Labs after sub-q trt, E2 & hematocrit skyhigh!

gr26

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Hi all,

I just received my lab results taken one month after switching to my new sub-Q protocol:

62.5mg sub-Q T enanthate 2 X week (total 125mg EW) + 250IU sub-Q HCG 2X week (total 500IU EW).
both injected at the same evening,
each of them in a different place in the abdomen.

I'm 23, healthy and trying eating healthy - low carbs/high protein/moderate good fats.
eating 200 grams of cruciferous vegetables every day (broccoli/cleavage).
supplementing daily with fish oil, vit C, multivitamin (no iron), zinc, magnesium, TMG, creatine, MSM, & 5000IU vit-d.
training regularly in the gym.

blood was taken on 10/02/2014, the morning of my scheduled day for the first weekly evening injection:


  • DHEA SO4 7.78 UMOL/L ( 7.60- 17.40) (*........)
  • ESTRADIOL(E2) 196.42 PMOL/L ( 0.00- 146.10) (.........)*
  • FSH < 0.8 ( 1.40- 18.10)
  • LH < 0.2 ( 1.50- 9.30)
  • PROLACTIN 178.86 MU/L ( 45.00- 375.00) (...*.....)
  • TESTOSTERONE 33.31 NMOL/L ( 8.40- 28.70) (.........)*
  • FREE ANDROGEN INDEX 86.20 ( 30.00- 150.00) (...*.....)
  • SHBG 41.10 NMOL/L ( 13.00- 71.00) (...*.....)

  • FREE T4 13.20 PMOL/L ( 9.00- 19.00) (...*.....)
  • FREE T3 3.00 PMOL/L ( 2.66- 5.70) (*........)
  • TSH 2.03 UIU/ML ( 0.35- 4.94) (..*......)

  • WBC 4.60 K/UL ( 4.00- 10.00) (*........)
  • NEUTROPHILS 2.60 K/UL ( 1.80- 6.60) (.*.......)
  • NEUTROPHILS % 57.30 % ( 46.00- 68.00) (....*....)
  • LYMPHOCYTES 1.50 K/UL ( 1.10- 3.50) (.*.......)
  • LYMPHOCYTES % 32.00 % ( 15.00- 45.00) (....*....)
  • MONOCYTES 0.40 K/UL ( 0.08- 0.90) (...*.....)
  • MONOCYTES % 8.80 % ( 2.00- 9.00) (........*)
  • EOSINOPHILS 0.10 K/UL ( 0.00- 0.60) (.*.......)
  • EOSINOPHILS % 1.50 % ( 0.00- 6.00) (.*.......)
  • BASOPHILS 0.00 K/UL ( 0.00- 0.15)
  • BASOPHILS % 0.40 % ( 0.00- 1.50) (.*.......)
  • RBC 5.38 MU/L ( 4.30- 6.00) (.....*...)
  • HEMOGLOBIN 17.30 G/DL ( 13.50- 17.50) (........*)
  • HEMATOCRIT 49.90 % ( 38.00- 50.00) (........*)
  • MCV 92.80 FL ( 80.00- 98.00) (.....*...)
  • MCH 32.10 PG ( 27.00- 33.00) (.......*.)
  • MCHC 34.60 G/DL ( 32.00- 35.50) (......*..)
  • PLATELETS 161.00 K/UL ( 150.00- 400.00) (*........)
  • MPV 7.80 FL ( 6.50- 11.50) (.*.......)
  • RDW 13.80 % ( 11.00- 16.00) (....*....)
a few questions came up:

1.
ESTRADIOL -it is way above normal range! what should i do? i thought that SC injection should lower it.
is Arimidex/anastrozole the only solution? what exactly should I ask my doc, and what is the recommended dosage?

2. I currently have no place to get an AI, would taking dim(diindolylmethane) or Indole-3-carbinol may help?

3. should I consider changing my protocol (HCG dosage/frequency)?


4. HEMATOCRIT - very high. with androgel I never got those high numbers.
does it mean I must donate blood? is it a regular donation or RBC only donation? I never done this before.
are there other ways of decreasing it?

5. HEMOGLOBIN -very high too. is it correlated with HEMATOCRIT? same questions for it.

6. DHEA SO4 - it is almost bellow range, what does that indicate? should I look into it?

7. how are my T /
FREE ANDROGEN INDEX / SHBG values?

