Ubiquitous
Registered User
stickdoktor said:
It's BW---Bacteriostatic water, not BA---Benzyl Alcohol.
BW is water with 0.9% BA in it, to clarify...
I'll let Grunt field this question, as he's the wussie that likes to dilute it.
My take on IGF-1
- Thread starter Grunt76
- Start date
It's BW---Bacteriostatic water, not BA---Benzyl Alcohol.
BW is water with 0.9% BA in it, to clarify...
I'll let Grunt field this question, as he's the wussie that likes to dilute it.
FLX78
New member
I was going to buy a 1mg kit with 10ml of sodium chloride as the mixing agent. Is this what everyone is using? Is there something else that's better? I've read something about AA, what does that stand for? I guess my last question is regarding injections. Is IGF supposed to be injected into the muscles you trained that day or just anywhere? I know some of these questions may have been answered and may be common knowledge to some, so let me just thank you in advance.
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Ziricote
Registered User
I'll be spending most of this year researching but an opinion/point in the right direction would be appreciated - During a recomp/cut what form of IGF-1 would best go with PGF-2a for site specific growth : High dose rhIGF-1 or low dose LR3 IGF-1?
Also, other than searching PubMed are there any books out there that discuss IGF-1, GH, Insulin, MGF, Prostaglandin (in humans, preferably)? I've got Anabolics 2006 and CME II : BTPB but would like to know more than just how to apply them to building muscle.
Hugs and kisses x
Also, other than searching PubMed are there any books out there that discuss IGF-1, GH, Insulin, MGF, Prostaglandin (in humans, preferably)? I've got Anabolics 2006 and CME II : BTPB but would like to know more than just how to apply them to building muscle.
Hugs and kisses x
Grunt76
Well-known member
Dude, that information has been posted about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 times already.FLX78 said:
IGF-1 is reconstituted with Acetic Acid. The actual concentration needed is 100mM, or about 0.578%. We use 0.6% and I know at least one supplier who uses 0.5%, which is plenty close enough.
MGF is reconstituted with Bacteriostatic Water.
mywetnightmares
Kyra Gracie= my future wife
FLX78 said:
This happens only if the IGF is used at doses in excess of 40-50 mcg AND used ED. If you dose 2-3 times per week at about 40 mcg this won't happen. I've read that you can also keep this from happening by using doses of approximately 10-15 mcg ED.
FLX78
New member
Grunt76 said:
Ok, so I read the thread and noticed that Oratropin-1 is recommended when people have injuries. I recently separated my shoulder about a month and a half ago. Will either form of IGF help? Will this be better than pinning IGF? I found a site that sells it and they claim it's better than pinning IGF all the way around. Has anyone had any first hand experience with this? Is one better than the other for different reasons? Should I take both? Thanks in advance
mywetnightmares
Kyra Gracie= my future wife
FLX78 said:
Go with Oratropin.
FLX78
New member
Grunt76 said:
Thanks for the help, but it would be real easy to pin where my separation is located. It's actually the joint where my collar bone is, so it's very close to the surface. In fact, I could pin the bone if I'm not careful. Also, are you guys recommending this off of first hand experiences? I'm asking, because I read on another forum that Oratropin is junk. From the delivery to the amount that Is actually used by your muscles.
Grunt76
Well-known member
No, it is great stuff. It is highly recommended in a case such as yours because most soft tissue has very little blood flow. Oratropin is cell-mediated, which means that it can travel from cell to cell through your body, enabling the IGF-1 to reach places where it would be difficult for it to reach with only blood flow as a means of dispersion.FLX78 said:
TeamSavage
Registered User
Grunt - Congrats on the Member Acknowledgement poll. You deserve it for educating us cretins on IGF-1.
OK, I'll let you and Ubi get back to your endless argument over whether to dilute AA before pinning.
OK, I'll let you and Ubi get back to your endless argument over whether to dilute AA before pinning.
