Nic Berg Beheading
- Thread starter db682
- Start date
drei
Member
Me Thinks
Personally I don't think we should be in Iraq. It seems to me that this would have better off being a world problem and not just a US problem. **** 87 Billion dollars last year and they are asking for 50 Billion more this year for this "war". You bros know we could do massive things for this country with that much loot. Doesn't look like a war to me it looks more like we are baby sitting some unruly ass out of control kids. And every time we spank one of there asses they bring more bad ass kids to fight us back. We can't force democracy on anyone who does not want to be in a democracy.
I feel sorry for Mr. Berg but on the flip side that was a grown man who made a decision to go at it alone in Iraq. He wanted to make a difference on his own in a country where they kill our soldiers daily. The terrorist needed someone to make a point with and they found him.
I love being Black, I'm proud to be an American and I fully support our troops here and abroad (ex-navy man myself 10yrs.). But we really need to think about why we are in Iraq and was it really worth it? Get mad and make racial slurs if you want (rag head and towel head) but it ain't helping squat. Remember not to long ago it was common for my people to be called niggers and we didn't blow up ****. Iraq is a damn mess and we can't seem to clean it up.
Personally I don't think we should be in Iraq. It seems to me that this would have better off being a world problem and not just a US problem. **** 87 Billion dollars last year and they are asking for 50 Billion more this year for this "war". You bros know we could do massive things for this country with that much loot. Doesn't look like a war to me it looks more like we are baby sitting some unruly ass out of control kids. And every time we spank one of there asses they bring more bad ass kids to fight us back. We can't force democracy on anyone who does not want to be in a democracy.
I feel sorry for Mr. Berg but on the flip side that was a grown man who made a decision to go at it alone in Iraq. He wanted to make a difference on his own in a country where they kill our soldiers daily. The terrorist needed someone to make a point with and they found him.
I love being Black, I'm proud to be an American and I fully support our troops here and abroad (ex-navy man myself 10yrs.). But we really need to think about why we are in Iraq and was it really worth it? Get mad and make racial slurs if you want (rag head and towel head) but it ain't helping squat. Remember not to long ago it was common for my people to be called niggers and we didn't blow up ****. Iraq is a damn mess and we can't seem to clean it up.
Sir Foxx
Active member
What I don't understand is why we don't do in Iraq, what we did in Germany following WWII. We made every citizen of the country register. If someone committed a terrorist act, like say blow up a tank, we would pull out of the town or city and shell it for 24 hours straight, with no thought to any safe zones in that town or city. Then we would roll back in and basically say, "Any more tanks you want to blow up? Because we have no problem reducing this country to rubble." That is why Germany never got out of hand after WWII. The people will police themselves and take these bastards out if they think we will just annihilate everything. This would also make a point to the rest of these countries that harbor these groups, support these terrorists, this is what happens. If you make the war hell for the enemy, they will falter, either under our strength or their own peoples desire for survival.
Last edited:
MarcusG
Board Supporter
Sir Foxx said:
I don't remember anything like what you said happenning but it might have worked then because of the general low mentality of the period. No distinction was made between German citizens and the Nazis. The view was that they were all one and the same and deserved to be bombed to hell.
Its odd that thee was no outroar on this board with the Iraqi prisoner scandal until the Nick Berg video came out.
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
Interesting points on Germany. But remember, there exists a religious barrier in the middle-east that no good deed by the United States will ever bring down. There is hope for peace, but the day will probably never come when the middle-east likes (or even respects) our culture.
lifted
Well-known member
Yes, precision guided bombs, pull out half of our troops, let the other troops organize everything else. The thing that bothers me most about the war is that the Mosques are considered untouchables. These ragheads will run outside shoot, bomb, and kill our soldiers, and then run back in and can't be bothered.....WHAT KIND OF **** IS THAT??? Give me a fvckin' break.....
Pretty soon, we're not gonna have any choice and then it'll be too late. This whole thing sickens me....I can't roll with the punches anymore with these decisions our leaders are making because of how the other countries might think negatively about us. If it weren't for caring about what the international community thinks about are decision makings, then this would of happened a long time ago IMO. We need to forget about "international opinion" now and do what's best for US. You think that the other major countries in the world ALL agreed of what we did in the past? Hell no....Let's do what we got to do already, and move the fvck on....
Pretty soon, we're not gonna have any choice and then it'll be too late. This whole thing sickens me....I can't roll with the punches anymore with these decisions our leaders are making because of how the other countries might think negatively about us. If it weren't for caring about what the international community thinks about are decision makings, then this would of happened a long time ago IMO. We need to forget about "international opinion" now and do what's best for US. You think that the other major countries in the world ALL agreed of what we did in the past? Hell no....Let's do what we got to do already, and move the fvck on....
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
I agree with you, but won't happen for political reasons. Obviously. The country is torn on if we should we over there in the first place. And if we were to do that, all sorts of human rights groups would be blowing the whistle on Bush.
"Terrorists are people too" "misguided people" <--- That one is becoming popular.
It makes me sick.
