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De__eB said:
Dr. Wilson will give you the detailed data from the study if you request it.The study was performed a long time ago, Wilson was talking about it on his podcast with Norton over a year ago, it has just now gotten published.
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They should publish it.
 
kissdadookie said:
Anyhoot, it's still a randomized double blind placebo study, so the nutrition administered is going to be the same for both groups and the only variable here really is going to be one group getting the placebo whilst the other gets the HMB-FA. So again, how does the variable you have mentioned even matter in this scenario when the only variable here is really placebo vs. HMB-FA with everything else constant.
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Amount of protein and total calories given to both groups. Huge variables you should want.
 
USPlabsRep said:
Amount of protein and total calories given to both groups. Huge variables you should want.
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If you're testing the effects of the HMB-FA, wouldn't that be the only variable you would want? That vs placebo? Diet and training should then be similar between both groups. So again, how does the given diet even matter with a randomized double blind placebo designed study? The whole idea behind a randomized double blind placebo from what I understand is to take out all the variable apart from the variable you are testing for (HMB-FA vs placebo in this instance). So if the people observing do not know whom received the placebo and whom received the HMB-FA as well as the participants, how does that not isolate the the study to just the HMB-FA vs placebo variable? I find it hard to believe that they will just randomly dole out total calories willy nilly in such a study when that is not what they are testing for. So wouldn't the amount of protein (in this instance, Dymatize ISO-100 @ 30 grams w/ their placebo/HMB-FA dose) and diet essentially be the constants here?I also looked over the link I provided, I'm pretty sure that's the actual published study there, not a presentation. So... this getting far in life thing eh, guess I'm doing pretty well after all.
 
kissdadookie said:
The only additional give to the placebo group AND the HMB-FA group was 30 grams of Dymatize ISO-100 w/ their dose of placebo/HMB-FA.

Invalid Link Removed

Full study here: Invalid Link Removed

Mind you, this was a randomized double blind placebo study so I don't see how the variables you mentioned puts this study up for contention given the type of study this was and the provided data.
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it should work good for you given the amount of hours you train?
 
kissdadookie said:
If you're testing the effects of the HMB-FA, wouldn't that be the only variable you would want? That vs placebo? Diet and training should then be similar between both groups. So again, how does the given diet even matter with a randomized double blind placebo designed study? The whole idea behind a randomized double blind placebo from what I understand is to take out all the variable apart from the variable you are testing for (HMB-FA vs placebo in this instance). So if the people observing do not know whom received the placebo and whom received the HMB-FA as well as the participants, how does that not isolate the the study to just the HMB-FA vs placebo variable? I find it hard to believe that they will just randomly dole out total calories willy nilly in such a study when that is not what they are testing for. So wouldn't the amount of protein (in this instance, Dymatize ISO-100 @ 30 grams w/ their placebo/HMB-FA dose) and diet essentially be the constants here?I also looked over the link I provided, I'm pretty sure that's the actual published study there, not a presentation. So... this getting far in life thing eh, guess I'm doing pretty well after all.
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just curious but if a study is paid for by the manufacturer, creator whatever how do you know they arent just giving 1 group something else on the sly?
 
fightnews said:
just curious but if a study is paid for by the manufacturer, creator whatever how do you know they arent just giving 1 group something else on the sly?
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There's probably no 100% guarantee for it, but that is what the whole peer review process is for I believe.
 
fightnews said:
just curious but if a study is paid for by the manufacturer, creator whatever how do you know they arent just giving 1 group something else on the sly?
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if manufactures didn't pay for studies, we wouldn't have studies outside of the University realm.

Why would a private group want to study a compound?
 
So far the discussion of Clear Muscle seems pretty polarizing. Many people eagerly await it's release and want to try it, while others try to find problems with the formula before it is even released. If people aren't happy with the study results, then why not wait for logs and/or personal use before rushing to judgment?
 
Dewey99 said:
So far the discussion of Clear Muscle seems pretty polarizing. Many people eagerly await it's release and want to try it, while others try to find problems with the formula before it is even released. If people aren't happy with the study results, then why not wait for logs and/or personal use before rushing to judgment?
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That's society. I in no way am against someone's skepticism, but I really hate to see the ignorance
 
Dewey99 said:
So far the discussion of Clear Muscle seems pretty polarizing. Many people eagerly await it's release and want to try it, while others try to find problems with the formula before it is even released. If people aren't happy with the study results, then why not wait for logs and/or personal use before rushing to judgment?
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I like how you called it a "formula" when it's a single ingredient :P

Looks solid because the science behind it thus far looks solid. I'm excited to see this come out and see what effects it has on more typical workout programs. The true test always comes down to how the masses responds to the product.
 
