Low test levels 6 month after PCT

PhoenixGamer

Member
Awards
0
To Bolex and rtmilburn, you NEVER take an AI for PCT. You only take a SERM.
Endos and most MDs in general don't know enough when it comes to the HPTA and its recovery.
Clomid is worthless because of the side effects it causes. Nolva works, but dosing needs to be low to prevent side effects. High doses will cause side effects of excessive low estrogenic activity. More is not better. 10mg EOD x30 days is sufficient to restart LH production without causing side effects that higher doses would. Fareston is very similar to Nolva, but is more potent. Fareston works for me at 1/4 tab (15mg) once every 4 days. My natural test levels are recovered by the second dose (I tested myself). Any higher than this and I get the same side effects of very low estrogen levels. Remember, these are breast cancer drugs meant for women. Men DO NOT need anywhere near the same dosages as women for natural test recovery purposes.
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Long term clomid therapy. If your cycle was 12 weeks, why shouldn't your PCT?

Clomid: 12.5mg ED or 25mg EOD

More is not better. These are the doses used in studies. There's a point of diminishing returns but increased side effects.

Tadalifil: 5mg ED or 10mg EOD.

Those are the prescribed doses for long term use. There is also evidence that PDE-5 inhibitors increase testosterone levels through increased LH. While it will help erection quality without being overwhelming, it will not increase libido if that is a problem.

Sustain Alpha: This was the biggest part of my recovery after abuse of orals at a young age. Increased Libido, erection quality, Increased well-being, increased LH, and a light decrease in estrogen(E2) from *inhibiting aromitase.

LJ100: one of the few ingredients to have an impressive amount of studies behind. LJ100 is a patented ingredient, and has a long history of use on body building forums. Could probably go back 15-20 years and see its positive use. 100mg is an effective dose but it seems more is better. Comes down to what you can afford.


* Clomid blocks E2 at specific receptor sites, there for increasing the amount E2 circulating in your blood stream. This is why rebound gyno happens upon cessation of clomid, as that circulating E2 rushes back to those receptor sites. An aromitasr inhibitor will help eliminate the extra estrogen, and should be continued after stopping clomid and slowly tapered down in dosage.
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Also for future reference. HCG should be run through an entire cycle starting at week one and continued as the test esters clear your body. The real goal of HCG is to maintain the testes sensitivity to LH signals. Fair warning though, HCG does cause a slight increase in E2. Always worth keeping an eye on.

EDIT: I can't believe the bro science in here.

😂🤣😂🤣 Someone suggested two serms. They achieve the same goal through the same mechanism. It's redundant and no wonder y'all complain about sides.

And Letro? Let's crush the kids E2 as if estrogen doesn't play any part in in the homeostasis of Male hormones. This will just crush his libido and erection quality further. Aromitase inhibitors are not a first line PCT product and should always/only be used in conjunction with a serm, at the lowest dose possible.

Lastly: One google search will return dozens of studies on succesful clomid use for restoring HPTA function.
 
Last edited:

Bolex

New member
Awards
0
Long term clomid therapy. If your cycle was 12 weeks, why shouldn't your PCT?

Clomid: 12.5mg ED or 25mg EOD

More is not better. These are the doses used in studies. There's a point of diminishing returns but increased side effects.

Tadalifil: 5mg ED or 10mg EOD.

Those are the prescribed doses for long term use. There is also evidence that PDE-5 inhibitors increase testosterone levels through increased LH. While it will help erection quality without being overwhelming, it will not increase libido if that is a problem.

Sustain Alpha: This was the biggest part of my recovery after abuse of orals at a young age. Increased Libido, erection quality, Increased well-being, increased LH, and a light decrease in estrogen(E2) from *inhibiting aromitase.

LJ100: one of the few ingredients to have an impressive amount of studies behind. LJ100 is a patented ingredient, and has a long history of use on body building forums. Could probably go back 15-20 years and see its positive use. 100mg is an effective dose but it seems more is better. Comes down to what you can afford.


* Clomid blocks E2 at specific receptor sites, there for increasing the amount E2 circulating in your blood stream. This is why rebound gyno happens upon cessation of clomid, as that circulating E2 rushes back to those receptor sites. An aromitasr inhibitor will help eliminate the extra estrogen, and should be continued after stopping clomid and slowly tapered down in dosage.
Yes I know I also think the endo is pushing doses a bit high for what we see recommended here at the forum and for a long period of time...