The slight and rare humiliation that Iraqi Terrorists/Prisoners of War endured is getting our own people to say that, "Bush has reopenned Sadaam's Torture Chambers."
No prisoners were killed. No prisoners were raped. No prisoners were dropped in vats of acid. No prisoners had their tounges cut out so they could die by choking on their own blood. This hardly parallels Sadaam's torture chambers.
The more ridiculous people get about how 'terrible' and 'inhumane' our soldiers are - is making me have less and less sympathy for the Iraqi "victims" in the prison.
"Terrorists are people too" "misguided people" <--- That one is becoming popular.
It makes me sick.
The slight and rare humiliation that Iraqi Terrorists/Prisoners of War endured is getting our own people to say that, "Bush has reopenned Sadaam's Torture Chambers."
No prisoners were killed. No prisoners were raped. No prisoners were dropped in vats of acid. No prisoners had their tounges cut out so they could die by choking on their own blood. This hardly parallels Sadaam's torture chambers.
The more ridiculous people get about how 'terrible' and 'inhumane' our soldiers are - is making me have less and less sympathy for the Iraqi "victims" in the prison.
MarcusG
Board Supporter
? How does Saddam era prisoner treatment justify abuses that are going on now ?
Most of the people jailed were innocent. By US own figures 70-90% jailed were by mistake. They were just rounded up along with the bad guys. How would torturing and hummiliating them help?
Just read the news:-
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Most of the people jailed were innocent. By US own figures 70-90% jailed were by mistake. They were just rounded up along with the bad guys. How would torturing and hummiliating them help?
Just read the news:-
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
It doesn't justify it, but saying these prisons are torture chambers is ludacris
VanillaGorilla
Active member
If they were able to obtain information from some of these guys that ended up saving Americans lives than it's justified.
The stories you posted have some problems with them. The first thing people need to keep in mind is that the mainstream press is slanted to the left to put it mildly. This is why they were down playing the murder of Nic Berg. They don't want the focus taking away from a negative Bush story. Now they will ramp up the murder because Nic Berg's father is blaming Bush and Rums. for the murder. The British press hates America too ( which is where two of the articles came from)as does most of the governments of the world.
The first and the last story relies 100 % on the stories told by Iraqi prisoners. What are they going to say..... I was taking pot shots at American solders and blew up bombs around Iraqi? Of course they are going to say they are innocent. One article even says, "Siddiqui's account could not be independently verified". In other words, they have no way of knowing if any of these people are telling the truth. It doesn't take half a brain to realize France, Germany, and most of the world is against us by keeping the abuse stories in the press it puts allot of political pressure on the administration. The second story comes from a human rights group who also have a strong left wing ideology. They think nothing of our troops getting killed and flip out over Iraqis being abused.
If the way Iraqi prisoners were treated resulted in information that stopped an attack and saved lives than I don't have a problem with it. I am sorry they had to be treated that way. At the same time we need to put the safety of our solders above all else.
jweave23
Registered User
VanillaGorilla said:
I absolutely disagree 100%. Politics aside (which is hard to do considering the obvious lines drawn here) I see NO justification for improper and abusive treatment of prisoners from Americans.
I'm not going to sit here and say that these were "torture chambers" or something of the like, but what we can corroborate indicates that the treatment of some of the prisoners was unacceptable by American standards, this is evident and admitted. If saving the lives of Americans is the bottom line, are you saying that the end always justifies the means?
I think what we have here are two extremes of the situation, neither one being entirely representative of the respective populations as a whole, so let's not overreact and consider them that. Not every Arab wishes to lop off our heads, just as mush as I would not wish humiliate and degrade every Arab. The lack of control and thought to realize that blind hate from either side is wrong and will only result in needless loss of life and stall progress is the killer here, moreso than the individual actions themselves, IMO.
If we choose to play the "retaliation game".......when does it stop? Who will eventually step up to the plate and realize that to perpetuate obviously inappropriate and inhumane actions will only result in an escalation of senseless violence and no real and true progress can be made? Do we leave this up to the middle east to realize?
I am amazed and appalled, even as incensed as I get watching certain recent events, that people here are so quick to disperse their hate without impunity, that they are so blind to not see the paradox of violence that is ensuing.
I feel that while no one has the right answer, I would certainly like to think more of Americans in that we know the right path. We have been known in the past as a voice of reason and sense in the world, a guiding light to humanity and freedom, and to let it slip right by us is damn near criminal IMHO.
This whole thing makes me sick.
MarcusG
Board Supporter
VanillaGorilla said:
I can be sympathetic if some persuasion were applied to hardcore criminals to retrieve some time sensitive information that might save lives. But look at whats going on, the bulk of the prisoners (70-90% by US own estimates -stated to the Red Cross) are innocent. Why should hummiliated and torture be SOP to most likely innocent civilians? Taguba's report is quite damning, prisoners were coming in for processing on the first day naked save for womens underwear and subjected to torture after that.
I think the doctrine of force protection has permeated every single procedure of the US military. And this is reinforced by equally widespread attitude of dehumanization of the Iraqi's. Its far easier to kill and torture Iraqi's if they are simply regarded as terrorist ragheads.
