Keep your gains

[Chados]

This is by far the most effective way I've kept the gains and I'd like to share it with you guys. I don't by any means suggest this is the best way or that anyone should do this because I did it. It's just from personal experience and maybe start a discussion.

This is for advanced users and not someone running an oral cycle only.

First of all I'd like to focus on the enthanate rather than prop. This is a longer cycle with something like npp which I'm gonna use here to make It easier even if any injectible steroid would Suffice the 19 nors will make you run in to a much bigger problem so let's use that as the example.

I like to keep test lower than to avoid sides and I think it's reasonable to assume most people run test for 12 weeks and npp 8-10.

Now to the topic. There are many ways to keep muscle but any time you drop a compound regardless if test is involved you will add cortisol, you will lose the pump, the dryness etc even if its to a smaller degree you're basically already in PCT mode when having test. The enthanate ester will be leaving your body slowly during weeks 12 when you last inject and 14. People like to run a serm at week 14 because the test is out which means your body will gradually lose its power from the steroid and slowly putting you in a catabolic state.

How do we prevent this?. Many people run sarms during bridges or even pct which arguably works but everyone's different, sarms aren't always what they're said to to be and you're ultimately running in to the risk of doing more damage than good.

S4 and ostarine are arguably as good if not better than DHT to preserve muscle, granted they don't add as much muscle but thats not the goal here. The goal is to keep the gains from the npp and keep the gains from the test as good as possible. Why be 4 weeks without npp and then 2 weeks with barely any test then jump in to a catabolic state before pct?

To prevent as much damage to the hpta as possible, and get as much out of it I'll add S4 and ostarine (during cycle at week 6-14) yes 14. I want the sarms to build up but I also wanna drop them while I'm supposed to be in a catabolic state which I wont be to the same degree having the sarms, then I want to add a serm before week 14 again for catabolic reasons. I'll add this at week 11 or 10 to have at least 2-3 weeks to recover from the sarms and while test is still active so I'm not completely empty when starting pct.

A cycle would look like this

Test e 12 weeks 200mg
NPP 10 weeks 500mg
S4 50mg weeks 6-14
Ostarine 5 or 10mg (max) weeks 6-14
Nolvadex 40/40/20/20/10/10 weeks 10 or 11-16 or 17.


I also wanna add a cortisol blocker during pct like lean extreme. 1 capsule morning, one afternoon and one at night before bed. I'll run this for the 6 weeks I'm on the serm.

My diet will be higher fat lower carbs which can be the opposite during the cycle.
Omega 3s will be the main energy source.

Vitamin c 1000mg 30 min pre workout with bcaa and creatine.

An addition to this would be mk677 which I have been using.

 

[Mitch_310]

This is by far the most effective way I've kept the gains and I'd like to share it with you guys. I don't by any means suggest this is the best way or that anyone should do this because I did it. It's just from personal experience and maybe start a discussion.

This is for advanced users and not someone running an oral cycle only.

First of all I'd like to focus on the enthanate rather than prop. This is a longer cycle with something like npp which I'm gonna use here to make It easier even if any injectible steroid would Suffice the 19 nors will make you run in to a much bigger problem so let's use that as the example.

I like to keep test lower than to avoid sides and I think it's reasonable to assume most people run test for 12 weeks and npp 8-10.

Now to the topic. There are many ways to keep muscle but any time you drop a compound regardless if test is involved you will add cortisol, you will lose the pump, the dryness etc even if its to a smaller degree you're basically already in PCT mode when having test. The enthanate ester will be leaving your body slowly during weeks 12 when you last inject and 14. People like to run a serm at week 14 because the test is out which means your body will gradually lose its power from the steroid and slowly putting you in a catabolic state.

How do we prevent this?. Many people run sarms during bridges or even pct which arguably works but everyone's different, sarms aren't always what they're said to to be and you're ultimately running in to the risk of doing more damage than good.

S4 and ostarine are arguably as good if not better than DHT to preserve muscle, granted they don't add as much muscle but thats not the goal here. The goal is to keep the gains from the npp and keep the gains from the test as good as possible. Why be 4 weeks without npp and then 2 weeks with barely any test then jump in to a catabolic state before pct?

To prevent as much damage to the hpta as possible, and get as much out of it I'll add S4 and ostarine (during cycle at week 6-14) yes 14. I want the sarms to build up but I also wanna drop them while I'm supposed to be in a catabolic state which I wont be to the same degree having the sarms, then I want to add a serm before week 14 again for catabolic reasons. I'll add this at week 11 or 10 to have at least 2-3 weeks to recover from the sarms and while test is still active so I'm not completely empty when starting pct.