TeamSavage
Registered User
Grunt76 said:
So following this logic, if you were injecting IGF-1 everytime bilaterally into biceps versus rotating between 5 different muscle groups, you would expect the results from the IGF-1 to wear off 5x more quickly with the former versus the latter?
In other words, if IGF-1 "tolerance" is dependent on all the myoblasts being fused, and you're injecting PWO so most of the effect is site-specific, then wouldn't you expect the "tolerance" to also be site-specific?
TeamSavage
Registered User
FLX78 said:
There seems to be a lot of debate over this... Some people swear by Oratropin, while others think it's a bunch of nonsense (either because it didn't work for them or else they don't buy the science behind it). Because IGF-1 in general doesn't produce immediate and easily observed results, it will probably take quite a while to get a final verdict based on anecdotal evidence. (Although I trust Grunt so I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.)
I will say this, though. My most recent cycle was 4 weeks of Superdrol. I gained 16 lbs, and then used Oratropin-1 (along with Nolva, an anti-cortisol, and ActivaTe) for P.C.T. It's now 7 weeks after I finished my cycle (3 after finishing P.C.T.) I have not lost a single pound, and my strength continued to increase all through P.C.T. Was this due to the Oratropin? Impossible to know for sure, but I suspect that it played a part.
Grunt76
Well-known member
Yes and no. This is where it gets pretty complex. The higher the dose, the more spillover you have, IGF-1 working on a larger number of cells other than locally. Also the less myoblasts there are to fuse, the less receptors there are locally to pick up the IGF as myoblasts have IGF receptors.TeamSavage said:
So as much as Long R3 IGF-1 is designed to be a systemic drug, it also has some variable degree of local effect, and WILL INEVITABLY ALSO HAVE SOME DEGREE OF SYSTEMIC EFFECT. And as such, depletion of myoblasts will also be both local and systemic, variable depending on both dosage and administration timing.
So if you are injecting IGF-1 in biceps 5 times a week, your LOCAL effects will diminish maybe 3-4 times as quickly as if you inject that same dose on a 5-bodypart rotation. Of course, if the dose is reasonable enough, with the 5-part rotation, you will fuse as many myoblasts as your body can produce and you will get constant benefit from the IGF whereas with pinning only the biceps you will have rapidly diminishing local results. The dose at which a 5-part rotation gives a perpetually constant results level will also give continued results if pinned only in the biceps. Local benefits will diminish quickly and total benefits will be lesser, though.
Grunt76
Well-known member
Here we go again. :yawn:TeamSavage said:
Yep, it is always the case: the evidence is inconclusive. No one will ever ascertain exactly what the benefits of IGF-1 are because there are always so many variables involved within the time span of measuring IGF-1's effects. To properly assess its effects, you would have to have gear virgins doing only IGF-1 for a couple months, then going back to fully natural training for a year and match that with controls staying natural the whole way through. Say, 100 test subjects. Of course, this will not happen.
So we are eternally stuck in the twilight of inconclusiveness, with lots of theory and anecdote stating its goodness and then no hard proof. The bashers inevitably use this lack of hard proof to try and discredit IGF-1 or even more easy, Oratropin-1. I know of one IFBB professional bodybuilder, Olympia level, who states that IGF-1 will kill bodybuilders because it will grow the heart HUGE. And in the same sentence states that athletes are not crediting any significant muscle growth to IGF-1, so it obviously isn't particularly useful. That is akin to stating that Long R3 IGF-1 is a heart-specific growth factor, which obviously it isn't. Which only goes to show that some people, even with good intentions, misuse the presence or absence of information to draw crazy conclusions.
TeamSavage
Registered User
Grunt76 said:
Wasn't trying to start a debate about Oratropin-1, just wanted to give him my opinion of the situation.
