Melatonin & androgen receptors

[muchstronger2]

Not sure whether I'm correctly understanding the conclusions of this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12127045/

Is it to say that Melatonin supplementation downregulates androgen receptors and that would affect testosterone binding and expression?

Or is it just a short and local activity that has no noticeable impact?

I'm interested into that considering I've been supplementing daily 0.5mg for a year. My sleep is a lot better than before supplementation, but libido is definitely not as good

 

[johnnyp]

I've actually read it improves T levles https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12065466

 

[Jiigzz]

Not sure whether I'm correctly understanding the conclusions of this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12127045/

Is it to say that Melatonin supplementation downregulates androgen receptors and that would affect testosterone binding and expression?

Or is it just a short and local activity that has no noticeable impact?

I'm interested into that considering I've been supplementing daily 0.5mg for a year. My sleep is a lot better than before supplementation, but libido is definitely not as good

It doesn't say that in the abstract. It says it does not affect AR expression or binding

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Melatonin has been shown to be, and let me use a very scientific term here : F'n awesome when you take a sane amount, on an empty stomach close to bed time.

 

[muchstronger2]

I've actually read it improves T levles https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12065466

We are not talking T levels here, but whether its binding to androgen receptors is affected by Melatonin intake.

You could have 1200ng/dl levels and poor receptor activity, making you less of a male than a guy with 500ng/dl and proper androgen receptors activity. Asian males are one example of that

 

[muchstronger2]

Melatonin has been shown to be, and let me use a very scientific term here : F'n awesome when you take a sane amount, on an empty stomach close to bed time.

I agree that it's made a tremendous difference in my quality of life, especially when I don't go over 500mcg. Natural nocturnal production is anywhere between 80-120mcg, so it's already a lot.

Have you tried the time-release melatonin? How would you compare it to the instant delivery one?

 

[Synapsin]

Melatonin has been shown to be, and let me use a very scientific term here : F'n awesome when you take a sane amount, on an empty stomach close to bed time.

Not close to bed time actually, but a few hours before. The point of taking melatonin is to increase levels of melatonin in your body before the natural endogenous surge of melatonin occurs that makes you "sleepy"; this is what makes melatonin "chronobiotic".

Also time release melatonin is just a waste of money.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Not close to bed time actually, but a few hours before. The point of taking melatonin is to increase levels of melatonin in your body before the natural endogenous surge of melatonin occurs that makes you "sleepy"; this is what makes melatonin "chronobiotic".

Also time release melatonin is just a waste of money.

Ah, you know me man, I just go by what I read on Suppversity:

Bottom line: Taking melatonin before a meal and / or anytime but 1-2h before bed is not just going to ruin its beneficial metabolic effects, it's actually going to ruin your insulin sensitivity. So, if you want to use it, make sure you do so at the correct time point.

I take it at 9PM and am almost in a Coma by 10PM. Couldn't Imagine taking it any earlier. But I get trying to mimic/bolster what happens when the eye detects the sun going down and light fading - that's just too early for me! 

 

[Jiigzz]

Not sure whether I'm correctly understanding the conclusions of this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12127045/

Is it to say that Melatonin supplementation downregulates androgen receptors and that would affect testosterone binding and expression?

Or is it just a short and local activity that has no noticeable impact?

I'm interested into that considering I've been supplementing daily 0.5mg for a year. My sleep is a lot better than before supplementation, but libido is definitely not as good

I had a read of the FT, but didn't dedicate much time to it. Seems quite specific to cancerous cell lines so I stopped there. I know only the very basics of cancer etiology and won't even attempt to apply this to "healthy" humans

 

[muchstronger2]

I had a read of the FT, but didn't dedicate much time to it. Seems quite specific to cancerous cell lines so I stopped there. I know only the very basics of cancer etiology and won't even attempt to apply this to "healthy" humans

It looks like there is no definitive study on this particular point in healthy individuals, so I'll take the chance to ask this to individuals on here:

Has anyone, taking melatonin regularly in sane amounts ie <1mg at bedtime, experienced a decrease in muscle mass over time as well as a libido reduction?

