Ma Labs Vicaine (unsponsored log)
- Thread starter Ricky10
- Start date
Ricky10
Well-known member
Never really thought of taking time off from the gym for 1 or 2 months...I think I would go insane. I need that release of endorphins and stress relief. I used to take 2 weeks off every 3-6 months or so to rest my CNS.....if you buy into that theory. Personally, I just always missed it during that time off, felt worse, and came back weaker.
In regard to stims, my biggest problem is the fact that I have worked 12hr night shifts for 7 years in a very fast paced environment that requires me to be physically and mentally alert the entire time. Not an easy task for me anyway. The notion of getting off stims is probably not a reality if I am being honest with myself. Reduction is my goal for now, and that is another reason why I have been experimenting with nootropics lately..
On my off days from work and if I don’t go to the gym and take a PWO, my stim consumption is not too bad. I will just usually have my morning combo as soon as I get out of bed, so that I can remember my name and where I am. After that, I might just have a Pyroxamine, or Oxymax XT in the afternoon...but sometimes nothing. All things considered, I think things could be worse..
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
For real, its funny how you kind of get to know people through the forum. I don't think cutting out either of these is going to happen for Ricky10
especially his morning cocktail of different stims lol
contact13
Member
I've been experimenting with different doses after receiving the product 2 weeks ago. Day 1 I took 1 pill late in the day after several meals and experienced mild stim effect with no "opiate" effect. Pretty much what I expected. Day 2 took 2 on an empty stomach and had a good rush of energy with mild "opiate" feeling which quickly disapated leaving me very edgy and moody. Day 3 I took 2 about an hour after I ate breakfast and felt a very even and mild "opiate" effect with energy for about 3 hours. Later that day I took 1 more and it brought the original feeling back for a couple hours! Pretty impressive. Day 4 I took 3 an hour after I ate and had a very strong "opiate" buzz for an hour and crashed very hard after. Day 5 I took off and definitely experienced some unpleasant, edgy axiety. This feeling without a doubt was mild "opiate" withdrawal. I took 750mg of Gaba and it took care of it. Day 7 the PM version arrived and I popped 2 around 4pm. That dosage kicked my ass! I got a very strong "opiate" reaction that caused me to puke. It was a similar reaction that happens on Morphine. I had trouble sleeping similar to Morphine as well. After a day off I took 1 am and 1 pm together and was shocked at the effect. It really did feel like I was on Oxycodone. I have been taking days off because this product absolutely will cause withdrawal symptoms if I take every day. Have been taking it mainly as a production supplement when I need to focus and get work done. The 1 am & 1 pm dose scheme really works well for focus and concentration.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
How do you like mixing the 2 versions? That would be more up my alley as at 3 caps reg vicaine the stims were too much. I think 1 with a couple caps of the pm would be nice.
contact13
Member
The best dosing protocol I've used so far is 1am & 2 pm about an hour or two after eating. I've noticed that at any dose the effect is greatly effected by food in my stomach. Are you experiencing any tolerance or withdrawal symptoms?
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Tolerance yes. Withdrawal no. I'm running a log and have been playing with the dose. So my bottle is about done and I'm going to take another break and see how it goes. I will log my experience for sure.
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
Awesome post and thank you for the great review, but I have to strongly disagree (in the most friendly way possible, of course) with one thing...and that is the withdrawal. It is pretty much impossible to experience withdrawal after 4 days of tianeptine use, especially when taking it only once per day at the lowish' dosages you were taking it at...literally impossible.
I mean, you only took 50 mg on Day #1 (clinical research has shown that 50 mg a day causes zero ZERO withdrawal even after a year of daily use in 100's of test subjects). On Day #2 you used 100 mg and on Day #3 and Day #4 you used 150 mg. That means you only used a grand total of 450 mg over 4 days and the compound was only active for a total of 12 hours. It is literally impossible to become physically dependent on tianeptine after 12 hours of exposure...even if that exposure took place all at once, let alone spread out over 96 hours. You were only exposed for 2-3 hours per day over a 4 day period! Withdrawal? No.
The edgy feeling was due to something else. It could have very easily been from the FLmodafinil or another compound, but in no way was it caused by tianeptine withdrawal. Not only does ALL the clinical research agree with me on this, but we have now seen DOZENS of customers publicly post that they took 2-3 caps per day...every day...for 4-6 weeks with ZERO withdrawal. It just isn't possible to become dependent on tianeptine after 12 hours of exposure over a 96 hour period.
Not even a single daily morphine injection will cause withdrawal (or it will be very mild) after 4 days of use and morphine stays active for about 75% longer than tianeptine. Not hydrocodone, oxycodone, or any other opioid with a similar half-life will cause withdrawal after 4 days of once daily use...and all of those opioids stay active about twice as long as tianeptine.