You're right, though, that we are stuck in the "twilight of inconclusiveness" (nice phrase) until either there's a clinical trial done (doubtful) or else IBE can release the specifics of the delivery mechanism. (At this point it has all been quite vague, which apparently is due to restrictions put on them by the pharmaceutical developer of the delivery system.) I personally am convinced of the effectiveness of injectable IGF-1 LR3, so if we had enough information to know for sure that Oratropin's delivery mechanism is effective, that would be enough for me.Like I said, though, using Ora-1 during P.C.T. I didn't lose a single pound and continued to see strength gains, which is rather impressive IMO.
Grunt76
Well-known member
TeamSavage said:Wasn't trying to start a debate about Oratropin-1, just wanted to give him my opinion of the situation.
Like I said, though, using Ora-1 during P.C.T. I didn't lose a single pound and continued to see strength gains, which is rather impressive IMO.
Oh, I was not trying to state that you are bashing in any way, as most people who used Oratropin speak of benefits during the time they were taking it.
As a matter of fact, I prefer oratropin to injectable for PCT. It's that good.
FLX78
New member
Grunt76 said:
After reading this post, I looked into MGF and had some different answers to my questions. I read online that MGF will only live about 10 days in BW. When I called a research supplier, they claimed it would last up to a month in BA. Which one of these is true? It would seam like one hell of a waste to buy 1mg of MGF at a time, when it's only good for 10 days. Is there something better than BA to reconstitute it with?
BigMattTx
Active member
All I know is I followed Grunt's theology in designing my cycle of 4 weeks at 40mcg 2x/week. Worked great and allows for 3 cycles per mg of IGF-1!
Also, to all the people who debate over half-life and everything, heres my .02 on that--
I felt the effects of IGF-1 fall off 4-5 days after my last injection. I could definately feel a difference when I got off but it took several days for to notice it so this tells me that there is no need to inject more often then E3D, at least in my case.
Also, to all the people who debate over half-life and everything, heres my .02 on that--
I felt the effects of IGF-1 fall off 4-5 days after my last injection. I could definately feel a difference when I got off but it took several days for to notice it so this tells me that there is no need to inject more often then E3D, at least in my case.
TeamSavage
Registered User
Grunt76 said:
Interesting... thanks for the detailed answer.
So let's say you were following your protocol: injecting a moderate dose (40mcg bilaterally) E3D, as well as rotating between many different muscle groups. There's been some discussion that with this protocol IGF-1 could be used indefinitely. If diminishing results are due to all myoblasts being fused, however, then even with this protocol wouldn't the benefits still diminish and disappear eventually (probably after many months of use)?
jonesboy
Active member
so it seems to me that the real big difference between im and oratropin is that with oratropin you will not get the localized effects but everything else should be the same.. right?
i like the e3d.. what would you recommend for someone using hst .. i.e. working out eod to get the best bang for the buck. a 3 times a week protocol or still e3d? would it also be a waste to use it on days on which you are not at the gym... i would think you would get the fatloss benefits but would miss out on the best times for new muscle growth...
oh and this is by far the best post i have ever read.. great job!!!
i like the e3d.. what would you recommend for someone using hst .. i.e. working out eod to get the best bang for the buck. a 3 times a week protocol or still e3d? would it also be a waste to use it on days on which you are not at the gym... i would think you would get the fatloss benefits but would miss out on the best times for new muscle growth...
oh and this is by far the best post i have ever read.. great job!!!
Grunt76
Well-known member
I think 3 times a week is a GREAT way to run it. Most of my thread speaks of "EOD/E3D". One key is to get no two consecutive days pinning it. I like to use it only on workout days though, I feel you will get much less out of it when used on non-training days.jonesboy said:
One exception is of course on a carb-load. Whether in the final stages of contest prep, you aren't actually training, but the IGF-1 will make sure that everything you eat goes into your muscles, making spillover just about impossible, or of course on a good ole CKD where you will play pincushion during the carb-load phase and not do any during the week.
Sub7
Member
great thread gentlemen
one question I have is how effectively IGF travels within the muscle. when you pin biceps, I would guess it doesn't matter where you inject because biceps is a small muscle and the solution would likely reach most fibers. however when pinning deltiods -assume you inject into the medial head- will the IGF reach the frontal and rear heads, too? what about quads? In that case, you will have to at least chose between quad femoris, vastus medialis or vastus lateris, no? They are different muscles with different tendons, so I doubt the solution will travle from one of these muscles to the others?