I'll bet no one including myself would believe torture was widespread if the photos were not published and Taguba never produced his report. I believe the film and photos were primarily for soldiers own personal sex and torture porno stash. Some senators have already stated that there were large quantities of photos showing soldiers having sex and even some rape photos involving prisoners along with more hummiliation scenes.
BigVrunga
Well-known member
The US should have never gone into Iraq in the first place. A statement I think most of use agree on. There is no clear enemy, no clear end in sight, and the mess gets bigger by the minute.
I feel terrible for the Iraqi people, and those prisoners that were abused. However,they werent beheaded with a hand saw, or burned alive and strung from a bridge. What happened to those Iraqi soldiers happens to thousands US prisoners every week Im sure. And Im sure most of those people are in prison for non-violent,drug related, crimes. I dont see nationwide outrage concerning that issue.
The media trying to correlate Nick Berg's beheading to the 'Prisoner Abuse Scandal' makes me sick. Stop trying to be so fucking civilized. What happened to Berg is an animal act of terrorism. I saw that video, and Im still holding back nausea.
If the US government wants to fix this mess, the way I see it they have two options:
Stop wasting our money and our troops lives. They're turning war this into a media driven circus run by politicians. The insanity is further amplified because its an election year. The government is fucking with our troops' lives and thinking nothing of it. Pull out now, turn the country over to its people (which will for a government similar to other countries in the mideast - corrupt and malfunctional - but either way that's going to happen)
Or, like SirFoxx said, annhilate everything that stands in our way and rebuild the country from the ground up. If you really, truly, want to instill American values into a people who abhor and despise our way of life, that's really the only way to get it done.
When is the US going to learn you can't fight a civilized war. There's nothing civilized about killing people. If you're going to do it, get it done the right way and stop fucking around.
**** - politiicians make me sick. Something needs to be done about these fools before the whole country goes to hell.
BigV
I feel terrible for the Iraqi people, and those prisoners that were abused. However,they werent beheaded with a hand saw, or burned alive and strung from a bridge. What happened to those Iraqi soldiers happens to thousands US prisoners every week Im sure. And Im sure most of those people are in prison for non-violent,drug related, crimes. I dont see nationwide outrage concerning that issue.
The media trying to correlate Nick Berg's beheading to the 'Prisoner Abuse Scandal' makes me sick. Stop trying to be so fucking civilized. What happened to Berg is an animal act of terrorism. I saw that video, and Im still holding back nausea.
If the US government wants to fix this mess, the way I see it they have two options:
Stop wasting our money and our troops lives. They're turning war this into a media driven circus run by politicians. The insanity is further amplified because its an election year. The government is fucking with our troops' lives and thinking nothing of it. Pull out now, turn the country over to its people (which will for a government similar to other countries in the mideast - corrupt and malfunctional - but either way that's going to happen)
Or, like SirFoxx said, annhilate everything that stands in our way and rebuild the country from the ground up. If you really, truly, want to instill American values into a people who abhor and despise our way of life, that's really the only way to get it done.
When is the US going to learn you can't fight a civilized war. There's nothing civilized about killing people. If you're going to do it, get it done the right way and stop fucking around.
**** - politiicians make me sick. Something needs to be done about these fools before the whole country goes to hell.
BigV
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
The US should have never gone into Iraq in the first place. A statement I think most of use agree on. There is no clear enemy, no clear end in sight, and the mess gets bigger by the minute.
** The enemy was Sadaam (to us and the Iraqi people), and we did remove him. The potential threat of Weapons of Mass Destruction is the justification of entering Iraq (coupled with Sadaam being uncopperative with UN inspectors). Most Democrats voted for action. The end is July 1, an end to the stalemate nonetheless. I agree it's definitly a mess.
I feel terrible for the Iraqi people, and those prisoners that were abused. However,they werent beheaded with a hand saw, or burned alive and strung from a bridge. What happened to those Iraqi soldiers happens to thousands US prisoners every week Im sure. And Im sure most of those people are in prison for non-violent,drug related, crimes. I dont see nationwide outrage concerning that issue.
** I agree with you here 100%. I lose sympathy for those Iraqis abused when I here the argument that the abuse parallels 'Saddam's Regime' or 'Hitler'. It is clearly not the case.
The media trying to correlate Nick Berg's beheading to the 'Prisoner Abuse Scandal' makes me sick. Stop trying to be so fucking civilized. What happened to Berg is an animal act of terrorism. I saw that video, and Im still holding back nausea.
** I'm with you here
If the US government wants to fix this mess, the way I see it they have two options:
Stop wasting our money and our troops lives. They're turning war this into a media driven circus run by politicians. The insanity is further amplified because its an election year. The government is fucking with our troops' lives and thinking nothing of it. Pull out now, turn the country over to its people (which will for a government similar to other countries in the mideast - corrupt and malfunctional - but either way that's going to happen)
** It doesn't look good to pull out. But not just politically. The middle east will believe we are pulling out because they intimidated us. A victory for terrorism. Our soldiers gave their lives. It's not Vietnam. And I hate when my own generation tries to pull that card. Stay the course until July 1 - in my opinion.