A cycle would look like this

Test e 12 weeks 200mg
NPP 10 weeks 500mg
S4 50mg weeks 6-14
Ostarine 5 or 10mg (max) weeks 6-14
Nolvadex 40/40/20/20/10/10 weeks 10 or 11-16.


I also wanna add a cortisol blocker during pct like lean extreme. 1 capsule morning, one afternoon and one at night before bed. I'll run this for the 6 weeks I'm on the serm.

My diet will be higher fat lower carbs which can be the opposite during the cycle.
Omega 3s will be the main energy source.

Vitamin c 1000mg 30 min pre workout with bcaa and creatine.

An addition to this would be mk677 which I have been using.

Well yeah it looks like a good way to keep gains. Not to hate on you, But it would make sense to keep gains if you’re running a whole different stack of sarms and peptides during the pct. what has your blood work been like if you’ve done this before??? I loved running s4 personally. Never done mk677. But running something suppressive such as these sarms seems counterproductive during pct even with the nolvadex. I know that sarms don’t shut you down as hard but wouldn’t they hinder recovery?

Also, Is what you have a long term plan of being completely off to keep gains or rather just a bridge of different things to keep what you have going into your next cycle??


I’d like to know what you do training wise as well. As I’m currently off right now and I’d be interested to know. Thanks

 

[Chados]

Well yeah it looks like a good way to keep gains. Not to hate on you, But it would make sense to keep gains if you’re running a whole different stack of sarms and peptides during the pct. what has your blood work been like if you’ve done this before??? I loved running s4 personally. Never done mk677. But running something suppressive such as these sarms seems counterproductive during pct even with the nolvadex. I know that sarms don’t shut you down as hard but wouldn’t they hinder recovery?

Also, Is what you have a long term plan of being completely off to keep gains or rather just a bridge of different things to keep what you have going into your next cycle??


I’d like to know what you do training wise as well. As I’m currently off right now and I’d be interested to know. Thanks

Okey so normally a pct is 4 weeks. The idea is to run the serm during the end of the sarms but also solo during pct with hence the 6 weeks or even 7. I also mention you can start the nolvadex earlier.

An example would be that test enthanate is out of your body at week 14. I wanna run the sarm all the way to 14 but I want the (serm) to start working before everything is out of my body. I'll start the serm at week 11 let's say and run it all the way until week 16. I can stop the Sarm at week 13 as mentioned and have 3 weeks. This will give me 3 weeks just to clear the sarms which are very little suppressive.

My recovery has been good and I stopped the sarms at week 13 and ran pct through weeks 10-17 giving me 4 whole weeks with no gear in my body. I did do bloods and had no significant changes compared to other cycles. Note I also went low on the gear, far under a gram.

I don't do bridges. I stop I recover and start again. I have never cruised in my life. I don't do more than two cycles a year.

I am at the peek of my for lack of better words (carrier) and my diet and training is far beyond what it was even two years ago so keeping gains aren't hard for me anymore. I walk around at the same bodyfat year round give or take and my weight doesn't change if I don't want it to change and that's mostly on gear. Gym 5 times a week, I do cardio in some shape of form like wrestling, running, soccer sometimes and even ice skating. I try to do it 3 times a week.


As far as me changing my body I guess was the question. I'm quite happy where I'm at and as I said when and if I do a cycle I will if I know myself right do a clean bulk with the same diet, add 20lbs from 190 to 210 then slowly fall down to 195-200 and stay at the same body percentage I am now. Thing is I don't have the need to be bigger so well see.

 

[Borashi]

Well said... Set your body goals, be realistic, realize consistency is key to being successful with a focus on recovery. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, maybe 2 years from now, I'll hit my goals, which is to maintain at mid 190s, vs. where I sit now, 182. It's more than a #s game, you have to have desire beyond aesthetic reasons to stay motivated. I have that desire based on others telling me I can't do it. The doubters, haters, I use to motivate me to push hard in the gym. I'll always be a student of the Iron game, I love the discipline, the results, and the attention. Feels good to walk around strong feeding your body the right nutrition, while looking around and noticing all the lazy ignorant unmotivated peeps that look weak and are happy with their appearance. Not to sound shallow. Lifting has decreased my anxiety, depression, I sleep better and it helps deal with my stress. Without lifting I'd be lost, and average. I refuse to surrender to a life of Average. I want to stand out in a crowd. As Henry Rollins said The Iron will always kick you the real deal, it never betrays me.

 

[Jinsun]

So you are basically saying take orals untill esters clear out... I tried something similar but with 50mg var and 20mg dbol. After I stopped with test c I continued only with those orals. Also took 20mg tamox and 50mg clomid. Did bloods after 2 weeks of this and was still fully shutdown. Test c was only 100mg last two weeks, so it was more or less out of my system by day 7. Recovery could have started thus even before. Also started taking tamox 1 or 2 weeks (cant remmember any more) before all of this, while still on test.

