M-Sten for 5 weeks

[2manyprojects]

Nearing the end of my 4th week on vicious labs m-Sten.
First and second week at 20mgs
3rd and 4th week at 30mgs
75mgs of vicious lags 3ad all 4 weeks.
I’m having an easy time with sides almost not existent.
Thinking of going 5 weeks any thoughts?

 

[Potbelly]

Have gone 8 weeks but usually 6

 

[StarScream66]

Make sure you're taking some kind of cycle support so your liver, kidneys, blood pressure, and all that is in good working order. Msten is a methylated compound, so running it for long periods can be taxing on your body, even if you're not 'feeling' anything.

 

[MadStax]

Make sure you're taking some kind of cycle support so your liver, kidneys, blood pressure, and all that is in good working order. Msten is a methylated compound, so running it for long periods can be taxing on your body, even if you're not 'feeling' anything.

I've yet to see any solid evidence that any of the "cycle support" or "liver protection" supplements actually work. The only science based evidence I've seen is that NAC may help defend against heavy use of Tylenol, though I believe the studies only looked at using it after poisoning by overdose. I don't think any of us are or should be taking Tylenol on cycle, so I'm definitely not sold on that.

 

[Renew1]

Make sure you're taking some kind of cycle support so your liver, kidneys, blood pressure, and all that is in good working order. Msten is a methylated compound, so running it for long periods can be taxing on your body, even if you're not 'feeling' anything.

Agreed.

 

[2manyprojects]

Make sure you're taking some kind of cycle support so your liver, kidneys, blood pressure, and all that is in good working order. Msten is a methylated compound, so running it for long periods can be taxing on your body, even if you're not 'feeling' anything.

Am using cel cycle Assist and tudca

 

[mawalega]

I've yet to see any solid evidence that any of the "cycle support" or "liver protection" supplements actually work. The only science based evidence I've seen is that NAC may help defend against heavy use of Tylenol, though I believe the studies only looked at using it after poisoning by overdose. I don't think any of us are or should be taking Tylenol on cycle, so I'm definitely not sold on that.

You haven't heard or seen studies on tudca? They're plentiful and promising.

 

[MadStax]

You haven't heard or seen studies on tudca? They're plentiful and promising.

Something reviewed and published in a medical journal? I've seen a lot of conjecture and theory. Nothing concrete.

 

[mawalega]

Heterozygous Inactivation of the Nuclear Receptor PXR/NR1I2 in a Patient With Anabolic Steroid-Induced Intrahepatic Cholestasis

The incidence of liver damage due to steroid consumption is increasing due to the omnipresence of the idealized body image and the widespread availability of drugs via the Internet. The genetic factors underlying individual susceptibility are not presently ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not at my computer skimmed this but have other things I've read at home

 

[nnnnnn]

Something reviewed and published in a medical journal? I've seen a lot of conjecture and theory. Nothing concrete.

There's plenty. Just search on research gate. Very easy

Something reviewed and published in a medical journal? I've seen a lot of conjecture and theory. Nothing concrete.

Seriously this kind of talk is dangerous. The reason being is that someone can take this literally who is uninformed but it's the internet so I guess broscience is at play. Here's a peer reviewed research article for you. I'm in a M.S program at a University so I used my University research database to locate it for you.

Wimmer, R., Hohenester, S., Pusl, T., Denk, G. U., Rust, C., & Beuers, U. (2008). Tauroursodeoxycholic acid exerts anticholestatic effects by a cooperative cPKC[alpha]-/PKA-dependent mechanism in rat liver.

Conclusion of the study:
Taurolithocholic acid (TLCA) is the most potent cholestatic agent among the major human bile acids 23 and has recently been shown to exert its cholestatic action at the hepatocyte level by phosphatidylinositol-3-kinase, and putatively nPKC[epsilon]-dependent mechanisms in isolated perfused rat livers (IPRLs) and isolated rat hepatocyte couplets

RESULTS
Bile flow
TLCA (10 μmol/l) reduced bile flow in isolated perfused rat livers (IPRLs) to 14% of controls ( figs 1A,B and 2A ). TUDCA (25 μmol/l) reversed TLCA-induced inhibition of bile flow to 173% of controls. The nonselective PKC inhibitor staurosporine (10 nmol/l), the selective cPKC inhibitor Gö6976 (100 nmol/l), and the selective PKA inhibitor H89 (100 nmol/l) did not significantly affect bile flow in either control livers or in livers treated with TLCA+TUDCA ( figs 1A,B and 2A ). In contrast, when administered concomitantly, staurosporine+H89 as well as Gö6976+H89 induced a significant reduction of bile flow in livers treated with TLCA+TUDCA by 48% (p<0.01) and 36% (p<0.05), respectively, but again, did not affect bile flow in controls or livers treated with TUDCA only ( figs 1A-C and 2A ).

