs was a CIA operation. Kennedy apparently was clashing with them. Kennedy pulled the air support from the operation with lead many Cuban revolutionaries and people in the CIA to hate him. He fired the head of the CIA Alan Dulles shortly after that in my memory serves me correctly.

There are other ways such as paper trails, memos, and witnesses. If there was any of this it would be splashed on the front page of the new York times until he was impeached or resigned.

Clinton did a hell of allot more than lie.

 

[MarcusG]

You are basing this information on the Red Cross. As I have said before the IRC has a political agenda. They want us to charge Sadam or set them free. Set him free? That position alone is enough to discredit them. You can not take the word of the red cross as fact yet you continually do so and base your entire argument on that figure.

Look up the IRC's positions on some topics you will find they are consistent with someone on the left.

The point I was making was that regardless or not the IRC is leftist, they kept mum about prison torture which they knew about until the NYT/WSJ broke the news. They behaved in a neutral manner w/r throughout the prison scandal.

And you haven;t answered why Taguba's report stated 60% innocent and coalition intelligence officials stated 70-90% which was not refuted by the US.

In your mind, any centrist/leftist entity must be spewing out lies and distortions.

First of all the two people with the information was a hypothetical situation though it could or did happen. I believe something like that did happen when a solder ( can't remember his name) was questioning an Iraqi who wouldn't talk. He fired a shot near him and told him the next one would kill him. The prisoner talked and they got information that saved lives. Any way he got into trouble as a result of his actions which IMO is ridiculous.

The hypothetical situation you chose is an atypical one which does not reflect whats going on in the prison torture. I mildly support the officer West for his unlawful actions in that situation for several reasons. If you read West's story, he was quoted that he could be wrong about Hamoodi (the man he fired his pistol at) since a search of 'collaborator's house turned up nothing. Hamoodi maintains that he started blabbing out names out of fear. So even your example how how torture should be conducted didn't help any and possibly converted one Iraqi to the dark side.

Why shouldn't they video tape and photograph terrorists? If we let them go then we know who they are and could possibly set up some surveillance on them or do you mean like snuff films?

I was refering to Taguba's report which listed abuses not mug shots of mostly innocent prisoners - "Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees".
Filming someone naked with a cock in his/her mouth is not a mug shot.
Remember that the photos released publically to date are just the tip of the iceberg and there are worse ones.

Marcus the military isn't going to release something like that. It's a no brainier to figure out. What it has to do with the prison abuse I will repeat again. The people who are in there are in there for a reason. It's either a psy-ops program or a few twisted individuals. If it's a psy-ops program then most likely they are trying to break down the terrorists to see what they know and to set up a informant network so in the future we can get information from them or follow them. This information could be when there will be attacks on our troops or the Iraqi government infrastructure. The end result is saving American troops lives and saving Iraqi citizens lives.

Nice if you can prove that torture was only confined to a few twisted individuals as you so claim.

 

[NPursuit]

I was just at home for lunch and MSNBC reported the American hostage had been killed. The reporter had the nerve to call one of the hostage's friend and tell him and ask him how he felt about it. He didn't want to talk about it, so the reporter said I understand we will respect your privacy.

Yeah right the media has sunk to a new low. Scumbags!

 

[shercolt]

Another beheading

It has been reported that the American hostage was beheaded by his captors. The reporter here who called a friend of the victim's family is just slightly above the terrorists on the food chain. The terrorists are making a very big mistake in terms of underestimating the tolerance of Americans. This is, perhaps," the straw that broke the camel's back" for most Americans. You can bet your bottom dollar right now that there are untold numbers of Americans hearing this news who are plotting to get even with the terrorists, the countries from which they come, and anyone who closely resembles them in appearance.

Those who "sympathize" with the terrorists, the Islamic Fundamentalists, Al Queda, etc.in this country, and elsewhere, need to be put on notice now. It is over with. Your time is up.

I was just at home for lunch and MSNBC reported the American hostage had been killed. The reporter had the nerve to call one of the hostage's friend and tell him and ask him how he felt about it. He didn't want to talk about it, so the reporter said I understand we will respect your privacy.

Yeah right the media has sunk to a new low. Scumbags!

 

[VanillaGorilla]

The Bay of Pigs operation was an attempt to overthrow Castro, change the regime because it was communist, and there were Soviet nuclear weapons aimed at the U.S. However, Kennedy underestimated Castro and his supporters and pulled out of a direct war with Castro.

So what are you saying Kennedy lied about?

Bush et al did not like Sadam's regime, wanted to change it, and there were WMD (i.e., missiles) which" could reach the eastern coast of the U.S." Bush et al. underestimated the resistance in Iraq. Sound familiar ?