So my point beeing is that it's a lot harder to start recovering if you still have androgens in you system even so if they are less suppressive. Btw osta shut me down 100% in 5 weeks time. I know var and dbol aren't sarms, but I think it's still a usefull example.

Also, test e/c have a 5.5 day half life. So if you dose test low the last two weeks of the cycle you can start recovering in 7 days or less.

Also the best thing hands down for keeping gains in pct and afterwards are peptides. Cjc1295dac can raise your igf1 far in 500's. This would produce gains all in by it self and is not suppressive at all.

So to modulate your proposition and to eliminate sarms, which are faked way to much to consider really taking them, I would do it like this:

1 - 12 Test e/c @500mg
12 - 14 Test e/c @ 150mg
10 - 14 var or tbol or any other non arometising short half life compound
10 -> Cjc1295dac @4mg e5d from 10th week and till next cycle if you can afford it or just through pct
10 -> optionally also add 25mg MK677
13 - 16 Tamox @ 20mg Starting at week 13 so it's build up in your system when androgens clear out.
14 - 17 cortisol blocker of choice if you think you need it but I wouldn't mess with them.

This is it. Peptides will do all the work, so orals aren't really needed but they are an option to keep the gains coming all the way till pct. And just to be clear, with peptides gains will keep coming in pct.
I like tapering androgenic compounds just bc of mental stability if for nothing else.

 

[Whisky]

This is by far the most effective way I've kept the gains and I'd like to share it with you guys. I don't by any means suggest this is the best way or that anyone should do this because I did it. It's just from personal experience and maybe start a discussion.

This is for advanced users and not someone running an oral cycle only.

First of all I'd like to focus on the enthanate rather than prop. This is a longer cycle with something like npp which I'm gonna use here to make It easier even if any injectible steroid would Suffice the 19 nors will make you run in to a much bigger problem so let's use that as the example.

I like to keep test lower than to avoid sides and I think it's reasonable to assume most people run test for 12 weeks and npp 8-10.

Now to the topic. There are many ways to keep muscle but any time you drop a compound regardless if test is involved you will add cortisol, you will lose the pump, the dryness etc even if its to a smaller degree you're basically already in PCT mode when having test. The enthanate ester will be leaving your body slowly during weeks 12 when you last inject and 14. People like to run a serm at week 14 because the test is out which means your body will gradually lose its power from the steroid and slowly putting you in a catabolic state.

How do we prevent this?. Many people run sarms during bridges or even pct which arguably works but everyone's different, sarms aren't always what they're said to to be and you're ultimately running in to the risk of doing more damage than good.

S4 and ostarine are arguably as good if not better than DHT to preserve muscle, granted they don't add as much muscle but thats not the goal here. The goal is to keep the gains from the npp and keep the gains from the test as good as possible. Why be 4 weeks without npp and then 2 weeks with barely any test then jump in to a catabolic state before pct?

To prevent as much damage to the hpta as possible, and get as much out of it I'll add S4 and ostarine (during cycle at week 6-14) yes 14. I want the sarms to build up but I also wanna drop them while I'm supposed to be in a catabolic state which I wont be to the same degree having the sarms, then I want to add a serm before week 14 again for catabolic reasons. I'll add this at week 11 or 10 to have at least 2-3 weeks to recover from the sarms and while test is still active so I'm not completely empty when starting pct.

A cycle would look like this

Test e 12 weeks 200mg
NPP 10 weeks 500mg
S4 50mg weeks 6-14
Ostarine 5 or 10mg (max) weeks 6-14
Nolvadex 40/40/20/20/10/10 weeks 10 or 11-16 or 17.


I also wanna add a cortisol blocker during pct like lean extreme. 1 capsule morning, one afternoon and one at night before bed. I'll run this for the 6 weeks I'm on the serm.

My diet will be higher fat lower carbs which can be the opposite during the cycle.
Omega 3s will be the main energy source.

Vitamin c 1000mg 30 min pre workout with bcaa and creatine.

An addition to this would be mk677 which I have been using.

Interesting bro. If I understand it right you are really just cushioning the transition into pct with a less suppressive compound?

I get the whole not waiting for the test e to clear the system before starting nolva or clomid, that makes sense.

Obviously you’ve run loads of cycles so I’m guessing you’ve tried without doing this as well? What level of difference have you seen?