I am not trying to "defend" my product in saying any of this, as I have been very forthcoming about the potential dangers of tianeptine dependence in those who abuse the compound...and I was careful to put usage recommendations on the bottle that would prevent this. However, almost one year has passed since the product was released and we have seen a LOT of people use this product at dosages higher than you for MUCH longer periods of time...and NONE of them reported ANY withdrawal...at least not with the regular Vicaine. I don't know anyone who has used 3 caps per day of Vicaine PM for 4-6 weeks straight yet, but I suspect the feedback will be very similar.
GABA doesn't alleviate opioid withdrawal. It works on the GABA receptor to reduce anxiety, so if you were on edge, any gabaergic compound would have been helpful. Now, opioid withdrawal can cause anxiety, but in this case any anxiety (edgy feeling) you might have had is MUCH more likely to have been caused by FLmodafinil, as it is well known to cause that side effect in a small percentage of users. FLmodafinil It acts very much like Adderall and other stims, so if that edgy feeling was caused by the product, it was likely caused by that, not tianeptine. To suggest otherwise contradicts not only clinical research, but virtually ALL the anecdotal evidence that has been compiled on tianeptine in the general population over the last 10 years.
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
No one really knows. I suspect it won't be around for too much longer.
contact13
Member
Thanks you for response. Since I cut back to 1 am with the pm mixed in I have not experienced the same sides. So it very well may have been the stims. I have experienced opiate withdrawal before and it always starts with that edgy feeling so I may have just freaked myself out. I am taking days off non the less. Great product. I have to say that it is definitely one of the more effective products I've ever used. It pretty much does exactly what it says it does. That's pretty rare.
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
If you read his next post, he acknowledges that he likely just confused stim-induced anxiety for withdrawal. It is easy to confuse the two...because withdrawal often does start out that way.
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
I don't fault you for your initial post at all. It is EASY to confuse the two...because opioid withdrawal often DOES start that way...so I understand why you thought that. Thank you very much for the compliments on the product.
Good job on taking days off. Continue doing so, as that is the ONLY way for the product to retain its effectiveness.
Jstrong20
Well-known member
Yeah I'm not worried about any type of withdrawal Anyway. Lol I use it as long as it's available. I need to grab another bottle but when I have it I average once to twice a week. The performance benefits is what I mainley use it for. Makes the hardest jobs seem easy and the day goes by really fast.
bigbeaph
Well-known member
I just ordered my first bottle of Vicaine yesterday! I actually meant to order the PM version but must have been overly excited and hit the button on the AM version instead. I wanted to try both anyway....You seem to be very much against taking kratom alongside the Vicaine. Coming from someone that takes small doses of Kratom 2-3 times per day to deal with back pain (post 5 lumbar fusion sx) I really worry about skipping my normal small Kratom dose as sometimes this can leave me in quite a bit of pain until I seem to get a good amount in my system. Is it possible that the Vicaine would replace what the kratom does for my pain? Do you expect negative effects if taken together or just don't think you will get the most out of the Vicaine if taken together? Surely someone out there has tried this already....
Ricky10
Well-known member
Though I have recent experience supplementing with kratom, I don’t use that or Vicaine for the opioid/pain relief benefits, and I don’t have any chronic pain. I will say that I have had nice experiences combining green Maeng Da with Vicaine.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Annnnnndddd he's back from the dead.
Ricky10
Well-known member
Yes, it very nice to be back! Just had some technical issues with my account...
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Maybe your account was intermittent fasting??
bigbeaph
Well-known member
I appreciate it brother! It appears that it should have some real genuine pain killing effects but I can't find much in the way of experience using it for that reason.
Ricky10
Well-known member
Update: I have still been averaging 2 capsules per day (in split dosages) alongside my stims/fatburners, which I seem to be taking less of nowadays. Vicaine still successfully raises my mood and decreases my anxiety. I have taken a few days off here and there, with no adverse affects. This truly is a great product to lift your sprits!
Interestingly, I was concerned about Vicaine (and specifically tianeptine) having the ability to reduce testosterone levels in the way that Rx opioids are infamous for, as well as chronic users of Kratom. I asked Mike what he had to say about the subject and he had the following to report:
When tianeptine was originally in clinical trials (50 years ago), test subjects had full hormonal profiles conducted both before and after use (1 year of daily use), along with a bunch of other tests. Neither T levels, estrogen, or anything else was affected. Now, these test subjects were only using 37.5-75 mg/day, but that is right in the range of what capsule of Vicaine supplies (50 mg). Even if someone uses the full 3 cap dosage, I don't see it causing any issues when limiting use to 4-5 days per week...and even if they take the full dose every day, I doubt it will cause enough of a reduction to be considered significant.
This was very encouraging to me, and it gave me peace of mind about my continued use of the product..