WMDs aren't just missiles they can include biological weapons and suit case nukes ect.

Yes, Clinton did a hell of a lot more than lie, but he did not get us to invade a foreign country while slowly eroding our personal liberties.

That's not true. We invaded Somalia ect. Also look up what the Clinton administration wanted to do with the clipper chip.

Underlings, historically, take the fall for their commanding officer(s). In cases with extreme sensitivity, they are told that, if caught, or if the info leaks out, they will take the fall, they will take the blame. It is part of their duty to assure continuity at the higher levels of the military and government. Paper trails are becoming a thing of the past. There will be no paper trails in the November election in the state of Florida, and many other states.. The new voting machines do not print out a copy of what the voter just voted for or against. These machines have already been shown to be susceptible to hacking. An elected attorney, in the attorney general of California's office, is attempting to prevent the use of these machines in the November elections, unless they are altered so as to generate a paper copy. The republicans are fighting this. My point is that critical documentation is becoming scarce.

I agree with you there should be a paper trail with voting but what does that have to do with what we are talking about. Witness ect. brought Nixon down. There were people who came forward against Clinton as well. Also there were wide spread accounts of Democratic vote fraud in the 2000 presidential election as well as others in recently.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

George W. Bush claimed Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction
John Kerry claimed Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction
Bill Clinton claimed Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction
France claimed Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction

Lets not solely blame Bush.

We were all under the impression they had them, and they still might.
Evidence surfaces everyday of the links between Al-Queda and Iraq.

We need to drop the conspiracy theories, the finger pointing (on both sides), and come together as Americans. Terrorists don't give a f_ck if you're a democrat or republican. remember that.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

The point I was making was that regardless or not the IRC is leftist, they kept mum about prison torture which they knew about until the NYT/WSJ broke the news. They behaved in a neutral manner w/r throughout the prison scandal.

Saying we should release Sadam is neutral?

And you haven;t answered why Taguba's report stated 60% innocent and coalition intelligence officials stated 70-90% which was not refuted by the US.

You are parroting the new Yorker Magazine. Here is what it actually saysAccording to BG Karpinski, this category of detainee [detainees accused of committing "Crimes Against the Coalition"] makes up more than 60% of the total detainee population, and is the fastest growing category. However, MG Fast, according to BG Karpinski, routinely denied the board's recommendations to release detainees in this category who were no longer deemed a threat and clearly met the requirements for release. Notice the word inocent doesn't appear in there.

In your mind, any centrist/leftist entity must be spewing out lies and distortions.

Most leftist do spew out lies and distortions. All you have to do is look at the major news papers. The 9-11 commission was getting upset at the headlines that the papers were using to describe their findings were distorting what they found. People such as Michael Moore use selective editing. For example, he puts in a movie that a kid went into school and shoots another student but leaves out the kid lived in a crack house and previously stabbed another student. Why did he do this? because that would take away from Moore cause to Ban all guns. The same thing with the papers. Leftist believe the "cause" is the most important thing and facts can't get in the way of it. Also I wouldn't link leftist and centrists like that they are totally different.

I was refering to Taguba's report which listed abuses not mug shots of mostly innocent prisoners - "Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees".
Filming someone naked with a cock in his/her mouth is not a mug shot.
Remember that the photos released publically to date are just the tip of the iceberg and there are worse ones.

As I said many times before you have two choices in this. Either this was the doing of some really deranged people or it was a psy -ops operation. If they were video taping them it could have been for their private snuff films or to blackmail them and break them down. If it's the latter they were investigating it before the story broke and they are currently being prosecuted. If it's the former then they were using the films and pictures to break them down which I don't have a problem with. I am more concerned with the safety of our troops. It's pretty clear that you want to believe that they are all innocent, that everyone in Iraq is innocent, and the only wrong doing is being done by us. This is some pretty poor logic and one dimensional reasoning. Am I saying we never do anything wrong? No. War is a horrible thing and some pretty appalling things can happen but to continually thinking that everyone in the prison is innocent just isn't true. You are basing your opinions on the word of a leftist organization and a New Yorker article ( who sure as hell aren't centrists) and author who did some sloppy journalism.

Nice if you can prove that torture was only confined to a few twisted individuals as you so claim.