 

[Chados]

Well said... Set your body goals, be realistic, realize consistency is key to being successful with a focus on recovery. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, maybe 2 years from now, I'll hit my goals, which is to maintain at mid 190s, vs. where I sit now, 182. It's more than a #s game, you have to have desire beyond aesthetic reasons to stay motivated. I have that desire based on others telling me I can't do it. The doubters, haters, I use to motivate me to push hard in the gym. I'll always be a student of the Iron game, I love the discipline, the results, and the attention. Feels good to walk around strong feeding your body the right nutrition, while looking around and noticing all the lazy ignorant unmotivated peeps that look weak and are happy with their appearance. Not to sound shallow. Lifting has decreased my anxiety, depression, I sleep better and it helps deal with my stress. Without lifting I'd be lost, and average. I refuse to surrender to a life of Average. I want to stand out in a crowd. As Henry Rollins said The Iron will always kick you the real deal, it never betrays me.

Happy for you man.. Keep grinding.

 

[Chados]

So you are basically saying take orals untill esters clear out... I tried something similar but with 50mg var and 20mg dbol. After I stopped with test c I continued only with those orals. Also took 20mg tamox and 50mg clomid. Did bloods after 2 weeks of this and was still fully shutdown. Test c was only 100mg last two weeks, so it was more or less out of my system by day 7. Recovery could have started thus even before. Also started taking tamox 1 or 2 weeks (cant remmember any more) before all of this, while still on test.

So my point beeing is that it's a lot harder to start recovering if you still have androgens in you system even so if they are less suppressive. Btw osta shut me down 100% in 5 weeks time. I know var and dbol aren't sarms, but I think it's still a usefull example.

Also, test e/c have a 5.5 day half life. So if you dose test low the last two weeks of the cycle you can start recovering in 7 days or less.

Also the best thing hands down for keeping gains in pct and afterwards are peptides. Cjc1295dac can raise your igf1 far in 500's. This would produce gains all in by it self and is not suppressive at all.

So to modulate your proposition and to eliminate sarms, which are faked way to much to consider really taking them, I would do it like this:

1 - 12 Test e/c @500mg
12 - 14 Test e/c @ 150mg
10 - 14 var or tbol or any other non arometising short half life compound
10 -> Cjc1295dac @4mg e5d from 10th week and till next cycle if you can afford it or just through pct
10 -> optionally also add 25mg MK677
13 - 16 Tamox @ 20mg Starting at week 13 so it's build up in your system when androgens clear out.
14 - 17 cortisol blocker of choice if you think you need it but I wouldn't mess with them.

This is it. Peptides will do all the work, so orals aren't really needed but they are an option to keep the gains coming all the way till pct. And just to be clear, with peptides gains will keep coming in pct.
I like tapering androgenic compounds just bc of mental stability if for nothing else.

I want the orals to clear the system around the same time the testosteron clears. Normally you start pct about 10 days after last injection. Did you run pct 4 weeks that time? Dbol and var can't be compared with either S4 or ostarine and especially with ostarine dosed that low. Regarding your bloods I'm confident enough to say you didn't get real ostarine or something else shut you down. Around 40% of all sarms are fake according to ncbi studies. They either have the wrong amount or its a mix between compounds. The absolute most important thing is the control of cortisol to keep gains and while much of what I said is for hpta, the shutdown itself will cause you to add fat because of the shutdown. I want to limit the raise in cortisol and combat muscle waste while in a catabolic state compared to on cycle.

 

[Chados]

Interesting bro. If I understand it right you are really just cushioning the transition into pct with a less suppressive compound?

I get the whole not waiting for the test e to clear the system before starting nolva or clomid, that makes sense.

Obviously you’ve run loads of cycles so I’m guessing you’ve tried without doing this as well? What level of difference have you seen?

Great question I think it's fair I compare the standard protocol vs this.

I want to clear my system from any steroid when testosterone clears. The thing I want to diminish is the transition from the injection to the ester clearing. Every day you'll lose more and more effect from the steroid and cortisol will raise slowly. I want to be in PCT before the esters clear completely and extend pct beyond the average length of 4 weeks to 6 and arguably 7.

The difference I've noticed is that I end up with more definition and I don't lose weight at the same rate. I have burned a lot more fat and I don't think the suppression is as bad as it would be with dht's which arguably affected pct. I have to say having used ostarine prior that S4 seems to me be the more efficient one, not for size but for pure aesthetics.

An argument to run a serm earlier and skip the sarms is very good don't get me wrong. I just think that during a big cycle with a stronger injectible and perhaps a dht you'll add more for sure but you also have a much harder time recovering. The recovery starts when you drop the deca, tren, npp etc. Test will help but its not gonna keep it all.. Adding ostarine and especially S4 actually made me get leaner while experience no symptoms what so ever and not lose any fullness. I don't think it did much more suppression than test would alone. My cycle was tren a and I have around 4 weeks without tren before pct. A whole month without the strongest compound out there so yes you will notice the drop. Sarms just made me maintain this. I look like I'm on tren right now while being out of pct.. That has never happened before.

 

[Codybenz]

Chados what are you using as a cortisol blocker?