 

[Jiigzz]

It looks like there is no definitive study on this particular point in healthy individuals, so I'll take the chance to ask this to individuals on here:

Has anyone, taking melatonin regularly in sane amounts ie <1mg at bedtime, experienced a decrease in muscle mass over time as well as a libido reduction?

for one, the abstract states no loss of AR binding or expression, two, this Is not applicable to healthy humans, and three, there is no way you could quantify anecdotally this happening. I really do think you are overthinking this haha

 

[muchstronger2]

for one, the abstract states no loss of AR binding or expression, two, this Is not applicable to healthy humans, and three, there is no way you could quantify anecdotally this happening. I really do think you are overthinking this haha

I will take individual reports from those willing to report this finding anyways, if you allow me ;-)

 

[Jiigzz]

I will take individual reports from those willing to report this finding anyways, if you allow me ;-)

lol. If you post a study, expect people to critique how you interpret it

 

[muchstronger2]

lol. If you post a study, expect people to critique how you interpret it

And you are more than welcome to do so, without necessarily closing the door to anecdotal reports from this board.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Has anyone, taking melatonin regularly in sane amounts ie <1mg at bedtime, experienced a decrease in muscle mass over time as well as a libido reduction?

"Sane" amounts is subjective I guess, because I started with about 1mg (1.25mg as I quartered a 5mg sub-lingual tablet) and have settled on the whole 5mg tablet as being most effective for *me* (older people usually need more). No loss of muscle mass as measured by an Omron 4 Point BIA Scale (it does muscle mass) *and* I keep adding Reps or Weight going on almost 3 years of continuous training. Libido is fine as well. I've been taking Melatonin for years.

Also see: http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2015/02/will-melatonin-reduce-your-testosterone.html

If", "likely" and "proxy" are yet not the words I like to use when I am trying to present conclusive evidence. That's why I am happy that researchers from the Haemek Medical Center did a study that can be considered "evidence" without "ifs" and "proxies". In their study, Lubosh1tzky et al. (2000) studied the effects of melatonin of 6 mg given orally every day at 1700 h for 1 month in a double-blind, placebo controlled fashion, on the nocturnal secretory profiles of luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone and inhibin β in six healthy adult men. The serum concentrations of LH, FSH, testosterone and inhibin β were determined before and after treatment every 15 min from 1900 to 0700 h over 3 nights in a controlled dark-light environment with simultaneous polysomnographic sleep recordings. What they found were no statistically significant differences in either LH, FSH, testosterone and inhibin β integrated nocturnal secretion values during the whole treatment period. Likewise, their pulsatile characteristics during melatonin treatment were not different from baseline values. As the scientists point out: "Taken together, these data suggest that long-term melatonin administration does not alter the secretory patterns of reproductive hormones in normal men" (Lubosh1tzky. 2000)

No, no and no! Since Lubosh1tzky's study from 2000 is not the only study that showed no effect of melatonin on testosterone (Weinerg. 1980; Wright. 1986, Petterborg. 1991), I can only repeat what I told those of you who messaged me before: There is no conclusive evidence that melatonin administered correctly, i.e. before bed, would have negative effects on the amount of testosterone that's floating through your veins. I hope this settles your concerns, because meltatonin is, as I have pointed out in several previous articles quite a marvelous supplement. Not a "must have", but certainly one of the supplements that ranks very high on the "certainly useful" scale .

 

[muchstronger2]

"Sane" amounts is subjective I guess, because I started with about 1mg (1.25mg as I quartered a 5mg sub-lingual tablet) and have settled on the whole 5mg tablet as being most effective for *me* (older people usually need more). No loss of muscle mass as measured by an Omron 4 Point BIA Scale (it does muscle mass) *and* I keep adding Reps or Weight going on almost 3 years of continuous training. Libido is fine as well. I've been taking Melatonin for years.

Also see: http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2015/02/will-melatonin-reduce-your-testosterone.html

Sane isn't subjective, sane is what most perfectly mimicks nature's patterns.
As we produce around 100mcg melatonin at night, a dose as close as possible to that value is considered sane.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Sane isn't subjective, sane is what most perfectly mimicks nature's patterns.
As we produce around 100mcg melatonin at night, a dose as close as possible to that value is considered sane.