 

[MadStax]

Heterozygous Inactivation of the Nuclear Receptor PXR/NR1I2 in a Patient With Anabolic Steroid-Induced Intrahepatic Cholestasis

The incidence of liver damage due to steroid consumption is increasing due to the omnipresence of the idealized body image and the widespread availability of drugs via the Internet. The genetic factors underlying individual susceptibility are not presently ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not at my computer skimmed this but have other things I've read at home

This is excellent! Thanks a bunch for this!

 

[mawalega]

And sorry for highjack op. Might want to check a few reviews and see where gains started to fall off. Longer isn't always worth it if side start to become prevalent... I'm currently half ass looking for this same type of info putting together my msten run in about 2+months.

 

[StarScream66]

This is in non-alcoholic liver disease, while not exactly applicable, it could be argued that this type of liver disease is an undiagnosed epidemic.

N-Acetylcysteine Improves Liver Function in Patients with Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
Manouchehr Khoshbaten, Akbar Aliasgarzadeh, [...], and Farzad Najafipoor

Additional article information

Abstract
Background and Aims
Non-alcoholic fatty liver change is a common disease of the liver in which oxidative stress plays a basic role. Studies are largely focused on protecting the liver by means of anti-oxidative material. The aim of this study is to evaluate the role of N- acetylcysteine in the process of liver injury.
Methods
Thirty patients with non-alcoholic fatty liver steatosis were randomly selected to receive either N-acetylcysteine or vitamin C. Liver function tests (alanine aminotransfrase, aspartate aminotransfrase and alkaline phosphatase) were measured as well as the grade of steatosis, the pattern of its echogenicity, the span of the liver and the spleen and the portal vein diameter before the intervention. Patients were followed up using the same method of evaluation repeated in the first, second and third months.
Results
The mean age (SD) was 40.1(12.4) in patients receiving NAC and 46(10.4) years in patients receiving vitamin C (P = 0.137). NAC resulted in a significant decrease of serum alanine aminotransfrase after three months, compared to vitamin C. This effect was independent of the grade of steatosis in the initial diagnosis. NAC was able to significantly decrease the span of the spleen.
Conclusions
N-acetylcysteine can improve liver function in patients with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. Better results may be achievable in a longer follow up.

N-Acetylcysteine Improves Liver Function in Patients with Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease

Non-alcoholic fatty liver change is a common disease of the liver in which oxidative stress plays a basic role. Studies are largely focused on protecting the liver by means of anti-oxidative material. The aim of this study is to evaluate the role of N- ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In addition to its ability to replenish hepatic stores of glutathione, NAC has also been shown to have anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, inotropic, and vasodilating effects which improve microcirculatory blood flow and oxygen delivery to vital organs [10,11]. In a prospective study published in Hepatology in 2009, 47 patients with non-acetaminophen induced acute liver failure were treated with oral NAC at a dose of 140 mg/kg, followed by 70 mg/kg, for a total of 17 doses, 4 hours apart and within 6 hours of admission. Compared to historical controls, the patients who received oral NAC had a slight, though significantly reduced overall mortality compared to those who did not receive NAC (53.2% versus 72.7%, p=0.05) [12]. The study is intrinsically flawed by use of historical controls who were not necessarily treated at the same time point as the study subjects.

Can N-Acetylcysteine be Used in Non-Acetaminophen Induced Acute Liver Failure? – Clinical Correlations

www.clinicalcorrelations.org

Unfortunately, there don't appear to be any studies showing NAC "improves" liver health, but there are many studies showing it can help benefit patient from drug induced liver damage. Because scientists rarely look at supplements in the form of "improving liver health" we have to go with anecdotal reports of many users who take NAC and report back blood results in the form of their livers functioning normally, are within a normal range factor to show no damage is taking place.

Acetylcysteine serves as a prodrug to L-cysteine.

L-cysteine is a precursor to the biologic antioxidant glutathione. Hence administration of acetylcysteine replenishes glutathione stores.

Glutathione plays a key role in the liver in detoxification reactions and in regulating the thiol-disulfide status of the cell. Glutathione synthesis is regulated mainly by the availability of precursor cysteine and the concentration of glutathione itself which feeds back to regulate its own synthesis.

The importance and regulation of hepatic glutathione.

Glutathione plays a key role in the liver in detoxification reactions and in regulating the thiol-disulfide status of the cell. Glutathione synthesis is regulated mainly by the availability of precursor cysteine and the concentration of glutathione itself ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The reasoning we use behind saying NAC is beneficial because it is used in the ER as an antidote to APAP overdose is simply that shows how potent it is at being able to restore liver function at a time of crisis. Since NAC clearly possesses the ability to restore the liver function in this emergency scenario, reason dictates that can be beneficial to restoring Glutathione levels in the liver and thus keeping it working at maximum capacity. You do also get Glutathione from whey protein, and most of it supplement with that as well, but most of it appears to be absorbed by the gut and utilized there. NAC, OTOH, being a prodrug, introduces Glutathione directly into the liver and helps keep it healthy.