 

[Old Witch]

About 10 years ago what we did was take DHEA and arimidex together and taper it off while the esters clear, into pct and after. But that was part of pcting out of basically b&c for a year or more.

I've seen guys come out of pct with super hi test and their numbers stayed up.

I think there is a way to fool the body into overproducing testosterone and underproducing aromatase but maintaining stasis, at least for some months, while completely off cycle.

 

[Chados]

Chados what are you using as a cortisol blocker?

Lean extreme its called. I also maybe didn't make it clear but the vitamin c before workout is also to protect form Cortisol. It's possible on obviously to implement different foods, herbs whatever for cortisol but I don't feel that it's needed personally with my diet.

 

[Old Witch]

so, going off the same idea that adrenal hormones are different in the body from the primary sex hormones, have you tried adrenosterone (11-oxo/11-Keto-AD) as part of this ever? It's secreted by the adrenal glands only, and technically not part of the hpta feedback system, even though it's an AAS. Extremely nonsuppressive, probably the least suppressive hormone besides 7-keto (which IS part of the hpta)

People always warn against it so I haven't seen anyone do it, but I suspect that it's actually an untapped tool that can be used, because the science behind that hormone suggests as much.

 

[Chados]

so, going off the same idea that adrenal hormones are different in the body from the primary sex hormones, have you tried adrenosterone (11-oxo/11-Keto-AD) as part of this ever? It's secreted by the adrenal glands only, and technically not part of the hpta feedback system, even though it's an AAS. Extremely nonsuppressive, probably the least suppressive hormone besides 7-keto (which IS part of the hpta)

People always warn against it so I haven't seen anyone do it, but I suspect that it's actually an untapped tool that can be used, because the science behind that hormone suggests as much.

I'm familiar with it but never used it myself actually. It sounds interesting I'm gonna read up on it a little

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

recently.. actually last season, i tried to bridge out of a massive nor test cycle, trest dein and tren all included in a fairly large and long cycle 20wks.. It ended up being a disaster as the osta was not able to keep me suppressed, and unlike an 11oxo bridge, My sh17 crashed.. I had severe pain in my nutz for about a week and had to drop the osta and go into full PCT.. ime youre playing with fire and going forward i will NEVER try to bridge with a Sarm ever again. too much on the line for me to take on those kinds of issues when we know what works. just sayin when i tried to reinvent the wheel things didnt turn out as hoped or planned. im glad things faired ok for you but there are dice your rolling in this instance.

what other methods have you entertained during PCT?
discuss.

btw im not saying you are wrong in fact im the white knight who believes we are all different and no one thing works perfectly for everyone and its a must for the user to find out what works for him.

 

[Jinsun]

I want the orals to clear the system around the same time the testosteron clears. Normally you start pct about 10 days after last injection. Did you run pct 4 weeks that time? Dbol and var can't be compared with either S4 or ostarine and especially with ostarine dosed that low. Regarding your bloods I'm confident enough to say you didn't get real ostarine or something else shut you down. Around 40% of all sarms are fake according to ncbi studies. They either have the wrong amount or its a mix between compounds. The absolute most important thing is the control of cortisol to keep gains and while much of what I said is for hpta, the shutdown itself will cause you to add fat because of the shutdown. I want to limit the raise in cortisol and combat muscle waste while in a catabolic state compared to on cycle.

Yes I did a 4 week pct. Why?

I know sarms a faked, but tbh I don't think it was fake. Firstly it was from OL UK, secondly my TT was zero but my LH was basically unaffected. I did a test; I stopped the osta then at week 5, because my AST and ALT were 7x above range, and didn't use a serm for the first 7 days. Did bloods at day 7 and my TT was already half way back to normal. I got quite a lot of hardness from osta. So I think it was real. Osta shuts down, this is a know fact and it raises liver enzymes for a lot of people. I mean even in the study at 3mg some people had to be removed from the study bc it raised theirs enzymes 4x above range and thats at 3mg!

So I would never recommend sarms anymore. Either way, I don't see a reason to use sarms in your proposed cycle. Better to use orals like tbol, var,... you know what you are getting. Also as I have said, you wont start recovering with sarms so there really is no need for them. Normal aas will do just fine. Add cjc1295dac and you are basically golden!

 

[Whisky]

Yes I did a 4 week pct. Why?

I know sarms a faked, but tbh I don't think it was fake. Firstly it was from OL UK, secondly my TT was zero but my LH was basically unaffected. I did a test; I stopped the osta then at week 5, because my AST and ALT were 7x above range, and didn't use a serm for the first 7 days. Did bloods at day 7 and my TT was already half way back to normal. I got quite a lot of hardness from osta. So I think it was real. Osta shuts down, this is a know fact and it raises liver enzymes for a lot of people. I mean even in the study at 3mg some people had to be removed from the study bc it raised theirs enzymes 4x above range and thats at 3mg!