When is the US going to learn you can't fight a civilized war. There's nothing civilized about killing people. If you're going to do it, get it done the right way and stop fucking around.
** Absolutely correct. Those who hate America, (France) are going to hate us regardless of how good we try to look. We are dealing with uncivilized animals - not people in terrorist.
**** - politiicians make me sick. Something needs to be done about these fools before the whole country goes to hell.
**Definitly so.
** The enemy was Sadaam (to us and the Iraqi people), and we did remove him. The potential threat of Weapons of Mass Destruction is the justification of entering Iraq (coupled with Sadaam being uncopperative with UN inspectors). Most Democrats voted for action. The end is July 1, an end to the stalemate nonetheless. I agree it's definitly a mess.
I feel terrible for the Iraqi people, and those prisoners that were abused. However,they werent beheaded with a hand saw, or burned alive and strung from a bridge. What happened to those Iraqi soldiers happens to thousands US prisoners every week Im sure. And Im sure most of those people are in prison for non-violent,drug related, crimes. I dont see nationwide outrage concerning that issue.
** I agree with you here 100%. I lose sympathy for those Iraqis abused when I here the argument that the abuse parallels 'Saddam's Regime' or 'Hitler'. It is clearly not the case.
The media trying to correlate Nick Berg's beheading to the 'Prisoner Abuse Scandal' makes me sick. Stop trying to be so fucking civilized. What happened to Berg is an animal act of terrorism. I saw that video, and Im still holding back nausea.
** I'm with you here
If the US government wants to fix this mess, the way I see it they have two options:
Stop wasting our money and our troops lives. They're turning war this into a media driven circus run by politicians. The insanity is further amplified because its an election year. The government is fucking with our troops' lives and thinking nothing of it. Pull out now, turn the country over to its people (which will for a government similar to other countries in the mideast - corrupt and malfunctional - but either way that's going to happen)
** It doesn't look good to pull out. But not just politically. The middle east will believe we are pulling out because they intimidated us. A victory for terrorism. Our soldiers gave their lives. It's not Vietnam. And I hate when my own generation tries to pull that card. Stay the course until July 1 - in my opinion.
When is the US going to learn you can't fight a civilized war. There's nothing civilized about killing people. If you're going to do it, get it done the right way and stop fucking around.
** Absolutely correct. Those who hate America, (France) are going to hate us regardless of how good we try to look. We are dealing with uncivilized animals - not people in terrorist.
**** - politiicians make me sick. Something needs to be done about these fools before the whole country goes to hell.
**Definitly so.
MaddCapp
New member
Humiliation and torture are not SOP. I certainly don't condone whatever 'torture' that took place and most of the humiliation was unnecessary and uncalled for. However, there is a big difference between humiliating someone and 'torture'. Wives across America are ritualistically humiliated and mentally/emotionally abused by their husbands, but I doubt that when the divorce papers are drawn up, the word 'torture' is ever used. Is it abuse? Absolutely. Is it torture? Not quite. The word torture is typically understood as prolonged, intense physical pain. Not only do I not see 'widespread' torture ... I don't see 'widespread' humiliation.MarcusG said:
I'm sure that the actual torture that has taken place across Iraq at the hands of coalition forces, if combined, would hardly equate to the torture that took place in a single day under Saddam's rule. The scandal is big enough, no need to blow it out of purportion.
BigVrunga said:
I'm not sure most of us agree with that. I don't anyway ...
If we were to pull out now, we'd end up having to go back and clean up an even bigger mess a few years down the road which would cost us a lot more money and many more lives.BigVrunga said:
-mc-
jweave23
Registered User
BigVrunga said:
I also agree completely with this. Apparently Saddam was the enemy at one point, and the rest is one gigantic jumble-**** that has resulted in nothing more than more deaths on both sides, a shitload of money spent, and even more anti-American sentiment. Mission accomplished!
BigVrunga said:
Who said what happened to Nick Berg was not an animalistic act of terrorism? I have not seen or heard anyone claim otherwise. It was a horrible thing done to an innocent man, I didn't think there was any question in that by anyone?
Because mistreatment may happen elsewhere, does that then condone the mistreatment of Iraq prisoners by the American troops? We have documented evidence of Iraqi prisoners being mistreated, and it should be acted upon accordingly, what is the issue there? I didn't know we should be that selective of how we apply our laws and/or investigations. If we have well documented evidence of this kind of treatment anywhere it should be investigated, and I highly doubt the exact same thing is happening by authorized personnel to American prisoners every week (maybe prisoner-to-prisoner) , I think you're reaching quite a bit there man. Even if it was, it sure as hell isn't as well documented as this case, even more reason to investigate.
My understanding is that the transcript of the reading from the Berg tape was where any correlation was made from prisoner mistreatment to the beheading, not exactly something made up by the media, but rather stated by the terroriists themselves. I don't disgaree with you here much, but it seems you're chain of thought is a little clouded IMO.
jweave23
Registered User
MaddCapp said:
I also agree here, but the fact of the matter is that this is not typical of what most Americans consider to be "how we handle things", so let's also not pretend it isn't a big deal to Americans. Of course it will be plastered all over the news, if that isn't worthy of major news coverage (esp. from a news network perspective), what is??
