Lethargy on Epistane?

Ninjo

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Hey guys!

I'm on day 20 of a five week Epistane cycle...I've used it before and so started at 40mg per day and will continue at that dose the entire five weeks. I've also increased my usual TRT dose of 200mg test cyp/wk. to 500mg/wk.. Once I've completed 10 weeks at 500mg/wk., I'll drop it back down to the "cruise" level of 200mg/wk..

My question for those that have used Epistane/Havoc in the past is has anyone experienced significant lethargy at a dose as low as 40mg/day? I've been having to take two naps almost every day since week 2 and don't remember having had to do so on prior cycles with Epi.

I'd appreciate hearing back from anyone that has had a similar experience; want to make sure this isn't completely out of the ordinary.

Thanks in advance.
 
Whisky

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That’s a common side effect of orals generally bro, to be honest it didn’t affect me much on epistane but some of the stronger orals/higher dosss definitely,

but individual response varies

what are you taking for liver health?
 
Ninjo

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That’s a common side effect of orals generally bro, to be honest it didn’t affect me much on epistane but some of the stronger orals/higher dosss definitely,

but individual response varies

what are you taking for liver health?
TUDCA and Cycle Assist
 
Whisky

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TUDCA and Cycle Assist
lack of liver support and lack of a test base to drive estrogen would have been the two areas i would have suggested but you have both covered.

if you feel ok in yourself and your training well I’d just enjoy the extra sleep and the benefits it brings tbh bro
 
Renew1

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I guess Epistane had the second worst sides of any compound (for me).
It was about tied with SD.
 
Afi140

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Yeah orals do become more difficult to handle. Weird it’s happening with epistane since it’s pretty mild. Beat or lick to you as it seems like you have everything covered. You can add something like ultra hard if funds permit as the dht based compounds tend to increase my energy levels
 
Renew1

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Epistane beats the crap out of some guys

 
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prestoner

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As we get older orals become harder to handle. And by old i mean like 30 years old. Not 60. I used to handle them like peanuts nowadays they make me feel horrible and I’m just 31. Orals = poison.
Hit me at 30 as well. I’d get heartburn by day 2 on epistane. In my early 20’s I ate m1t for a year straight with no issues. Transdermal or injection from now on.
 
Hyde

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Hit me at 30 as well. I’d get heartburn by day 2 on epistane. In my early 20’s I ate m1t for a year straight with no issues. Transdermal or injection from now on.
Turned 30 last summer and they’ve been hitting me harder for sure. Lethargy on orals & low appetite since my very first oral run (epistane, ironically) but now acid reflux/indigestion is a huge side as well. Becomes impossible to eat clean, which means eating crap to get any calories in, which means awful reflux that perpetuates a cycle. Gotta hit em quick when really needed and move on.
 

JoePaul39

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My last cycle was Havoc. Had the worst fatigue I have ever had on it. Fatigue was terrible at 60 mg and even 40 mg dose, cut went away when I went down to 30 mg and I still had great strength gains on 30 mg. I would lower it to 30 mg and see how that treats you.
 

JoePaul39

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Turned 30 last summer and they’ve been hitting me harder for sure. Lethargy on orals & low appetite since my very first oral run (epistane, ironically) but now acid reflux/indigestion is a huge side as well. Becomes impossible to eat clean, which means eating crap to get any calories in, which means awful reflux that perpetuates a cycle. Gotta hit em quick when really needed and move on.
Curious, can the acid reflux from cycling orals eventually lead to something serious like you can get with Ibprofen and lead to developing a permanent ulcer or whole in your stomach?
 
KvanH

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At one point I thought Epistane is one of the harshest orals there is, since I heard so much about people having problems with it. Insomnia, lethargy, loss of appetite, achy joints, rebound gyno.

It seems that whereas some people might have an age chrisis when they hit 30, roiders have orals tolerance 'chrisis' 😁
 
KvanH

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As we get older orals become harder to handle. And by old i mean like 30 years old. Not 60. I used to handle them like peanuts nowadays they make me feel horrible and I’m just 31. Orals = poison.
Oh you're only 31. Somehow thought you're older.. 👴 🤷‍♂️
 
Renew1

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At one point I thought Epistane is one of the harshest orals there is, since I heard so much about people having problems with it. Insomnia, lethargy, loss of appetite, achy joints, rebound gyno.

It seems that whereas some people might have an age chrisis when they hit 30, roiders have orals tolerance 'chrisis' 😁
It isn't just about age....

When I used it (and for me, it had some of the Worst sides of Any compound) ..... I was comparing it to other compounds at the Same Point in my life.

So age didn't affect my assessment
 
KvanH

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It isn't just about age....

When I used it (and for me, it had some of the Worst sides of Any compound) ..... I was comparing it to other compounds at the Same Point in my life.

So age didn't affect my assessment
Yeah I didn't mean to say the Epistane sides are due to aging. I was kind of replying to two different matters. Before joining the boards and learning more about all the different gear if anyone would've asked me what is the most harsh oral I know, I would've said Epistane or SD. But as I've learned more, it shouldn't be that crazy harsh at least on paper and some users fare just fine with it even with high doses.