So I would never recommend sarms anymore. Either way, I don't see a reason to use sarms in your proposed cycle. Better to use orals like tbol, var,... you know what you are getting. Also as I have said, you wont start recovering with sarms so there really is no need for them. Normal aas will do just fine. Add cjc1295dac and you are basically golden!

Aren’t tbol and var (especially var) the most commonly faked orals?

Interesting point about cjc dac....I need to read up some more but what’s the suggested impact of that on cortisol in pct? Assuming you would run with mk677?

 

[Jinsun]

Aren’t tbol and var (especially var) the most commonly faked orals?

Interesting point about cjc dac....I need to read up some more but what’s the suggested impact of that on cortisol in pct? Assuming you would run with mk677?

Tbh most rated vendors don't sell faked var or primo. It just doesn't pay off to scam anymore. Imo this was a much bigger problem 10 years ago. UGL's have a reputation to keep which can get smeared quickly on the interwebs between roid users. Sarms are a different story. New sarm companies pop up and go every day + the user base for sarms is not as knowledgeable and persistent as aas users are, so there's that.

Cortisol goes up with GH yes. But you have so much gh and igf1 floating in your serum that I don't think it really matters. You can always take stuff like ashwaganda or 11oxo, etc. to block some of it, but imo this stuff is tricky and can lead to rebounds and is also a question of how much do they actually work and how much you need. It's hard to monitor cortisol with bloods. It just varies so much throught the day and so much of it depends on your life related stress...

 

[Chados]

recently.. actually last season, i tried to bridge out of a massive nor test cycle, trest dein and tren all included in a fairly large and long cycle 20wks.. It ended up being a disaster as the osta was not able to keep me suppressed, and unlike an 11oxo bridge, My sh17 crashed.. I had severe pain in my nutz for about a week and had to drop the osta and go into full PCT.. ime youre playing with fire and going forward i will NEVER try to bridge with a Sarm ever again. too much on the line for me to take on those kinds of issues when we know what works. just sayin when i tried to reinvent the wheel things didnt turn out as hoped or planned. im glad things faired ok for you but there are dice your rolling in this instance.

what other methods have you entertained during PCT?
discuss.

btw im not saying you are wrong in fact im the white knight who believes we are all different and no one thing works perfectly for everyone and its a must for the user to find out what works for him.

The problem with this is the length of the cycle, the amount of Ostarine which I assume is 25mg? The fact that it's a bridge. If you read it again youll notice that I never went on a bridge. I implemented a Sarm instead of a dht and had more weeks to recover from tren with as little suppression possible was the goal. This is not really that crazy if you think about it.. I could have added anadrol and done pretty much the same thing.

I've tried a lot of different pcts. Hcg, nolva, clomid, nolva and clomid at the same time. I think that while recovery with hpta is important its not the most important to keep your gains thats why I combat cortisol from all angles, directly target it and also keep myself full after I go off the tren for 6 weeks.

I've tried stopping two injectibles (test included) at the same time and its really hard to recover and to not lose all fullness from the 19 nor.

 

[Chados]

Yes I did a 4 week pct. Why?

I know sarms a faked, but tbh I don't think it was fake. Firstly it was from OL UK, secondly my TT was zero but my LH was basically unaffected. I did a test; I stopped the osta then at week 5, because my AST and ALT were 7x above range, and didn't use a serm for the first 7 days. Did bloods at day 7 and my TT was already half way back to normal. I got quite a lot of hardness from osta. So I think it was real. Osta shuts down, this is a know fact and it raises liver enzymes for a lot of people. I mean even in the study at 3mg some people had to be removed from the study bc it raised theirs enzymes 4x above range and thats at 3mg!

So I would never recommend sarms anymore. Either way, I don't see a reason to use sarms in your proposed cycle. Better to use orals like tbol, var,... you know what you are getting. Also as I have said, you wont start recovering with sarms so there really is no need for them. Normal aas will do just fine. Add cjc1295dac and you are basically golden!

Sure you have var and Tbol but these are also often faked and they are much stronger and will shut you down more and cause more liver stress than ostarine. A Sarm isn't supposed to do what it did to you that's all I can say. Wether science is misleading, you got something else or something else you took made it happen is really impossible for me to speculate in.

Cjc is actually something you should be careful with according to many. I remember someone dying while taking it and they stopped the production. Now that could have been something else but I'm pretty sure they have some more studying before releasing it on the market.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

T I implemented a Sarm instead of a dht and had more weeks to recover from tren with as little suppression possible was the goal. .

i totally got that in your first post. I wanted to point out that because of the lessend suppresion I wasnt able to use osta as a bridge. certainly not thinking you are doing anything wrong..
a good example is how HGP had to work on his method for taking trest. after all conventional wisdom would basically leave him with tits and milk.

i think it took him a few cycles to get things ironed out simply because what others were telling him didnt work.