8. lastly - what do my TSH/T3/T4 indicate about my thyroid?
from measurements I took for a week I'm getting 36.0 celsius (96.8 fahrenheit) e
very morning in bed before getting up.
am I iodine deficient? noting again that I'm eating 200 grams of cruciferous vegetables each day (which may interfere with iodine intake).

sorry I have so many questions,
I appreciate any help.


 

FireRescue

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I don't have time to adress all your questions, but do you carry a lot of bodyfat? That could be part of your e2 problem. For many smaller dosage more frequent administration of T means less of a needs for an AI but does not necessarily eliminate it. It sound like you are one who needs and AI. You also might try to lower your T dose a touch but that may not be enough.

I would inject the HCG the day before your T injection and not the day of.
 
bigt405

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Hematocrit and hemoglobin are related to each other......
 

gr26

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thanks for the quick replays,

more info about me:
I have pretty low body fat - around 10%, and I actually drink a lot (water, no alcohol at all :) ).

moer info about Hct and Hgb - I have pretty low blood pressure (95/60 and less) and pulse (60),
does it matter?

I'm now considering injecting the HCG a day before the T instead of both together (did it for convenience only),
would it make much of a difference E2 wise?

and I'm somewhat unsure if the HCG dose is effective, is there a way to tell?
blood test values or even something with pregnancy test I think I once read...

about high E2 - well I currently don't have high E2 symptoms, but should I worry about gyno? what are the indicators that thing get worse?

should I have obtain a SERM just to have a quick treatment if a gyno will occur, and if so which one is recommended?

many say the optimal E2 is about 22(pg/ml) while mine is 53, but again I understand that T is high too?
what is ratio of E2/T or E2/free T that I should seek?
as for lowering my T dose - as long as that ratio is in place what's bad in having a bit more of both?
any long term health considerations?

from an online calculator I got these values (from SHBG+FAI):
free testosterone - 0.705 nmol/L = %2.12
bioavailable testosterone - 16.5 nmol/L = %49.6

just for my understanding - should I seek lowering SHBG to have more free T?
how do I effect it?

thanks again for the help.
 

pmgamer18

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Hi gr26,

Most men on TRT will have higher levels Hematocrit and hemoglobin and you say you drink enough water. The mornig of my Test and the day before it I make sure I am drinking a good 8 glass's of water and in the morning before the test I down a good 4 glass's of water.

My Dr. told me to do this we don't worry about the near top of range for my Hematocrit and hemoglobin levels. Because I do labs every 10 weeks and they take about a pint of blood.

Yet I never had them higher levels until we found out I have low Ferritin and Iron levels so I am on Iron pills for life. And it was after this my levels of Hematocrit and hemoglobin went up near the top of the range.

The way I do TRT is I do an 80 mgs shot E3D subQ into my belly fat and I do 250 IU's of HCG the day before my Depo T shot E3D. I take Aromasin to keep my Estradiol levels down and I feel dam good.

Five yrs ago I had Open Heart Bypass Surgery never had a heart attack just some bad heartburn. I have a dam good Dr. keep kept testing until they seen I had two blockage 99% going to my heart.

So still with all this my Dr.'s are not worried about my higher levels of Hematocrit and hemoglobin.

If you can't get on some Arimidex try this brand of DIM it is Indolplex/DIM it gets past your gut and works. In time your Estradiol levels will come down using this take it at dinner time.

Enzymatic Therapy, Pure Rip with DIM, Men's Health

If you can get some Arimidex or Aromasin here is a copy of a file I made about taking it and not going to low on it.
=======================================
How To Take Arimdex or Aromasin and not go down on your Estradiol to Low.



What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low until my next labs.

The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you can hang a coat on it.

Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said >90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.

I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels back up.

I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3 days.

So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.

I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need .25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.

So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets me dose my arimidex by how I feel.

Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.
 
Whacked

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Nice post pmgamer
 
Whacked

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Well if that's the case please stick around!

We could all use ur insight!! ;)

Thanks I have been at this or on TRT over 33 yrs. I try to help men so they don't have to go down that hard road I had to go down.
 

pmgamer18

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I am here and will keep at this as long as I can just turned 70 and my heart Dr.'s say after having Open Heart Bypass Surgery my heart has fully recovered and I have a good 30 yrs left. Do we not think some Dr.'s are full of it.
 
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Haha. You are correct.

