Low HDL after oral cycles only a lab error?

[hairygrandpa]

I saw a video from "enhanced athlete" in the past (now no more available, was taken down) , where he stated that the drop of HDL is due to its molecular size "grows" when using AAS -and its now not detected by labs. Meaning there is NO drop in HDL -but its undetected, leading to the assumption its "low".


I have no idea if that is true... Anyone?

 

[Newth]

I saw a video from "enhanced athlete" in the past (now no more available, was taken down) , where he stated that the drop of HDL is due to its molecular size "grows" when using AAS -and its now not detected by labs. Meaning there is NO drop in HDL -but its undetected, leading to the assumption its "low".


I have no idea if that is true... Anyone?

Subbing

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Definitely interested in this. This would make orals much more promising if it’s true, considering that the biggest health concern with them (in my opinion) is cholesterol.

 

[Toren]

I don't have enough knowledge to fully elucidate the topic at hand. What we do know is that cholesterol and hormones go hand in hand and when hormonal profiles are altered, cholesterol levels are as well. For instance, low levels of estrogen are known to skew the cholesterol profile to a more negative balance. This is one of the reasons overusage of an AI on cycle is a bad thing.

We also know that cholesterol is made in the liver and oral steroids cause very specific changes within the liver that harm the ability of the organ to produce HDL and get rid of LDL within the body. Here is a solid article discussing how IM and oral steroids can affect cholesterol values.

Having said that, newer science shows us that particle size of both HDL and LDL is very important, much more so than specific HDL and LDL total values.

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/diet-weight-loss/article/cholesterol-size-matters

http://www.athero.org/commentaries/comm564.pdf

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120711210058.htm


There are studies and articles that explain the differences between the particle sizes and also how they might affect us differently.

https://www.bostonheartdiagnostics.com/science_portfolio_map_test.php

https://jeffreydachmd.com/2018/02/ldl-cholesterol-particle-size-and-number-what-gives/


The testing methods for specific types of HDL and LDL particles is more involved than standard total blood values.

http://www.jlr.org/content/42/8/1331.long

https://www.spectracell.com/clinicians/products/lpp/


As far as whether larger HDL particles can "hide" from a basic test, I'm not sure. I wonder if what he was referring to was the specifics of HDL and LDL. Maybe the video was discussing lower HDL levels not necessarily being bad because training and diet changed the specific particles sizes within the HDL profile and therefore the lower number matters less as the profile itself is better.. We do know that people with "normal" cholesterol values often suffer from heart disease and this "newer" science may help to explain why.

We also learn everyday that us human beings are only as smart as what we just found out and 1000 years from now our ancestors will laugh at our "technological genius" and science knowledge.

 

[Toren]

Cool topic, though. So much we just don't know. Great to learn new stuff everyday.

 

[Matthersby]

Subbed

 

[Toren]

Another reason why keeping liver values in check is important. An impaired liver can potentiate an impaired lipid profile. Chronic impairment versus a transient state of impairment does make a difference here for sure.

Elevated liver enzymes linked to arterial inflammation and metabolic syndrome.

 

[YoungThor]

There’s doctors out there nowadays that claim cholesterol levels aren’t even an accurate measure for who is or isn’t predisposed to heart disease. I wonder how common it is for AAS users, who keep their body weight within a normal range, to have a heart attack. It seems like it’s not common for guys who have a physique like a fitness model, or basketball player, or boxer to have a heart attack from AAS, but it’s more often guys who use them to get absolutely massive. That makes me think food intake and overall body size still plays as big a role as AAS when it comes to which users experience heart attacks. Of course, massive guys also take higher doses, and different types of AAS than guys who use them for sports or to just have a pretty decent physique.

 

[greg916]

I don’t know much on this topic but I remember watching an episode of Rxmuscle with Dave Palumbo and he agrees with this. That the orals actually skew the test for cholesterol. He said he doesn’t have any issues and he ran a bunch of anabolics for quite some time.

I think it probably depends on the user too but just wanted to chime in.

 

[hairygrandpa]

I don’t know much on this topic but I remember watching an episode of Rxmuscle with Dave Palumbo and he agrees with this. That the orals actually skew the test for cholesterol. He said he doesn’t have any issues and he ran a bunch of anabolics for quite some time.

I think it probably depends on the user too but just wanted to chime in.

Oh sh1t, any link to the vid?

 

[Whacked]

I don't have enough knowledge to fully elucidate the topic at hand. What we do know is that cholesterol and hormones go hand in hand and when hormonal profiles are altered, cholesterol levels are as well. For instance, low levels of estrogen are known to skew the cholesterol profile to a more negative balance. This is one of the reasons overusage of an AI on cycle is a bad thing.

We also know that cholesterol is made in the liver and oral steroids cause very specific changes within the liver that harm the ability of the organ to produce HDL and get rid of LDL within the body. Here is a solid article discussing how IM and oral steroids can affect cholesterol values.

Having said that, newer science shows us that particle size of both HDL and LDL is very important, much more so than specific HDL and LDL total values.

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/diet-weight-loss/article/cholesterol-size-matters

http://www.athero.org/commentaries/comm564.pdf

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120711210058.htm


There are studies and articles that explain the differences between the particle sizes and also how they might affect us differently.

https://www.bostonheartdiagnostics.com/science_portfolio_map_test.php

https://jeffreydachmd.com/2018/02/ldl-cholesterol-particle-size-and-number-what-gives/


The testing methods for specific types of HDL and LDL particles is more involved than standard total blood values.

http://www.jlr.org/content/42/8/1331.long

https://www.spectracell.com/clinicians/products/lpp/


As far as whether larger HDL particles can "hide" from a basic test, I'm not sure. I wonder if what he was referring to was the specifics of HDL and LDL. Maybe the video was discussing lower HDL levels not necessarily being bad because training and diet changed the specific particles sizes within the HDL profile and therefore the lower number matters less as the profile itself is better.. We do know that people with "normal" cholesterol values often suffer from heart disease and this "newer" science may help to explain why.

We also learn everyday that us human beings are only as smart as what we just found out and 1000 years from now our ancestors will laugh at our "technological genius" and science knowledge.

Wow. Killer post. Thanks

 

[kenpoengineer]

Enhanced Athlete posts videos here (if that’s Tony Huge):
https://anabolictv.com/

 

[Newth]

After briefly looking into artery disease a while back I found an interesting connection with supplementing and arterial heath.
As an overview I cant remember its name but there is a super-oxide that causes micro lesions in the arterial wall which is in turn patched up with plaque.
This super-oxide is blocked by either(?) nitrates,arginine and/or citrulline but over 2-3g per day and the body will start producing more super-oxide in response.
The antioxidant in pomegranate juice is apparently the best antioxidant to neutralize the super-oxide.
It was this far in my pc at the time died and I haven't followed this up.

If I manage to find the notes I took on this I will update with more detail but they are commonly used supplements for pump and bp it may be a consideration.
If anyone knows anything about this or can correct me please add to this.

 

[user567]

This is a good listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyIqYumAVN8

Basically says high LDL isnt bad. Says there is no correlation with high LDL and heart disease but there is correlation with low LDL

 

[greg916]

Oh sh1t, any link to the vid?

Let me look tonight after work and see if I can find it.