Natural recover from Anabolics without PCT

Also won't cycle gains be lost?
 
I personally feel there should be more debate into the PCT process. For one, using a known harsh SERM after a mild prohormone seems like it could do more harm than good. But I fully understand there are pros, cons and risks to anything you take. Is it worth it to take a prohormone for a month of gains but lose those gains in the three months it takes to recover? Worse if there are complications from high estrogen or low T. Just not enough reliable information. With that said here's my blood work from a seven week Diabolix cycle (considered mild), followed by a three month recovery using OL Sup3r PCT and more natural supplements.

All tests were taken around noon-1PM. Anything labelled "POST" is the most current test, 3 months after ending my cycle.

Under 40 Year-Old-Male - 5'9 - PRE: 208lbs ~20% BF / END: 210 +20% BF / POST: 198lbs -20% BF
Testosterone, Serum - PRE: 600's / END: 250's / POST: 650's - 348-1197 ng/dL
Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S - PRE: 10's / END: 4's / POST: 8's - 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL
FSH, Serum - PRE: 13's / END: 9's / POST: 12's - 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL
Estradiol - PRE: 14's / END: 17's / POST: 10's - 7.6-42.6 pg/mL

Triglycerides - PRE: 50's / POST: 40's - <150 mg/dL
Cholesterol, HDL - PRE: 80's / POST: 90's - >39 mg/dL
LDL is higher than it should be, but I run keto and question this number. Cholesterol/HDL Ratio is very good.

AST (SGOT) - PRE: 20's / END: 30's / POST: 20's - 0-40 IU/L
ALT (SGPT) - PRE: 20's / END: 20's / POST: 10's - 0-44 IU/L

White/Red/Blood counts all pretty much stayed the same PRE/END/POST, very slightly lower POST.

Can't really say one way or the other if the cycle was worth it. Losing weight seems to have had the biggest impact honestly. I'm not advocating anything other than get blood work done!
 
Awesome addition to the thread and certainly food for though on such a hot topic.
 
It's easier if you're younger and your genetics are predisposed toward healing from suppression. But shut down from AS is a rough road without proper PCT, and why loose all the gains in performance or muscle size. In 2 weeks I was able to do what I couldn't do for 30 days naturally. Raised my T levels and even continued to get muscle gains. IMO PcT is even better than the most popular Prohormone cycle.
 
PCT is the most important part of a cycle. Fail to PCT correct for a few times and you will open the door to sexual impotence(among others)
 
Have u just seen which Jon Bones Jones substances were in his blood when he was recently got into the ufc's anti-doping? Clomiphene and Anastrozole.

It helps keep ur muscle and strength in check. He probably was coming out from some nasty cycle.
 
I agree with most of whats been said here. PCT is likely necessary, but i think moreso for gain preservation rather than getting the body back to status quo.

I do also believe that some people go way overboard on PCT tho, adding in more supplements than needed. I guess it comes down to personal prefence and how much you believe in "better safe than sorry"

A serm and a test booster are the two main things i would have for a PCT, with an AI on hand if needed. The rest is debatable at best IMO
 
KiNGTyreZe said:
Can a Clomid cycle increase testostetone permamently on nattys?
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As long as you continue to use clomid it should keep your test levels up but do not expect supra physiological levels of test from a serm.
 
You will recover it will just take longer. Use of serms helps speed up the process and get your lipids back in line faster. Plus, libido is not something I want to wait a substantial time to return to normal
 
YoungBodyBuil said:
It most certainly can... Do you understand the pharmokinetics of SERMs at all?
Click to expand...

Sigh, I suppose I should have provided a more detailed response. yates84 covered my thoughts, though. I would not expect a "cycle" of Clomid to keep one's testosterone levels permanently elevated beyond the range they were prior to said cycle.
 
DirtyWilly said:
I personally feel there should be more debate into the PCT process. For one, using a known harsh SERM after a mild prohormone seems like it could do more harm than good. But I fully understand there are pros, cons and risks to anything you take. Is it worth it to take a prohormone for a month of gains but lose those gains in the three months it takes to recover? Worse if there are complications from high estrogen or low T. Just not enough reliable information. With that said here's my blood work from a seven week Diabolix cycle (considered mild), followed by a three month recovery using OL Sup3r PCT and more natural supplements.

All tests were taken around noon-1PM. Anything labelled "POST" is the most current test, 3 months after ending my cycle.

Under 40 Year-Old-Male - 5'9 - PRE: 208lbs ~20% BF / END: 210 +20% BF / POST: 198lbs -20% BF
Testosterone, Serum - PRE: 600's / END: 250's / POST: 650's - 348-1197 ng/dL
Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S - PRE: 10's / END: 4's / POST: 8's - 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL
FSH, Serum - PRE: 13's / END: 9's / POST: 12's - 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL
Estradiol - PRE: 14's / END: 17's / POST: 10's - 7.6-42.6 pg/mL

Triglycerides - PRE: 50's / POST: 40's - <150 mg/dL
Cholesterol, HDL - PRE: 80's / POST: 90's - >39 mg/dL
LDL is higher than it should be, but I run keto and question this number. Cholesterol/HDL Ratio is very good.

