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Never did a cycle before, question about a stack of PHs

TinyNoob

New member
So basically I'm brand new to gear and looking to get started on the Elite Fire and Ice stack that Blackstone Labs is selling. Is this stack complete, or do you need other things to go with it? If you just followed the recommended cycle, would it even give lasting results? I'm sure to most of you guys the answers are obvious, but I really don't want to screw up myself right out the gate, and there's so much conflicting info out there that it's really intimidating to try to say "Hey, I know what I'm doing!".

I'm a guy, 5'8", 160lbs, and about 15% bodyfat if that matters.I don't have any interest in competing and my job doesn't drug test. I'm just looking to get really big over the next few years. Short term goal for the next year is to get up to 190 or 200 lbs without blowing out my waistline (or killing my organs). I live with other people, so injectables are totally out of the question for me because they'd find them guaranteed, hence why I'm curious about this product.
 
What's your age?
 
I would look at the super mandro and andro the giant stack as a 6-8 week run if this is your first cycle. Halodrol and epistane are also good compounds to look into
 
5Percent said:
I would look at the super mandro and andro the giant stack as a 6-8 week run if this is your first cycle. Halodrol and epistane are also good compounds to look into
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As long as you're over 21 OP you definitely can't go wrong with super mandro and Andro the giant. The fire and ice stack is still new and feedback is rolling in. The dosing is far less mg in the fire and ice but they claim to have special delivery system and esters to help combat the lower dosage. I wouldn't be completely opposed to running them personally but I have also ran the giant mandro stack myself several times and it's great-they use the exact doses used in the university study. There are a Couple of logs of both products combined. Enduregt is in pct and did a non sponsored log just a few weeks ago. See links below.

http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/super-mandro-by-hard-rock-supplements

http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/super-mandro-by-hard-rock-supplements
 
I'm 24. Probably should've posted that in the beginning. And that seems to be two votes towards the Super Mandro and Andro the Giant stack. I'll be sure to look into them more thoroughly tomorrow. They seem to have a really good rep though.

And thanks for the log link. This stuff sounds really promising.
 
criticalbench said:
RULE #1: YOU NEVER EVER EVER EVER stack two hormones for a first cycle. HORRIBLE idea.
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Apparently you must not be aware of the ingredients the products contain.

to offset lethargy for 1-Andro you add a test base. This just so happens to be Andro the giant, a 4-andro product. He can also use Dermacrine or epiandro to help combat lethargy if he chooses. However, the most common combo is 1&4 andros stacked. It's not like anyone said-stack superdrol and epistane and go from there. This is one of the most common beginner stacks out, and for good reason. We also recommended it because the fire and ice stack, which OP was looking at, are also both 1&4 andros.
 
Jsmcougar68 said:
The only thing I ever got results from was trenavar
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What else have you ran?

As for 1-Andro See the study below if you're interested. 8-10lb gain of lbm accompanied by bodyfat percentage drop in 4 weeks. All conducted on well trained subjects and it has much less sides than almost all other hormonal products out there.

Invalid Link Removed
 
I'm pretty much sold on the Mandro stack at this point, but I still have a couple questions. All I'm seeing is people saying it gives you back acne (Which is no big deal, I had that as a teen. I can live with that for a month.) but are there any reports of gyno? How aggressive did you guys feel running this cycle? And as for the support and PCT, I was gonna go with Joyful Joints, Eradicate, DAA Max, Reduce XT, and Post Cycle 3X. Are any of these products ineffective?

And I'm reading stuff on SARMS like Ostapure, but the jury's been out on them since they came out. I remember when they first hit the market everyone was making them sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Any of you guys run it during this stack? Or should I stay away since I'm just starting? I'm hoping to grow as fast as possible, so the idea of getting even more out a cycle is appealing, but again, I'm not into boxing my organs.
 
TinyNoob said:
I'm pretty much sold on the Mandro stack at this point, but I still have a couple questions. All I'm seeing is people saying it gives you back acne (Which is no big deal, I had that as a teen. I can live with that for a month.) but are there any reports of gyno? How aggressive did you guys feel running this cycle? And as for the support and PCT, I was gonna go with Joyful Joints, Eradicate, DAA Max, Reduce XT, and Post Cycle 3X. Are any of these products ineffective?