However, for treatment in men with low fertility or type 1 or 2 hypogonadism and AAS induced hypogonadism treatment range looks to be 3-6 month if I remember correctly and clomid dosage 50-400mg

I have another appointment today this time with my urologist so I will hear what he purposes for treatment and report back here at the forum.
 

Bolex

New member
Awards
0
Long term clomid therapy. If your cycle was 12 weeks, why shouldn't your PCT?

Clomid: 12.5mg ED or 25mg EOD

More is not better. These are the doses used in studies. There's a point of diminishing returns but increased side effects.

Tadalifil: 5mg ED or 10mg EOD.

Those are the prescribed doses for long term use. There is also evidence that PDE-5 inhibitors increase testosterone levels through increased LH. While it will help erection quality without being overwhelming, it will not increase libido if that is a problem.

Sustain Alpha: This was the biggest part of my recovery after abuse of orals at a young age. Increased Libido, erection quality, Increased well-being, increased LH, and a light decrease in estrogen(E2) from *inhibiting aromitase.

LJ100: one of the few ingredients to have an impressive amount of studies behind. LJ100 is a patented ingredient, and has a long history of use on body building forums. Could probably go back 15-20 years and see its positive use. 100mg is an effective dose but it seems more is better. Comes down to what you can afford.


* Clomid blocks E2 at specific receptor sites, there for increasing the amount E2 circulating in your blood stream. This is why rebound gyno happens upon cessation of clomid, as that circulating E2 rushes back to those receptor sites. An aromitasr inhibitor will help eliminate the extra estrogen, and should be continued after stopping clomid and slowly tapered down in dosage.
Yes I know I also think the endo is pushing doses a bit high for what we see recommended here at the forum and for a long period of time...

However, for treatment in men with low fertility or type 1 or 2 hypogonadism and AAS induced hypogonadism treatment range looks to be 3-6 month if I remember correctly and clomid dosage 50-400mg

I have another appointment today this time with my urologist so I will hear what he purposes for treatment and report back here at the forum.
 

PhoenixGamer

Member
Awards
0
Long term clomid therapy. If your cycle was 12 weeks, why shouldn't your PCT?

Clomid: 12.5mg ED or 25mg EOD

* Clomid blocks E2 at specific receptor sites, there for increasing the amount E2 circulating in your blood stream. This is why rebound gyno happens upon cessation of clomid, as that circulating E2 rushes back to those receptor sites. An aromitasr inhibitor will help eliminate the extra estrogen, and should be continued after stopping clomid and slowly tapered down in dosage.
CLOMID IS ESTROGENIC. It can cause estrogenic side effects in any doses, even 12.5mg EOD. It happened to me within 2 days of starting Rx clomid. Garbage drug that does not belong in a man's body, PERIOD.
You do not combine an AI with a SERM. The Estradiol level on a blood test is FALSE while on a SERM. The half life is long and so will continue to be false for several weeks even after dc'ing the Clomid.
 

PhoenixGamer

Member
Awards
0
Yes I know I also think the endo is pushing doses a bit high for what we see recommended here at the forum and for a long period of time...

However, for treatment in men with low fertility or type 1 or 2 hypogonadism and AAS induced hypogonadism treatment range looks to be 3-6 month if I remember correctly and clomid dosage 50-400mg

I have another appointment today this time with my urologist so I will hear what he purposes for treatment and report back here at the forum.
Was nice knowing you. You'll off yourself with the tremendous suicidal depression clomiphene will give you. You'll grow some magnificent man boobs as a consolation prize though.
 

Bolex

New member
Awards
0
Yes I know I also think the endo is pushing doses a bit high for what we see recommended here at the forum and for a long period of time...

However, for treatment in men with low fertility or type 1 or 2 hypogonadism and AAS induced hypogonadism treatment range looks to be 3-6 month if I remember correctly and clomid dosage 50-400mg

I have another appointment today this time with my urologist so I will hear what he purposes for treatment and report back here at the forum.
Just got out of the urologist office...
All he said was your PSA is fine...
I asked him about the low test values that are now about half of what I used to have. I was 300 total test (range 70 - 850 ) in 2017 and 9.2 free test (range 8.7 - 54.7) this was before doing any pro-hormones or AAS.
He said that we are unique individuals and those numbers don't mean nothing to him you can feel Ok with 200 total test and somewone else can feel like crap...
Anyway I told him I had seen an endocronologist, and he asked me: he gave you nothing right?
My answer: no he gave me clomid 6 boxes of 20 pills 50mg a day and told me to take One a day...
He replied oh OK thats a Serm ok it Will speed your recovery that might take as long as 1,5 years...
 