Although there are no studies demonstrating this effect, this could potentially be due to the fact that NAC is a non-patentable drug and there is no financial incentive for it to be studied for it's benefits on liver health. Still, I consider NAC a frontline ancillary in methylated AAS usage, as I mentioned, due to the countless blood results of AAS users who have taken it and reported beneficial effects. Those are anecdotal reports, but that's the best we're going to do for now.

 

[StarScream66]

I've yet to see any solid evidence that any of the "cycle support" or "liver protection" supplements actually work. The only science based evidence I've seen is that NAC may help defend against heavy use of Tylenol, though I believe the studies only looked at using it after poisoning by overdose. I don't think any of us are or should be taking Tylenol on cycle, so I'm definitely not sold on that.

The cycle support supplement generally contain a range of ingredients that do a number of things, they contain things like hawthorne berry which reduces blood pressure, celery seed extract which can do the same thing as is beneficial for cardiovascular health, milk thistle (which also increases Glutathione), grape seed extract which acts as an anti-oxidant and anti-estrogen, and hodgepodge of other ingredients that can benefit rising LDL cholesterol levels, and generally trying to reduce the negative effects of methylated steroids in the human body. If one wanted, they could supplement with these ingredients individually and get a higher dose, but generally the doses found in these cycle support supplements is sufficient.

But, we're working with dietary supplement here, which can only contain vitamins, minerals, herbs and amino acids. It's no replacement for seeing a doctor and getting regular blood tests to determine if there is an actual problem going on and treating it.

 

[BCseacow83]

Something reviewed and published in a medical journal? I've seen a lot of conjecture and theory. Nothing concrete.

If you are waiting for a tudca and 17aa steroid study I wouldn't hold your breath. Run your cycle without and get labs. Then same with support. That is the closest to a study you are going to find.

 

[MadStax]

If you are waiting for a tudca and 17aa steroid study I wouldn't hold your breath. Run your cycle without and get labs. Then same with support. That is the closest to a study you are going to find.

I'm good, thanks. TUDCA is cheap enough. I'm just not a fan of throwing supps and drugs at problems without solid evidence that they actually help or that the problem actually exists. I'm not at all suggesting people not take it or cycle support. I think the evidence presented makes a strong case for TUDCA.

 

[Renew1]

I'm good, thanks. TUDCA is cheap enough. I'm just not a fan of throwing supps and drugs at problems without solid evidence that they actually help or that the problem actually exists. I'm not at all suggesting people not take it or cycle support. I think the evidence presented makes a strong case for TUDCA.

.... And if you dig into the Individual ingredients of the multi cycle support formulas, you'll find a lot of good info and feedback from those as well.

 

[MadStax]

.... And if you dig into the Individual ingredients of the multi cycle support formulas, you'll find a lot of good info and feedback from those as well.

I dug a fair bit into NAC and couldn't find anything that looked promising. The other herbal compounds I've not looked at, but it seemed like NAC was the workhorse?

 

[Renew1]

I dug a fair bit into NAC and couldn't find anything that looked promising. The other herbal compounds I've not looked at, but it seemed like NAC was the workhorse?

No, actually the different ingredients in cycle support (multi) products are there for Different reasons.

 

[mawalega]

Nac is good for the liver and great for it's antioxidant/free radical properties iirc

 

[mawalega]

Astragalus (kidney), coQ10 (heart), ashwaganda (anti cort/anixety), nattokinase (cardio sys), nac, tudca, taurine, insitol, agmatine, orange triad... My little stack right now.... I'd like to add more but it would be too many pills lol.

 

[Rad83]

Whats a good dose of dat-dere Astragalus?

 

[Jstrong20]

Yeah you can run it five easy. I usually run everything six. Not like there is some magic wall at four weeks. Lol

 

[mawalega]

Whats a good dose of dat-dere Astragalus?

Others truthfully prob more versed in this so take that for what it is.

I use NOW astragalus extract atm. I believe astragalus iv is the extract most important and its rec in like teen mgs (didn't look at studies, only examine for dose). It was expensivish but NOW was cheap so I found this below and ran with it since I never really take things for direct kidney health, but I haven't looked that deep into the plant yet TBH.

"APS is the most important natural active component in A. membranaceus and exerts multiple pharmacological effects" (aps is astragalus poly sacc and now's brand is 70% standardized)

A Review of the Pharmacological Action of Astragalus Polysaccharide

.

 

[Nac]

Astragalus doses are all over the map. It would seem a minimum of 2-4gm per day. Buy bulk powder if you can, way cheaper. From the studies Ive looked at 4gm is a good "middle ground".