(i do realize that there is some spillover and wherever you pin, there are some systemic effects anyway. what I ask is if for example you pin the vastus medialis, will vastus lateris only get a portion of the systemic effect or will it get more than that because it is close to the pinned muscle?)
thanks
one question I have is how effectively IGF travels within the muscle. when you pin biceps, I would guess it doesn't matter where you inject because biceps is a small muscle and the solution would likely reach most fibers. however when pinning deltiods -assume you inject into the medial head- will the IGF reach the frontal and rear heads, too? what about quads? In that case, you will have to at least chose between quad femoris, vastus medialis or vastus lateris, no? They are different muscles with different tendons, so I doubt the solution will travle from one of these muscles to the others?
(i do realize that there is some spillover and wherever you pin, there are some systemic effects anyway. what I ask is if for example you pin the vastus medialis, will vastus lateris only get a portion of the systemic effect or will it get more than that because it is close to the pinned muscle?)
thanks
Grunt76
Well-known member
Sub7 said:
That is a good question. You can expect local effects inside ONE muscle, but in most of it. So of course alternating heads is the right thing to do.
You will reach a good part of the muscle though because of this interesting characteristic of muscle fibers: they run the WHOLE LENGTH of the muscle. So if you think that your IGF-1 spreads to about the size of a ping-pong ball inside your muscle before it all goes to the bloodstream I think you have a good - but partial - mental picture of the amount of muscle that you are locally affecting. In fact, you are better imagining a ping-pong ball sized CYLINDER inside your muscle, since fibers run the length of it. Also, if you are mentally picturing this, it is obvious that diluting whatever is inside your needle into the largest volume possible (1cc) is the best thing to do: the more volume, the larger the cylinder of IGF-1'ed muscle cells...
Sub7
Member
Thank you very much Grunt.
Now it really isn't my intention to hijack the thread and mess up the outstanding work you done but I think there are a lot of guys here who have the same question I do:
If someone simply wants to put on the most muscle mass possible, which product to use (assume $ is no object): MGF, IGF LR3 or Oratotropin.
This has been asked a few times but since people never properly defined the circumstances that these products would be used under, the answer ended up being: "well, it depends". So if we can assume that the user is not doing any AAS (maybe never did them or maybe finished PCT and is in the "off period") and is simply looking for maximum muscle mass, what is the best product to use. Let us also assume that the user is not looking for instant gratification. Most of us are in it for the long-term. So, say that the individual wants to build the most muscle possible over the next 12 months and doesn't mind if the results are gradual or instant. He simply wants as much muscle as possible. Under those cases, which product is best?
Thanks a lot
Now it really isn't my intention to hijack the thread and mess up the outstanding work you done but I think there are a lot of guys here who have the same question I do:
If someone simply wants to put on the most muscle mass possible, which product to use (assume $ is no object): MGF, IGF LR3 or Oratotropin.
This has been asked a few times but since people never properly defined the circumstances that these products would be used under, the answer ended up being: "well, it depends". So if we can assume that the user is not doing any AAS (maybe never did them or maybe finished PCT and is in the "off period") and is simply looking for maximum muscle mass, what is the best product to use. Let us also assume that the user is not looking for instant gratification. Most of us are in it for the long-term. So, say that the individual wants to build the most muscle possible over the next 12 months and doesn't mind if the results are gradual or instant. He simply wants as much muscle as possible. Under those cases, which product is best?
Thanks a lot
Grunt76
Well-known member
Sub7 said:
I don't think you could say that one is better than the other, since MGF and IGF are the two peptide legs of muscle growth. Is one better than the other? In all likelihood it depends on one's genetics. MGF will be better than IGF for some people and vice-versa.