Bolex

New member
Awards
0
Yes I know I also think the endo is pushing doses a bit high for what we see recommended here at the forum and for a long period of time...

However, for treatment in men with low fertility or type 1 or 2 hypogonadism and AAS induced hypogonadism treatment range looks to be 3-6 month if I remember correctly and clomid dosage 50-400mg

I have another appointment today this time with my urologist so I will hear what he purposes for treatment and report back here at the forum.
Just got out of the urologist office...
All he said was your PSA is fine...
I asked him about the low test values that are now about half of what I used to have. I was 300 total test (range 70 - 850 ) in 2017 and 9.2 free test (range 8.7 - 54.7) this was before doing any pro-hormones or AAS.
He said that we are unique individuals and those numbers don't mean nothing to him you can feel Ok with 200 total test and somewone else can feel like crap...
Anyway I told him I had seen an endocronologist, and he asked me: he gave you nothing right?
My answer: no he gave me clomid 6 boxes of 20 pills 50mg a day and told me to take One a day...
He replied oh OK thats a Serm ok it Will speed your recovery that might take as long as 1,5 years...
 

Bolex

New member
Awards
0
Yes I know I also think the endo is pushing doses a bit high for what we see recommended here at the forum and for a long period of time...

However, for treatment in men with low fertility or type 1 or 2 hypogonadism and AAS induced hypogonadism treatment range looks to be 3-6 month if I remember correctly and clomid dosage 50-400mg

I have another appointment today this time with my urologist so I will hear what he purposes for treatment and report back here at the forum.
Just got out of the urologist office...
All he said was your PSA is fine...
I asked him about the low test values that are now about half of what I used to have. I was 300 total test (range 70 - 850 ) in 2017 and 9.2 free test (range 8.7 - 54.7) this was before doing any pro-hormones or AAS.
He said that we are unique individuals and those numbers don't mean nothing to him you can feel Ok with 200 total test and somewone else can feel like crap...
Anyway I told him I had seen an endocronologist, and he asked me: he gave you nothing right?
My answer: no he gave me clomid 6 boxes of 20 pills 50mg a day and told me to take One a day...
He replied oh OK thats a Serm ok it Will speed your recovery that might take as long as 1,5 years...
 
Smont

Smont

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
To Bolex and rtmilburn, you NEVER take an AI for PCT. You only take a SERM.
Endos and most MDs in general don't know enough when it comes to the HPTA and its recovery.
Clomid is worthless because of the side effects it causes. Nolva works, but dosing needs to be low to prevent side effects. High doses will cause side effects of excessive low estrogenic activity. More is not better. 10mg EOD x30 days is sufficient to restart LH production without causing side effects that higher doses would. Fareston is very similar to Nolva, but is more potent. Fareston works for me at 1/4 tab (15mg) once every 4 days. My natural test levels are recovered by the second dose (I tested myself). Any higher than this and I get the same side effects of very low estrogen levels. Remember, these are breast cancer drugs meant for women. Men DO NOT need anywhere near the same dosages as women for natural test recovery purposes.
While generally that is what everyone is told, i know many guys that blast hcg post cycle and take exemestane for a month after that. Brings them back to the high normal range. I'm not advocating it, I've never done it myself. I used to use hcg and nolva or clomid. Or sometimes skip the hcg. I always recovered to high normal that way.

I guess I'm saying there's more then one way to skin this cat, and tho I don't agree with the hcg/ai combo, I can't argue with bloodwork that shows test levels over 900
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
CLOMID IS ESTROGENIC. It can cause estrogenic side effects in any doses, even 12.5mg EOD. It happened to me within 2 days of starting Rx clomid. Garbage drug that does not belong in a man's body, PERIOD.
You do not combine an AI with a SERM. The Estradiol level on a blood test is FALSE while on a SERM. The half life is long and so will continue to be false for several weeks even after dc'ing the Clomid.
You're a fuckin idiot. Back up anything you are saying with evidence other than "this is how I felt."

OP stay far away from this guys advice and negativeattitude. .
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Clomid will not give you gyno. Here's a quick study using 25mg of clomid.
"CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism"
 
Last edited:
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
@PhoenixGamer Show me one study where clomid induced gynecomastia that isn't post use/after cessation of clomid therapy.

Here's a quick google search to get you started.

And try not to pass over the studies showing clomid use in treating preexisting gyno.
 
NoAddedHmones

NoAddedHmones

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
*grabs popcorn and awaits a response centred around “gut dysbiosis”
 

PhoenixGamer

Member
Awards
0
Pearls to swine. It's alright.

I agree 100%. You may indeed see a beautiful Test/Estrogen ratio while on it. But, depending on the user's estrogen receptors' response to the Zuclomiphene isomer, they may suffer the estrogenic side effects.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
5
  • Best Answer
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
Long term clomid therapy. If your cycle was 12 weeks, why shouldn't your PCT?

Clomid: 12.5mg ED or 25mg EOD

More is not better. These are the doses used in studies. There's a point of diminishing returns but increased side effects.

Tadalifil: 5mg ED or 10mg EOD.

Those are the prescribed doses for long term use. There is also evidence that PDE-5 inhibitors increase testosterone levels through increased LH. While it will help erection quality without being overwhelming, it will not increase libido if that is a problem.

Sustain Alpha: This was the biggest part of my recovery after abuse of orals at a young age. Increased Libido, erection quality, Increased well-being, increased LH, and a light decrease in estrogen(E2) from *inhibiting aromitase.

LJ100: one of the few ingredients to have an impressive amount of studies behind. LJ100 is a patented ingredient, and has a long history of use on body building forums. Could probably go back 15-20 years and see its positive use. 100mg is an effective dose but it seems more is better. Comes down to what you can afford.


* Clomid blocks E2 at specific receptor sites, there for increasing the amount E2 circulating in your blood stream. This is why rebound gyno happens upon cessation of clomid, as that circulating E2 rushes back to those receptor sites. An aromitasr inhibitor will help eliminate the extra estrogen, and should be continued after stopping clomid and slowly tapered down in dosage.
clomid and sustain alpha paired really well for me on my last pct.
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Pearls to swine. It's alright.

I agree 100%. You may indeed see a beautiful Test/Estrogen ratio while on it. But, depending on the user's estrogen receptors' response to the Zuclomiphene isomer, they may suffer the estrogenic side effects.
All serms work as E2 receptor against and antagonists. It's part of their MOA. By all means pick a different serm if you're afraid of Zuclomiphene, but don't go around spreading misinformation a d sensationalism. Clomid is still not going to cause gyno.

And if one was suffering from increased estrogenic side effects, wouldn't that warrant the use of an AI? Or even better: zuclomiphene does accumulate in the body, giving to clomids ability to elevate test levels months after discontiniation. And if this accumulated zuclomiphene is as estrogenic as you say, and can cause gyno; wouldn't that also warrant the use of an AI? So I'm curious why you say one should never be used in PCT.
 
Smont

Smont

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
Clomid will not give you gyno. Here's a quick study using 25mg of clomid.
"CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism"
I get zero side effects from clomid other then my test levels rising as long as I use 50mg or less.

Even something like 25mg EOD will do the trick for most people and that should be side effect free for just about everyone
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I get zero side effects from clomid other then my test levels rising as long as I use 50mg or less.

Even something like 25mg EOD will do the trick for most people and that should be side effect free for just about everyone
I've never had a single side effect, but again I've always done 25mg EOD. Pharma grade from overseas(pretty easy to get). I'm of the train of thought, that lower doses for longer periods of time will always be superior to short term high doses.
 
rtmilburn

rtmilburn

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
My bad I wasnt imply to combine them. I was meaning individually



And I can't find it right now because I don't have time to but there was a study with letro where patients had test levels in the 200s that all got increased to above 1300s
 
rtmilburn

rtmilburn

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
To Bolex and rtmilburn, you NEVER take an AI for PCT. You only take a SERM.
Endos and most MDs in general don't know enough when it comes to the HPTA and its recovery.
Clomid is worthless because of the side effects it causes. Nolva works, but dosing needs to be low to prevent side effects. High doses will cause side effects of excessive low estrogenic activity. More is not better. 10mg EOD x30 days is sufficient to restart LH production without causing side effects that higher doses would. Fareston is very similar to Nolva, but is more potent. Fareston works for me at 1/4 tab (15mg) once every 4 days. My natural test levels are recovered by the second dose (I tested myself). Any higher than this and I get the same side effects of very low estrogen levels. Remember, these are breast cancer drugs meant for women. Men DO NOT need anywhere near the same dosages as women for natural test recovery purposes.
You literally have zero understanding of the currently published literature then
 
rtmilburn

rtmilburn

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Also for future reference. HCG should be run through an entire cycle starting at week one and continued as the test esters clear your body. The real goal of HCG is to maintain the testes sensitivity to LH signals. Fair warning though, HCG does cause a slight increase in E2. Always worth keeping an eye on.

EDIT: I can't believe the bro science in here.

🤣🤣 Someone suggested two serms. They achieve the same goal through the same mechanism. It's redundant and no wonder y'all complain about sides.

And Letro? Let's crush the kids E2 as if estrogen doesn't play any part in in the homeostasis of Male hormones. This will just crush his libido and erection quality further. Aromitase inhibitors are not a first line PCT product and should always/only be used in conjunction with a serm, at the lowest dose possible.

Lastly: One google search will return dozens of studies on succesful clomid use for restoring HPTA function.
Not recommended letro. It has the highest side effect profile of any pct option but it is a very effective method of restarting the hpta
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Not recommended letro. It has the highest side effect profile of any pct option but it is a very effective method of restarting the hpta
Any evidence to back this up. The only real use case I see for Letro(IMO) is as a very aggressive method of fighting gyno.

Of course for gyno, I'd suggest Raloxifine and possibly DHT(or precursor) as first line defense.

EDIT: I see you posted some studies above. I will check them out.
 
Last edited:
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
5
  • Best Answer
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
My bad I wasnt imply to combine them. I was meaning individually



And I can't find it right now because I don't have time to but there was a study with letro where patients had test levels in the 200s that all got increased to above 1300s
interesting.
 
bad rad

bad rad

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Last edited:

PhoenixGamer

Member
Awards
0
All serms work as E2 receptor against and antagonists. It's part of their MOA. By all means pick a different serm if you're afraid of Zuclomiphene, but don't go around spreading misinformation a d sensationalism. Clomid is still not going to cause gyno.

And if one was suffering from increased estrogenic side effects, wouldn't that warrant the use of an AI? Or even better: zuclomiphene does accumulate in the body, giving to clomids ability to elevate test levels months after discontiniation. And if this accumulated zuclomiphene is as estrogenic as you say, and can cause gyno; wouldn't that also warrant the use of an AI? So I'm curious why you say one should never be used in PCT.
Nope. You fail to understand the difference between Estradiol being elevated and estrogen receptors being activated. An AI will do NOTHING if the problem is estrogen receptor activation from a source other than Estradiol. Many things can activate the ER that are not Estradiol. Again, AI's only work if the problem is excess Estradiol.

And you are 100% wrong that Clomid can't cause gyno. It began happening to me because of the ER activation.
Some people can use Clomid, but there are other options available that are better and safer (Nolvadex and Fareston). Let's be honest, people get mad because they don't want to accept the fact that these drugs affect others differently.
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Fine, and I understood this but wasn't really sure what you believed, with your wording.That said, clomid has a much greater agonist effect at E2 receptor sites. Otherwise the research and real world use would support it.

And your experience/N=1 is not enough proof that clomid causes gyno. Show me one published study.

And you haven't given me a reason why Aromitase Inhibitors shouldn't be used in PCT, while I have stated my stance on their use.
 

hajisan

New member
Awards
0
Nolva and letro are just as good if not better than clomid.
As a SERM or AI of course. But it isn’t going to dick for his free and total test. I hate clomid and would never do it again, but that doesn’t mean a SERM or AI would restart me. Due to low LH, OC needs HCG on top of clomid IMO. He also needs to go to a TRT forum where there is less bro science.
 
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
HCG is suppressive. Stacking it with clomid would be counterproductive.
 
Smont

Smont

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
HCG is suppressive. Stacking it with clomid would be counterproductive.
Not necessarily, it's surpressive if you continue to use it. Taking a couple blast of it at the beginning of your serm will kick your nuts into gear, then you stop hcg and continue with your serm.

I don't like hcg on cycle, I feel like it's just flipping the switch on and off.

Instead I use to take my last shot of gear, wait about 2 weeks, blast some hcg EOD for 10 days or so (5 shots) and use my serm for 4 weeks or so. That recipe always put me back to high normal range.

I've done that, I've done no hcg and just used a serm. I've done no hcg and used 2 serms, I've done hcg on cycle and then used a serm after 2 weeks of stopping everything. The first pct I described in the previous paragraph works best for me if I'm coming off completely.
 

Similar threads


Top