If you read what I said the twisted people were the prison guards.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Good points D59. Also Clinton was offered OBL and he declined. He was caught on tape talking about it, which I guess he didn't realize it was taped. I believe he was asked about it a few times and he said it wasn't true (in a Clinton way). I guess Dan Rather asked him about it on the Sunday interview where Dan goes down on Bill like a circus seal. Dan reportedly said he asked Clinton about it and he said it was Bull. Newsmax who is a conservative new web site contacted 60 minutes about it. They Asked them if they would listen to the tape which they declined to do. 60 min said Dan was mistaken in his recollection and Clinton gave the same kind of answer that was on the tape. Any way they speculated that they would edit that part out of the interview.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I was just at home for lunch and MSNBC reported the American hostage had been killed. The reporter had the nerve to call one of the hostage's friend and tell him and ask him how he felt about it. He didn't want to talk about it, so the reporter said I understand we will respect your privacy.

Yeah right the media has sunk to a new low. Scumbags!

That's the most ridiculous question and they always ask it. I feel horrible for his family. His son was on TV almost in tears when they kidnapped him. Why they can't show some decency and leave them alone is beyond me. Some one very close to them just died the last thing they need is van parked outside their house 24 hours a day and vultures shoving a microphone and a camera in their face every time they try to leave the house.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Funny Clinton doesn't blame Bush for the war in Iraq.... Bill knows better.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Honestly, I think the majority of Americans want Clinton to go away. His book will sell - just because. But I have a hard time believing most people have a favorable opinion of him.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Honestly, I think the majority of Americans want Clinton to go away. His book will sell - just because. But I have a hard time believing most people have a favorable opinion of him.

It's funny he's releasing the book and going to be going on a book tour right before the election isn't it? Take the lime light away from Kerry, why would they want to do that? If he doesn't pick Hellory as his VP he is not winning.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Honestly, I think the majority of Americans want Clinton to go away.

As hard as it is to believe people do like him and his wife. When you talk to them they know absolutely nothing about the Clintons other than that they like them. To me it's like saying your a Nixon fan. Regardless of what side of the political spectrum your on corrupt is corrupt.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I mildly support the officer West for his unlawful actions in that situation for several reasons. If you read West's story, he was quoted that he could be wrong about Hamoodi (the man he fired his pistol at) since a search of 'collaborator's house turned up nothing. Hamoodi maintains that he started blabbing out names out of fear. So even your example how how torture should be conducted didn't help any and possibly converted one Iraqi to the dark

I saw West interviewed several times and he said in all the interviews that he obtained information that saved lives. Do you think the guy he shot at would think twice to kill an American troop? Iraqis never kill anyone they are just sitting down with their families eating rice pilaf. It's funny though, who is setting off the car bombs and shooting at our troops ?

 

[CEDeoudes59]

As hard as it is to believe people do like him and his wife. When you talk to them they know absolutely nothing about the Clintons other than that they like them. To me it's like saying your a Nixon fan. Regardless of what side of the political spectrum your on corrupt is corrupt.

I believe most Americans know that their are bigger issues on the table than finding closure on a past president. Sorry Bill, this war is bigger than you.

 

[shercolt]

Re: beheadings

Kennedy's lied about a lot of things, as most people in politics do. The convolutions of who was all involved in the the Bay of Pigs invasion detracts from the fact that the mission to rid Cuba from communisim failed. Has Bush et al.'s invasion of Iraq, and Sadam's removal, brought stability to that part of the world and, thus, reduced the immediate threat of terror to the United States ? I would say not. Clinton sent in some U.S. troops to help stabilize Somalia during its long-standing civil war. Did it help ? No, it too was a failure..

You asked for proof of Bush's deliberate lying. As I stated, that would require showing a conspiracy to mislead. Who in the Bush's administration is going to admit to that ? In regard to Nixon, it was Dean's word against Nixon's men. Nixon capitulated in the end.
Yes, there has been voting fraud on the part of the Democrats. The only thing the Star Investigation of Cliniton showed was that Clinton lied about his affair with Monica Lewinsky. Clinton was not found quilty on White Water, the White House Travel, Vince Foster, etc. After $ 70, 000, 000.00 of tax payers money, Ken Star's report focuses over and over on blow jobs.

My overall quetion is, who are we (i.e., the USA) to decide that another country needs democracy, and why do we consistently "free" such a country based on frequently contrived threats to us ?

However wrong or erroneously-based our actions are, they in no way justify the barbaric acts of others.

We could re-hash history all day long, but it does not change the fact that due to the words and actions of Bush et al., the United States is in deep trouble. The United States is hated all over the world. We will continue to be targets of violence and terrorism. The bottom line is what are we going to do about it, and how are we going to prevent this from happening again. Bush et al. have failed to remember the adage that "those who fail to know history are bound to repeat it."

So what are you saying Kennedy lied about?

WMDs aren't just missiles they can include biological weapons and suit case nukes ect.

That's not true. We invaded Somalia ect. Also look up what the Clinton administration wanted to do with the clipper chip.