AST (SGOT) - PRE: 20's / END: 30's / POST: 20's - 0-40 IU/L
ALT (SGPT) - PRE: 20's / END: 20's / POST: 10's - 0-44 IU/L

White/Red/Blood counts all pretty much stayed the same PRE/END/POST, very slightly lower POST.

Can't really say one way or the other if the cycle was worth it. Losing weight seems to have had the biggest impact honestly. I'm not advocating anything other than get blood work done!
Click to expand...

If you had ended at 198lbs 15% BF, then I would have said it was a successful cycle. But given that you lost weight, while your BF% remained the same, you basically lost fat and muscle. What was the purpose of the cycle? You neither bulked not cut.
 
UncleSarm said:
If you had ended at 198lbs 15% BF, then I would have said it was a successful cycle. But given that you lost weight, while your BF% remained the same, you basically lost fat and muscle. What was the purpose of the cycle? You neither bulked not cut.
Click to expand...

In the log I list my goals which were to cut/recomp with emphasis on training for power ramped up near the end of the cycle. Cut a little, bulk a little, by the end I should weigh nearly the same, hopefully less, but with less body fat and more strength. Chasing the dream right?

Invalid Link Removed

Cut to 203lbs
Power/Bulked to 217lbs

Initially I lost weight but didn't see much gain in strength, just maintained. Near the end of the cycle I starting eating above maintenance calories and gained a hair of strength. The compound was just too mild to deliver any solid strength results for me, seemed similar to taking HMB. As for the body fat it's very subjective without access to the right tools. In my frustration to at least gain something on cycle, I overshot the mark. If I started at nearly 20% BF, then by the end maybe I was 21-22% BF? Could have just been the extra calories, bloat from the high carb re-feed, or the fact I was taking twice the recommended dose. If I didn't get so hung up on trying to gain strength so quickly things started off as a decent cut. Probably would have lost 10lbs and kept my strength, something I'm struggling with now.

The good that I took from it, apart from learning my body, was it helped maintain strength while cutting and after the cycle I was able to push past plateaus. I'm holding in the low 190's now so about 20lbs down since I ended the cycle. My body fat is in the teens but my lifts are suffering. Maybe the compound was working better than I thought for maintaining strength while cutting just hard to say. It was also a decent mass gainer for being so mild, weight came on fast, so probably where it shines the best.
 
DirtyWilly said:
In the log I list my goals which were to cut/recomp with emphasis on training for power ramped up near the end of the cycle. Cut a little, bulk a little, by the end I should weigh nearly the same, hopefully less, but with less body fat and more strength. Chasing the dream right?

Invalid Link Removed

Cut to 203lbs
Power/Bulked to 217lbs

Initially I lost weight but didn't see much gain in strength, just maintained. Near the end of the cycle I starting eating above maintenance calories and gained a hair of strength. The compound was just too mild to deliver any solid strength results for me, seemed similar to taking HMB. As for the body fat it's very subjective without access to the right tools. In my frustration to at least gain something on cycle, I overshot the mark. If I started at nearly 20% BF, then by the end maybe I was 21-22% BF? Could have just been the extra calories, bloat from the high carb re-feed, or the fact I was taking twice the recommended dose. If I didn't get so hung up on trying to gain strength so quickly things started off as a decent cut. Probably would have lost 10lbs and kept my strength, something I'm struggling with now.

The good that I took from it, apart from learning my body, was it helped maintain strength while cutting and after the cycle I was able to push past plateaus. I'm holding in the low 190's now so about 20lbs down since I ended the cycle. My body fat is in the teens but my lifts are suffering. Maybe the compound was working better than I thought for maintaining strength while cutting just hard to say. It was also a decent mass gainer for being so mild, weight came on fast, so probably where it shines the best.
Click to expand...

Would you run this cycle again as is or would you change it? Kind of curious.
 
UncleSarm said:
Would you run this cycle again as is or would you change it? Kind of curious.
Click to expand...

Oh, definitely would change it. If I ran Diabolix again, not sure I would, but if I did...

I'd either go full cut which there's probably better PHs out there for. (Though I did maintain so hard to gauge.)

or

I'd go full bulk which is where this shines. I'd also change my training and go for slow reps and pauses with lots of volume vs heavy/fast/power.
 
Yeah don't waste on a cycle for a while, you basically lost weight while maintaining your fat percentage. You could do that sitting on the couch. Learn how to train and eat first. If you can't make gains on a ph/steroid you have a lot 2 learn.
 
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