MultiVitamin said:
That's society. I in no way am against someone's skepticism, but I really hate to see the ignorance
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I am as big a skeptic as anybody, but I don't outright dismiss new ingredients for no real reason. Not that some competitors don't have a reason....

kissdadookie said:
I like how you called it a "formula" when it's a single ingredient :P

Looks solid because the science behind it thus far looks solid. I'm excited to see this come out and see what effects it has on more typical workout programs. The true test always comes down to how the masses responds to the product.
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I realize it's a single ingredient. That actually makes it easier to see exactly what you are getting and you know that you are taking the exact same dose as the athletes in the study did.

I agree that the true test will be how the masses respond. I'm excited to try it myself and to see what other "normal" people get from it.
 
Dewey99 said:
So far the discussion of Clear Muscle seems pretty polarizing. Many people eagerly await it's release and want to try it, while others try to find problems with the formula before it is even released. If people aren't happy with the study results, then why not wait for logs and/or personal use before rushing to judgment?
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Why not ley people just discuss what they want and don't worry about it? They could of avoided it by just bringing the product out when its ready instead of advertising months in advance. Anyway there is a big problem with the study. The intensity used to train. Hardly anyone who buys it trains to that level
 
fightnews said:
Why not ley people just discuss what they want and don't worry about it? They could of avoided it by just bringing the product out when its ready instead of advertising months in advance. Anyway there is a big problem with the study. The intensity used to train. Hardly anyone who buys it trains to that level
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Why the bloody hell would any company ever want to avoid free publicity?
 
fightnews said:
Why not ley people just discuss what they want and don't worry about it? They could of avoided it by just bringing the product out when its ready instead of advertising months in advance. Anyway there is a big problem with the study. The intensity used to train. Hardly anyone who buys it trains to that level
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That's not a problem with the study design lol. That's you not knowing how to use overreaching to an advantage.
 
Jiigzz said:
That's not a problem with the study design lol. That's you not knowing how to use overreaching to an advantage.
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Come on dude 99% of the people they will sell it to don't even want to train to that level and I don't see them advertising that you have to train beyond a normal intensity level to get results do you?
 
fightnews said:
Come on dude 99% of the people they will sell it to don't even want to train to that level and I don't see them advertising that you have to train beyond a normal intensity level to get results do you?
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Nobody really knows what this stuff would do for people that are not training close to the point of over training. However, older HMB studies along with a mountain of anecdotal feedback of people high dosing CaHMB would suggest that it's effective at making gains (even on a cut or contest prep even by some accounts). Mind you CaHMB doesn't have the bioavailibility of HMB-FA nor does CaHMB cause the type of spike on concentration of circulating HMB (which apparently is a key factor on how effective HMB supplementation is), so most likely, HMB-FA would probably be effective even if people are not under the a rigorous overreaching training program.End of the day though, this product is coming out probably relatively soon and most likely there will be a good number of people giving it a shot (MT also mentioned that they will be sponsoring logs for the product), so, we will know soon enough if this promising ingredient is worthy or not.
 
Dewey99 said:
So far the discussion of Clear Muscle seems pretty polarizing. Many people eagerly await it's release and want to try it, while others try to find problems with the formula before it is even released. If people aren't happy with the study results, then why not wait for logs and/or personal use before rushing to judgment?
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I hate all Muscle Tech reps.

;)
 
fightnews said:
Come on dude 99% of the people they will sell it to don't even want to train to that level and I don't see them advertising that you have to train beyond a normal intensity level to get results do you?
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Where'd you pull that number from? Do you know for a fact that results wernt seen before reaching the point of overreaching, or are you just assuming?
 
kissdadookie said:
Nobody really knows what this stuff would do for people that are not training close to the point of over training. However, older HMB studies along with a mountain of anecdotal feedback of people high dosing CaHMB would suggest that it's effective at making gains (even on a cut or contest prep even by some accounts). Mind you CaHMB doesn't have the bioavailibility of HMB-FA nor does CaHMB cause the type of spike on concentration of circulating HMB (which apparently is a key factor on how effective HMB supplementation is), so most likely, HMB-FA would probably be effective even if people are not under the a rigorous overreaching training program.End of the day though, this product is coming out probably relatively soon and most likely there will be a good number of people giving it a shot (MT also mentioned that they will be sponsoring logs for the product), so, we will know soon enough if this promising ingredient is worthy or not.
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The overall tone of anecdotal feedback on Calcium HMB was pretty overwhelmingly negative. There are some positive reviews of everything. You've got people saying completely bull**** supplements like Myo-X got them in the best shape of their life.