Comparing what we did to what was done by Saddam's regime is pointless. We have a set of standards and conduct that we deem acceptable, and this was not within the definition of it, so it needs to be addressed and handled accordingly, with all the proper resources devoted to ensure it does not happen again and the responsible parties are handled appropriately. I don't think anyone believes that Iraqi's have always handled prisoners better, the fact remains we have not done our jobs and it needs to be addressed.
BigVrunga
Well-known member
I wrote that post right after I saw the .wmv file, I admit was more than a little distressed. I wasn't so much thinking of the media's general opinion - but of what a very liberal friend said at breakfast a night before. He had made a statement along the lines of "How can we blame them for what they did, after the prison scandal..."
It pissed me off then, even more so after I actually saw it for myself. To even assume that other people would share that viewpoint disgusts me...
It should absolutely be investigated, and those responsibly aptly punished. It is, however, another case of media sensationalism. My kid brother was locked up in a county jail for 50 days and a kid got molested while he was in there. Yes, by another prisoner, but the guards there knew what was going on and did nothing about it. Still, that's a whole other issue - I was just trying illustrate how the press can take a story and make it the first thing on everyone's mind. When there are far more serious issues at hand.
I do agree with the principle behind the US invading Iraq. I do think it should have been done a different way, with more allied involvment so that the whole thing isnt on our shoulders.
BV
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
Back on Nic Berg:
Freedom of speech, again, shamefully and disrespectfully utilized:
Two DJs fired after cracking jokes about Nick Berg's death
05/14/2004
Associated Press
Two Portland disc jockeys were fired from a local radio station after playing an audiotape of the beheading of American Nick Berg by Iraqi militants, and cracking jokes about the grisly death.
The DJs, known as Marconi and Tiny, were fired Thursday afternoon from their morning show perch at KNRK-FM, which is owned by Bala Cynwyd, Penn.-based Entercom Communications Corp. Station employees would not release the legal names of the DJs.
Listeners complained about the Wednesday broadcast.
The station's manager sent an apology out over the airwaves, saying: "The actions of the KNRK news morning show were insensitive, inappropriate and repulsive. On behalf of Entercom Portland and KNRK, I apologize to our listeners."
One of the DJs apologized on his Web site, posting a statement that read, "I have become so numb to the horrific things that happen in this world that I sometimes forget there are still people who feel. I in no way meant to be insensitive to anyone. My comments on this were inapropriate (sic)."
Berg's headless body was found Saturday in western Baghdad. Three days later, a videotape posted on an al-Qaida-related Web site showed him decapitated by hooded, armed men.
U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was the person shown beheading Berg, based on an analysis of the voice on the video, according to CIA officials.
Freedom of speech, again, shamefully and disrespectfully utilized:
Two DJs fired after cracking jokes about Nick Berg's death
05/14/2004
Associated Press
Two Portland disc jockeys were fired from a local radio station after playing an audiotape of the beheading of American Nick Berg by Iraqi militants, and cracking jokes about the grisly death.
The DJs, known as Marconi and Tiny, were fired Thursday afternoon from their morning show perch at KNRK-FM, which is owned by Bala Cynwyd, Penn.-based Entercom Communications Corp. Station employees would not release the legal names of the DJs.
Listeners complained about the Wednesday broadcast.
The station's manager sent an apology out over the airwaves, saying: "The actions of the KNRK news morning show were insensitive, inappropriate and repulsive. On behalf of Entercom Portland and KNRK, I apologize to our listeners."
One of the DJs apologized on his Web site, posting a statement that read, "I have become so numb to the horrific things that happen in this world that I sometimes forget there are still people who feel. I in no way meant to be insensitive to anyone. My comments on this were inapropriate (sic)."
Berg's headless body was found Saturday in western Baghdad. Three days later, a videotape posted on an al-Qaida-related Web site showed him decapitated by hooded, armed men.
U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was the person shown beheading Berg, based on an analysis of the voice on the video, according to CIA officials.
Sir Foxx
Active member
Justice for the Righteous. The motto I live by. In less than 300 years we have created the most advanced, civilized, free society that the world has ever seen let alone contemplated. I feel no compassion for the area of the world that has had supposed civilization for the last 5000 to 7000 years, yet still lives in the squalor that they do and somehow call us the godless ones. **** them. I don't remember seeing or reading anything about any handwringing during WWII that we see now. We have the might, the right and good on ourside, even if we have to sometimes resort to the primitives form of abuse to get the info. we need. STOP APOLOGIZING. Pick a side and run with it. The fence is no longer a supportable position.
jweave23
Registered User
Sir Foxx said:
To me that goes against the very basis of an "advanced" civilization, considering the limited scope and narrow-minded thinking that usually ensues (nothing personal Sir Foxx, but it is how I feel). A truly "advanced", "free"
and "civilized" civilization has the ability to discern right from wrong and how the two intermingle....the delicacies of the gray area vs. black and white. We simply do not live in a B&W world, and to say that we do limits the vision and thinking that propelled us to where we currently are. Some may say that this type of thinking is what is currently going on with religious fundamentalist terrorists, hence the nasty situation we find ourselves in. I do believe that too much consideration for every nuance and viewpoint of a concept can limit tangible action, but without it we are simply knee-jerk reacting idiots with no foresight as to what consequences our actions may have. There has to be a middle ground. I find this post to be completely contradictory.