I agree with you there should be a paper trail with voting but what does that have to do with what we are talking about. Witness ect. brought Nixon down. There were people who came forward against Clinton as well. Also there were wide spread accounts of Democratic vote fraud in the 2000 presidential election as well as others in recently.

 

[Nullifidian]

While I'm a centrist in my views typically, and I don't like Kerry at all, I have to agree that Bush has really destroyed our international image. Europe hates our guts now. Seeing as how half of my family lives in various countries all over Europe, I know. They didn't always hate us, some of those countries until very recently were our staunch allies and their people really liked us. That's changed. Not one single European country likes us. Including Britain. While Tony Blair may be our ally, you can expect him to not be re-elected because the British people are pissed.

And if you think we don't need Europe, then you are shortsighted indeed. Every year, Europe is becoming less and less like a continent of seperate nations and more and more like a confederacy of states. The European economy is relying less and less on the dollar every day. I would go so far as to say in ten years time, at the current rate of things, the euro will be the currency upon which all over economies are judged much in the way the dollar has been used in the past half century. Without Europe's support, the US will enter an economic dark ages.

We need to support our troops, and establish stability in Iraq, but Bush needs to go. This Patriot Act bullshit needs to go. I want my rights back. I don't want to live in a police state. "Those who give up their freedom in return for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Kennedy's lied about a lot of things, as most people in politics do. The convolutions of who was all involved in the the Bay of Pigs invasion detracts from the fact that the mission to rid Cuba from communisim failed.

You said Kennedy lied about the bay of pigs. What did he lie about?Also it could be argued that it failed because he pulled the air support.

You asked for proof of Bush's deliberate lying. As I stated, that would require showing a conspiracy to mislead. Who in the Bush's administration is going to admit to that ? In regard to Nixon, it was Dean's word against Nixon's men.

There was also other evidence such as the beak in and memos ect. My point is if you believe that Bush deliberately lied to go into Iraq at least provide some credible circumstantial evidence.

The only thing the Star Investigation of Cliniton showed was that Clinton lied about his affair with Monica Lewinsky. Clinton was not found quilty on White Water, the White House Travel, Vince Foster, etc. After $ 70, 000, 000.00 of tax payers money, Ken Star's report focuses over and over on blow jobs.

That almost sounds like a direct quote from Bill's interview last night. Clinton was not found "not guilty" in any of what you mentioned exept for the Vince Foster issue. Most of it there was insuficent evidence. The white water case for example evaperated when jim McDougle was thrown in solitary confinement in prison with out his heart medicine and died. There was a rift in the investigation. Some people felt they had enough to prosecute both Bill and Hillary some didn't. The notion that he was found not guilty is false.

My overall question is, who are we (i.e., the USA) to decide that another country needs democracy, and why do we consistently "free" such a country based on frequently contrived threats to us ?

We went into Iraq because the administration believe that they were a threat to us. That is why we went in. He didn't stand up at the state of the union and say lets give the Iraqi people freedom. However, now the reason for going in to Iraq isn't mentioned very much and it's about freedom.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

While I'm a centrist in my views typically, and I don't like Kerry at all, I have to agree that Bush has really destroyed our international image. Europe hates our guts now. Seeing as how half of my family lives in various countries all over Europe, I know. They didn't always hate us, some of those countries until very recently were our staunch allies and their people really liked us. That's changed. Not one single European country likes us. Including Britain. While Tony Blair may be our ally, you can expect him to not be re-elected because the British people are pissed.

And if you think we don't need Europe, then you are shortsighted indeed. Every year, Europe is becoming less and less like a continent of seperate nations and more and more like a confederacy of states. The European economy is relying less and less on the dollar every day. I would go so far as to say in ten years time, at the current rate of things, the euro will be the currency upon which all over economies are judged much in the way the dollar has been used in the past half century. Without Europe's support, the US will enter an economic dark ages.

The mantra for many people has become is what does Europe think. My response to this is who cares. Europe hates us they hated us before the war and they'll hate us after the war. They don't care about the security of America or American sovereignty. They are bunch of bureaucratic socialists who think the United States should bend over and grab out ankles when ever they tell us to. How dare the United States have low taxes that's not fair to them. There should be sanctions against the united states until we have a "fair" tax rate. Why didn't they support us going into the war? It's funny the countries that didn't support us were getting kick backs from Iraq in the oil for food scandal.
Also we could avoid going into an economic dark ages if we go out of religion of globalism mentality of shooting our selves in the foot for the sake of globalism. If we got out of the unconstitutional WTO got rid of NAFTA and hiked tariffs up on companies such as Nike who uses slave labor then shipes their products over here we would be ok.