New to Board- Question on Androgel - Absorption / Frostand T levels - Dr. C?

[scrh1]

Hello all. Sent over to the board here by my friend BigAk from here and I have a question on Androgel. I've been on TRT for about 8 months now. Recently had some estorgen issues where estriadol was up in the 40ish mark and I was feeling like hell. Fixed that for now and feel much better. I am currently on a 7.5g dose of androgel or 6 pumps a day and my test is hovering at the 515 mark. I am experiencing the Androgel frost on my shoulders, upper arms at this dose. Increasing my dose to 10g on the pump has been presented to me as an option or injectables as well by my doctor. Any thoughts on this? Or perhaps a compunded test gel would be a abetter option for me? I have been an avid reader and follower of Dr. C for some time now and will ikely engage him to co-treat me with my doctor come January. Am I just not absorbing enough androgel? Why do i get this frost ?

 

[BigAk]

Hey there guy... I'm glad you've made it over here finally. Welcome aboard. I'm confident that you'll find engaging Dr. John to work with your doctor at home very beneficial. It was one of the best decision when I decided to fly to Michigan to see him. Thumbs up!!

 

[hardasnails1973]

Have you had your thyroid check because people on low thyroid have hard time absorbing the gel. With 10 grams gell and 250 mcgs of hcg i was at 841 ng/dl

 

[B5150]

Welcome scrh1

How are you preparing your skin before applications. Are you showering just before?

I ALWAYS use a lufa sponge and scrub down the area daily. I always apply minutes after drying off from the shower. I have never seen any frost myself. Actualy my skin feels like it is absorbing like a sponge.

But I do notice once in a while that I get some light clumpy gummy pieces afterwards. I believe, in my case, it could be some dermas from the abrassion of the lufa or carbomer (thickening agent) in the androgel.

Just my $0.02

 

[scrh1]

Thanks for the reply's and the welcomes ! My doc has checked my thyroid several times and all is in order on that end. As far as the skin preparation, I apply my androgel after my morning workout and shower. I utiliza a loofah and exfoliate the area well. It appears to absorb fine, except for a white haze now and then. With my levels at the 500ish mark, i am pretty sure my dose will be going up to the 10g mark and it is going to be hard to apply as well as absorb that much. I was inquiring about the compunded gels due to less volume and perhaps easier absorption. Anyone with experiences on the compunded ones or any other comments? Thanks in advance. -scrh1

 

[hardasnails1973]

I am on 10% compounded testocreme for 35 a month seems to be working well I also take .5 mgs armidex m,th with hcg 250 mcgs. Post your thyroid results majority of people are sublcinical and traditioinal drs do not recongize it

 

[B5150]

I believe that Dr. John prescribes compounded formulas. I'm sure he'll be of some help.

 

[scrh1]

Hadasnails73...were you on Androgel before? If so how does the compunded compare ? Thanks in advance. -scrh1

 

[kincaiddave]

My doc has checked my thyroid several times and all is in order on that end.

Would you mind posting your thyroid lab results? I had problems with absorbing the gel and have yet to get my doc to properly test my thyroid. They have only tested TSH so far - 1.18. When I do get the proper tests, I would be able to compare my results with another non-absorber.

 

[scrh1]

THyroid results......will try to post tonight or tomm.

Lookking for them now, but they are more than likely at home where I'll have to do the search there as well. If not I'm back in for bloodwork in 2 weeks anyhow. I absorb, it's just at the 7.5 -10mg mark there is lots of the gel and I am trying to cut down on the quantity of this stuff thats well as the ammount of androgel I am going through ( hence the questions on compounded test). -scrh1

 

[JanSz]

Thanks for the reply's and the welcomes ! My doc has checked my thyroid several times and all is in order on that end. As far as the skin preparation, I apply my androgel after my morning workout and shower. I utiliza a loofah and exfoliate the area well. It appears to absorb fine, except for a white haze now and then. With my levels at the 500ish mark, i am pretty sure my dose will be going up to the 10g mark and it is going to be hard to apply as well as absorb that much. I was inquiring about the compunded gels due to less volume and perhaps easier absorption. Anyone with experiences on the compunded ones or any other comments? Thanks in advance. -scrh1

I use 2x5mg packs of Androgel daily.
After shower I make sure I am totally dry. Often, after shower, I dress up, wait half an hour to make sure I am dry then apply the gel.
Usually I use only one pack of gel and spread everywhere, as much as possible. I only avoid scrotal area. Few hours latter I put on the second pack of gel. Few days ago I tested T=932(241-827). The test was done 8AM my last gel was put on about 2PM the day before.

 

[JanSz]

I use 2x5mg packs of Androgel daily.
After shower I make sure I am totally dry. Often, after shower, I dress up, wait half an hour to make sure I am dry then apply the gel.
Usually I use only one pack of gel and spread everywhere, as much as possible. I only avoid scrotal area.
Few hours latter I put on the second pack of gel.
Few days ago I tested T=932(241-827). The test was done 8AM my last gel was put on about 2PM the day before.

Let me make a couple of suggestions.

Putting the gel on right after getting out of the shower maximimizes absorption.

The greater the area of application, the greater the conversion to E and DHT.

You are taking way too much, if your levels are that high, given the timing of your labs.

Indeed my T is little high, I plan on washing my hands after gel aplication to reduce amount of gel, I will also spread it little less.
6 weeks before my blood test I stopped Arimidex, DIM and I3C as I felt low estradiol (difficulty to get erections), I also stopped Avodart.
As result my E2 test is within range but I have overshoot with DHT. While being on daily Avodart my DHT was 29 (little too low).
Now I am looking for suggestions as for my dose of Avodart. I have restarted Avodart taking one pill every other day.
Also I am not sure if I should worry about my total Estrogens and Estrone. Besides, I am not sure on how to go about adjusting them.

Any other comments, say on my thyroid or adrenals.
My Cortisol test is still pending, but not sure if it is worth pursuing in view of large chance of missing the low.
On 5May2006 test, cortisolAM=18.6
Just in case I have new script in my hand for Cortisol AM/PM (blood test at LabCorp).
Complaints, need afternoon nap, my temperature right up on awakening is 97F to 96.7F,
sometimes I feel somewhat foggy (66yo, 5'9", 157#, white).
Thank you for your time, Dr. John

Total Estrogens------------------------------ ---260 pg/mL (40-115) LE’s Optimal Range: 40–77 pg/mL
estrone, serum------------------------------- ----78 pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- ----27 pg/mL (3-70) LE’s Optimal Range: 10–30 pg/mL
Progesterone---------------------------------- ----1.4 ng/dL (0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone---------------------------------- ----23 ng/dL
Total Testosterone-------------------------- ---932 ng/dL (241-827) LE’s Optimal Range 500–827 ng/dL
Free Testosterone--------------------------- --36.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1)
DHT (dihydrotestosterone)--------------- ---226 ng/dL LE’s Optimal Range: 30–50 mg/dL
prolactin, serum----------------------------- ----4.2 ng/dL (2.1-17.7)
SHGB, serum-------------------------------------
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)-- 1.890 uIU/mL (0.350-5.5)
Free triiodothyroxine (T3)----------------- --2.9 pg/mL (2.3-4.2)
Total T3------------------------------------------ ---104 ng/dL (85-205)
Free T4(direct)-------------------------------- --1.37 ng/dL (0.61-1.76)
DHEA Sulfate------------------------------------- ---369 ng/dL LE’s Optimal Range: 400–500 µg/dL
Cortisol, 4 Specimens---------------------------
Hematocrit---------------------------------------- --45.6 % (36-50)

 

[Scottyo]

Let me make a couple of suggestions.

Putting the gel on right after getting out of the shower maximimizes absorption.

The greater the area of application, the greater the conversion to E and DHT.

You are taking way too much, if your levels are that high, given the timing of your labs.

Dr. John, if the greater area of application leads to greater E and DHT conversion, how spread out should we be applying...and how much rubbing? I generally put 1 pack on upper chest, inner elbow and inner knees. usually 1 side of chest, 1 elbow and both knees. too much? ALso, if i workout at noon, is it bad to shower and dose at 130pm?

 

[pmgamer18]

I did Androgel for a long dam long time I found it best after a shower to shave first to be sure I was dry. I then put 5g's on one side spreading it over my upper arms and shoulders and down my back as far as I could reach. Then I let it dry from wet you are not to rub in Androgel. I then did the other side my levels were about 650 doing this. But I did not put on the gel before a blood test. I never had frost. But grew a dam lot of Hair on the spots I put the gel on.
Phil

 

[Scottyo]

thanks a lot. so you advise against rubbing it in then? ive heard that if anything it can increase absorbtion; is this a myth or just not necessary or wanted?

 

[pmgamer18]

thanks a lot. so you advise against rubbing it in then? ive heard that if anything it can increase absorbtion; is this a myth or just not necessary or wanted?

It's in the inseart the comes in the box. Yet if doing Testim your told to rub it in well.
Phil

 

[JanSz]

I am applying gel in my bathroom upstairs.
I was getting suspicious when couple of times some of the gel driped on the floor. Experiment- I removed all carpets from my bathroom floor and did not clean it for over three weeks. I was surprised to find many places with stains from dried gel.
Now I put a gel only using one hand and divide each packet into three doses plus whatewer leftovers I can squease out on the fourth pass. Few hours latter I use same hand for the second packet of gel. All the time moving slowly. I make a point to wash my hand as late as possible.

 

[Scottyo]

Here are the exact printed instructions I give my patients:

HOW TO APPLY TESTOSTERONE GEL

Squeeze all of the gel from the foil packet, the tube, or the number of pumps if using the pump bottle, into a cupped palm. Gently press your two palms together. When you separate your hands, you will have very nearly half of the gel on each palm. Do not rub your hands together. Try to keep the gel on the palms, instead of getting between the fingers. Then simply cross your arms, wiping the gel over your shoulders and upper arms. Thus apply most of it across your upper arms and shoulders. Absolutely avoid the area where they draw the blood from. Finish off by wiping what is left down your FLANKS (sides of your abdomen—not the middle). Then thoroughly wash your hands. Once you have washed them, there is no worry whatsoever about accidental transferal to others, as there is none left on the surface to transfer. Studies have shown this, and also that merely putting on a T-shirt to cover the exposed areas will do the same for the rest of you. If you had to, you could shower in an hour or so, without appreciable loss of testosterone delivery, as the gel soaks into the skin, and the skin acts as the actual reservoir for dispensation of the drug. You wouldn’t want to do this all the time, but swimming or showering in a pinch can be done. It's still a good idea to take a quick shower before engaging in intimacy.

As an alternative with the pump bottle, you can apply half the total number of pumps to one palm, apply to the opposite side of the body, and then repeat for the other side. This makes it less likely to induce waste of the product.

For maximum effect, apply the gel within 3 minutes of showering.

You want a delay of at least two hours after application before drawing labs.

Thanks Dr. John. I tried this for the first time today, and doing only 2.5g's i noticed some 'frosting on my arms and upper shoulder. I put it all on after working out and a hot shower.
Prior to this i was rubbing it in quite thoroughly.

 

[pmgamer18]

Thanks Dr. John. I tried this for the first time today, and doing only 2.5g's i noticed some 'frosting on my arms and upper shoulder. I put it all on after working out and a hot shower.
Prior to this i was rubbing it in quite thoroughly.

Is this your dose if so you only need to put it on one side. Doing your upper arms and shoulders only.
Phil

 

[Scottyo]

As I think I remarked to you in another thread, my doc wanted me on 1 pack EOD. As I didnt want to have my levels jumping around, I changed things up to at least 1/2 pack a day. And I did end up putting it only on my left side (and thus the light frost).

 

[pmgamer18]

As I think I remarked to you in another thread, my doc wanted me on 1 pack EOD. As I didnt want to have my levels jumping around, I changed things up to at least 1/2 pack a day. And I did end up putting it only on my left side (and thus the light frost).

Ok I remember now talk to to many people and it hard to keep up. The thing about working out and doing a shower is are you cooled down if your still sweating this can do this.
Phil