A lot of researchers consider 6-13mg perfectly fine. Examine shows no problems with basal secretion or negative feedback with 500mcg to 5mg. One case study with a Blind Person taking 50mg also showed no problems.

Re: How much "we" produce naturally - seems to be variable (Examine):

Melatonin appears to fluctuate with age, decreasing steadily after puberty, but undergoing a significant decrease in average nightly melatonin levels around the ages of 41-60.

In Section 3.1. Transportation in Serum, it goes back and forth, with a Blue Box stating:

Although differences between very low (300-500mcg) and higher (3-5mg) doses tend to go back and forth in regard to efficacy, both seem to be more potent than superloaded doses (20mg).

Like I said, 5mg works great for me, with no long term negative side effects. N=1

 

[anabolix]

Also time release melatonin is just a waste of money.

I don't agree. Either form makes me fall asleep equally as well, but the sustained release keeps me asleep for another hour or two. After sleeping for 6 hours on regular melatonin, I start waking up. The extended release consistently prolongs this for an hour or two longer...which is perfect. Maybe im just different though, because I don't ascribe to the high doses that some use...all that does is give me a hangover. 200-500 mcg's is perfect for me personally. That's enough to make me sleep, yet too little to give me a hangover. Based on trial/error and some things I've read, it's the fact that your melatonin levels are rising that makes you tired and gets your body ready for sleep...all about the shift from baseline levels. You dont need much, just enough to elevate your levels slightly from where they were earlier in the day.

 

[Synapsin]

I don't agree. Either form makes me fall asleep equally as well, but the sustained release keeps me asleep for another hour or two. After sleeping for 6 hours on regular melatonin, I start waking up. The extended release consistently prolongs this for an hour or two longer...which is perfect. Maybe im just different though, because I don't ascribe to the high doses that some use...all that does is give me a hangover. 200-500 mcg's is perfect for me personally. That's enough to make me sleep, yet too little to give me a hangover. Based on trial/error and some things I've read, it's the fact that your melatonin levels are rising that makes you tired and gets your body ready for sleep...all about the shift from baseline levels. You dont need much, just enough to elevate your levels slightly from where they were earlier in the day.

That is why time release does not matter. Your body will eventually have a sudden surge, making time release pointless.

 

[anabolix]

That is why time release does not matter. Your body will eventually have a sudden surge, making time release pointless.

It matters to me that I get an extra hour or two of sleep at night . Extended release melatonin does work to extend sleep. The natural surge happens before the time release happens, and when it does, it keeps you drowsy. With regular melatonin, your levels drop sooner which allows you to start waking up. Have you experimented with it at all?

 

[Synapsin]

It matters to me that I get an extra hour or two of sleep at night . Extended release melatonin does work to extend sleep. The natural surge happens before the time release happens, and when it does, it keeps you drowsy. With regular melatonin, your levels drop sooner which allows you to start waking up. Have you experimented with it at all?

Yes, I have had insomnia for 10 years so I have tried basically everything (plus I used to conduct sleep related research in my undergrad).

 

[anabolix]

Yes, I have had insomnia for 10 years so I have tried basically everything (plus I used to conduct sleep related research in my undergrad).

Hmm, and you don't notice a difference between the two? I've used melatonin alot over the last 20 years or so, and the extended release consistently buys me more sleep time. I haven't seen anything to suggest it might be the Ole placebo effect, but i guess anything is possible. Have you read anything to support it being useless, or seen anything during sleep studies to confirm this, or is it your opinion?

 

[Synapsin]

Hmm, and you don't notice a difference between the two? I've used melatonin alot over the last 20 years or so, and the extended release consistently buys me more sleep time. I haven't seen anything to suggest it might be the Ole placebo effect, but i guess anything is possible. Have you read anything to support it being useless, or seen anything during sleep studies to confirm this, or is it your opinion?

Might work for you but not generally supported by science. What I said earlier about endogenous surge of melatonin and timing is from science and my experiences in the lab There is literature to support this

 

[anabolix]

Might work for you but not generally supported by science. What I said earlier about endogenous surge of melatonin and timing is from science and my experiences in the lab There is literature to support this

Hmm..anecdotally, it works for me. Either it works for some people, or I'm experiencing a placebo effect(doubt).