 

[Chados]

i totally got that in your first post. I wanted to point out that because of the lessend suppresion I wasnt able to use osta as a bridge. certainly not thinking you are doing anything wrong..
a good example is how HGP had to work on his method for taking trest. after all conventional wisdom would basically leave him with tits and milk.

i think it took him a few cycles to get things ironed out simply because what others were telling him didnt work.

Ah got you. Yeah for sure it took me ages to find the perfect diet and the perfect cycle. You kinda have to have some unsuccessful runs before you figure it out. It's funny how you call him hgp and everyone knows who youre talking about haha. If that's not legend status I don't know.

 

[Jinsun]

Sure you have var and Tbol but these are also often faked and they are much stronger and will shut you down more and cause more liver stress than ostarine. A Sarm isn't supposed to do what it did to you that's all I can say. Wether science is misleading, you got something else or something else you took made it happen is really impossible for me to speculate in.

Cjc is actually something you should be careful with according to many. I remember someone dying while taking it and they stopped the production. Now that could have been something else but I'm pretty sure they have some more studying before releasing it on the market.

Nah man, in the study, the big one, they took 3mg of osta. A lot had elevated enzymes. Osta is stressful for the liver, period Really, look it up. The reason why this is not known so much is bc people who do sarm cycles generally don't check liver values or don't do bloods at all. Again, my LH was the same as pre cycle and I had a harder, denser look. Both of these are normal sides of osta. I don't really understand why you are so dismissive of these facts as they are all normal, proven sides of osta. Osta suppresses T production before LH falls off. You do know T production can be suppressed without LH being also suppressed? Again this is normal for Osta. Even freking Dylan G. agrees with this lol

Also I said that aas from trusted UGL's, like pharmacom, dragon pharma, etc. is imo a lot more safe then all this sarm companies who come and go all the time. You don't agree?

Also I said that you wont start recovering when on sarms and taking serm's. Don't know if you agree to this or not, you haven't mentioned it, but it doesn't really matter what you take as long as it has a short half life (measured in hours). This can be sarms or aas, even test suspesion why not... it doesn't matter as you wont start recovering with the high doses you are mentioning and probably neither with half of the doses you mentioned.

No idea about the thing you said about cjc. I haven't heard of absolutely any problems regarding the use of it. In fact there have been very very positive studies done on it. New studies. Again, you are just being dismissive. Don't want to be a prick, but do you just want your theory to be discussed and nothing else? If so, I'll stop trying to create a discourse, np mate...

 

[Chados]

Nah man, in the study, the big one, they took 3mg of osta. A lot had elevated enzymes. Osta is stressful for the liver, period Really, look it up. The reason why this is not known so much is bc people who do sarm cycles generally don't check liver values or don't do bloods at all. Again, my LH was the same as pre cycle and I had a harder, denser look. Both of these are normal sides of osta. I don't really understand why you are so dismissive of these facts as they are all normal, proven sides of osta. Osta suppresses T production before LH falls off. You do know T production can be suppressed without LH being also suppressed? Again this is normal for Osta. Even freking Dylan G. agrees with this lol

Also I said that aas from trusted UGL's, like pharmacom, dragon pharma, etc. is imo a lot more safe then all this sarm companies who come and go all the time. You don't agree?

Also I said that you wont start recovering when on sarms and taking serm's. Don't know if you agree to this or not, you haven't mentioned it, but it doesn't really matter what you take as long as it has a short half life (measured in hours). This can be sarms or aas, even test suspesion why not... it doesn't matter as you wont start recovering with the high doses you are mentioning and probably neither with half of the doses you mentioned.

No idea about the thing you said about cjc. I haven't heard of absolutely any problems regarding the use of it. In fact there have been very very positive studies done on it. New studies. Again, you are just being dismissive. Don't want to be a prick, but do you just want your theory to be discussed and nothing else? If so, I'll stop trying to create a discourse, np mate...

No i am aware of it elevating enzymes but that doesn't equal (damage) and wether its damaging isn't my concern. We know it's less damaging than aas by a long slide. As far as suppression goes yes it is suppressive but not to the extinct of aas. You can completely ruing the whole idea with sarms by using it as a muscle building supplement which is really just a positive outcome from the sarms. The main idea is to preserve muscle and that's what aas is also used for hence the creation of sarms to have an healthier medication.

