My first Prohormone/DS cycle (M-Sten) - need some help!

timberx

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Hi!


So I am about to start my first real Prohormone/DS cycle with M-Sten in March, 12/20/20/20. I have a few questions about this cycle.

Anyone got gyno from M-Sten, that is my main worry and is there anything I should take on cycle to prevent it? I was thinking Inhibit-P during my cycle. I see some On Cycle Supports include Arimistane, is it a good idea to add Arimistane?

My on cycle support would be either CEL Cycle Assist or 5% Liver & Organ defender + Omega 3 and MN Lipid Stabil. I am aiming for NAC 1.8g and Tudca 1g + lots of water, anything else I should take for liver? For blood pressure I would buy also Carditone - Thanks @Hyde for recommending it. For "test base" I will use Dermacrine.

I am also worried about hair loss, anyone experienced any shedding from M-Sten? I am currently taking finasteride, minox and washing hair with Nizoral 4x a week. Is it worth trying ru58841?

For PCT I have Clomid (50/50/50/50) and will pick up some Nolvadren XT as my OTC test booster, this combo increases my testosterone way above range after LGD cycles, like 30% above range in just ~3 weeks.

Thanks!
 

bradleyt1

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Please don’t put that garbage in your body.. you’ll regret this stuff later on trust me
 
Bgram

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Hi!


So I am about to start my first real Prohormone/DS cycle with M-Sten in March, 12/20/20/20. I have a few questions about this cycle.

Anyone got gyno from M-Sten, that is my main worry and is there anything I should take on cycle to prevent it? I was thinking Inhibit-P during my cycle. I see some On Cycle Supports include Arimistane, is it a good idea to add Arimistane?

My on cycle support would be either CEL Cycle Assist or 5% Liver & Organ defender + Omega 3 and MN Lipid Stabil. I am aiming for NAC 1.8g and Tudca 1g + lots of water, anything else I should take for liver? For blood pressure I would buy also Carditone - Thanks @Hyde for recommending it. For "test base" I will use Dermacrine.

I am also worried about hair loss, anyone experienced any shedding from M-Sten? I am currently taking finasteride, minox and washing hair with Nizoral 4x a week. Is it worth trying ru58841?

For PCT I have Clomid (50/50/50/50) and will pick up some Nolvadren XT as my OTC test booster, this combo increases my testosterone way above range after LGD cycles, like 30% above range in just ~3 weeks.

Thanks!
TUDCA off cycle, will effect the results taken on with an Oral like M-Sten. Also M-Sten is an AAS not a Prohormone
 

timberx

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Please don’t put that garbage in your body.. you’ll regret this stuff later on trust me
I know that it is not healthy, which is why I want to make my cycle as "healthy" as possible. Also I am 31, I have been lifting since I was 15-16, so I have pretty much hit my limits and other than 3 LGD cycles I have been "natty" all my life. + I already bought M-Sten.
btw didnt you do cycles yourself? Are you speaking from experience?

TUDCA off cycle, will effect the results taken on with an Oral like M-Sten. Also M-Sten is an AAS not a Prohormone
Thanks, I did not know that about Tudca, maybe NAC + Choline then?
 
Hyde

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TUDCA off cycle, will effect the results taken on with an Oral like M-Sten. Also M-Sten is an AAS not a Prohormone
TUDCA should especially be used on cycle. You can even dose it with your androgens without issue. Research TUDCA’s mechanism of action and you will find nothing about inhibiting any nutrient absorption. TUDCA helps prevent hepatic cell walls from collapsing and blocking bile flow when the liver is under duress. It also has some positive effects on insulin sensitivity.

With Carditone, if you find bp rising start light. 1 tab eod or daily. Only go up to 2 if bp isn’t being controlled with 1 or eod.

Inhibit P is never a bad idea. Arimistane only changes E by a negligible few points and isn’t really effective except as a cosmetic for drying out some. Consider something like SNS Inhibit E, BLR Letrozole or Apex Alchemy’s topical 6-Bromo if you feel you need a little estrogen help and don’t want to get some Exemestane. Something like Morphogen Nutrition Morphocalm is great for estrogen & cortisol modulation in PCT.