Interestingly, I was concerned about Vicaine (and specifically tianeptine) having the ability to reduce testosterone levels in the way that Rx opioids are infamous for, as well as chronic users of Kratom. I asked Mike what he had to say about the subject and he had the following to report:
When tianeptine was originally in clinical trials (50 years ago), test subjects had full hormonal profiles conducted both before and after use (1 year of daily use), along with a bunch of other tests. Neither T levels, estrogen, or anything else was affected. Now, these test subjects were only using 37.5-75 mg/day, but that is right in the range of what capsule of Vicaine supplies (50 mg). Even if someone uses the full 3 cap dosage, I don't see it causing any issues when limiting use to 4-5 days per week...and even if they take the full dose every day, I doubt it will cause enough of a reduction to be considered significant.
This was very encouraging to me, and it gave me peace of mind about my continued use of the product..
Ricky10
Well-known member
Mike Arnold
I see that Vicaine is currently out of stock...any idea when it might be back in stock?
I see that Vicaine is currently out of stock...any idea when it might be back in stock?
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
Soon...1-2 weeks.
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
Price was raised also
I know tianeptine is hard to source
We absolutely had too...or we would have had to stop selling it. There are a few reasons why a price increase was mandatory. One, the price of tianeptine has gone up (a lot) worldwide due to an international shortage. Two, the price of Flmodafinil has gone up just because the labs that make it want more money. Three, the only way we were able to take credit cards was to get a high-risk merchant account...and the rates are literally 500% HIGHER than normal merchant accounts. The relatively small $5 price increase of Vicaine doesn't even come close to covering the money we have lost...and even before all this, our profit margins were already low. That's why we would have had to stop selling it if we didn't increase it at least a little bit.
Ricky10
Well-known member
Price was raised also
I know tianeptine is hard to source
I noticed the price increase as well :ugh:
Glad to hear it will still be available though nonetheless...
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Well you still have my business brother. I don't mind paying a little bit more when the quality is there
jarrellt67
Well-known member
Not to mention it's still a lot cheaper than buying the ingredients separately (I've checked). Tianeptine sodium from a reliable source is currently about $1 for 50 mg (they're selling 1 gram containers for about $20)...that's about the cost of one capsule of vicaine which contains 50 mg of tianeptine sodium plus many other goodies.
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
Yep. Few people know the prices of the ingredients in the products they purchase. Vicaine is extremely expensive to produce. It costs more to make than many supps sell for! Vicaine's product cost is about 400-600% greater than the average product out there today...not to mention nothing like Vicaine is available anywhere else. I almost stopped selling it because I wasn't sure if it was worth it (from a profit standpoint).
Ricky10
Well-known member
Wow...that’s crazy??!! :shocked:
jarrellt67
Well-known member
I'm assuming you split the doses because you found it provides better all day coverage than just taking two capsules in the morning? If so, do you find effects from the second dose last longer than the first (since there may be some overlap due to the half-lives) or is the duration of effects roughly the same (or maybe even less) as the one you take in the morning?
Ricky10
Well-known member
Yes, I prefer to split my dose (usually 1 pill twice a day) for better coverage so that I can enjoy the benefits for the greater part of my day. At this point, I mainly just get a mood lift and a reduction in anxiety as opposed to a stim affect. In this sense, it is kind of harder to tell the variance in the half-life with subsequent dosing. Although Tianeptine has a short half-life, I tend to think there must be some cumulative affects when dosing within the same day which would make the second dose more notable. I will try to be more in tune to this in future...
jarrellt67
Well-known member
The mood lift and reduction and anxiety are why I'm taking it anyway. So, lack of stim affect is fine. Thank you for the description. I'll probably give a second/afternoon dose a try (instead of my afternoon kratom dose).
ELROCK
Well-known member
If I do this it feels pretty much the same for me. The second dose doesn’t seem more pronounced or any less effective.
jarrellt67
Well-known member
Cool. That's what I was hoping (at least as effective). Thanks!
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
In my experience 8 hrs seems to be the window for effectiveness (tianeptine) in between with 12 being most ideal for not seeing any diminished strength in effects. I do take higher doses however. It is fast in and fast out because of the sodium being means of transport.
jarrellt67
Well-known member
I wonder if a tianeptine sulfate booster in the afternoon (instead of a second vicaine) would also be effective since things like the flmodafinil are still effective then due to the long half-life.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
I would love to hear your opinion/experience and comparison on that. You have the sulfate as well correct?
jarrellt67
Well-known member
Yep. Have a few bottles of sulfate. I'll give it a try sometime soon. Today I'll probably just take a second vicaine since I'm having trouble staying awake and need the stims.
Mike Arnold
Board Sponsor
There are two reasons why I didn't include any sulfate in Vicaine. One, it is much less effective, per mg, when compared to regular tianeptine sodium and two, it is more expensive as well.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
The sulfate is more expensive than the sodium? Everything I've priced has been the opposite ( then again I'm not talking about bulk). I do agree and think for your products the sodium is the better choice.