And the second paragraph was just about how many said here orals being much more harsh to them after turning 30 yo = )

I remember you mentioning before how Epistane was rough for you, even though some fare well with it. I think it was actually one of those threads/things where I started to realise the apsect of individual response to all these compounds = ) Before I would of thought you could just put up a list of gear from mildest to strongest - easiest to roughest and that's that.
 
Renew1

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Yeah I didn't mean to say the Epistane sides are due to aging. I was kind of replying to two different matters. Before joining the boards and learning more about all the different gear if anyone would've asked me what is the most harsh oral I know, I would've said Epistane or SD. But as I've learned more, it shouldn't be that crazy harsh at least on paper and some users fare just fine with it even with high doses.

And the second paragraph was just about how many said here orals being much more harsh to them after turning 30 yo = )

I remember you mentioning before how Epistane was rough for you, even though some fare well with it. I think it was actually one of those threads/things where I started to realise the apsect of individual response to all these compounds = ) Before I would of thought you could just put up a list of gear from mildest to strongest - easiest to roughest and that's that.
Ohhh... Yeah.

Yeah, we can make lists (and should .... That's part of what we're doing here) .... Ranking things in terms of General effects, as a General rule.

You know why I don't stress individualized effects more than I do?

Because SOO MANY guys assume that They are the outliers.
... And usually they aren't (that's why it's "outlier" rather that the norm).

I know you've seen it ...

Jimmy Newcomer assumes that because he doesn't Blow up on SD, that he must be a "non-responder".
... Instead of the much more probable: He's got bunk SD, or he's REALLY doing something wrong.

... And the guys who say, "I didn't PCT, and I'm fine".
(Individual response, blah, blah...).
Yeah ... He FEELS fine, but he comes back on here in a couple of months (or even a year) crying because he can't get it up, or he finally got bloodwork that shows he now has the Test levels of a 70 year old man.

LOL.

This wasn't directed at you brother.
Just explaining my position a little.

(y)
 
KvanH

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Ohhh... Yeah.

Yeah, we can make lists (and should .... That's part of what we're doing here) .... Ranking things in terms of General effects, as a General rule.

You know why I don't stress individualized effects more than I do?

Because SOO MANY guys assume that They are the outliers.
... And usually they aren't (that's why it's "outlier" rather that the norm).

I know you've seen it ...

Jimmy Newcomer assumes that because he doesn't Blow up on SD, that he must be a "non-responder".
... Instead of the much more probable: He's got bunk SD, or he's REALLY doing something wrong.

... And the guys who say, "I didn't PCT, and I'm fine".
(Individual response, blah, blah...).
Yeah ... He FEELS fine, but he comes back on here in a couple of months (or even a year) crying because he can't get it up, or he finally got bloodwork that shows he now has the Test levels of a 70 year old man.

LOL.

This wasn't directed at you brother.
Just explaining my position a little.

(y)
Yeah we have seen some entertaining come out's from some newcomers and the likes = ) I decided to read before posting. But you know what? I AM an outlier. I'm a non responder to hard work.. LOL
 
Hyde

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Curious, can the acid reflux from cycling orals eventually lead to something serious like you can get with Ibprofen and lead to developing a permanent ulcer or whole in your stomach?
I would assume if it becomes chronic, as my non-educated bropinion. Ie you cruise indefinitely with a mild oral or whatever is giving you reflux, I see no reason to treat it differently than someone who has chronic uncontrolled reflux from anything else. People get esophageal cancer and such even.

I imagine though that taking time off inbetween uses or just no longer using them as you age (don’t want to due to bloodwork or can’t hang) automatically makes it a non-issue by virtue of limited exposure. So it ends up being very difficult to chronically use them.

Yeah we have seen some entertaining come out's from some newcomers and the likes = ) I decided to read before posting. But you know what? I AM an outlier. I'm a non responder to hard work.. LOL
For joe average, most people have fairly low ceilings without drugs. You can work hard all you want, but if the right signaling isn’t happening in the body you’re not going to really improve. IMO, the drugs are ENABLERS of progress, when combined with the other pieces in place. You can take drugs and do nothing else and grow some, but to keep growing you will need drugs, diet, sleep, hard work all in play at some point to go as far as you can.
 
Whisky

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Curious, can the acid reflux from cycling orals eventually lead to something serious like you can get with Ibprofen and lead to developing a permanent ulcer or whole in your stomach?
sorry I meant to reply to this earlier.

I had bad diet related acid reflux for years (I.e I was a fat guy who ate like a cunt). I was diagnosed with a hiatus hernia then went on omeprazole for years which controlled it,......but the hernia remains.

basically left unchecked acid reflux can cause serious issues to the esophagus (inc ulcers and cancer).

I find Apple cider vinegar seems to help me but there is limited science on this, many people find the same though.

I only have an issue when pushing a bulk these days, maintaining or cutting my lifestyle changes manage it pretty well but on a bulk it’s a problem.

for short spells it’s unlikely to be a problem but too frequently over too many years is a different story
 

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