And I'm reading stuff on SARMS like Ostapure, but the jury's been out on them since they came out. I remember when they first hit the market everyone was making them sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Any of you guys run it during this stack? Or should I stay away since I'm just starting? I'm hoping to grow as fast as possible, so the idea of getting even more out a cycle is appealing, but again, I'm not into boxing my organs.
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1. 4 andro will aromatize, so having an aromatize inhibitor such as exemestane on hand would be a smart move.
2. As far as pct goes, I would recommend going with a serm to play it safe. Stacking sup3r pct with a serm is what I like to do because it is cheap and effective. Sup3r pct already has daa sodium in it, so the daa wont be needed.
3. Eradicate is pointless imo.
 
5Percent said:
1. 4 andro will aromatize, so having an aromatize inhibitor such as exemestane on hand would be a smart move.
2. As far as pct goes, I would recommend going with a serm to play it safe. Stacking sup3r pct with a serm is what I like to do because it is cheap and effective. Sup3r pct already has daa sodium in it, so the daa wont be needed.
3. Eradicate is pointless imo.
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Eradicate doesn't work for estrogen blocking then?
 
TinyNoob said:
Eradicate doesn't work for estrogen blocking then?
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Just arimistane, which is pretty weak to consider an aromatize inhibitor...There really is no evidence or bloodwork backing up it having antiestrogenic effects lol, I actually ran it while having estrogen problems and it did nothing.
 
5Percent said:
Just arimistane, which is pretty weak to consider an aromatize inhibitor...There really is no evidence or bloodwork backing up it having antiestrogenic effects lol, I actually ran it while having estrogen problems and it did nothing.
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Well, that's why I'm here I guess. The product you mentioned isn't legal in the US to order anymore. Any other estrogen blockers you guys can recommend? Everything is just Arimistane. Or does Arimistane work and Eradicate is just a weak product?
 
TinyNoob said:
Well, that's why I'm here I guess. The product you mentioned isn't legal in the US to order anymore. Any other estrogen blockers you guys can recommend? Everything is just Arimistane. Or does Arimistane work and Eradicate is just a weak product?
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Exemestane is a drug that is typically only provided through prescription...Research chemicals are what some people do on here, but they tend to be hit or miss in many cases...There are some board sponsors here that offer it, pharma grade is definitely superior if you can access it
 
I just finished a 1/4 andro cycle. I had zero sides just so you know. It's a pretty mild cycle.
 
So, I'm gonna go with this (unless someone says I'm missing something or picked a bum product):

-Andro the Giant
-Super Mandro
-Protex
-Joyful Joints
-Osta Shred
-Reduce XT
-Post Cycle 3X
-DAA Max
-Estrogenex (just in case I'm super prone to gyno)

I know Sup3r PCT was recommended, but it's discontinued, so I'm going with Post Cycle 3x and DAA Max. I'll probably order this in the next two days unless someone points out a deficiency. (Holy crap this stuff is cheap too. I really expected a cycle to be more expensive.)
 
Invalid Link Removed
 
TinyNoob said:
So, I'm gonna go with this (unless someone says I'm missing something or picked a bum product):

-Andro the Giant
-Super Mandro
-Protex
-Joyful Joints
-Osta Shred
-Reduce XT
-Post Cycle 3X
-DAA Max
-Estrogenex (just in case I'm super prone to gyno)

I know Sup3r PCT was recommended, but it's discontinued, so I'm going with Post Cycle 3x and DAA Max. I'll probably order this in the next two days unless someone points out a deficiency. (Holy crap this stuff is cheap too. I really expected a cycle to be more expensive.)
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I don't think the ostashred is necessary...The andro stack should be plenty if ran 6-8 weeks...I still recommend you pick up a serm to run with your pct...Taurine is a good supplement to incorporate while on cycle to prevent back pumps and cramps, and fish oil is good for joints and overall health on cycle.
 
5Percent said:
I don't think the ostashred is necessary...The andro stack should be plenty if ran 6-8 weeks...I still recommend you pick up a serm to run with your pct...Taurine is a good supplement to incorporate while on cycle to prevent back pumps and cramps, and fish oil is good for joints and overall health on cycle.
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I don't think back pumps will be much of an issue. But then again, everyone is different.
 
I just finished a cycle. Never had any back pumps. No sides at all actually. But like I said, everyone is different.
 
clk said:
I just finished a cycle. Never had any back pumps. No sides at all actually. But like I said, everyone is different.
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I agree lol, I had a friend run the same epistane cycle as me and he experienced no joint pain or back pumps, meanwhile I was dying from it haha
 
The andros are much more mild. In all aspects.
 