Happy bday man

I am here and will keep at this as long as I can just turned 70 and my heart Dr.'s say after having Open Heart Bypass Surgery my heart has fully recovered and I have a good 30 yrs left. Do we not think some Dr.'s are full of it.
 
LMuscle

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I am here and will keep at this as long as I can just turned 70 and my heart Dr.'s say after having Open Heart Bypass Surgery my heart has fully recovered and I have a good 30 yrs left. Do we not think some Dr.'s are full of it.
70? Wow! Makes me feel a LOT better about being on TRT. When did you have open heart surgery? Did you have a heart attack, or prevent one?
 

pmgamer18

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It was 5 yrs ago last Nov. I had some bad heartburn my treated this but it got no better so we did a stress test on my heart nothing showed up. So he ordered a 24 bit scan this showed two 99% blockages going to my heart. And they tried to do a Coronary angioplasty (AN-jee-o-plas-tee) But the blockages was to calcified and it would not work.

I had good Chol. levels all my life so it was not from high Cholesterol I was told by my present Heart Dr. is was all them years of low Growth Hormone. And things went bad after the surgery they took me off TRT even when it said in my chart not to. So I got a bad infection in my chest and was put into a coma for over 14 weeks.

Until my Family Dr. heard I was not getting better and came to see me in the ICU first thing he seen was I was off TRT and had me put back on it after that the infection when away.

Bad thing about all this is I was put on Statin Drugs even when I told them I would not take them so the Dr. went to my family telling them like he is GOD that If I did not take the Statin Drugs I would not live out the year. I had problems with pain in my lower body and upper legs from the Statin Drugs but no one would listen to me until after 2 yrs of this crap one morning I could not stand up or walk.

It was after this they said the Statin Drugs crippled me and then they took me off them but it was to late the damage is done I can't stand up or walk with out a walker.

I am still lucky I never had a heart attack so today my heart has recovered 100%.
 

FireRescue

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Wow! Thanks for sharing your story.

Your story has many parts to it that the conventional medical orthodoxy just doesn't seem to understand benefits or risk of (TRT leading to blockages, statin drugs, Chol being the be all and end all number as a predictor for cardiovasular problems).
 
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I second all of this!

Wow! Thanks for sharing your story.

Your story has many parts to it that the conventional medical orthodoxy just doesn't seem to understand benefits or risk of (TRT leading to blockages, statin drugs, Chol being the be all and end all number as a predictor for cardiovasular problems).
 

pmgamer18

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I would never tell anyone not to take Statin Drugs but I feel they do more harm to people then good and everyday they are finding more bad things about it. I would tell people on them to take Ubiquinol CoQ10 Capliques Featuring Kaneka's Qh (200mgs) depending on how lower there CoQ10 labs are. I take 200 mgs 3x's / day.
 

gr26

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thanks all for the quick response (esp. pmgamer),
very good info about the Hematocrit, and I do drink a lot of water daily and planning keeping that way :)
and I'll definitely use the info about crashing on AI.

I recently started taking natural way's "DIM plus" once daily each evening,
and also shifted my HCG shots a day back - a day before my T shot E3D.
hope they both help lowering the E2, I'll do another lab test soon.


I'll appreciate any help about the questions and concerns I wrote in my previous post, mainly -
is my thyroid performing well?
how to tell if HCG dose is effective?
what are the symptoms of high E2, and from what level there is a risk of gyno?

what is ratio of E2/T or E2/freeT that I should seek?

and as for lowering my T dose - as long as that ratio is in place what's bad in having a bit more of both?
any long term health considerations?
I do think I benefit from the higher T levels.


thanks again.
 

pmgamer18

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I don't mod at Thyroid forums anymore they keep shutting down due to law suet's. And I feel after all them yrs being a member at them most of them are wrong. All this stuff about keeping your FT3 up into the top of the range.

And this drives down TSH going on the thinking that TSH is only the message from the Pituitary that tells the Thyroid to make hormones. And this is true but TSH also tells the body to make Deiodinase Enzyme (D2) that converts T4 into T3.

And RT3 into T2 here is a link to her site http://www.tiredthyroid.com/index.html I say don't ask others on the web how your Thyroid labs look learn about this and figure out what works best for you your self. What is good for one is not good for the other and if you like her site get her new book that just came out.