Will HMB Free Acid probably effective in people who aren't over-reaching? Sure.
Will the results be anything remotely comparable to those seen in the study? No way.

Look at the results of the placebo group, in the absence of any other supplements whatsoever other than protein. These are experienced lifters and they gained 5.5 lbs of muscle in 12 weeks while not taking ANYTHING but 30g of a protein supplement per day. Most experienced lifters aren't gaining .5lb/wk of muscle absent any supplementation.

In articles and talks about HMB, Wilson has even talked about how it is the intensity of workouts that was limiting benefits of HMB in people, and not the bioavailability of HMB. Free Acid HMB bioavailability is about having to take 1/3 as much of it, not about better results. The key takeaway from the study really should be that you need to combine HMB with super high intensity exercise to maximize the benefits.
 
De__eB said:
The overall tone of anecdotal feedback on Calcium HMB was pretty overwhelmingly negative. There are some positive reviews of everything. You've got people saying completely bull**** supplements like Myo-X got them in the best shape of their life. Will HMB Free Acid probably effective in people who aren't over-reaching? Sure.Will the results be anything remotely comparable to those seen in the study? No way.Look at the results of the placebo group, in the absence of any other supplements whatsoever other than protein. These are experienced lifters and they gained 5.5 lbs of muscle in 12 weeks while not taking ANYTHING but 30g of a protein supplement per day. Most experienced lifters aren't gaining .5lb/wk of muscle absent any supplementation.In articles and talks about HMB, Wilson has even talked about how it is the intensity of workouts that was limiting benefits of HMB in people, and not the bioavailability of HMB. Free Acid HMB bioavailability is about having to take 1/3 as much of it, not about better results. The key takeaway from the study really should be that you need to combine HMB with super high intensity exercise to maximize the benefits.
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Ah, interesting. That's quite a muscle increase over 12 weeks.
 
De__eB said:
The overall tone of anecdotal feedback on Calcium HMB was pretty overwhelmingly negative. There are some positive reviews of everything. You've got people saying completely bull**** supplements like Myo-X got them in the best shape of their life.

Will HMB Free Acid probably effective in people who aren't over-reaching? Sure.
Will the results be anything remotely comparable to those seen in the study? No way.

Look at the results of the placebo group, in the absence of any other supplements whatsoever other than protein. These are experienced lifters and they gained 5.5 lbs of muscle in 12 weeks while not taking ANYTHING but 30g of a protein supplement per day. Most experienced lifters aren't gaining .5lb/wk of muscle absent any supplementation.

In articles and talks about HMB, Wilson has even talked about how it is the intensity of workouts that was limiting benefits of HMB in people, and not the bioavailability of HMB. Free Acid HMB bioavailability is about having to take 1/3 as much of it, not about better results. The key takeaway from the study really should be that you need to combine HMB with super high intensity exercise to maximize the benefits.
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I thought that the concentration of circulating HMB was a huge factor? Btw, this is just the info I gathered from the Suppversity blog article a few days back. Adel placed a lot of emphasis on the concentration of circulating HMB being a huge factor and noted that it wasn't really about how much HMB in total hits your system over time.

Also, I'm definitely NOT implying that results for people on more typical training protocols would get the same type of results as those in the study. Not saying that at all.
 
kissdadookie said:
Nobody really knows what this stuff would do for people that are not training close to the point of over training. However, older HMB studies along with a mountain of anecdotal feedback of people high dosing CaHMB would suggest that it's effective at making gains (even on a cut or contest prep even by some accounts). Mind you CaHMB doesn't have the bioavailibility of HMB-FA nor does CaHMB cause the type of spike on concentration of circulating HMB (which apparently is a key factor on how effective HMB supplementation is), so most likely, HMB-FA would probably be effective even if people are not under the a rigorous overreaching training program.End of the day though, this product is coming out probably relatively soon and most likely there will be a good number of people giving it a shot (MT also mentioned that they will be sponsoring logs for the product), so, we will know soon enough if this promising ingredient is worthy or not.
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any word on price???
 
fightnews said:
Why not ley people just discuss what they want and don't worry about it? They could of avoided it by just bringing the product out when its ready instead of advertising months in advance. Anyway there is a big problem with the study. The intensity used to train. Hardly anyone who buys it trains to that level
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I agree with you with what youre saying.but does that mean that i can train for 3 hours without overtraining if i take this. Like would this help to make my muscles less vulnerable to overtraining?
 
T-Bone said:
Yes it will make you invincible Markos. You will have like some kind of super muscles, and all the girls will flock to you for your super muscles. Mom and Dad might wonder if you are on steroids though. By the way Markos, how do you pay for all your supplements?.
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Plus most likely scientists at Cambridge will most likely hate you Markos...is it worth THAT to you? I don't think so.
 
Markos4 said:
I agree with you with what youre saying.but does that mean that i can train for 3 hours without overtraining if i take this. Like would this help to make my muscles less vulnerable to overtraining?
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Over training is not a muscular issue, its a CNS one.

And its not very common, despite all the bro-lore. "I trained arms twice this week, am I overtrined??!!". No. No you are not. Seriously.
 
Markos4 said:
I agree with you with what youre saying.but does that mean that i can train for 3 hours without overtraining if i take this. Like would this help to make my muscles less vulnerable to over training?
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I don't know I guess that's there angle, Who wants to train for three hours anyway? Don't people have jobs and other things to do?
 
kissdadookie said:
My guess is as good as yours. $40-$50 range per bottle would be my guess. Somewhere in that price range. Just a guess though. Not many supplements I've seen outside of 5 lb tubs of decent protein, priced over $50, typically.
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Go to Tnation, Every supplement is $80 and you have to use all of them! if you really want to be hardcore it's going to cost you $1000 a month.
 
Jiigzz said:
Over training is not a muscular issue, its a CNS one.

And its not very common, despite all the bro-lore. "I trained arms twice this week, am I overtrined??!!". No. No you are not. Seriously.
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I don't know I've always made the best gains training every other day and getting plenty of rest. All the guys the live in the gym never seem to make any gains/ Year after year they look the same but they go every day. Sometimes less is more
 
Lol. Muscle tech hasn't synthesized 10lbs of muscle collectively since the andro ban.
 
stankyleg said:
Lol. Muscle tech hasn't synthesized 10lbs of muscle collectively since the andro ban.
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1ad 4ad that stuff was the best. Is there any way to get that stuff right now?
 
fightnews said:
I don't know I've always made the best gains training every other day and getting plenty of rest. All the guys the live in the gym never seem to make any gains/ Year after year they look the same but they go every day. Sometimes less is more
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That's because their diet blows.
 
fightnews said:
I don't know I've always made the best gains training every other day and getting plenty of rest. All the guys the live in the gym never seem to make any gains/ Year after year they look the same but they go every day. Sometimes less is more
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I was talking about over training lol.

I train each muscle group at least twice, sometimes 3x per week but with reduced volume. I dislike typical splits
 
fightnews said:
I don't know I've always made the best gains training every other day and getting plenty of rest. All the guys the live in the gym never seem to make any gains/ Year after year they look the same but they go every day. Sometimes less is more
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I train many days consecutively. Does this mean I am making no gains?
 
fightnews said:
I don't know I've always made the best gains training every other day and getting plenty of rest. All the guys the live in the gym never seem to make any gains/ Year after year they look the same but they go every day. Sometimes less is more
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I train many days consecutively. Does this mean I am making no gains?
 
bdcc said:
I train many days consecutively. Does this mean I am making no gains?
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Sometimes trains 6 days in a row crew checking in. Not even going to mention how frequently I hit each muscle (the bros might lose their minds).



PS this thread is.....interesting. :lol:
 
bolt10 said:
Sometimes trains 6 days in a row crew checking in. Not even going to mention how frequently I hit each muscle (the bros might lose their minds). PS this thread is.....interesting. :lol:
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I'm hittin 6 in a row. Each body part twice a week. Best results of my life.
 
stankyleg said:
I'm hittin 6 in a row. Each body part twice a week. Best results of my life.
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Ya I should mention I train for powerlifting, so it isn't necessarily the same, BUT the bros would still go crazy. :p
 
fightnews said:
Go to Tnation, Every supplement is $80 and you have to use all of them! if you really want to be hardcore it's going to cost you $1000 a month.
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They are an exception :P I like their protein though, actually priced roughly the same as every other good protein. It's not bad quality either. But yeah, the rest of the line makes me scratch my head at how they stay in business with such pricing.
 
Jiigzz said:
I was talking about over training lol. I train each muscle group at least twice, sometimes 3x per week but with reduced volume. I dislike typical splits
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Agreed. I love training 6x a week, 2x body parts a week. People say it's over training but god damn who cares if you're making gainZzzz
 
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