Everything makes sense to me except your Clomid dose. 25mg daily will be plenty sufficient and much lower on sides. I typically only do 50mg for a few days or a week before going to 25mg.
 

timberx

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TUDCA should especially be used on cycle. You can even dose it with your androgens without issue. Research TUDCA’s mechanism of action and you will find nothing about inhibiting any nutrient absorption. TUDCA helps prevent hepatic cell walls from collapsing and blocking bile flow when the liver is under duress. It also has some positive effects on insulin sensitivity.

With Carditone, if you find bp rising start light. 1 tab eod or daily. Only go up to 2 if bp isn’t being controlled with 1 or eod.

Inhibit P is never a bad idea. Arimistane only changes E by a negligible few points and isn’t really effective except as a cosmetic for drying out some. Consider something like SNS Inhibit E, BLR Letrozole or Apex Alchemy’s topical 6-Bromo if you feel you need a little estrogen help and don’t want to get some Exemestane. Something like Morphogen Nutrition Morphocalm is great for estrogen & cortisol modulation in PCT.

Everything makes sense to me except your Clomid dose. 25mg daily will be plenty sufficient and much lower on sides. I typically only do 50mg for a few days or a week before going to 25mg.
Thanks, I always learn a lot from your posts! I have 6-bromo pills from Fusion Supplements, would you recommend topical instead? I assume Inhibit-P during cycle and SNS Inhibit E/6-bromo post cycle? Any idea about RU58841 to prevent/minimize hair loss? I am getting a hair transplant in autumn anwyays, but I want to keep what I have until then! :)
 
Rad83

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Bottle gonna go quick (real muthafukkin quick )

Could a beginner see gainzz from 4-8mg of msten?
 
Bgram

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TUDCA should especially be used on cycle. You can even dose it with your androgens without issue. Research TUDCA’s mechanism of action and you will find nothing about inhibiting any nutrient absorption. TUDCA helps prevent hepatic cell walls from collapsing and blocking bile flow when the liver is under duress. It also has some positive effects on insulin sensitivity.

With Carditone, if you find bp rising start light. 1 tab eod or daily. Only go up to 2 if bp isn’t being controlled with 1 or eod.

Inhibit P is never a bad idea. Arimistane only changes E by a negligible few points and isn’t really effective except as a cosmetic for drying out some. Consider something like SNS Inhibit E, BLR Letrozole or Apex Alchemy’s topical 6-Bromo if you feel you need a little estrogen help and don’t want to get some Exemestane. Something like Morphogen Nutrition Morphocalm is great for estrogen & cortisol modulation in PCT.

Everything makes sense to me except your Clomid dose. 25mg daily will be plenty sufficient and much lower on sides. I typically only do 50mg for a few days or a week before going to 25mg.
Running TUDCA WHILE RUNNING ORALS EFFECTS THE BIOAVAILABILITY of the compound
 
Bgram

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TUDCA should especially be used on cycle. You can even dose it with your androgens without issue. Research TUDCA’s mechanism of action and you will find nothing about inhibiting any nutrient absorption. TUDCA helps prevent hepatic cell walls from collapsing and blocking bile flow when the liver is under duress. It also has some positive effects on insulin sensitivity.

With Carditone, if you find bp rising start light. 1 tab eod or daily. Only go up to 2 if bp isn’t being controlled with 1 or eod.

Inhibit P is never a bad idea. Arimistane only changes E by a negligible few points and isn’t really effective except as a cosmetic for drying out some. Consider something like SNS Inhibit E, BLR Letrozole or Apex Alchemy’s topical 6-Bromo if you feel you need a little estrogen help and don’t want to get some Exemestane. Something like Morphogen Nutrition Morphocalm is great for estrogen & cortisol modulation in PCT.