I can't stop reading it and it in everyday peoples language it's the first time I have read a book about health were I did not have to look up the meaning of words.

http://*******.com/l2eygnf

As for the DIM your taking most of it gets killed in your gut the best kind is Indolplex/DIM

http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0

You might get yours to work if you mix it with a tsp full of olive oil this helps get it past your gut.

I think most men do well on 250 IU's of HCG your doing shots E3D so do this size shot the day before your Test C shot E3D.

Forget about ratio's I have been down this road and other men I have talked to. You get the ratio right and feel like crap so to me ratio's are crap.

As for symptoms of high E2 Here is a list of some of the symptoms of high E2 (you don't have to experience all of the symptoms to know that you have high E2):
* Depression
* Trouble reaching an orgasm
* No erections while sleeping (i.e. "night wood" or "morning wood")
* Anxiety
* Panic Attacks
* Prostate problems
* Gynecomastia
* Water Retention
* Dizziness/Vertigo
* Increased Blood Pressure
* Decreased Libido
* ED
* When penis is limp, it doesn't hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
* Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
* Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
* Lack of Libido
* Crying while watching TV shows/movies
* Easier to get angry (think PMS)
* Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
* Larger stomach
* Redness on the face and/or chest
* Feeling hotter than everybody else
* Thinner skin/bleeding easier
* Headaches/Migraines



thanks all for the quick response (esp. pmgamer),
very good info about the Hematocrit, and I do drink a lot of water daily and planning keeping that way :)
and I'll definitely use the info about crashing on AI.

I recently started taking natural way's "DIM plus" once daily each evening,
and also shifted my HCG shots a day back - a day before my T shot E3D.
hope they both help lowering the E2, I'll do another lab test soon.


I'll appreciate any help about the questions and concerns I wrote in my previous post, mainly -
is my thyroid performing well?
how to tell if HCG dose is effective?
what are the symptoms of high E2, and from what level there is a risk of gyno?

what is ratio of E2/T or E2/freeT that I should seek?

and as for lowering my T dose - as long as that ratio is in place what's bad in having a bit more of both?
any long term health considerations?
I do think I benefit from the higher T levels.


thanks again.
 
Whacked

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Pmgamer. Your real world experience and insight are a treasure here man ;)
 

pmgamer18

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Whacked,

Thanks for the kind words I just wish I could have started helping men sooner my misson in life is to try to let people know they don't need to walk around sick all there life. My road was a long hard one and it should not have been that way Dr.'s need to slow down and listen them men labs are just part of all this many men can be in the normal range but at the low end of it and Dr.'s just tell them they are fine they don't listen to how the poor guy is feeling.
Pmgamer. Your real world experience and insight are a treasure here man ;)
 
Whacked

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Well-deserved man ;)
 

edmassa

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PmgAmer may I ask what your aromasin dosing schedule is?
 

edmassa

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Also do you take the pills or liquid research chemical . If pills how do you break those suckers
 

gr26

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thank you all for the comments,

I will indeed read more about thyroid problems, a lot of important info.

I'm actually taking "DIM-PLUS" which has the same bio-response formula as the one you suggested so I hope it will help a bit.
( Nature-s-Way-DIM-plus)

I also moved the HCG shot to the day before my T shot, hope that will be helpful as well.


I will do another blood work soon and i'll be back to update and consult.


any other insights anyone?
 

gr26

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Hi guys, quick question:

tomorrow morning I'm planning to take another blood test,
and today's evening is my weekly first HCG injection (as tomorrow is the weekly first T injection).

just a reminder - my protocol is:
62.5mg sub-Q T enanthate 2 X week (total 125mg EW)
250IU sub-Q HCG 2X week (total 500IU EW), a day before The T injection day.


should I inject the HCG today or not?

on the one hand injecting it today will obviously affect the blood test tomorrow morning (which is mainly to check the high E2 values I got in the last test),
but on the other hand - not injecting it today meaning that the values I'll get in the test tomorrow will not reflect the real E2 blood values that I normally have with my protocol - and that is what I really want to find out...

I know the recommendation is to take blood test on the day of the weekly T shot - before the shot (and that's what I do),
but what about the HCG?

thanks for the help.
 

Michael T

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It's good to see you here! You helped me out several times with your dosing schedule, and how you control E2. I'm still on hrt after 9 years and wouldn't
stop it for nothing. You don't realize how many people your information has helped! Michael T,
 

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