But as I stated above, they are complementary to each other and using one without the other *IS* sub-optimal. This is what you do:
1. Day off, pin MGF about the normal workout time
2. Training day, pin IGF-1 in the last muscle trained immediately postworkout
3. Training day, pin IGF-1 in the last muscle trained immediately postworkout
Repeat.
Of course you can pin the MGF on a training day, that works too.
Sub7
Member
Thanks much Grunt...
I have been hearing that MGF is a more fragile molecule and there is a higher probability of getting a bunk/damaged/useless product when you buy MGf compared to IGF LR3 (which people say the research suppliers have figured out by now how to manufacture and store). Is there any truth to this? Should we be extra careful when ordering MGF?
Thanks
I have been hearing that MGF is a more fragile molecule and there is a higher probability of getting a bunk/damaged/useless product when you buy MGf compared to IGF LR3 (which people say the research suppliers have figured out by now how to manufacture and store). Is there any truth to this? Should we be extra careful when ordering MGF?
Thanks
Grunt76
Well-known member
No, it would not. However, bear this in mind:jonesboy said:let me ask this then. Would it be a total waste of product if you didn't pin the the muscle group that you worked but always pinned in the lets say the glutes. (which in my case could use some growth)
By pinning always the same spot, you will quickly fuse all the available myoblasts. After a while, myoblast stores will be depleted, so no real new growth on that spot will be obtained. However, you will keep adding IGF-1 in equal or even higher doses, believing that more will produce SOMETHING.
At that point, in all likelihood the number of local receptors is at its lowest: the myoblasts are all fused and so there are no local myoblast receptors, only muscle receptors. In all likelihood the number of receptors is lower, and logically the number of receptors you can HIT on the first pass is lower. Thus, more for systemic effects.
Now if you pin your glutes twice a week, you will give the myoblasts a chance to re-proliferate, giving you steady results over time. Of course this is all prevented by using pegylated MGF, which is THE proliferator of myoblasts.
TeamSavage
Registered User
Grunt- What's your opinion on the fragility of IGF-1 after reconstitution? There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this... Some people say any sort of disturbance, shaking or impact (like knocking over the vial) will degrade the IGF-1, while others say it will be fine short of dropping it on the floor again and again.
Sub7
Member
Grunt,
Finally, would you be able to give us a reccomended dosing schedule for a IGF LR3 + MGF combo? I understand that this thread is about IGF primarily, but how would your suggested protocol/dosing for IGF change if MGF is thrown into the mix? How much MGF to obtain maximum synergy with UGF?
Thanks
Finally, would you be able to give us a reccomended dosing schedule for a IGF LR3 + MGF combo? I understand that this thread is about IGF primarily, but how would your suggested protocol/dosing for IGF change if MGF is thrown into the mix? How much MGF to obtain maximum synergy with UGF?
Thanks
Sub7
Member
2 Questions:
1- I guess the usage protocol above was for someone doing a 2on/1off split. In that case is he using 200-250mcg every 3 days? Oooops, that will get prohibitively expensive. Would it be possible to state what dosage and frequency you suggest for someone like me who trains each muscle once/week by lifting 3 or 4 times a week (split depends on diet, whether I am cutting/bulking etc). Assuming that I would use 40 mcg of IGF LR3 3 times a week. How much MGF would I ideally use? 200-250mcg once a week on one of the off days or 200-250mcg two times a week?
Also, for IGF, you guys suggest around 40 mcg in every syringe that you take to the gym with you. So if one buys 1 mg of IGF, which normally comes with 1 ml of AA solution, we will end up with 1 ml of solution containing 1,000 mcg of IGF. That makes 25 doses of 40 mcg each. Now you guys are telling me you can RELIABLY divide a tiny 1 ml of solution into 25 equal parts? I know the world won't come to an end if you are off by a mcg or two but still, how in the hell is that possible? Is there anyway of creating a more dillute solution of say 1 mg of IGF per 2-3 ml of solution? I know some of you guys dillute the solution with BW after you pull the IGF into the syringe but that does nothing to help with the dosing. To do that you first have to be able to draw 40 mcg into a syringe, no? Damn, help me out. I am brainfu@ked here...