Everything makes sense to me except your Clomid dose. 25mg daily will be plenty sufficient and much lower on sides. I typically only do 50mg for a few days or a week before going to 25mg.
Running TUDCA WHILE RUNNING ORALS EFFECTS THE BIOAVAILABILITY of the compound
 
Bgram

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TUDCA should especially be used on cycle. You can even dose it with your androgens without issue. Research TUDCA’s mechanism of action and you will find nothing about inhibiting any nutrient absorption. TUDCA helps prevent hepatic cell walls from collapsing and blocking bile flow when the liver is under duress. It also has some positive effects on insulin sensitivity.

With Carditone, if you find bp rising start light. 1 tab eod or daily. Only go up to 2 if bp isn’t being controlled with 1 or eod.

Inhibit P is never a bad idea. Arimistane only changes E by a negligible few points and isn’t really effective except as a cosmetic for drying out some. Consider something like SNS Inhibit E, BLR Letrozole or Apex Alchemy’s topical 6-Bromo if you feel you need a little estrogen help and don’t want to get some Exemestane. Something like Morphogen Nutrition Morphocalm is great for estrogen & cortisol modulation in PCT.

Everything makes sense to me except your Clomid dose. 25mg daily will be plenty sufficient and much lower on sides. I typically only do 50mg for a few days or a week before going to 25mg.
Running TUDCA WHILE RUNNING ORALS EFFECTS THE BIOAVAILABILITY of the compound
Ugh no it doesn’t.
Alright mr broscience
 

Joshinator

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Running TUDCA WHILE RUNNING ORALS EFFECTS THE BIOAVAILABILITY of the compound


Alright mr broscience
Im glad this was brought up. The other argument ive heard against tudca on cycle is that it can cause the oral aas to be excreted from the liver faster and thus “shortening” the half life.

Ive never seen any scientific research to back either claim. Is there research? or are you both quoting broscience? — if theres research post please
 
Renew1

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Im glad this was brought up. The other argument ive heard against tudca on cycle is that it can cause the oral aas to be excreted from the liver faster and thus “shortening” the half life.

Ive never seen any scientific research to back either claim. Is there research? or are you both quoting broscience? — if theres research post please
That's not how that works with the liver.

If you read the papers on TUDCA and learn how it works, you can see that there isn't a mechanism that would limit bioavailability of steroids by taking TUDCA.
 
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Harishusain

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Please don’t put that garbage in your body.. you’ll regret this stuff later on trust me
Please don't post on the forums if you are not going to have any constructive contribution to the thread. I say this with all due respect, but the OP has already decided that he is interested in proceeding with a cycle; coming on to an anabolics forum to talk people out of anabolics sounds like a futile struggle. Keep it real, give them the information/suggestions they're looking for and leave the rest up to them.
 
Scouse01

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Please don't post on the forums if you are not going to have any constructive contribution to the thread. I say this with all due respect, but the OP has already decided that he is interested in proceeding with a cycle; coming on to an anabolics forum to talk people out of anabolics sounds like a futile struggle. Keep it real, give them the information/suggestions they're looking for and leave the rest up to them.
Why has he said this?? Is there a reason against Msten or is has he just got an issue with AAS?

I've just finished a cycle on Msten, so this has really pissed me off. I want to know why he thinks this incase I've missed something. I don't believe I have, but I want to know if he knows something that we do not know. I doubt that too 🤣
 
Harishusain

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Why has he said this?? Is there a reason against Msten or is has he just got an issue with AAS?

I've just finished a cycle on Msten, so this has really pissed me off. I want to know why he thinks this incase I've missed something. I don't believe I have, but I want to know if he knows something that we do not know. I doubt that too 🤣
I think there are milder options out there for a first timer, but I believe it's a predisposition against AAS. I appreciate anyone who cares enough to make sure that the OP knows and understands what the risks are and advises against it, but these one liner comments are never really helpful.
 
booneman77

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On cycle:
CEL Cycle Assist
CEL TUDCA (1g/day is a solid dose)

No need for inhibit p and def. no need for anything with arimistane (your joints will be dry enough as it is with msten)

MSten will likely have you shedding so if that's a concern, get ready for that. Personally I don't have that issue though so I will refrain from making recommendations.

For PCT I would add SNS Reduce XT for cortisol control (it will spike in PCT due to the hormones being all over the place). Any natty anabolics and such (CEL Anabolic Effect, SNS Xgels, etc) are all great addtions if you have the money as they will keep you feeling more "on" vs just feeling like crap while hormones recover and things normalize.
 
Hyde

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Thanks, I always learn a lot from your posts! I have 6-bromo pills from Fusion Supplements, would you recommend topical instead? I assume Inhibit-P during cycle and SNS Inhibit E/6-bromo post cycle? Any idea about RU58841 to prevent/minimize hair loss? I am getting a hair transplant in autumn anwyays, but I want to keep what I have until then! :)
6-bromo pills would be ideal in my opinion, especially because you have them and they’re stronger than the other otc options listed and more convenient than a transdermal. You will likely only need them if you have higher bodyfat and have some existing gyno from puberty or the LGD runs. But it’s good to have something on hand.

I have never shed. BP, lipids, gyno are the sides I have to battle. But I do wash with Nizoral a few times per week on cycle. I have heard positive things on RU from Ricky Blobby on here, but zero experience with it.

Running TUDCA WHILE RUNNING ORALS EFFECTS THE BIOAVAILABILITY of the compound

Alright mr broscience
Tell you what: chew through this list of dozens upon dozens of PubMed & Google Scholar links to studies on UDCA/TUDCA/NorUDCA in treating the liver, and if you can show me something conclusive that you truly feel validates your unsubstantiated claim I will be happy to review it. But all I’ve read focuses on preventing cell death, not increasing clearance rates beyond a normally functioning liver.

 
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timberx

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On cycle:
CEL Cycle Assist
CEL TUDCA (1g/day is a solid dose)

No need for inhibit p and def. no need for anything with arimistane (your joints will be dry enough as it is with msten)

MSten will likely have you shedding so if that's a concern, get ready for that. Personally I don't have that issue though so I will refrain from making recommendations.

For PCT I would add SNS Reduce XT for cortisol control (it will spike in PCT due to the hormones being all over the place). Any natty anabolics and such (CEL Anabolic Effect, SNS Xgels, etc) are all great addtions if you have the money as they will keep you feeling more "on" vs just feeling like crap while hormones recover and things normalize.
6-bromo pills would be ideal in my opinion, especially because you have them and they’re stronger than the other otc options listed and more convenient than a transdermal. You will likely only need them if you have higher bodyfat and have some existing gyno from puberty or the LGD runs. But it’s good to have something on hand.

I have never shed. BP, lipids, gyno are the sides I have to battle. But I do wash with Nizoral a few times per week on cycle. I have heard positive things on RU from Ricky Blobby on here, but zero experience with it.



Tell you what: chew through this list of dozens upon dozens of PubMed & Google Scholar links to studies on UDCA/TUDCA/NorUDCA in treating the liver, and if you can show me something conclusive that you truly feel validates your unsubstantiated claim I will be happy to review it. But all I’ve read focuses on preventing cell death, not increasing clearance rates beyond a normally functioning liver.

Thanks a lot! I will update this topic when I start my cycle in March, I will order RU58841 and start using it a week before my cycle. I will also do blood tests as they are very cheap in my country and I also like to see how my body reacts to each PED. I had great gains from my LGD cycles, so I expect even better gains from M-Sten, will see!
 