TinyNoob said:
So, I'm gonna go with this (unless someone says I'm missing something or picked a bum product):

-Andro the Giant
-Super Mandro
-Protex
-Joyful Joints
-Osta Shred
-Reduce XT
-Post Cycle 3X
-DAA Max
-Estrogenex (just in case I'm super prone to gyno)

I know Sup3r PCT was recommended, but it's discontinued, so I'm going with Post Cycle 3x and DAA Max. I'll probably order this in the next two days unless someone points out a deficiency. (Holy crap this stuff is cheap too. I really expected a cycle to be more expensive.)
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Wow! 9 products for a first time cycle for a 160lb guy. It's amazing how the naive continue to use so many products.
 
The andro I took was from s dmz 4.0. The gains were... Minimal to non existent. No idea why. Most people claim decent gains and about 8 pounds.
 
You can just take the andros with sup3er pct and clomid.
 
clk said:
You can just take the andros with sup3er pct and clomid.
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What if I want to skip the clomid? It's liver toxic and requires a prescription to buy. I know this sounds weird on a steroid forum, but I'm trying to avoid the "illegal" stuff. I have some money to burn, but not in the "US Customs donation" sense of the phrase.

Also, didn't you say that your cycle didn't do anything at all? No gains or sides...I'm kind of wondering if the product you tried actually had anything in it. DMZ 4.0, right?
 
Your gonna get supresses and not recoverand if you do recover look at lost gains and low libido for a while
 
Woo. So I have to play roulette and hope that the Clomid I get is real. That's actually a massive deterrent since PCT is so important.
 
If you want 100%, then yes, you need to do the legwork to obtain Rx SERMs. Or, you can do more legwork and try to determine what Research Company provides reliable product (due diligence) and decide if you are comfortable with the increased risk. You can mitigate some of that risk with Research Companies, by buying from two different ones, and alternating them during PCT (and your AI if it's needed) - but this involves more cost obviously.

While it seems that these PH's are supplements, they are not, and you will actually spend way more money on support products for blood pressure, lipids, and liver + SERMs for PCT, then you will for the PH themselves - you're jacking with your Endocrine system.

I'd wait until age 26 BTW, some Endocrinologists say your not done with your "hormonal wiring" until then.

And a lot of that stuff you listed is un-needed IMO. Take care of your BP/Cholesterol/Liver on cycle and continue it in PCT while adding a SERM (or two). Done.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
If you want 100%, then yes, you need to do the legwork to obtain Rx SERMs. Or, you can do more legwork and try to determine what Research Company provides reliable product (due diligence) and decide if you are comfortable with the increased risk. You can mitigate some of that risk with Research Companies, by buying from two different ones, and alternating them during PCT (and your AI if it's needed) - but this involves more cost obviously.

While it seems that these PH's are supplements, they are not, and you will actually spend way more money on support products for blood pressure, lipids, and liver + SERMs for PCT, then you will for the PH themselves - you're jacking with your Endocrine system.

I'd wait until age 26 BTW, some Endocrinologists say your not done with your "hormonal wiring" until then.

And a lot of that stuff you listed is un-needed IMO. Take care of your BP/Cholesterol/Liver on cycle and continue it in PCT while adding a SERM (or two). Done.
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This^^^

additionally IMHO with these very short oral cycles, although most suggest the use of ancillaries for BP/Cholesterol/Liver support, I speculate that they provide negligible benefit in deterring any lipid or liver issues and that both bounce back pretty rapidly if all else in in order regarding proper diet and exercise. Any OTC BP herbal "supplement" may take weeks of front loading before it is effective at mitigating hypertension on a short 4 to 6 weeks cycle. I'm not saying to the OP to not use them but rather my point is the cost to benefit is negligible and at best anecdotal for the hundreds of people he continue to recommend the over use of these ancillaries.

Choose an androgen and a SERM. Done!

Proper diet and staple supplementation with healthy EFA's (olive oil, fish oils, avocado, etc.) and anti-oxidants (ALA/NAC) should suffice.

Furthermore at 160lbs you could eat better and train better and achieve 10lbs in 3 month naturally.
 
David Dunn said:
This^^^

additionally IMHO with these very short oral cycles, although most suggest the use of ancillaries for BP/Cholesterol/Liver support, I speculate that they provide negligible benefit in deterring any lipid or liver issues and that both bounce back pretty rapidly if all else in in order regarding proper diet and exercise. Any OTC BP herbal "supplement" may take weeks of front loading before it is effective at mitigating hypertension on a short 4 to 6 weeks cycle. I'm not saying to the OP to not use them but rather my point is the cost to benefit is negligible and at best anecdotal for the hundreds of people he continue to recommend the over use of these ancillaries.

Choose an androgen and a SERM. Done!

Proper diet and staple supplementation with healthy EFA's (olive oil, fish oils, avocado, etc.) and anti-oxidants (ALA/NAC) should suffice.

Furthermore at 160lbs you could eat better and train better and achieve 10lbs in 3 month naturally.
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This ^^^ I'm 5"7" and was around 164 lbs when working out and at low body fat. Not sure about 3 months, maybe more like 6 months, but yeah, I agree that you should be able to naturally pack on 10 lbs quite easily at your height and age. Maybe throw in some creatine, which is is non-hormonal. For some it doesn't do much, but for me it has always helped.
 
David Dunn said:
This^^^

additionally IMHO with these very short oral cycles, although most suggest the use of ancillaries for BP/Cholesterol/Liver support, I speculate that they provide negligible benefit in deterring any lipid or liver issues and that both bounce back pretty rapidly if all else in in order regarding proper diet and exercise. Any OTC BP herbal "supplement" may take weeks of front loading before it is effective at mitigating hypertension on a short 4 to 6 weeks cycle. I'm not saying to the OP to not use them but rather my point is the cost to benefit is negligible and at best anecdotal for the hundreds of people he continue to recommend the over use of these ancillaries.

Choose an androgen and a SERM. Done!

Proper diet and staple supplementation with healthy EFA's (olive oil, fish oils, avocado, etc.) and anti-oxidants (ALA/NAC) should suffice.
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Good point. I err on the side of caution out of paranoia (and age) and get separates pretty cheap, so I use them. I'm scared :) But yeah, I agree that all those markers would probably bounce back anyway.
 
I'm not entirely willing to wait 6+ months for a 10 lb gain when I could do that in 1 month and be looking at another cycle within 3 months.

There's a "research" seller with a good rep for liquid clomid or liquid nolva in 3 30 ml bottles, each for the same price (I don't think I can get more detailed because of site rules, right?), so I'm probably gonna go with that and the basic Mandro stack then (Mandro, Andro, Protex). Gonna buy some 5 mL oral syringes too since the dose would be 3mL/3mL/2mL/2mL/1mL at 50 mgs/mL. Gotta say, SERMS are expensive.
 
TinyNoob said:
I'm not entirely willing to wait 6+ months for a 10 lb gain when I could do that in 1 month and be looking at another cycle within 3 months.

There's a "research" seller with a good rep for liquid clomid or liquid nolva in 3 30 ml bottles, each for the same price (I don't think I can get more detailed because of site rules, right?), so I'm probably gonna go with that and the basic Mandro stack then (Mandro, Andro, Protex). Gonna buy some 5 mL oral syringes too since the dose would be 3mL/3mL/2mL/2mL/1mL at 50 mgs/mL. Gotta say, SERMS are expensive.
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Doses seem excessive just IMO protocol for nolvadex is 40/40/20/20 or 20/20/10. Colmid should be more so 100/100/50/50
 
I don't get why people are recommending Clomid over Nolva as I read about the two. Nolva seems flat out cheaper and does the same thing. I'd only need one bottle for a Nolva run for PCT. 1,4 Andro cycles seem to be side effect-less for sure, so I don't need an extra bottle for on cycle aid. Nolva doesn't cause blurry vision like Clomid can either.

(If you can't tell, I'm reading like a madman between posts. I've casually researched before, but I was never anywhere near as serious about this as I am now. It's different when you're saying that you're definitely going to be taking something. Way more intimidating and less bro-science-y.)
 
TinyNoob said:
I don't get why people are recommending Clomid over Nolva as I read about the two. Nolva seems flat out cheaper and does the same thing. I'd only need one bottle for a Nolva run for PCT. 1,4 Andro cycles seem to be side effect-less for sure, so I don't need an extra bottle for on cycle aid. Nolva doesn't cause blurry vision like Clomid can either.

(If you can't tell, I'm reading like a madman between posts. I've casually researched before, but I was never anywhere near as serious about this as I am now. It's different when you're saying that you're definitely going to be taking something. Way more intimidating and less bro-science-y.)
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Well.... Clomid is generally believed (and even prescribed off label by some doctors) to be better at kickstarting the HPTA, where-as Nolva is better at protecting Breast Tissue. Some people (and I'm one - but I don't know jack comparatively) recommend using BOTH. Go read Reddit's PCT page for some good info. Invalid Link Removed

Clomid doesn't give me any vision or emotional issues at 40/40/20/20 - YMMV.

You better check your math on that dosing (unless I'm not awake yet). 50mg/ml of Nolva would mean you would want less than 0.5ml for the standard Nolva dosing of 20/20/10/10. I would highly recommend getting 1ml Syringes.

While the "Andros" (DHEA Derivatives) are considered the most mild - they're your nuts - big boy rules. I personally do full blown, dual SERM PCTs for everything I take. I see you don't want to wait a couple more years until your HPTA is fully developed - don't think I'd risk a minimal PCT, but YOLO.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Well.... Clomid is generally believed (and even prescribed off label by some doctors) to be better at kickstarting the HPTA, where-as Nolva is better at protecting Breast Tissue. Some people (and I'm one - but I don't know jack comparatively) recommend using BOTH. Go read Reddit's PCT page for some good info.

Clomid doesn't give me any vision or emotional issues at 40/40/20/20 - YMMV.

You better check your math on that dosing (unless I'm not awake yet). 50mg/ml of Nolva would mean you would want less than 0.5ml for the standard Nolva dosing of 20/20/10/10. I would highly recommend getting 1ml Syringes.

While the "Andros" (DHEA Derivatives) are considered the most mild - they're your nuts - big boy rules. I personally do full blown, dual SERM PCTs for everything I take. I see you don't want to wait a couple more years until your HPTA is fully developed - don't think I'd risk a minimal PCT, but YOLO.
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I know it's 1 mL syringes for Nolva. My math was for Clomid. Thanks for the feedback, and your link actually refutes what you said for PCT by the way. It says pick one or the other, and that standard Nolva is 40/40/20/20, not 20/20/10/10. I don't know why you're taking both anyways. It's like saying you have a headache, so you took the max amount of Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen at the same time. Apparently Clomid can have permanent effects on your eyes too while Nolva can't, so honestly I'd rather find an alternative to Clomid if I absolutely had to use something besides Nolva.

Anyways, thanks for all the feedback guys! I'm guessing that I'm all set at this point. Just gotta commit and actually order the stuff.
 
TinyNoob said:
What if I want to skip the clomid? It's liver toxic and requires a prescription to buy. I know this sounds weird on a steroid forum, but I'm trying to avoid the "illegal" stuff. I have some money to burn, but not in the "US Customs donation" sense of the phrase.

Also, didn't you say that your cycle didn't do anything at all? No gains or sides...I'm kind of wondering if the product you tried actually had anything in it. DMZ 4.0, right?
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Iml Dmz 4.0. You are correct. My gains were pretty much all from programing and eating in excess. The 4.0 was a total waste of money. Literally did absolutely nothing. My blood work should come in sometime this week. I have a feeling that it will confirm the fact that I was totally ripped off. Sooooo.... note to you, don't take 4.0.
 
I've done m1t when it was legal (I definitely liked that stuff), trenavar (really liked this too), superdrol (sd-10 LGI brand) bought it right before the ban and honestly it didn't do anything to speak of for me, ostarine (SARMS1 brand) wasn't anything to talk about , and LGD and S4 (Primeval brand) also wasn't anything to talk about either
 
TinyNoob said:
I know it's 1 mL syringes for Nolva. My math was for Clomid. Thanks for the feedback, and your link actually refutes what you said for PCT by the way. It says pick one or the other, and that standard Nolva is 40/40/20/20, not 20/20/10/10. I don't know why you're taking both anyways. It's like saying you have a headache, so you took the max amount of Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen at the same time. Apparently Clomid can have permanent effects on your eyes too while Nolva can't, so honestly I'd rather find an alternative to Clomid if I absolutely had to use something besides Nolva.

Anyways, thanks for all the feedback guys! I'm guessing that I'm all set at this point. Just gotta commit and actually order the stuff.
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Did you see this part?::

What's the point of using two different SERMs during PCT?

There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels. Nolvadex is dominant in LH promotion and Clomid is dominant in promoting FSH.

clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of clomid because it put clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH nolva/clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

*You can substitute clomid with toremifine as well.
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That page is a conglomeration of some methods used by various MDs etc... they all don't use the same protocol. You're supposed to read the entire thing, do your due diligence, and make a decision. ^^^That One^^^ made my nuts the happiest when I read it. It makes sense.

And 99 out of 100 people on this board will tell you that Clomid dosing is 50/50/25/25 (or 40/40/20/20 depending on source) and Nolva is 20/20/10/10.

Gonna buy some 5 mL oral syringes too since the dose would be 3mL/3mL/2mL/2mL/1mL at 50 mgs/mL.
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Taking your first week - you would be dosing 150mg of whatever you were talking about (which wasn't clear as you mention both Clomid and Nolva) - either way, that's way to much of either, compared to what 99% of the people on here take.
 
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