Msten

2kvette said:
It is not elevated enzymes that cause lethargy.
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Alright so everyone who has lethargy on methylstenbolone is undergoing Cholestasis and jaundice?

I don't understand what you are getting at
 
Movin_weight said:
Alright so everyone who has lethargy on methylstenbolone is undergoing Cholestasis and jaundice?

I don't understand what you are getting at
Click to expand...

Okay, here is how it works.

1) you take something that messes with bile acid production or composition.
2) the bile ducts slowly start getting clogged up
3) eventually they get to a point where UDCA concentration in bile is insufficient to maintain solubility and it literally turns into this yellow looking sludge stuff
4) the sludge gets stuck in the biliary ducts and impedes bile release into the duodenum
6) you now have cholestasis

7) bile production continues inside the liver despite the inability for it to drain
8) the bile builds up and gets to a certain point where the liver cells burst
9) the bursting of the cells spills bile, cellular contents, and enzymes into the bloodstream through the portal vein and the rest of the hepatic vasculature.
10) you now have cholestatic jaundice and elevated liver enzymes in serum

Lethargy is a classic symptom of cholestasis, and slowly begins once bile acid flow begins to decrease. Basically when you start feeling lethargic your bile flow has begun to decline. UDCA/TUDCA offset the decline by improving bile salt composition so it won't become static in the ducts. It's so effective at improving composition of the bile that it is used and approved by the FDA to dissolve gallstones that result from the aforementioned yellow sludge sitting around too long.

If you don't get it after this, my next post will be about the inverse relationship between testosterone levels and IQ.
 
2kvette said:
Okay, here is how it works.

1) you take something that messes with bile acid production or composition.
2) the bile ducts slowly start getting clogged up
3) eventually they get to a point where UDCA concentration in bile is insufficient to maintain solubility and it literally turns into this yellow looking sludge stuff
4) the sludge gets stuck in the biliary ducts and impedes bile release into the duodenum
6) you now have cholestasis

7) bile production continues inside the liver despite the inability for it to drain
8) the bile builds up and gets to a certain point where the liver cells burst
9) the bursting of the cells spills bile, cellular contents, and enzymes into the bloodstream through the portal vein and the rest of the hepatic vasculature.
10) you now have cholestatic jaundice and elevated liver enzymes in serum

Lethargy is a classic symptom of cholestasis, and slowly begins once bile acid flow begins to decrease. Basically when you start feeling lethargic your bile flow has begun to decline. UDCA/TUDCA offset the decline by improving bile salt composition so it won't become static in the ducts. It's so effective at improving composition of the bile that it is used and approved by the FDA to dissolve gallstones that result from the aforementioned yellow sludge sitting around too long.

If you don't get it after this, my next post will be about the inverse relationship between testosterone levels and IQ.
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I appreciate the long post and the physiology... I understand the mechanisms of action regarding cholestasis. Just wasn't convinced that the lethargy most people feel when running short cycles of methylated compounds was due to this. I feel most people's normal liver function is effective enough to handle short term use of these compounds. Would you disagree?
 
Movin_weight said:
I appreciate the long post and the physiology... I understand the mechanisms of action regarding cholestasis. Just wasn't convinced that the lethargy most people feel when running short cycles of methylated compounds was due to this. I feel most people's normal liver function is effective enough to handle short term use of these compounds. Would you disagree?
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No, absolutely, you are correct. Short term use, say 4 weeks, is far easier on the liver than 4 weeks of Tylenol or alcohol. I believe the literature reflects that.
 
2kvette said:
No, absolutely, you are correct. Short term use, say 4 weeks, is far easier on the liver than 4 weeks of Tylenol or alcohol. I believe the literature reflects that.
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That was really the main point of my posting... I realize I was using incorrect terminology when referring to elevated enzymes and lethargy.

I was more or less saying that when the OP was posting about lethargy after 2 weeks on sten, that it was highly unlikely that it was liver related. That cycle supports for the average cycle doesn't hurt anything, but prob isn't really preventing anything unless there is already an underlying condition.... or if we are talking major abuse.

That there are other physiological events occurring that are more likely causing the user reported fatigue or lethargy in the average healthy AAS user. Does that sound like a reasonable extrapolation from what information is available regarding drugs that cause hepatoxicity?
 
Choppedjunior said:
I would say you'll gains 10-15 lbs. end up keeping around 5lbs or so. Did it twice around there were my end results. I have four bottles left not even sure I'll use as I'm seeing the same effects with Sarms and much safer I believe.
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Good to know, I am looking at options to pack on more size myself and not sure I want to harm my liver lol
 
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