1- I guess the usage protocol above was for someone doing a 2on/1off split. In that case is he using 200-250mcg every 3 days? Oooops, that will get prohibitively expensive. Would it be possible to state what dosage and frequency you suggest for someone like me who trains each muscle once/week by lifting 3 or 4 times a week (split depends on diet, whether I am cutting/bulking etc). Assuming that I would use 40 mcg of IGF LR3 3 times a week. How much MGF would I ideally use? 200-250mcg once a week on one of the off days or 200-250mcg two times a week?
Also, for IGF, you guys suggest around 40 mcg in every syringe that you take to the gym with you. So if one buys 1 mg of IGF, which normally comes with 1 ml of AA solution, we will end up with 1 ml of solution containing 1,000 mcg of IGF. That makes 25 doses of 40 mcg each. Now you guys are telling me you can RELIABLY divide a tiny 1 ml of solution into 25 equal parts? I know the world won't come to an end if you are off by a mcg or two but still, how in the hell is that possible? Is there anyway of creating a more dillute solution of say 1 mg of IGF per 2-3 ml of solution? I know some of you guys dillute the solution with BW after you pull the IGF into the syringe but that does nothing to help with the dosing. To do that you first have to be able to draw 40 mcg into a syringe, no? Damn, help me out. I am brainfu@ked here...
travbedaman
Member
If a person is wanting localized effects from IGF, let`s say biceps / triceps and that person worked out Mon, Tues, Thurs, and Fri...what would be a good dosing regimen?
EOD and E3D seem to be what is mostly recommended currently, but working out on those days above, neither one seems to fit the bill.
Any recommendations?
EOD and E3D seem to be what is mostly recommended currently, but working out on those days above, neither one seems to fit the bill.
Any recommendations?
travbedaman
Member
Grunt76 said:
Thanks Grunt. Do you think after a few weeks I may notice any possible pumps from pinning 2x per week @ 40 to 50 mcg`s each day?
Not that it matter I suppose, since I mainly want the localized growth down the road, but an extra pump would be nice.
Sub7
Member
Gents,
One thing that I have abit of a hard time understanding and a bit worried about is the (mild) hypoglecemia that people report after using IGF. I have gone through a lot of posts in this forum and others and even people who use around 60 mcg in the muscles trained notice a bit of a hypoglycemia. If the effects really are local, how can that be? If you are shoting into the biceps or shoulders for example, how much glycogen can these muscles take up or burn to make your blood sugar go down? Bis, delts or even tris are pretty small muscles and a bodybuilder would not start his training with empty glycogen stores anyway. So I am wondering, are there other systemic effects of IGF -even when shot IM- we are not aware of?
Thanks
Sub
One thing that I have abit of a hard time understanding and a bit worried about is the (mild) hypoglecemia that people report after using IGF. I have gone through a lot of posts in this forum and others and even people who use around 60 mcg in the muscles trained notice a bit of a hypoglycemia. If the effects really are local, how can that be? If you are shoting into the biceps or shoulders for example, how much glycogen can these muscles take up or burn to make your blood sugar go down? Bis, delts or even tris are pretty small muscles and a bodybuilder would not start his training with empty glycogen stores anyway. So I am wondering, are there other systemic effects of IGF -even when shot IM- we are not aware of?
Thanks
Sub
Grunt76
Well-known member
The blood doesn't contain that much sugar usually. And IGF-1 PUSHES sugar into muscles, meaning that this action is not necessarily limited by the normal ability for a given muscle to store glycogen. There are a number of ways to induce glycogen hypersaturation and IGF-1 seems to be one of them. I have just today exchanged PM's with one guy who, mismeasuring his IGF-1, was taking 400mcg while thinking he was doing only 40mcg. I have yet to have him describe the effects and I am eagerly awaiting that.Sub7 said: