Labs moving in right direction. What would you do?

THOR 70

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Just got my labs back today. Happy but not satisfied. Want them optimized. Here they are compared to my May labs:

Total Test: (Range 348-1197)
May: 327
Now: 591

Free Test: (Range 8.7-25.1)
May: 11.5
Now: 12.9

Estrogen: (Range 12-72)
May: 84
Now: 77


In May, I tried tried to use clomid/arimidex to boost test and lower E. I felt libido go up, but I felt almost emotionally void. Like I didn't care about anything. Bordering on something like anxiety/depression. That was at 25mg clomid EOD and .5 Adex EOD. Maybe I tanked my estrogen?

I supplemented heavy with typical Test boosting supps (mag, zinc, ashwaghanda, Maca/trib) and was running the trip up to 3 days before my test.

What would you do if you were in my shoes?

1- Be happy with my progress and try to continue with natural supps and get my Test a bit higher and estrogen lower?

2-I could take advantage of my doc being willing to write me drugs and try a really low and slow approach again with like clomid 12.5 EOD or E3D and adex .25 E3D.

Age 32
5 previous cycles. Mostly Test/orals but also experience with sarms, PH, peptides, MK.
6'4" 265lbs
19% bf estimate.
Diet: 75% paleo with carb cycling. Don't count macros.
Have a lot of muscle but it needs to be uncovered. My Love handles piss me off.


Glad I have this board as a resource. Thanks for your input.
 
THOR 70

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Option 3- I just run a gram of test enanth and stop thinking so much.
 
kenpoengineer

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Were all tests performed fasted and first thing in the morning?
 
mike33511

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How long have you been off the Clomid? If your test levels stay around 600, then that is a decent number. I would be more worried about your E2. You could try cutting a bit to see if that helps. If it doesn't, you could run an AI for a bit. With test levels around 600 and E2 in the 20-40 range, you would probably feel pretty good.
 

ucheoma

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Are your 'Now' results following the Clomid and Adex or the supplements? Or did you combine both the supps and Clomid/Adex?
 
THOR 70

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I agree Mike3351. E2 is def my first priority. I'm going to try and cut and drop some belly fat.

I only did the clomid/adex for like a week after my may tests. Then I stopped those and went natural route with supps.
 
trtdoc

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You need to drop the estradiol, this can make you feel like complete crap.

adex 0.5mg bi weekly is usually sufficient to keep therapeutic range. Your TT is also pretty low. I have found that around 1000ng/dl is the sweet spot for most individuals even if their free t is on the higher end.

Dr. B
 
THOR 70

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You need to drop the estradiol, this can make you feel like complete crap.

adex 0.5mg bi weekly is usually sufficient to keep therapeutic range. Your TT is also pretty low. I have found that around 1000ng/dl is the sweet spot for most individuals even if their free t is on the higher end.

Dr. B
Thanks Doc. Great to have you around. I have decided to retry clomid/adex at lower doses.

Clomid: 12.5mg E3D
Adex: .25 EOD

Maybe run this for 2-3 months and recheck labs? Let me know your thoughts!
 
trtdoc

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Definitely. Good approach, labs don't lie. Always best to start low and work up.

Dr B
 
John Smeton

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For Natural hormones levels and doing five cycles at 32, thats pretty good man. I did ten cycles from 2004-2012 and in 2012 total test tested low, and was sent to an endocrinologist. I tested five times total t didnt go over 315 , and this was two weeks after d aspartic acid, which definitely brought mine up to their highest. I was put on trt.

the more cycles you do and longer ones you risk natural hormones not working right. Some people may be able to genetically recover better. Maybe youre one, the only way youll know is bloodwork. As far as body -fat levels 19% isnt pretty and Id get them down , don't be surprised if you drop 35 pounds of fat. Its a big challenge for sure, Ive been 260 before at 20 %, maybe higher. Do it for your health and feeling good.
 
THOR 70

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For Natural hormones levels and doing five cycles at 32, thats pretty good man. I did ten cycles from 2004-2012 and in 2012 total test tested low, and was sent to an endocrinologist. I tested five times total t didnt go over 315 , and this was two weeks after d aspartic acid, which definitely brought mine up to their highest. I was put on trt.

the more cycles you do and longer ones you risk natural hormones not working right. Some people may be able to genetically recover better. Maybe youre one, the only way youll know is bloodwork. As far as body -fat levels 19% isnt pretty and Id get them down , don't be surprised if you drop 35 pounds of fat. Its a big challenge for sure, Ive been 260 before at 20 %, maybe higher. Do it for your health and feeling good.

Yeah for what I've put into my body I'm happy to be where I'm at. Just went to maximize it now. I have been struggling to lose the weight. I competed in college at 265 and was probably closer to 25% bf. Wife said I hold 265 way better now. I've deft become more muscular and less fat. Post collegiate I got down to 219 and could see abs tho. With kids, real estate investments, multiples jobs, i just don't seem to have the willpower or drive to stick with a diet/count macros. Got to 245 a couples summers ago also, but all I felt like I was doing was working out all the time.

What would you suggest diet wise for someone with my build/hormone profile? Right now I just try to eat Whole Foods and I am quite the supplement nerd so I take a lot of non commercialized supps. I actually think I'm underfed and need to eat a ton more quality food and not be carb phobic. Also hope maximizing my hormones will help with drive and discipline.

Open to suggestions on how you did it. Thanks man
 
John Smeton

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Yeah for what I've put into my body I'm happy to be where I'm at. Just went to maximize it now. I have been struggling to lose the weight. I competed in college at 265 and was probably closer to 25% bf. Wife said I hold 265 way better now. I've deft become more muscular and less fat. Post collegiate I got down to 219 and could see abs tho. With kids, real estate investments, multiples jobs, i just don't seem to have the willpower or drive to stick with a diet/count macros. Got to 245 a couples summers ago also, but all I felt like I was doing was working out all the time.

What would you suggest diet wise for someone with my build/hormone profile? Right now I just try to eat Whole Foods and I am quite the supplement nerd so I take a lot of non commercialized supps. I actually think I'm underfed and need to eat a ton more quality food and not be carb phobic. Also hope maximizing my hormones will help with drive and discipline.

Open to suggestions on how you did it. Thanks man
hey man ive been a supplement nerd since 2002 hahaha. Congrats on staying the same weight and dropping body fat, that is always a good goal to stay the same weight and recomp over time. That said, to get off the bodyfat youre going to have to go at it aggressively and for months. Ive been doing this a long time. Hopefully, I can help you.
The biggest thing I can tell you is look in the mirror and go by the mirror. seeing too much fat around the back and sides? do something about it. Ive found that for me high protein a must 1.5 grams usually when coming down in body-fat. some days even more when carbs are very, very low, some days less when carbs are higher. A lot of casual lifters guys will tell you its too much,but all the professionals ive talked to, and my own experience Ive found ive gotten better results with higher protein. Most people dont push to true failure and beyond, and do this to the extreme like I do. On non weight training days you can really go low in calories, ill take in less calories and yes even a bit protein, its at least 1 gram minimum, and usually higher.

You can do it with diet. You'll be going through some feelings and its not fun, but nothing worth having is, as you already know results take difficult work. Probably good you're a carb phobic. Lots of vegetables help with your zero carbohydrate meals. I find it easier to do cardio, and in my experience you have to train a lot. Fasted cardio upon awaking, then later 6 -8 hours later weight training. Meals every 2-3 hours with protein shakes maybe every other meal for convenience. Counting calories is important so you know what to keep track of and add, subtract, and see how much protein carbs and fats you take in every day. Some guys can do it without counting calories. Its always worked for me. Ive eaten 250 grams protein since 2002 just about everyday , started counting carbs and fats in 2005 or 2006, upped it to 400 grams in 2007 , now its like 350 grams or so. I have notebooks and notebooks of nutrition logs I dont know where to put them

For someone with your hormone profile start cutting , you can start off by reducing carbs by 15 % and go from there. Or doing cardio first thing upon awaking.
 
THOR 70

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hey man ive been a supplement nerd since 2002 hahaha. Congrats on staying the same weight and dropping body fat, that is always a good goal to stay the same weight and recomp over time. That said, to get off the bodyfat youre going to have to go at it aggressively and for months. Ive been doing this a long time. Hopefully, I can help you.
The biggest thing I can tell you is look in the mirror and go by the mirror. seeing too much fat around the back and sides? do something about it. Ive found that for me high protein a must 1.5 grams usually when coming down in body-fat. some days even more when carbs are very, very low, some days less when carbs are higher. A lot of casual lifters guys will tell you its too much,but all the professionals ive talked to, and my own experience Ive found ive gotten better results with higher protein. Most people dont push to true failure and beyond, and do this to the extreme like I do. On non weight training days you can really go low in calories, ill take in less calories and yes even a bit protein, its at least 1 gram minimum, and usually higher.

You can do it with diet. You'll be going through some feelings and its not fun, but nothing worth having is, as you already know results take difficult work. Probably good you're a carb phobic. Lots of vegetables help with your zero carbohydrate meals. I find it easier to do cardio, and in my experience you have to train a lot. Fasted cardio upon awaking, then later 6 -8 hours later weight training. Meals every 2-3 hours with protein shakes maybe every other meal for convenience. Counting calories is important so you know what to keep track of and add, subtract, and see how much protein carbs and fats you take in every day. Some guys can do it without counting calories. Its always worked for me. Ive eaten 250 grams protein since 2002 just about everyday , started counting carbs and fats in 2005 or 2006, upped it to 400 grams in 2007 , now its like 350 grams or so. I have notebooks and notebooks of nutrition logs I dont know where to put them

For someone with your hormone profile start cutting , you can start off by reducing carbs by 15 % and go from there. Or doing cardio first thing upon awaking.
John sorry I've been meaning to get back with you on this. Been slammed. I think your advice is great. Good for a kick in the ass motivation.

What are your thoughts on fasting?
I tend to be super busy and this seems like a good solution. I would have to still hit my macros? I'm not worried about dropping muscle I tend to hold onto it quite well.
 
tdillard

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Damn, those are good numbers for 5 cycles, so many variables here, but If it were me, I would do 12.5 mg of aromasin EOD or E3D (as it has less sides for me) and what if you lowered the chlomid and threw in some tomaxafin as well for E3D? I'd do that for 4 weeks and get another test done, better to see that E2 in range for at least peace of mind. Well done though!
 
THOR 70

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Damn, those are good numbers for 5 cycles, so many variables here, but If it were me, I would do 12.5 mg of aromasin EOD or E3D (as it has less sides for me) and what if you lowered the chlomid and threw in some tomaxafin as well for E3D? I'd do that for 4 weeks and get another test done, better to see that E2 in range for at least peace of mind. Well done though!
Thanks man! I def do a lot supplement and lifestyle things to try and keep my levels decent. I am feeling pretty good with my current protocol. Haven't considered nolva tho
 
John Smeton

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John sorry I've been meaning to get back with you on this. Been slammed. I think your advice is great. Good for a kick in the ass motivation.

What are your thoughts on fasting?
I tend to be super busy and this seems like a good solution. I would have to still hit my macros? I'm not worried about dropping muscle I tend to hold onto it quite well.
Ive played with it and it did seem to help lean me out better. I didnt do it very long, maybe a few weeks, when getting ready for junior nationals attempting to come in my leanest. From my experience its not optimal for optimal muscle gains and retention, but it worked well for dropping body fat, as long as you get in your calories in a set time , that's fine. When you fast appetite seems to go down , maybe sip on some coffee throughout the day, that's up to you, when you do start eating again appetite may get very hungry. I did this sometimes on off weight training days as I like to have a few meals prior to training. Its worth a try for a while. The good thing is , you can always go back to regular feedings of every 2-3 hours whenever you want or you can this on off weight training days.

I also did two times a day training and was taking yohimbine hcl, which no insulin spike supposed to be done with yohimbine, not even something small as bcaa's so i would train first thing upon awaking a body part like say hamstrings on leg day, then eat a couple meals then come back to the gym and do quadriceps. This two times a day training worked for dropping bodyfat as I was stimulating my metabolism twice a day and it beat doing cardio, which Ive been doing for two or three months and was so tired of it. I did this maybe three weeks, then went back to fasted cardio, then weight training later.
 

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