Now to the cjc. I'm just saying that I'm personally not convinced that it's studied enough that doesn't mean it isn't. There are many ways to do this and this is just my approach Ive used with success. I don't think I have been dismissive any more than you are. You are convinced it's more damaging than it is because of elevated enzymes. We can agree to disagree I don't care but you make it sound like I have to trust one guy posting liver enzymes as a proof and that's too much to ask. Mike Arnold came buy a few days ago and said that even training can elevate enzymes sky-high so it's a little gambling to say it's form the osta especially when we don't know what's in the ostarine capsules.

Most of the time, elevated liver enzymes don't signal a chronic, serious liver problems.

 

[Jinsun]

Infact we have no idea how sarms effect liver health. No idea at all. We know short term oral aas don't cause permanent liver damage and in normal doses basically only stress the liver.

Regarding liver enzymes: they get elevated when toxic bile accumulates in the liver. This accumulation of toxic bile can then damage liver cells. Whille liver enzymes are not an indicator of liver damage, other factors like ggt for example are an indicator of that, they for sure are an indicator of liver stress which does lead to liver damage eventually. So my point beeing, I would rather take something that stresses the liver less and it's long term sides are well known. Much rather take 10mg's of SD for example or just tbol, var, dbol...

Kudos if you have done thiss successfully, it's nice to find something that works for you and can replicate the results each time.

 

[Chados]

Infact we have no idea how sarms effect liver health. No idea at all. We know short term oral aas don't cause permanent liver damage and in normal doses basically only stress the liver.

Regarding liver enzymes: they get elevated when toxic bile accumulates in the liver. This accumulation of toxic bile can then damage liver cells. Whille liver enzymes are not an indicator of liver damage, other factors like ggt for example are an indicator of that, they for sure are an indicator of liver stress which does lead to liver damage eventually. So my point beeing, I would rather take something that stresses the liver less and it's long term sides are well known. Much rather take 10mg's of SD for example or just tbol, var, dbol...

Kudos if you have done thiss successfully, it's nice to find something that works for you and can replicate the results each time.

We do know how toxic they are. We don't know long term sides though you're correct. At the same time there are many new things out like trest that people take but we have not much information about long term effects. I think in general the long term sides are studied with aas as a whole and not a specific steroid as much. To each their own right? I don't think anyone that fears a steroid or Sarm should take it. There's nothing worse than being on a cycle and paranoid.

Thanks. Yeah I think it's different for everyone though. Diet is the far most important thing and I don't think this would have worked for me 5 years ago. Most people who run cycles will fall back quite a lot when coming off. It takes time to figure everything out and some can do it really fast while others take years to really get it.

 

[Jinsun]

To each their own right?

Exactly. We are all our own doctors at this. We all have our own health standards. I'm more on the conservative side for instance, and I do tons of bloods and check stuff all the time. Most don't check anything. We that are here on these forums, discussing stuff are like, I don't know... 5% of all that use gear? Like just talking to people in the gym that use gear, I sound like a total nerd. People don't even PCT for instance...

Thanks. Yeah I think it's different for everyone though. Diet is the far most important thing and I don't think this would have worked for me 5 years ago. Most people who run cycles will fall back quite a lot when coming off. It takes time to figure everything out and some can do it really fast while others take years to really get it.

I think that PCTing as fast possible is most important. Keeping your food intake high while in PCT and keeping a close eye on training volume and intensity is also very important. You don't want to go into a deload and you don't want to overreach in the first two weeks of PCT. Also you don't want to extend volume when on gear in proportion to when off gear to much: if you cut training volume in half when off gear, this alone will make you loose some muscle. Also tapering of androgenic compounds like test, dbol, etc. is a good idea as you don't experience such a low in PCT. Also not using Clomid in PCT helps a LOT. I'm sure that part of the reason people hate PCT so much is in part to high doses of Clomid. Just using tamox or torem will make PCT for most a lot easier. And let's not forget HCG at least 3 to 4 weeks of use before PCT if not trough the whole cycle. Bridging with short esters is imo also a good idea. In fact I've just done it two months ago with dbol and var.

Follow this rules and I think you are gtg!

 

[Borashi]

Great discussion. I feel SARMs have a place in bodybuilding, really depends on what your goals are. Everyone reacts differently to compounds, that is the problem trying to replicate someone's cycle log results. You could do everything the same and still have different results. I feel a lot of people try SARMs before they're ready or educated enough on them, to where they screwup their own bodies. This is absolutely their own fault for not designing a proper protocol with PCT. I get pissed thinking about all these health store reps that give information to make a sale that isn't true like SARMs don't need a PCT or won't suppress. It's laughable. In terms of the bad reactions some have to SARMs. Could be they didn't dose properly ie to high a dosage or they got a spiked or laced or under dosed SARM. Just to many variables to write off SARMs completely, if you get legit stuff, your diet is in check, and have goals, you can put on muscle and recover quickly. It comes down to doing what you feel is best and listening to your body.