UNX

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AFAIK, some people report systemic effects from topical RU58841. If that's the case, I would avoid it at all cost.
 

timberx

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AFAIK, some people report systemic effects from topical RU58841. If that's the case, I would avoid it at all cost.
Thanks, I will pay close attention to that, I did some research on that myself - these studies suggest that no systemic effects were detected, but these studies are also like 20 years old....:

However, RU58841, on topical application, revealed a potent increase in density, thickening, and length of hair in the macaque model of androgenetic alopecia, whereas no systemic effects were detected. Together our results suggest that RU58841 may have potent antagonism to the wt AR and could be considered as a topically applied active anti-androgen for the treatment of androgen-dependent skin disorders, such as acne, androgenetic alopecia, and hirsutism.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9798729

&


https://books.google.com/books?id=LArIvFsBE3IC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=systemic+effects+from+topical+RU58841
 

DrChicken

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On cycle:
CEL Cycle Assist
CEL TUDCA (1g/day is a solid dose)

No need for inhibit p and def. no need for anything with arimistane (your joints will be dry enough as it is with msten)

MSten will likely have you shedding so if that's a concern, get ready for that. Personally I don't have that issue though so I will refrain from making recommendations.

For PCT I would add SNS Reduce XT for cortisol control (it will spike in PCT due to the hormones being all over the place). Any natty anabolics and such (CEL Anabolic Effect, SNS Xgels, etc) are all great addtions if you have the money as they will keep you feeling more "on" vs just feeling like crap while hormones recover and things normalize.
Check DMs pls
 

bradleyt1

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I call it garbage because that’s what these oral toxic compounds are.. for the kids in fuking highschool that want to put 20 lbs in a month and look swole Over night. But hey that’s just my opinion.
 

lvft1213

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Oo
I call it garbage because that’s what these oral toxic compounds are.. for the kids in fuking highschool that want to put 20 lbs in a month and look swole Over night. But hey that’s just my opinion.
So wrong. Orals are highly used in competition prep. Why wait 8 ish weeks for less results on test than 4 weeks of anadrol on top of test
 

bradleyt1

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Oo

So wrong. Orals are highly used in competition prep. Why wait 8 ish weeks for less results on test than 4 weeks of anadrol on top of test
Yes I myself have competed and you are right orals are used. But real AAS not designers. I just think that my approach now is so different than when I first joined this forum back in 2011 or earlier.. my mindset back then was obsessed with googling and researching every new prohormone that was out there like on PHF forum. And now it’s about longevity and living a long time.
 

lvft1213

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Yes I myself have competed and you are right orals are used. But real AAS not designers. I just think that my approach now is so different than when I first joined this forum back in 2011 or earlier.. my mindset back then was obsessed with googling and researching every new prohormone that was out there like on PHF forum. And now it’s about longevity and living a long time.
Then u should know designers are real aas
 

timberx

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So a small update, I decided AGAINST taking RU58841, I will be using TOPICAL finasteride & Minox on my scalp instead, I will keep using them also after my cycle. So pretty much Nizoral, Topical finasteride and 5% minox - I will start Topical finasteride next week when it arrives.

Good read about topical finasteride - if anyone is interested:

"A New Topical Formulation of Minoxidil and Finasteride Improves Hair Growth in Men with Androgenetic Alopecia" - (Journal of Clinical & Experimental Dermatology Research )

https://www.longdom.org/open-access/a-new-topical-formulation-of-minoxidil-and-finasteride-improves-hair-growth-in-men-with-androgenetic-alopecia-2155-9554.1000253.pdf

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/new-topical-finasteride-study-efficacy-sides.117896/
 

bradleyt1

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Then u should know designers are real aas
Ofcourse to us we know that because we do nothing but live on forums.. but people that compete who are top level ifbb that I know personally don’t even bother with forums. And laugh at any thing basically over the counter like sarms and ****.. I’m not saying that they are right because obviously these supplements do work.. it’s just they all seem to be more on board with the tried and true compounds. Don’t know why people down voting my post because what I said about young inexperienced lifters looking for the oral steroid insta gratification is true.. i much rather run 250mg test for much longer duration and get much more attainable gains then an oral.. plus once you stop and lose the “look” I just think mentally you will never be the same.
 
Scouse01

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What do you mean 'mentally' ?
Ofcourse to us we know that because we do nothing but live on forums.. but people that compete who are top level ifbb that I know personally don’t even bother with forums. And laugh at any thing basically over the counter like sarms and ****.. I’m not saying that they are right because obviously these supplements do work.. it’s just they all seem to be more on board with the tried and true compounds. Don’t know why people down voting my post because what I said about young inexperienced lifters looking for the oral steroid insta gratification is true.. i much rather run 250mg test for much longer duration and get much more attainable gains then an oral.. plus once you stop and lose the “look” I just think mentally you will never be the same.
 

lvft1213

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Ofcourse to us we know that because we do nothing but live on forums.. but people that compete who are top level ifbb that I know personally don’t even bother with forums. And laugh at any thing basically over the counter like sarms and ****.. I’m not saying that they are right because obviously these supplements do work.. it’s just they all seem to be more on board with the tried and true compounds. Don’t know why people down voting my post because what I said about young inexperienced lifters looking for the oral steroid insta gratification is true.. i much rather run 250mg test for much longer duration and get much more attainable gains then an oral.. plus once you stop and lose the “look” I just think mentally you will never be the same.
Cuz the forums are filled with bullsh it only a few have good physique s and know wut they are doing I’m fully aware no one runs these compounds at elite level but let’s face it they’re wicked strong and toxic I like that first part
 
Hlee33

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Hi!


So I am about to start my first real Prohormone/DS cycle with M-Sten in March, 12/20/20/20. I have a few questions about this cycle.

Anyone got gyno from M-Sten, that is my main worry and is there anything I should take on cycle to prevent it? I was thinking Inhibit-P during my cycle. I see some On Cycle Supports include Arimistane, is it a good idea to add Arimistane?

My on cycle support would be either CEL Cycle Assist or 5% Liver & Organ defender + Omega 3 and MN Lipid Stabil. I am aiming for NAC 1.8g and Tudca 1g + lots of water, anything else I should take for liver? For blood pressure I would buy also Carditone - Thanks @Hyde for recommending it. For "test base" I will use Dermacrine.

I am also worried about hair loss, anyone experienced any shedding from M-Sten? I am currently taking finasteride, minox and washing hair with Nizoral 4x a week. Is it worth trying ru58841?

For PCT I have Clomid (50/50/50/50) and will pick up some Nolvadren XT as my OTC test booster, this combo increases my testosterone way above range after LGD cycles, like 30% above range in just ~3 weeks.

Thanks!


The last thing you would want to do is inhibit estrogen. M-sten is going to shut you down, and shut you down fast. The reason this is such a poor option is because you will not have enough estrogen converting because you won't be making much Test at all. With low estrogen you will feel like dog ****. I There is 500 million reasons I would say you need either Test, 4-ad, or something that converts to estrogen. Even TD DHEA wouldn't be a bad idea. If you really don't want to take test, you could even throw 5mg dbol in twice a day. An estrogen less cycle sounds like hell. sounds like a limp Weiner, an unprotected brain and heart. sounds depressing.
PCT is fine
Sure take Tudca but Liver toxicity is wayyyyy hyped up. I would be concerned with BP, Cholesterol, Lipid profile, and kidney function on a designer like this long before I would worry about liver stress. 6 weeks on 1 oral? Your liver will be fine.
 

bradleyt1

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I’d like to hear more about estrogen and protecting the heart and brain. Can you elaborate? Thanks!
 
Hlee33

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I’d like to hear more about estrogen and protecting the heart and brain. Can you elaborate? Thanks!
IF you look up labcorp (who we use for blood testing) they have a reference range for estrogen. It varies country to country but estrogen NEEDs to be in that range for our biological processes to function. Dbol was once used as an anti depression medication for housewives in the 50s. Why? Because the methylated estrogen replaced the estrogen their brain was no longer getting. No estrogen will destroy cholesterol, create cognitive issues, as well as leave you unprotected from oxidative stress. Not only is estrogen crucial, the process of converted the primary androgen into estrogen is also crucial to our biological system.
 
Rad83

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Simple...Run Dermacrine and it should suffice for any 4-10 week andro/sarm/DS cycle.

I’m curious though, If one used Dermacrine and wanted to throw some 4 andro in, would they need less 4 andro? ...330mg + of the andros gets expensive quick
 

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