MarcusG
Board Supporter
Sir Foxx said:
Iraq was one of the most secular and wealthy countries in the region until the gulf war bombing and economic sanctions reduced the country to poverty. The sanctions also killed half a million children. So that might be 2 reasons why Iraqis aren't exactly pleased about the situation but even they welcomed the US troops with open arms didn't they.
MarcusG
Board Supporter
MaddCapp said:
Then you must know very little about psychological torture. Skillfully done, its just as useful leaving no physical scars. Sexual humiliation is especially effective in Iraq because of cultural and religious prejudices.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
I think people having their genitals diddled, forced masturbation and threatened with rape by the opposite sex (and at least in some cases did result in rape – thanks to photo evidence) constitutes torture.
If such husbands which you mention practise sexual humiliation, there will be a lot more Bobbit amputations.
Again what sort of justification is that by comparing Saddams torture chambers with US soldiers?
lifted
Well-known member
I think Sir Fox makes a very good point. Everybody had/has there chance to liberate their own countries, state of mind, freedoms, technologies, etc. And I also agree that some countries just don't have the resources, the wealth, the health, technologies, etc because let's face it, they're third world countries for a reason; they just don't have much of what other nations have/had in order to build a strong way of life from the get-go....
And from THAT, brings THIS. Iraq,and most Middle Eastern countries DO have/had what it takes to make and have a strong nation/way of life, etc. Their choices totally ruin that. And this choice(s) are the faith they believe in. The Moslem followings. This faith is EVIL. If it wasn't for this faith of theirs, they wouldn't be complaining about their way of life, because they wouldn't need to. It would be just like any other "good" nation so to speak, because THEIR FAITH is what's holding them back. THEY have a choice. And I'll be damned if I feel any compassion for these people, as they make there own destiny. It's bullshit, and the US is trying to heal these people, but in reality, its the faith that they need healing from, and guess what?? THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN PEOPLE!!! So, just admit that to yourselves so that we can do what needs to be done. Letss look right past all the bullshit and quit beating around the bush and lets END THIS WAR....
And from THAT, brings THIS. Iraq,and most Middle Eastern countries DO have/had what it takes to make and have a strong nation/way of life, etc. Their choices totally ruin that. And this choice(s) are the faith they believe in. The Moslem followings. This faith is EVIL. If it wasn't for this faith of theirs, they wouldn't be complaining about their way of life, because they wouldn't need to. It would be just like any other "good" nation so to speak, because THEIR FAITH is what's holding them back. THEY have a choice. And I'll be damned if I feel any compassion for these people, as they make there own destiny. It's bullshit, and the US is trying to heal these people, but in reality, its the faith that they need healing from, and guess what?? THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN PEOPLE!!! So, just admit that to yourselves so that we can do what needs to be done. Letss look right past all the bullshit and quit beating around the bush and lets END THIS WAR....
MaddCapp
New member
Their actions were inappropriate, unacceptable, and punishable. However, sensory deprivation, electrocution, smashing or crushing body parts, severing limbs, etc. are not in the same category as humiliation and head-games. Though both can leave lasting scars.MarcusG said:
I wasn't trying to justify anything. I'm just wondering where all of the outcry was over the past decade while Saddam was daily throwing these same Iraqis into meat-grinders? Not a word was said. If this is how upset people get when naked men are stacked up on each other ... how in the world could those same people not be 100% in support of liberating the Iraqi people from the hand of Saddam? It just makes no sense to me ...
jweave23
Registered User
MaddCapp said:
The main difference here is the OUR OWN TROOPS were responsible for these actions, regardless if the severity was less. Our standards we set for ourselves are much higher, it makes obvious sense to me why this is such a huge issue. I doubt anyone would be hearltess enough to belittle the torture of Saddam's regime, however we are taking about our own damn people here!
VanillaGorilla
Active member
Not always but in war for the most part yes. Let me put this another way if the way were treated the prisoners caused us to obtain information of when , where, and how Al Queda with the help of Iraqi terrorist were smuggling suit case nukes and several people infected with the Ebola virus to the United States what would you say?
Alan Dershowitz has another example. Suppose your son or daughter was kidnapped and buried alive with only an hour left of air. The kidnapper won't talk. Would you tell the police not to hurt him? Or would you tell the police use what ever means necessary to get your child back alive?
VanillaGorilla
Active member
What progress? They Hate us over there and they will probably always hate us. You are dealing with people who will gladly kill innocent people and them selves in the process. 19 people killed 3000 on 9-11.
They decapitated Pearl before the prison abuse story and video taped it. They burned, mutilated, dismembered, and strung up on a bridge other contractors before the abuse story. The other week they were playing hacky sack with the body parts of Israeli solders. You are right everything isn't black and white. While many people want to think that every single prisoner was innocent, they probably aren't. The resistance over there doesn't really have much of a structure. You can have several bands of people taking pot shots at our troops, then run into their village and like they are innocent. War isn't black and white either. You can't fight a war and win being politically correct.
Last edited:
VanillaGorilla
Active member
Let my throw another analogy out there. Lets say you have an advanced civilization that has no weapons and believes killing is wrong. Sooner or later a more primitive civilization comes along with all kinds of weapons. The primitive civilization hates the advanced one because they believe the advanced civilization is evil. They start invading the advanced civilization and killing any thing that moves. What's going to happen? The advanced society is going to die unless they fight back.
I believe killing is wrong. However there are people in this world who would slit someone's throat for a 100 dollar bill. If a person likes that breaks in to my house and I have a pacifist idealist view of the world I am going to die as will my family.
This rose color glasses notion of the left that we can reason with everyone and hold hands and sing Kum by ya in a utopian socialist world Run by the UN is a myth.
VanillaGorilla
Active member
Does any one on here have an knowelge if this was some kind of psyop kind of thing? The whole thing seems kind of odd to me more than any thing else.
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
We've taken out the leader and regime.
The Iraqi people need to step up and help take their country back.
At the end of the day, that's what it will come down to.
Instead they are just standing there.
If the citizens who want a free-Iraq were half as passionate as the Sadaam fanatics/terrorists - we would be making progress.
Freedom comes at a price - it's ultimately up to the Iraqi people to step up and take their country back. The allied forces can only do so much.
If they aren't willing to fight or help achieve their own freedom - then we shouldn't be either.
The Iraqi people need to step up and help take their country back.
At the end of the day, that's what it will come down to.
Instead they are just standing there.
If the citizens who want a free-Iraq were half as passionate as the Sadaam fanatics/terrorists - we would be making progress.
Freedom comes at a price - it's ultimately up to the Iraqi people to step up and take their country back. The allied forces can only do so much.
If they aren't willing to fight or help achieve their own freedom - then we shouldn't be either.
Last edited:
jweave23
Registered User
VanillaGorilla said:
What is your point here? From what I can tell, apparantly the only solution you see is to eradicate the entire place, because dealing with the fact that attitudes may have to change and understanding and appreciation of culture from both ends is hard work and a long road, so let's just assume they're all guilty and blast them all?
I'm not saying you can tapdance around the militants over there, far from it. But in your mind you must keep the fact that many are average citizens whose attitudes and opinions are shaped and influenced heavily by the actons we take. If we continue to promote the fact that we hate them all anyway (through staements like you've just made), what do we expect in return? It's just a ridiculous game of back and forth. I agree that the responsible militants need to be taken out and our own safety assured, but we have to remember that many of these militants were once average citizens, and public opinion on both sides is what causes a lack of understanding and may perpetuate the hate, again from both sides.
jweave23
Registered User
VanillaGorilla said:
You are taking my example and stretching it to an extreme to make my statements appear ridiculous, which was not my intent, however I applaud your enthusiasm in doing so.
We do need weapons and should absolutely ensure our own protection, no doubt this. I have never said or implied otherwise.
I am simply sayiing that to ignore the intricacies of this situation is to ensure failure of our own civilization. Sir Foxx gave an example with faulty supporting information. The definition of "civilized" is:
Sir Foxx's quote:
Sir Foxx said:
This, to me, certainly does not fit into the paramters of a "civilized" nation, nor should it. We are above barbarism, although with some of the absurd viewpoints around here I wonder how much further along we really are than they.
jweave23
Registered User
Deoudes59 said:
Food for thought: maybe the majority doesn't want, care and/or understand that they need to make their country work by themselves.
I totally agree with your last statement, it just makes me wonder how many of our own troops have to die before more realize this, and why it wasn't realized before we went in with our guns-a-blazing.
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
Iraq is really a mixed bag. The cities with close proximity to Bagdad are packed with former Sadaam loyalists. The cities further away wanted nothing more than to be liberated (burning pictures of Sadaam, destroying statues). Those cities were liberated, and progress has certainly been made there. The other loyalist cities represent a complete 180 from those who desire a free Iraq. We counted on this, but what we didn't count on was: The Iraqis showing little or no desire to rid the country for these criminals. Iraqis almost ignoring what the situation is, and taking little or no stand.
They couldn't free themselves from Sadaam, so we did - but - it is going to be up to them to make their country work. And they aren't exactly trying to help out.
The issue of trust is brought up: "We need to get the Iraqis to trust us." While thats true, and the pictures from Abu-grave prison certainly hurt that trust-connection, The Iraqis are going to have to look passed that eventually if they want to take their country back.
Perhaps after we hand power over to them, they will realize this decision. Make it work, rid the country of these fanantics - and try to rebuild the country for themselves. At that point, its not about how much they hate America, its about if they want to have a free country. Choice is theirs.
I hate Vietnam parallels with Iraq - but the South Vietnamese were often more than helpful in picking out their 'bad countrymen' (viet-cong). They wanted freedom - and knew the price at which it came. I don't see this in Iraq. I see bunch of Iraqis standing around not taking either side - when its their own damn country.
I agree, and the media in the Middle East plays a large role in this. It has made the public totally submissive. But the window of oppurtunity is open now. They need to step up and take their country back.
They couldn't free themselves from Sadaam, so we did - but - it is going to be up to them to make their country work. And they aren't exactly trying to help out.
The issue of trust is brought up: "We need to get the Iraqis to trust us." While thats true, and the pictures from Abu-grave prison certainly hurt that trust-connection, The Iraqis are going to have to look passed that eventually if they want to take their country back.
Perhaps after we hand power over to them, they will realize this decision. Make it work, rid the country of these fanantics - and try to rebuild the country for themselves. At that point, its not about how much they hate America, its about if they want to have a free country. Choice is theirs.
I hate Vietnam parallels with Iraq - but the South Vietnamese were often more than helpful in picking out their 'bad countrymen' (viet-cong). They wanted freedom - and knew the price at which it came. I don't see this in Iraq. I see bunch of Iraqis standing around not taking either side - when its their own damn country.
jweave23 said:
I agree, and the media in the Middle East plays a large role in this. It has made the public totally submissive. But the window of oppurtunity is open now. They need to step up and take their country back.
chemicaldreamer
New member
VanillaGorilla said:
No, there is never an instance where it is justified... that's the reason why 180+ nations signed the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war treatments. How can you know if somebody has information or not before you torture them? So you torture them for the information, and if you get it, it's justified? And if there is no information, you just pass it off as it's never happened?
What happened to Berg is unfortunate and completely uncivilized... but are you guys really that surprised that it's taken this long for something like this to happen? Some of you guys might think humiliation is nothing compared to this, but to them, it is. To you, being piled naked with other men in a homosexual pile might not be bad, but to them, i'm sure many of those would rather be killed than be humiliated like that. And do you really think what's been caught on tape are the only things that's happened? You're naive if you think those are the only things that happened and if those are the worst.
And it appears that beheading has had it's intended affect. Even throughout this thread, you get people asking why the US is still in Iraq, that the US should pull out and let Iraq solve it's own problems, and if all this is worth it. This is what they wanted, and this is what they got.
I think the US went into Iraq with somewhat good intention... even though they were deceptive. And i think the US should stay there until Iraq is stable. But from what i've seen of the US treatments of the prisoners, it's not much better than what those terrorists did to Berg... and i'm sure it happened on a much larger scale.
Don't confuse Al'Qaeda and 9/11 to these Iraqi soldiers that were captured during a time of war.
Chemo
Brewing Anabolic Minds
It may be worse than death over in that big sand box but over here in the United States it does not compare. I have spent time over there during the years and am simply amazed that whole fucking culture has survived for so long.chemicaldreamer said:
Where else is it condoned to kill your own daughter if she was raped? Where else does the repression of human rights equate to political and personal status? The entire culture is depedent on who can violate mass human rights to the most extent.
The fact of the matter is that the difference in cultures [between the US and the middle east] will never be resolved. They will never view their women population as equal or even close. They will hold different views than we have as a fundamental core. Recognizing these facts is a sign of intelligence but identifying and / or agreeing with them is a sign that you are with them in their cause.
Chemo
Iron Warrior
Registered User
AMEN!!!Deoudes59 said:
IMO, the Iraqi people have not shown that they deserve their freedom. Their police prety much pussed out, their citizens aren't doing enough to deter terrorism, they fuckin prey & celebrate when the U.S. soldiers who are there to help them out get killed, WTF is that ? I have come to the conclusion that EXTREME middle eastern countries hate our guts and they wanna kill us, so lets kill the ETREMISTS before they kill us. I know it sounds extreme, but this has become about survival and we better do whatever it takes to win.
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
Iron Warrior said:
It's the reality of war.
Definitly agree, we (republicans, myself) seem to lose sight of what is going to make this ultimately work. Even if we kill 95% of the Sadaam fanatics, its not neccessaraly going to lead to a free Iraq. The 'Good-Guys' need to exercise leadership.
I was pleased to find that more Iraqis have begun to enlist in the army to fight along-side collition forces. Today an army sign up post was attacked by Al-Sadaar loyalists in hope of scaring Iraqis. Sooner or later (hopefully), the collition forces won't be the biggest threat to the Sadaam Loyalists, it will be the Iraqis who desire to be free.
I think very soon after June 30, we are going to see how this is going to play out. Or at least how badly the Iraqis want to be free.
The terrorists and renegade guerillas won't intimidate our forces, but if they are successful and intimidating their our citizens - Iraq will never be free.
Like I said before, this is the window of oppurtunity. This is their chance to step up and take their country back. Easier said than done, obviously, but the Iraqis need to look past how they hate Americans (and Western culture) and step up for their own f_cking good.